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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
He was superb in 2008 and 2010. Take out his debut season and he had superb race pace in two out of his three other seasons. He was a great racer as well. I think time is effecting some people's memories.


Time? I had this opinion while watching him drive, not something I formed today. I could never understand why he was so overrated. He was a solid avg. driver. Just like I was at a loss to figure out why Bottas was so highly praised in 2014.

I've always considered Kubica to be the most overrated driver during my whole time watching F1 (20 years now). He should've done to NH what SV did to Webber, LH just did to Bottas, or SV/FA to KR. Not to mention, like I already said, he had no killer instinct.

Why's he rated so highly will always remain a mystery to me.


His 08 season against Heidfeld was as good as Vettel's 09 against Webber and better than his 2010. This is when both drivers would have had a similar amount of experience.

And Nick Heidfeld himself beat Mark Webber. So why anyone would use Vettel v Webber as a yardstick to measure Kubica is puzzling

Webber dominated Heidfeld in qualifying though and we are going to use the word beaten because he happened to score a few more points, let's not forget what Vettel did to Webber.

Ha I'll remember that one

Quick Nick was on the podium 3 times, Webber only made it once (and Nick finished ahead of him there too). But of course in another thread you put qualys ahead of podiums - the result that gives trophies and points

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:55 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Webber dominated Heidfeld in qualifying though and we are going to use the word beaten because he happened to score a few more points, let's not forget what Vettel did to Webber.

Coming from a Hamilton fan? A few more points is better than more second places, isn't it?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:58 pm 
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in 2010 with both having a similar level of experience Kubica was every bit as good as Vettel.

Vettel went on to improve. Obviously we don't know if Kubica would have.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:20 am 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Time? I had this opinion while watching him drive, not something I formed today. I could never understand why he was so overrated. He was a solid avg. driver. Just like I was at a loss to figure out why Bottas was so highly praised in 2014.

I've always considered Kubica to be the most overrated driver during my whole time watching F1 (20 years now). He should've done to NH what SV did to Webber, LH just did to Bottas, or SV/FA to KR. Not to mention, like I already said, he had no killer instinct.

Why's he rated so highly will always remain a mystery to me.


His 08 season against Heidfeld was as good as Vettel's 09 against Webber and better than his 2010. This is when both drivers would have had a similar amount of experience.

And Nick Heidfeld himself beat Mark Webber. So why anyone would use Vettel v Webber as a yardstick to measure Kubica is puzzling

Webber dominated Heidfeld in qualifying though and we are going to use the word beaten because he happened to score a few more points, let's not forget what Vettel did to Webber.

Ha I'll remember that one

Quick Nick was on the podium 3 times, Webber only made it once (and Nick finished ahead of him there too). But of course in another thread you put qualys ahead of podiums - the result that gives trophies and points

Heidfeld scored 4 more points than Webber and was also ahead 4-3 when they both finished, Webber dominated Heidfeld in qualifying and in the race would storm off after the leaders, this was the season that tyre changes were not allowed and Webber would overuse his tyres then steady Nick would often catch him late in the race and sometimes pass him.

Generally speaking overall it was quite close between them so that would put Webber not that far off Kubica's level, but like I said we saw what Vettel did to Webber.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:23 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Webber dominated Heidfeld in qualifying though and we are going to use the word beaten because he happened to score a few more points, let's not forget what Vettel did to Webber.

Coming from a Hamilton fan? A few more points is better than more second places, isn't it?

In terms of were you finish in the WDC but not always in terms of who may have been the better driver.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:35 am 
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IMO...

Tier 1 - Superstars - Vettel, Senna, Lewis, Alonso, Hakkinen etc.

Tier 2 - Top Drivers - Well worth a WDC in the right car - Button, Kimi, Montoya, Rosberg, Hill, Kubica

Tier 3 - A bit below that, not really WDC material but good for a few wins - Webber, Rubens, JV (even if he did win), DC, Fisi, Massa (for 3 years) Heidfeld etc.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:45 am 
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Banana Man wrote:
IMO...

Tier 1 - Superstars - Vettel, Senna, Lewis, Alonso, Hakkinen etc.

Tier 2 - Top Drivers - Well worth a WDC in the right car - Button, Kimi, Montoya, Rosberg, Hill, Kubica

Tier 3 - A bit below that, not really WDC material but good for a few wins - Webber, Rubens, JV (even if he did win), DC, Fisi, Massa (for 3 years) Heidfeld etc.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
His 08 season against Heidfeld was as good as Vettel's 09 against Webber and better than his 2010. This is when both drivers would have had a similar amount of experience.

And Nick Heidfeld himself beat Mark Webber. So why anyone would use Vettel v Webber as a yardstick to measure Kubica is puzzling

Webber dominated Heidfeld in qualifying though and we are going to use the word beaten because he happened to score a few more points, let's not forget what Vettel did to Webber.

Ha I'll remember that one

Quick Nick was on the podium 3 times, Webber only made it once (and Nick finished ahead of him there too). But of course in another thread you put qualys ahead of podiums - the result that gives trophies and points

Heidfeld scored 4 more points than Webber and was also ahead 4-3 when they both finished, Webber dominated Heidfeld in qualifying and in the race would storm off after the leaders, this was the season that tyre changes were not allowed and Webber would overuse his tyres then steady Nick would often catch him late in the race and sometimes pass him.

Generally speaking overall it was quite close between them so that would put Webber not that far off Kubica's level, but like I said we saw what Vettel did to Webber.

So... Heidfeld drove better races than Webber. What good is qualy if you can't convert it?

I wouldn't claim Webber was ever Vettel's equal but I also wouldn't ever use Vettel v Webber as a reference for Kubica v Heidfeld. In head-to-heads between all those drivers (your preferred method of analysis), Webber comes last

Back on topic, this article reports Kubica was faster than di Resta during the Williams test:
http://www.thedrive.com/start-finish/15 ... pectations
Where are you hearing that the opposite was true?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:20 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
IMO...

Tier 1 - Superstars - Vettel, Senna, Lewis, Alonso, Hakkinen etc.

