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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:45 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The 2 point gap between them in 2012 is incredibly misleading when judging their performance relative to each other, Hamilton destroyed Button in 2012.


Frankly, Button was lucky to not find himself beaten by 100+ points in 2012.

While I agree Lewis was superior in 2012, Button had serious setup issues for a number of races, which severely affected his performance. I don't think the race results are a true reflection of their relative performances

Really how many times did Button beat Hamilton on merit in 2010 and 2012?

Does it matter? I'm not arguing that Button is better than Lewis, only that the gap between them for a few races in 2012 wasn't representative


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:06 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:

Frankly, Button was lucky to not find himself beaten by 100+ points in 2012.

While I agree Lewis was superior in 2012, Button had serious setup issues for a number of races, which severely affected his performance. I don't think the race results are a true reflection of their relative performances


Isn't setup issues his own problem though, particularly if he has a teammate without them? Every driver has varying degrees of setup issues to contend with every weekend, I don't think we should give Button too many kudos for both failing to get on top of his and failing to drive around them.

Also would it be total coincidence that McLaren lost their way after Hamilton left them leaving Button to lead any development directions with the car?

Yes I think it would. They built a duffer of a car and the design concept was realised while both Button and Hamilton were there. It wasn't down to the drivers. Let's not credit them with things they are not responsible for

They got lost down a rabbit hole in mid 2012 trying to get the car working for Button when it was working absolutely fine for Hamilton.

Contrast that with Mercedes this season.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:35 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
Frankly, Button was lucky to not find himself beaten by 100+ points in 2012.

While I agree Lewis was superior in 2012, Button had serious setup issues for a number of races, which severely affected his performance. I don't think the race results are a true reflection of their relative performances


Isn't setup issues his own problem though, particularly if he has a teammate without them? Every driver has varying degrees of setup issues to contend with every weekend, I don't think we should give Button too many kudos for both failing to get on top of his and failing to drive around them.

Also would it be total coincidence that McLaren lost their way after Hamilton left them leaving Button to lead any development directions with the car?

Yes I think it would. They built a duffer of a car and the design concept was realised while both Button and Hamilton were there. It wasn't down to the drivers. Let's not credit them with things they are not responsible for

There is some input from drivers that's why I see some people saying that Bottas is driving Hamilton's car, people with good knowledge of such things.

Hamilton left the team in September 2012, Button didn't like the 2012 car even though for most of the season it was the fastest car.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:36 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
The 2 point gap between them in 2012 is incredibly misleading when judging their performance relative to each other, Hamilton destroyed Button in 2012.


Frankly, Button was lucky to not find himself beaten by 100+ points in 2012.

While I agree Lewis was superior in 2012, Button had serious setup issues for a number of races, which severely affected his performance. I don't think the race results are a true reflection of their relative performances

Really how many times did Button beat Hamilton on merit in 2010 and 2012?

Does it matter? I'm not arguing that Button is better than Lewis, only that the gap between them for a few races in 2012 wasn't representative

The gap was bigger than normal that's all.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:42 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Zoue wrote:
While I agree Lewis was superior in 2012, Button had serious setup issues for a number of races, which severely affected his performance. I don't think the race results are a true reflection of their relative performances


Isn't setup issues his own problem though, particularly if he has a teammate without them? Every driver has varying degrees of setup issues to contend with every weekend, I don't think we should give Button too many kudos for both failing to get on top of his and failing to drive around them.

Also would it be total coincidence that McLaren lost their way after Hamilton left them leaving Button to lead any development directions with the car?

Yes I think it would. They built a duffer of a car and the design concept was realised while both Button and Hamilton were there. It wasn't down to the drivers. Let's not credit them with things they are not responsible for

They got lost down a rabbit hole in mid 2012 trying to get the car working for Button when it was working absolutely fine for Hamilton.

Contrast that with Mercedes this season.

Yep I've heard this as well, then they followed Hamilton's direction and got the car back on song but by then Hamilton's WDC title challenge had been severely dented, not that would bother Button as such as his main goal was in beating Hamilton.