Tier 2 - Top Drivers - Well worth a WDC in the right car - Button, Kimi, Montoya, Rosberg, Hill, Kubica

Tier 3 - A bit below that, not really WDC material but good for a few wins - Webber, Rubens, JV (even if he did win), DC, Fisi, Massa (for 3 years) Heidfeld etc.

I can't find too much to argue with there.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:35 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
IMO...

Tier 1 - Superstars - Vettel, Senna, Lewis, Alonso, Hakkinen etc.

Tier 2 - Top Drivers - Well worth a WDC in the right car - Button, Kimi, Montoya, Rosberg, Hill, Kubica

Tier 3 - A bit below that, not really WDC material but good for a few wins - Webber, Rubens, JV (even if he did win), DC, Fisi, Massa (for 3 years) Heidfeld etc.


Kubica is tier 3.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:24 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
And Nick Heidfeld himself beat Mark Webber. So why anyone would use Vettel v Webber as a yardstick to measure Kubica is puzzling

Webber dominated Heidfeld in qualifying though and we are going to use the word beaten because he happened to score a few more points, let's not forget what Vettel did to Webber.

Ha I'll remember that one

Quick Nick was on the podium 3 times, Webber only made it once (and Nick finished ahead of him there too). But of course in another thread you put qualys ahead of podiums - the result that gives trophies and points

Heidfeld scored 4 more points than Webber and was also ahead 4-3 when they both finished, Webber dominated Heidfeld in qualifying and in the race would storm off after the leaders, this was the season that tyre changes were not allowed and Webber would overuse his tyres then steady Nick would often catch him late in the race and sometimes pass him.

Generally speaking overall it was quite close between them so that would put Webber not that far off Kubica's level, but like I said we saw what Vettel did to Webber.

So... Heidfeld drove better races than Webber. What good is qualy if you can't convert it?

I wouldn't claim Webber was ever Vettel's equal but I also wouldn't ever use Vettel v Webber as a reference for Kubica v Heidfeld. In head-to-heads between all those drivers (your preferred method of analysis), Webber comes last

Back on topic, this article reports Kubica was faster than di Resta during the Williams test:
http://www.thedrive.com/start-finish/15 ... pectations
Where are you hearing that the opposite was true?

Heidfeld beat Kubica in 2007 and 2009 more convincingly than he beat Webber in 2005 which was marginal, although like has been said Kubica was generally outstanding in 2008, here is an overview of their 3 years together:-

WDC - Heidfeld 2-1
Points - Heidfeld 140-131
Qualifying - Kubica 24-24 (average gap 0.04s)
Podiums - Kubica 8 (1 win) - 7
Head to head - Kubica 18-17

We remember the years were Kubica was outstanding, 2008 and 2010, but forget the 2007 and 2009 years, Kubica was a driver that needed the car to work for him, he wouldn't be as adaptable a driver like Alonso or Hamilton.

Regarding the report that's opposite to what I heard and I hope it's true.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:07 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Webber dominated Heidfeld in qualifying though and we are going to use the word beaten because he happened to score a few more points, let's not forget what Vettel did to Webber.

Ha I'll remember that one

Quick Nick was on the podium 3 times, Webber only made it once (and Nick finished ahead of him there too). But of course in another thread you put qualys ahead of podiums - the result that gives trophies and points

Heidfeld scored 4 more points than Webber and was also ahead 4-3 when they both finished, Webber dominated Heidfeld in qualifying and in the race would storm off after the leaders, this was the season that tyre changes were not allowed and Webber would overuse his tyres then steady Nick would often catch him late in the race and sometimes pass him.

Generally speaking overall it was quite close between them so that would put Webber not that far off Kubica's level, but like I said we saw what Vettel did to Webber.

So... Heidfeld drove better races than Webber. What good is qualy if you can't convert it?

I wouldn't claim Webber was ever Vettel's equal but I also wouldn't ever use Vettel v Webber as a reference for Kubica v Heidfeld. In head-to-heads between all those drivers (your preferred method of analysis), Webber comes last

Back on topic, this article reports Kubica was faster than di Resta during the Williams test:
http://www.thedrive.com/start-finish/15 ... pectations
Where are you hearing that the opposite was true?

Heidfeld beat Kubica in 2007 and 2009 more convincingly than he beat Webber in 2005 which was marginal, although like has been said Kubica was generally outstanding in 2008, here is an overview of their 3 years together:-

WDC - Heidfeld 2-1
Points - Heidfeld 140-131
Qualifying - Kubica 24-24 (average gap 0.04s)
Podiums - Kubica 8 (1 win) - 7
Head to head - Kubica 18-17

We remember the years were Kubica was outstanding, 2008 and 2010, but forget the 2007 and 2009 years, Kubica was a driver that needed the car to work for him, he wouldn't be as adaptable a driver like Alonso or Hamilton.

Regarding the report that's opposite to what I heard and I hope it's true.

There's nothing there that I would argue with. Personally I've always felt Heidfeld was underrated. The only teammate that ever outright whooped him was Heinz-Harald Frentzen (and I'd be ok with considering Alesi during that disaster Prost season). And that's a teammate list including Kubica, Raikkonen, Massa, Villeneuve, Webber - a list of title winners and title contenders

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:27 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Ha I'll remember that one

Quick Nick was on the podium 3 times, Webber only made it once (and Nick finished ahead of him there too). But of course in another thread you put qualys ahead of podiums - the result that gives trophies and points

Heidfeld scored 4 more points than Webber and was also ahead 4-3 when they both finished, Webber dominated Heidfeld in qualifying and in the race would storm off after the leaders, this was the season that tyre changes were not allowed and Webber would overuse his tyres then steady Nick would often catch him late in the race and sometimes pass him.

Generally speaking overall it was quite close between them so that would put Webber not that far off Kubica's level, but like I said we saw what Vettel did to Webber.

So... Heidfeld drove better races than Webber. What good is qualy if you can't convert it?

I wouldn't claim Webber was ever Vettel's equal but I also wouldn't ever use Vettel v Webber as a reference for Kubica v Heidfeld. In head-to-heads between all those drivers (your preferred method of analysis), Webber comes last

Back on topic, this article reports Kubica was faster than di Resta during the Williams test:
http://www.thedrive.com/start-finish/15 ... pectations
Where are you hearing that the opposite was true?

Heidfeld beat Kubica in 2007 and 2009 more convincingly than he beat Webber in 2005 which was marginal, although like has been said Kubica was generally outstanding in 2008, here is an overview of their 3 years together:-

WDC - Heidfeld 2-1
Points - Heidfeld 140-131
Qualifying - Kubica 24-24 (average gap 0.04s)
Podiums - Kubica 8 (1 win) - 7
Head to head - Kubica 18-17

We remember the years were Kubica was outstanding, 2008 and 2010, but forget the 2007 and 2009 years, Kubica was a driver that needed the car to work for him, he wouldn't be as adaptable a driver like Alonso or Hamilton.

Regarding the report that's opposite to what I heard and I hope it's true.

There's nothing there that I would argue with. Personally I've always felt Heidfeld was underrated. The only teammate that ever outright whooped him was Heinz-Harald Frentzen (and I'd be ok with considering Alesi during that disaster Prost season). And that's a teammate list including Kubica, Raikkonen, Massa, Villeneuve, Webber - a list of title winners and title contenders

Which is basically a list of tier 2 drivers though?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:44 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
IMO...

Tier 1 - Superstars - Vettel, Senna, Lewis, Alonso, Hakkinen etc.

Tier 2 - Top Drivers - Well worth a WDC in the right car - Button, Kimi, Montoya, Rosberg, Hill, Kubica

Tier 3 - A bit below that, not really WDC material but good for a few wins - Webber, Rubens, JV (even if he did win), DC, Fisi, Massa (for 3 years) Heidfeld etc.

I think Rubens proved to the entire world that he had everything necessary to win championships but was held at bay by Ferrari. Had Michael not been the guy in the other car for several years, he would have become a multiple time champion so I think you have him lumped into the wrong group.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Heidfeld scored 4 more points than Webber and was also ahead 4-3 when they both finished, Webber dominated Heidfeld in qualifying and in the race would storm off after the leaders, this was the season that tyre changes were not allowed and Webber would overuse his tyres then steady Nick would often catch him late in the race and sometimes pass him.

Generally speaking overall it was quite close between them so that would put Webber not that far off Kubica's level, but like I said we saw what Vettel did to Webber.

So... Heidfeld drove better races than Webber. What good is qualy if you can't convert it?

I wouldn't claim Webber was ever Vettel's equal but I also wouldn't ever use Vettel v Webber as a reference for Kubica v Heidfeld. In head-to-heads between all those drivers (your preferred method of analysis), Webber comes last

Back on topic, this article reports Kubica was faster than di Resta during the Williams test:
http://www.thedrive.com/start-finish/15 ... pectations
Where are you hearing that the opposite was true?

Heidfeld beat Kubica in 2007 and 2009 more convincingly than he beat Webber in 2005 which was marginal, although like has been said Kubica was generally outstanding in 2008, here is an overview of their 3 years together:-

WDC - Heidfeld 2-1
Points - Heidfeld 140-131
Qualifying - Kubica 24-24 (average gap 0.04s)
Podiums - Kubica 8 (1 win) - 7
Head to head - Kubica 18-17

We remember the years were Kubica was outstanding, 2008 and 2010, but forget the 2007 and 2009 years, Kubica was a driver that needed the car to work for him, he wouldn't be as adaptable a driver like Alonso or Hamilton.

Regarding the report that's opposite to what I heard and I hope it's true.

There's nothing there that I would argue with. Personally I've always felt Heidfeld was underrated. The only teammate that ever outright whooped him was Heinz-Harald Frentzen (and I'd be ok with considering Alesi during that disaster Prost season). And that's a teammate list including Kubica, Raikkonen, Massa, Villeneuve, Webber - a list of title winners and title contenders

Which is basically a list of tier 2 drivers though?

So? Doesn't mean Heidfeld wasn't underrated. 52 race wins between those 5 drivers and Nick outscored them all

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:53 pm 
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Sergey Sirotkin to drive the other test day for Williams at Abu Dhabi. So that's the end of the shootouts, which says to me that Kubica is a done deal

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13318 ... est-lineup

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:56 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
So... Heidfeld drove better races than Webber. What good is qualy if you can't convert it?

I wouldn't claim Webber was ever Vettel's equal but I also wouldn't ever use Vettel v Webber as a reference for Kubica v Heidfeld. In head-to-heads between all those drivers (your preferred method of analysis), Webber comes last

Back on topic, this article reports Kubica was faster than di Resta during the Williams test:
http://www.thedrive.com/start-finish/15 ... pectations
Where are you hearing that the opposite was true?

Heidfeld beat Kubica in 2007 and 2009 more convincingly than he beat Webber in 2005 which was marginal, although like has been said Kubica was generally outstanding in 2008, here is an overview of their 3 years together:-

WDC - Heidfeld 2-1
Points - Heidfeld 140-131
Qualifying - Kubica 24-24 (average gap 0.04s)
Podiums - Kubica 8 (1 win) - 7
Head to head - Kubica 18-17

We remember the years were Kubica was outstanding, 2008 and 2010, but forget the 2007 and 2009 years, Kubica was a driver that needed the car to work for him, he wouldn't be as adaptable a driver like Alonso or Hamilton.

Regarding the report that's opposite to what I heard and I hope it's true.

There's nothing there that I would argue with. Personally I've always felt Heidfeld was underrated. The only teammate that ever outright whooped him was Heinz-Harald Frentzen (and I'd be ok with considering Alesi during that disaster Prost season). And that's a teammate list including Kubica, Raikkonen, Massa, Villeneuve, Webber - a list of title winners and title contenders

Which is basically a list of tier 2 drivers though?