Button's politics, McLaren's ineptitude and reliability issues saved Button from a 100 point thrashing and left Hamilton saying chao.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:30 pm 
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Button and Hamilton used different brake compounds in 2012 and McLaren just didn't get Button's brake cooling right first time which is why he had excessive rear tyre degradation which led him down the fruitless path of tinkering with his setup until they worked out what was really wrong. This has now developed into this urban myth about Button and McLaren going their own way to screw the valiant heroic Hamilton ... 🤔.

viewtopic.php?p=513076#p513076

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:00 pm 
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mas wrote:
Button and Hamilton used different brake compounds in 2012 and McLaren just didn't get Button's brake cooling right first time which is why he had excessive rear tyre degradation which led him down the fruitless path of tinkering with his setup until they worked out what was really wrong. This has now developed into this urban myth about Button and McLaren going their own way to screw the valiant heroic Hamilton ... 🤔.

viewtopic.php?p=513076#p513076

No I've heard this said by more than 1 pundit.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
Button and Hamilton used different brake compounds in 2012 and McLaren just didn't get Button's brake cooling right first time which is why he had excessive rear tyre degradation which led him down the fruitless path of tinkering with his setup until they worked out what was really wrong. This has now developed into this urban myth about Button and McLaren going their own way to screw the valiant heroic Hamilton ... 🤔.

viewtopic.php?p=513076#p513076

No I've heard this said by more than 1 pundit.


Doesn't amount to proof that "more than one pundit" are right though. Many a pundit said that trump could not win the election... look how many were wrong.. unfortunately.
;)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:15 am 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
Button and Hamilton used different brake compounds in 2012 and McLaren just didn't get Button's brake cooling right first time which is why he had excessive rear tyre degradation which led him down the fruitless path of tinkering with his setup until they worked out what was really wrong. This has now developed into this urban myth about Button and McLaren going their own way to screw the valiant heroic Hamilton ... 🤔.

viewtopic.php?p=513076#p513076

No I've heard this said by more than 1 pundit.


Doesn't amount to proof that "more than one pundit" are right though. Many a pundit said that trump could not win the election... look how many were wrong.. unfortunately.
;)

One is a prediction the other is an event that happened.

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2013: 5th Place
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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:22 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
Button and Hamilton used different brake compounds in 2012 and McLaren just didn't get Button's brake cooling right first time which is why he had excessive rear tyre degradation which led him down the fruitless path of tinkering with his setup until they worked out what was really wrong. This has now developed into this urban myth about Button and McLaren going their own way to screw the valiant heroic Hamilton ... 🤔.

viewtopic.php?p=513076#p513076

No I've heard this said by more than 1 pundit.


Doesn't amount to proof that "more than one pundit" are right though. Many a pundit said that trump could not win the election... look how many were wrong.. unfortunately.
;)

One is a prediction the other is an event that happened.


A prediction? Where is that?

I would hope that you think that the "event that happened" is the issues Button/McLaren is the brakes, not yet another claim of Hamilton, the unfortunate but all-conquering Victim.
;)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:29 am 
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pokerman wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ennis wrote:

Isn't setup issues his own problem though, particularly if he has a teammate without them? Every driver has varying degrees of setup issues to contend with every weekend, I don't think we should give Button too many kudos for both failing to get on top of his and failing to drive around them.

Also would it be total coincidence that McLaren lost their way after Hamilton left them leaving Button to lead any development directions with the car?

Yes I think it would. They built a duffer of a car and the design concept was realised while both Button and Hamilton were there. It wasn't down to the drivers. Let's not credit them with things they are not responsible for

They got lost down a rabbit hole in mid 2012 trying to get the car working for Button when it was working absolutely fine for Hamilton.

Contrast that with Mercedes this season.

Yep I've heard this as well, then they followed Hamilton's direction and got the car back on song but by then Hamilton's WDC title challenge had been severely dented, not that would bother Button as such as his main goal was in beating Hamilton.