So? Doesn't mean Heidfeld wasn't underrated. 52 race wins between those 5 drivers and Nick outscored them all

Well I believe that we are trying to pigeon hole Kubica by comparing him to Heidfeld, not tier 1, more tier 2 perhaps?

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:57 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Sergey Sirotkin to drive the other test day for Williams at Abu Dhabi. So that's the end of the shootouts, which says to me that Kubica is a done deal

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13318 ... est-lineup

Yeah it's looking that way.

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2014: Champion
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2017: 9th Place

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:03 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Heidfeld beat Kubica in 2007 and 2009 more convincingly than he beat Webber in 2005 which was marginal, although like has been said Kubica was generally outstanding in 2008, here is an overview of their 3 years together:-

WDC - Heidfeld 2-1
Points - Heidfeld 140-131
Qualifying - Kubica 24-24 (average gap 0.04s)
Podiums - Kubica 8 (1 win) - 7
Head to head - Kubica 18-17

We remember the years were Kubica was outstanding, 2008 and 2010, but forget the 2007 and 2009 years, Kubica was a driver that needed the car to work for him, he wouldn't be as adaptable a driver like Alonso or Hamilton.

Regarding the report that's opposite to what I heard and I hope it's true.



2007 was Kubica's rookie season.

Pretty much every driver looses there rookie season when against an experienced team mate.

Bottas is the only current driver to outscore their experienced team mate in their rookie year.

So really we are just looking at 2009.

Take out the rookie year and you have -

WDC 1-1
Points - 92 - 79 Kubica
Quali - 23 - 12 Kubica
Podiums - 8-5 Kubica
Wins - 1-0 Kubica
Head to Head - 15 - 11 Kubica

So yes, Heidfeld was better in Kubica's rookie year but the stats are one sided after that.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:14 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Heidfeld beat Kubica in 2007 and 2009 more convincingly than he beat Webber in 2005 which was marginal, although like has been said Kubica was generally outstanding in 2008, here is an overview of their 3 years together:-

WDC - Heidfeld 2-1
Points - Heidfeld 140-131
Qualifying - Kubica 24-24 (average gap 0.04s)
Podiums - Kubica 8 (1 win) - 7
Head to head - Kubica 18-17

We remember the years were Kubica was outstanding, 2008 and 2010, but forget the 2007 and 2009 years, Kubica was a driver that needed the car to work for him, he wouldn't be as adaptable a driver like Alonso or Hamilton.

Regarding the report that's opposite to what I heard and I hope it's true.



2007 was Kubica's rookie season.

Pretty much every driver looses there rookie season when against an experienced team mate.

Bottas is the only current driver to outscore their experienced team mate in their rookie year.

So really we are just looking at 2009.

Take out the rookie year and you have -

WDC 1-1
Points - 92 - 79 Kubica
Quali - 23 - 12 Kubica
Podiums - 8-5 Kubica
Wins - 1-0 Kubica
Head to Head - 15 - 11 Kubica

So yes, Heidfeld was better in Kubica's rookie year but the stats are one sided after that.

Then they are out weighed by the 2008 season when Kubica was excellent, the following season Heidfeld scored more points, was better in qualifying and was better in the head to head match up.

Also I don't know how you define your stats in view to race fueled qualifying, weather conditions and technical issues, my qualifying reads 20-14 for Kubica, head to head 14-11 Kubica.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:21 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
IMO...

Tier 1 - Superstars - Vettel, Senna, Lewis, Alonso, Hakkinen etc.

Tier 2 - Top Drivers - Well worth a WDC in the right car - Button, Kimi, Montoya, Rosberg, Hill, Kubica

Tier 3 - A bit below that, not really WDC material but good for a few wins - Webber, Rubens, JV (even if he did win), DC, Fisi, Massa (for 3 years) Heidfeld etc.

I think Rubens proved to the entire world that he had everything necessary to win championships but was held at bay by Ferrari. Had Michael not been the guy in the other car for several years, he would have become a multiple time champion so I think you have him lumped into the wrong group.


WTF? When and how did he prove to the entire world that he could win WDCs? And you mean like it was Button instead of Michael in the other car, he'd have won the championship?

This is the strangest post I've read on PF1 in a long time.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:24 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Heidfeld beat Kubica in 2007 and 2009 more convincingly than he beat Webber in 2005 which was marginal, although like has been said Kubica was generally outstanding in 2008, here is an overview of their 3 years together:-

WDC - Heidfeld 2-1
Points - Heidfeld 140-131
Qualifying - Kubica 24-24 (average gap 0.04s)
Podiums - Kubica 8 (1 win) - 7
Head to head - Kubica 18-17

We remember the years were Kubica was outstanding, 2008 and 2010, but forget the 2007 and 2009 years, Kubica was a driver that needed the car to work for him, he wouldn't be as adaptable a driver like Alonso or Hamilton.

Regarding the report that's opposite to what I heard and I hope it's true.



2007 was Kubica's rookie season.

Pretty much every driver looses there rookie season when against an experienced team mate.

Bottas is the only current driver to outscore their experienced team mate in their rookie year.

So really we are just looking at 2009.

Take out the rookie year and you have -

WDC 1-1
Points - 92 - 79 Kubica
Quali - 23 - 12 Kubica
Podiums - 8-5 Kubica
Wins - 1-0 Kubica
Head to Head - 15 - 11 Kubica

So yes, Heidfeld was better in Kubica's rookie year but the stats are one sided after that.


That looks like a driver slightly better than Heidfeld. Not something I'd put on my resume. Also, if you're going to excuse RK for the rookie season, you must excuse NH for his twilight seasons. Can't have it both ways. So, basically, he was Heidfeld 2.0.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:24 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Heidfeld beat Kubica in 2007 and 2009 more convincingly than he beat Webber in 2005 which was marginal, although like has been said Kubica was generally outstanding in 2008, here is an overview of their 3 years together:-

WDC - Heidfeld 2-1
Points - Heidfeld 140-131
Qualifying - Kubica 24-24 (average gap 0.04s)
Podiums - Kubica 8 (1 win) - 7
Head to head - Kubica 18-17

We remember the years were Kubica was outstanding, 2008 and 2010, but forget the 2007 and 2009 years, Kubica was a driver that needed the car to work for him, he wouldn't be as adaptable a driver like Alonso or Hamilton.

Regarding the report that's opposite to what I heard and I hope it's true.



2007 was Kubica's rookie season.

Pretty much every driver looses there rookie season when against an experienced team mate.

Bottas is the only current driver to outscore their experienced team mate in their rookie year.

So really we are just looking at 2009.

Take out the rookie year and you have -

WDC 1-1
Points - 92 - 79 Kubica
Quali - 23 - 12 Kubica
Podiums - 8-5 Kubica
Wins - 1-0 Kubica
Head to Head - 15 - 11 Kubica

So yes, Heidfeld was better in Kubica's rookie year but the stats are one sided after that.


That looks like a driver slightly better than Heidfeld. Not something I'd put on my resume. Also, if you're going to excuse RK for the rookie season, you must excuse NH for his twilight seasons. Can't have it both ways. So, basically, he was Heidfeld 2.0.


What twilight seasons? Heidfeld was 31 at the start of 2009. Younger than Hamilton is now.

He was hardly diminishing. But if you don't want to count 2009 then don't.

What was wrong with Heidfeld anyway? Hardly anybody could beat him over a long career.


Last edited by mikeyg123 on Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Heidfeld beat Kubica in 2007 and 2009 more convincingly than he beat Webber in 2005 which was marginal, although like has been said Kubica was generally outstanding in 2008, here is an overview of their 3 years together:-

WDC - Heidfeld 2-1
Points - Heidfeld 140-131
Qualifying - Kubica 24-24 (average gap 0.04s)
Podiums - Kubica 8 (1 win) - 7
Head to head - Kubica 18-17

We remember the years were Kubica was outstanding, 2008 and 2010, but forget the 2007 and 2009 years, Kubica was a driver that needed the car to work for him, he wouldn't be as adaptable a driver like Alonso or Hamilton.

Regarding the report that's opposite to what I heard and I hope it's true.



2007 was Kubica's rookie season.

Pretty much every driver looses there rookie season when against an experienced team mate.

Bottas is the only current driver to outscore their experienced team mate in their rookie year.

So really we are just looking at 2009.

Take out the rookie year and you have -

WDC 1-1
Points - 92 - 79 Kubica
Quali - 23 - 12 Kubica
Podiums - 8-5 Kubica
Wins - 1-0 Kubica
Head to Head - 15 - 11 Kubica

So yes, Heidfeld was better in Kubica's rookie year but the stats are one sided after that.

Then they are out weighed by the 2008 season when Kubica was excellent, the following season Heidfeld scored more points, was better in qualifying and was better in the head to head match up.

Also I don't know how you define your stats in view to race fueled qualifying, weather conditions and technical issues, my qualifying reads 20-14 for Kubica, head to head 14-11 Kubica.


Well yes that's kind of my point. Rookie year aside Kubica had 2 excellent seasons and one good one.

Who knows how good he would have gone on to be but at the point of his injury he had come off a better season than Vettel and they were at similar points in their careers.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:05 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Heidfeld beat Kubica in 2007 and 2009 more convincingly than he beat Webber in 2005 which was marginal, although like has been said Kubica was generally outstanding in 2008, here is an overview of their 3 years together:-

WDC - Heidfeld 2-1
Points - Heidfeld 140-131
Qualifying - Kubica 24-24 (average gap 0.04s)
Podiums - Kubica 8 (1 win) - 7
Head to head - Kubica 18-17

We remember the years were Kubica was outstanding, 2008 and 2010, but forget the 2007 and 2009 years, Kubica was a driver that needed the car to work for him, he wouldn't be as adaptable a driver like Alonso or Hamilton.

Regarding the report that's opposite to what I heard and I hope it's true.



2007 was Kubica's rookie season.

Pretty much every driver looses there rookie season when against an experienced team mate.

Bottas is the only current driver to outscore their experienced team mate in their rookie year.

So really we are just looking at 2009.

Take out the rookie year and you have -

WDC 1-1
Points - 92 - 79 Kubica
Quali - 23 - 12 Kubica
Podiums - 8-5 Kubica
Wins - 1-0 Kubica
Head to Head - 15 - 11 Kubica

So yes, Heidfeld was better in Kubica's rookie year but the stats are one sided after that.

Then they are out weighed by the 2008 season when Kubica was excellent, the following season Heidfeld scored more points, was better in qualifying and was better in the head to head match up.

Also I don't know how you define your stats in view to race fueled qualifying, weather conditions and technical issues, my qualifying reads 20-14 for Kubica, head to head 14-11 Kubica.


Well yes that's kind of my point. Rookie year aside Kubica had 2 excellent seasons and one good one.

Who knows how good he would have gone on to be but at the point of his injury he had come off a better season than Vettel and they were at similar points in their careers.

Kubica was a year in front of Vettel, Kubica replaced Villenueve during the 2006 season because in testing they could see Kubica was faster than the race drivers JV and Heidfeld, I heard it was 3 tenths.

Kubica was mega on the Michelin tyres and he was favoured to beat Heidfeld in 2007, but the tyres changed and it knocked him back, this and the 2009 season asks questions about his consistency with rule changes, remember the cars changed for 2009.

So 2 seasons out of 4 he got beat, a mix of brilliance and then looking a bit average, in 2007 he had far more experience than Hamilton for instance, 2010 he looked very good but then he had a rookie teammate, we see this year how drivers with little experience can be 3rd rate, Palmer and Stroll.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:52 am 
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Posts: 1629
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Heidfeld beat Kubica in 2007 and 2009 more convincingly than he beat Webber in 2005 which was marginal, although like has been said Kubica was generally outstanding in 2008, here is an overview of their 3 years together:-

WDC - Heidfeld 2-1
Points - Heidfeld 140-131
Qualifying - Kubica 24-24 (average gap 0.04s)
Podiums - Kubica 8 (1 win) - 7
Head to head - Kubica 18-17

We remember the years were Kubica was outstanding, 2008 and 2010, but forget the 2007 and 2009 years, Kubica was a driver that needed the car to work for him, he wouldn't be as adaptable a driver like Alonso or Hamilton.

Regarding the report that's opposite to what I heard and I hope it's true.



2007 was Kubica's rookie season.

Pretty much every driver looses there rookie season when against an experienced team mate.

Bottas is the only current driver to outscore their experienced team mate in their rookie year.

So really we are just looking at 2009.

Take out the rookie year and you have -

WDC 1-1
Points - 92 - 79 Kubica
Quali - 23 - 12 Kubica
Podiums - 8-5 Kubica
Wins - 1-0 Kubica
Head to Head - 15 - 11 Kubica

So yes, Heidfeld was better in Kubica's rookie year but the stats are one sided after that.


That looks like a driver slightly better than Heidfeld. Not something I'd put on my resume. Also, if you're going to excuse RK for the rookie season, you must excuse NH for his twilight seasons. Can't have it both ways. So, basically, he was Heidfeld 2.0.


What twilight seasons? Heidfeld was 31 at the start of 2009. Younger than Hamilton is now.

He was hardly diminishing. But if you don't want to count 2009 then don't.

What was wrong with Heidfeld anyway? Hardly anybody could beat him over a long career.


I am talking about Heidfeld, not sure why you mentioned Hamilton? Pay attention.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:38 am 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
What twilight seasons? Heidfeld was 31 at the start of 2009. Younger than Hamilton is now.

I am talking about Heidfeld, not sure why you mentioned Hamilton? Pay attention.

Maybe because Hamilton is the world champion and clearly still on top of his game, yet he's not any younger than when Heidfeld was supposedly in his twilight?

A driver who's 31 is in his prime, not his twilight.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:04 am 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Heidfeld beat Kubica in 2007 and 2009 more convincingly than he beat Webber in 2005 which was marginal, although like has been said Kubica was generally outstanding in 2008, here is an overview of their 3 years together:-

WDC - Heidfeld 2-1
Points - Heidfeld 140-131
Qualifying - Kubica 24-24 (average gap 0.04s)
Podiums - Kubica 8 (1 win) - 7
Head to head - Kubica 18-17

We remember the years were Kubica was outstanding, 2008 and 2010, but forget the 2007 and 2009 years, Kubica was a driver that needed the car to work for him, he wouldn't be as adaptable a driver like Alonso or Hamilton.

Regarding the report that's opposite to what I heard and I hope it's true.



2007 was Kubica's rookie season.

Pretty much every driver looses there rookie season when against an experienced team mate.

Bottas is the only current driver to outscore their experienced team mate in their rookie year.

So really we are just looking at 2009.

Take out the rookie year and you have -

WDC 1-1
Points - 92 - 79 Kubica
Quali - 23 - 12 Kubica
Podiums - 8-5 Kubica
Wins - 1-0 Kubica
Head to Head - 15 - 11 Kubica

So yes, Heidfeld was better in Kubica's rookie year but the stats are one sided after that.


That looks like a driver slightly better than Heidfeld. Not something I'd put on my resume. Also, if you're going to excuse RK for the rookie season, you must excuse NH for his twilight seasons. Can't have it both ways. So, basically, he was Heidfeld 2.0.


What twilight seasons? Heidfeld was 31 at the start of 2009. Younger than Hamilton is now.

He was hardly diminishing. But if you don't want to count 2009 then don't.

What was wrong with Heidfeld anyway? Hardly anybody could beat him over a long career.


I am talking about Heidfeld, not sure why you mentioned Hamilton? Pay attention.


Well that's just unnecessarily rude and the point I was making was not a difficult one to follow.

Heidfeld was younger than the current world champ during any season he faced with Kubica. He was hardly at a time where you would expect a driver to be declining and showed no signs of a decline.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:08 am 
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Posts: 12365
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Heidfeld beat Kubica in 2007 and 2009 more convincingly than he beat Webber in 2005 which was marginal, although like has been said Kubica was generally outstanding in 2008, here is an overview of their 3 years together:-

WDC - Heidfeld 2-1
Points - Heidfeld 140-131
Qualifying - Kubica 24-24 (average gap 0.04s)
Podiums - Kubica 8 (1 win) - 7
Head to head - Kubica 18-17

We remember the years were Kubica was outstanding, 2008 and 2010, but forget the 2007 and 2009 years, Kubica was a driver that needed the car to work for him, he wouldn't be as adaptable a driver like Alonso or Hamilton.

Regarding the report that's opposite to what I heard and I hope it's true.



2007 was Kubica's rookie season.

Pretty much every driver looses there rookie season when against an experienced team mate.

Bottas is the only current driver to outscore their experienced team mate in their rookie year.

So really we are just looking at 2009.

Take out the rookie year and you have -

WDC 1-1
Points - 92 - 79 Kubica
Quali - 23 - 12 Kubica
Podiums - 8-5 Kubica
Wins - 1-0 Kubica
Head to Head - 15 - 11 Kubica

So yes, Heidfeld was better in Kubica's rookie year but the stats are one sided after that.

Then they are out weighed by the 2008 season when Kubica was excellent, the following season Heidfeld scored more points, was better in qualifying and was better in the head to head match up.

Also I don't know how you define your stats in view to race fueled qualifying, weather conditions and technical issues, my qualifying reads 20-14 for Kubica, head to head 14-11 Kubica.


Well yes that's kind of my point. Rookie year aside Kubica had 2 excellent seasons and one good one.

Who knows how good he would have gone on to be but at the point of his injury he had come off a better season than Vettel and they were at similar points in their careers.

Kubica was a year in front of Vettel, Kubica replaced Villenueve during the 2006 season because in testing they could see Kubica was faster than the race drivers JV and Heidfeld, I heard it was 3 tenths.

Kubica was mega on the Michelin tyres and he was favoured to beat Heidfeld in 2007, but the tyres changed and it knocked him back, this and the 2009 season asks questions about his consistency with rule changes, remember the cars changed for 2009.

So 2 seasons out of 4 he got beat, a mix of brilliance and then looking a bit average, in 2007 he had far more experience than Hamilton for instance, 2010 he looked very good but then he had a rookie teammate, we see this year how drivers with little experience can be 3rd rate, Palmer and Stroll.


He was a season ahead of Vettel in terms of experience. So as I said. Similar. I don't think it's really fair to factor in anyone's rookie year. Drivers usually improve into their second and Kubica did. I think it's fair to say that at the end of 2010 Kubica was at least as good as Vettel was then.

As I said before, Vettel went on to get better. Who knows whether Kubica would have done the same.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:04 am 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
IMO...

Tier 1 - Superstars - Vettel, Senna, Lewis, Alonso, Hakkinen etc.

Tier 2 - Top Drivers - Well worth a WDC in the right car - Button, Kimi, Montoya, Rosberg, Hill, Kubica

Tier 3 - A bit below that, not really WDC material but good for a few wins - Webber, Rubens, JV (even if he did win), DC, Fisi, Massa (for 3 years) Heidfeld etc.

I think Rubens proved to the entire world that he had everything necessary to win championships but was held at bay by Ferrari. Had Michael not been the guy in the other car for several years, he would have become a multiple time champion so I think you have him lumped into the wrong group.


WTF? When and how did he prove to the entire world that he could win WDCs? And you mean like it was Button instead of Michael in the other car, he'd have won the championship?

This is the strangest post I've read on PF1 in a long time.


I'm baffled as well. Maybe you can make a case for him being a tier 2 driver. But in Ferrari he was pretty much always slower than Michael and that wasn't because of him being held at bay... He was just slower. On his day he was on par or even faster, but these were but a few days


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Sergey Sirotkin to drive the other test day for Williams at Abu Dhabi. So that's the end of the shootouts, which says to me that Kubica is a done deal

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13318 ... est-lineup

Yeah it's looking that way.


It is refreshing to see others who are looking at the future and what will really happen, instead of rehashing the past and making past comparisons.

It seems the driver choice will come down to either Kubica or Sirotkin, and this test may be the deal-breaker.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:27 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
IMO...

Tier 1 - Superstars - Vettel, Senna, Lewis, Alonso, Hakkinen etc.

Tier 2 - Top Drivers - Well worth a WDC in the right car - Button, Kimi, Montoya, Rosberg, Hill, Kubica

Tier 3 - A bit below that, not really WDC material but good for a few wins - Webber, Rubens, JV (even if he did win), DC, Fisi, Massa (for 3 years) Heidfeld etc.

I think Rubens proved to the entire world that he had everything necessary to win championships but was held at bay by Ferrari. Had Michael not been the guy in the other car for several years, he would have become a multiple time champion so I think you have him lumped into the wrong group.


WTF? When and how did he prove to the entire world that he could win WDCs? And you mean like it was Button instead of Michael in the other car, he'd have won the championship?

This is the strangest post I've read on PF1 in a long time.

Absolutely he'd have mopped the floor with Button in his Ferrari years had Button been in the other car.
In 2009 Rubens was never comfortable with the brakes they chose to run on their cars and that was the difference between them, [[he and Button until the summer break, but once his brake system was changed to suit his preference he was quicker, but by this time everyone else caught up to the Brawn because Brawn had no money to further develop the car once the season started, so it was more difficult to beat the others but Rubens was able to win a few times where as Button never again won a race after the summer break and was barely able to hang on for his WDC. I mean, if you feel Button was better than Rubens that paints a different story for me.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:30 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Sergey Sirotkin to drive the other test day for Williams at Abu Dhabi. So that's the end of the shootouts, which says to me that Kubica is a done deal

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13318 ... est-lineup

Yeah it's looking that way.


It is refreshing to see others who are looking at the future and what will really happen, instead of rehashing the past and making past comparisons.

It seems the driver choice will come down to either Kubica or Sirotkin, and this test may be the deal-breaker.

I'd love to see Kubica back in F1 but this is gut-wrenching for Kvyat and I sincerely hoped he'd get the nod.

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ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
THE REST… THERE ARE FAR BETTER DRIVERS THAT SHOULD BE IN FORMULA 1


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:31 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
IMO...

Tier 1 - Superstars - Vettel, Senna, Lewis, Alonso, Hakkinen etc.

Tier 2 - Top Drivers - Well worth a WDC in the right car - Button, Kimi, Montoya, Rosberg, Hill, Kubica

Tier 3 - A bit below that, not really WDC material but good for a few wins - Webber, Rubens, JV (even if he did win), DC, Fisi, Massa (for 3 years) Heidfeld etc.

I think Rubens proved to the entire world that he had everything necessary to win championships but was held at bay by Ferrari. Had Michael not been the guy in the other car for several years, he would have become a multiple time champion so I think you have him lumped into the wrong group.


WTF? When and how did he prove to the entire world that he could win WDCs? And you mean like it was Button instead of Michael in the other car, he'd have won the championship?

This is the strangest post I've read on PF1 in a long time.

Absolutely he'd have mopped the floor with Button in his Ferrari years had Button been in the other car.
In 2009 Rubens was never comfortable with the brakes they chose to run on their cars and that was the difference between them, [[he and Button until the summer break, but once his brake system was changed to suit his preference he was quicker, but by this time everyone else caught up to the Brawn because Brawn had no money to further develop the car once the season started, so it was more difficult to beat the others but Rubens was able to win a few times where as Button never again won a race after the summer break and was barely able to hang on for his WDC. I mean, if you feel Button was better than Rubens that paints a different story for me.


Over there 4 seasons together Button was the better driver.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:53 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
IMO...

Tier 1 - Superstars - Vettel, Senna, Lewis, Alonso, Hakkinen etc.

Tier 2 - Top Drivers - Well worth a WDC in the right car - Button, Kimi, Montoya, Rosberg, Hill, Kubica

Tier 3 - A bit below that, not really WDC material but good for a few wins - Webber, Rubens, JV (even if he did win), DC, Fisi, Massa (for 3 years) Heidfeld etc.

I think Rubens proved to the entire world that he had everything necessary to win championships but was held at bay by Ferrari. Had Michael not been the guy in the other car for several years, he would have become a multiple time champion so I think you have him lumped into the wrong group.


WTF? When and how did he prove to the entire world that he could win WDCs? And you mean like it was Button instead of Michael in the other car, he'd have won the championship?

This is the strangest post I've read on PF1 in a long time.

Absolutely he'd have mopped the floor with Button in his Ferrari years had Button been in the other car.
In 2009 Rubens was never comfortable with the brakes they chose to run on their cars and that was the difference between them, [[he and Button until the summer break, but once his brake system was changed to suit his preference he was quicker, but by this time everyone else caught up to the Brawn because Brawn had no money to further develop the car once the season started, so it was more difficult to beat the others but Rubens was able to win a few times where as Button never again won a race after the summer break and was barely able to hang on for his WDC. I mean, if you feel Button was better than Rubens that paints a different story for me.


I really didn't see anything from Rubens in the Ferrari which made me sit up and spit my tea out. His best season was probably 2002, when he had half of Schumacher's points. Says it all really. I'm a big Button fan but I'll readily admit drivers like Vettel, Lewis and Alonso had a little something extra in their pocket. Not Rubens though. Button, like Schumacher, seized the Championship when it was there for the taking and when it REALLY mattered, he was the superior driver. Not to mention he outscored Rubens in 3/4 years as team mates.

Anyway, that's all off topic. I personally believe Kubica to be superior to RB and in his prime was a top driver, on par with the likes of Button. Even if he's lost half a second, I'd still put him on par with Massa this year.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:38 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
What twilight seasons? Heidfeld was 31 at the start of 2009. Younger than Hamilton is now.

I am talking about Heidfeld, not sure why you mentioned Hamilton? Pay attention.

Maybe because Hamilton is the world champion and clearly still on top of his game, yet he's not any younger than when Heidfeld was supposedly in his twilight?

A driver who's 31 is in his prime, not his twilight.


I am talking about H-E-I-D-F-E-L-D, not Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:39 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
IMO...

Tier 1 - Superstars - Vettel, Senna, Lewis, Alonso, Hakkinen etc.

Tier 2 - Top Drivers - Well worth a WDC in the right car - Button, Kimi, Montoya, Rosberg, Hill, Kubica

Tier 3 - A bit below that, not really WDC material but good for a few wins - Webber, Rubens, JV (even if he did win), DC, Fisi, Massa (for 3 years) Heidfeld etc.

I think Rubens proved to the entire world that he had everything necessary to win championships but was held at bay by Ferrari. Had Michael not been the guy in the other car for several years, he would have become a multiple time champion so I think you have him lumped into the wrong group.


WTF? When and how did he prove to the entire world that he could win WDCs? And you mean like it was Button instead of Michael in the other car, he'd have won the championship?

This is the strangest post I've read on PF1 in a long time.

Absolutely he'd have mopped the floor with Button in his Ferrari years had Button been in the other car.
In 2009 Rubens was never comfortable with the brakes they chose to run on their cars and that was the difference between them, [[he and Button until the summer break, but once his brake system was changed to suit his preference he was quicker, but by this time everyone else caught up to the Brawn because Brawn had no money to further develop the car once the season started, so it was more difficult to beat the others but Rubens was able to win a few times where as Button never again won a race after the summer break and was barely able to hang on for his WDC. I mean, if you feel Button was better than Rubens that paints a different story for me.


Do they have seas and oceans on the parallel planet you're typing this from?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:55 pm 
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Always annoys me when you have the chance to compare drivers over a decent period in the same machinery and people then say "but ignoring this season..." blah blah blah.
Why? It's rare that we can actually make that comparison and the more data you feed in the truer the picture that emerges so consider it all and make your judgement, or just ignore the stats and make your assessment more subjectively but having a wide set of data on which to validate your opinion and then openingly ignoring a chunk to get it to say what you want renders it pointless.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:22 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Always annoys me when you have the chance to compare drivers over a decent period in the same machinery and people then say "but ignoring this season..." blah blah blah.
Why? It's rare that we can actually make that comparison and the more data you feed in the truer the picture that emerges so consider it all and make your judgement, or just ignore the stats and make your assessment more subjectively but having a wide set of data on which to validate your opinion and then openingly ignoring a chunk to get it to say what you want renders it pointless.


Partially true. Teams have to examine any prospective driver's credentials and past history. But they do not indulge in what I see in this forum, the "since driver A beat driver B and driver B beat C, therefore ... " What teams do and what is happening this coming weekend is that Kubica got his foot in the door because of his past history, but the final selection will be based not on what he did in the past but his current abilities and what he brings to the table. Today.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:09 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Always annoys me when you have the chance to compare drivers over a decent period in the same machinery and people then say "but ignoring this season..." blah blah blah.
Why? It's rare that we can actually make that comparison and the more data you feed in the truer the picture that emerges so consider it all and make your judgement, or just ignore the stats and make your assessment more subjectively but having a wide set of data on which to validate your opinion and then openingly ignoring a chunk to get it to say what you want renders it pointless.


Partially true. Teams have to examine any prospective driver's credentials and past history. But they do not indulge in what I see in this forum, the "since driver A beat driver B and driver B beat C, therefore ... " What teams do and what is happening this coming weekend is that Kubica got his foot in the door because of his past history, but the final selection will be based not on what he did in the past but his current abilities and what he brings to the table. Today.


I think you missed my point mr mcsquinty. I wasn't about teams making selections - i would hope they have a more informed decision making process that some spreadsheet figures!

I was aimed more at people on here who compare 2 drivers across a given period but then say "but if you exclude the season where he struggled with the new regs" etc. The point is, assuming you're making a valid comparison (i.e teammates) then both drivers had the same challenges so overall the driver coming out on top did better. The exception is reliability e.g the points diff between Verstappen and Ricciardo this year. But to cater for that you have simple adjustments like "only when both finished".

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