Button's politics, McLaren's ineptitude and reliability issues saved Button from a 100 point thrashing and left Hamilton saying chao.

Not this again. They did not follow Hamilton's direction. He didn't guide them in anything. They went back to the initial baseline setup that worked for him. And there is ZERO evidence - beyond a few fans' hysterical imaginings - that this had any impact upon Hamilton's season. They didn't stop all work to focus on Button. It was Button's side of the garage with the problem, not something that took up the entire team's development time.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:35 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Isn't setup issues his own problem though, particularly if he has a teammate without them? Every driver has varying degrees of setup issues to contend with every weekend, I don't think we should give Button too many kudos for both failing to get on top of his and failing to drive around them.

Also would it be total coincidence that McLaren lost their way after Hamilton left them leaving Button to lead any development directions with the car?

Yes I think it would. They built a duffer of a car and the design concept was realised while both Button and Hamilton were there. It wasn't down to the drivers. Let's not credit them with things they are not responsible for

There is some input from drivers that's why I see some people saying that Bottas is driving Hamilton's car, people with good knowledge of such things.

Hamilton left the team in September 2012, Button didn't like the 2012 car even though for most of the season it was the fastest car.

So does that mean that Hamilton should bear the responsibility for the pig of a car that was the initial 2009 effort? After all, he was the undisputed #1 with the team at the time and it would have beed designed around his preferences, surely? Should he be criticised for building a lemon?

Or, and bear with me here, is it possible that the driver has very limited input on building a car and such tailorings as there are on more on setup than car design?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:08 pm 
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Enjoy (lol)



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:14 pm 
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Alonso really doesn't rate Vettel does he?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:18 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Alonso really doesn't rate Vettel does he?


I guess he's come just short to him twice in a worse car which might leave some bitterness and he's directly gone up against Hamilton and experienced an equal battle. He has grounds to rate Hamilton and I'm assuming he believes he'd have beaten Vettel in the same machinery. Not the first time he's made such comments either.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:30 pm 
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Seb's and Alonso's relationship seems weird. Every time they're in a presser they seem borderline chummy but yeah Alonso throws out some comments some times like this which can be seen as quite harsh and he doesn't fight any of the top 6 cars if they're coming through apart from Seb, it's very noticeable. And the feeling is supposedly mutual from Seb but he doesn't really vocalise as much outside of some sarky radio comments when he's behind him.

I do think 2012 hurt like a mother and he's a bit sore about it. 2010 not so much as he made a few more errors himself but 2012 Seb looked to have blown it in AD behind the SC and then in Brazil in T4 but got away with both and I think that hurts him imo after getting no luck in Spa/Monza and even Suzuka where a small mistake, if you view it as his mistake,was harshly punished with a DNF.

3-3-4(Assuming Lewis converts) would have been the ideal spread of the titles for me but them's the breaks.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:36 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Isn't setup issues his own problem though, particularly if he has a teammate without them? Every driver has varying degrees of setup issues to contend with every weekend, I don't think we should give Button too many kudos for both failing to get on top of his and failing to drive around them.

Also would it be total coincidence that McLaren lost their way after Hamilton left them leaving Button to lead any development directions with the car?

Yes I think it would. They built a duffer of a car and the design concept was realised while both Button and Hamilton were there. It wasn't down to the drivers. Let's not credit them with things they are not responsible for

There is some input from drivers that's why I see some people saying that Bottas is driving Hamilton's car, people with good knowledge of such things.

Hamilton left the team in September 2012, Button didn't like the 2012 car even though for most of the season it was the fastest car.

So does that mean that Hamilton should bear the responsibility for the pig of a car that was the initial 2009 effort? After all, he was the undisputed #1 with the team at the time and it would have beed designed around his preferences, surely? Should he be criticised for building a lemon?

Or, and bear with me here, is it possible that the driver has very limited input on building a car and such tailorings as there are on more on setup than car design?

There was a big rule change in 2009 and McLaren got the car wrong, however they turned things around in the second half of the season and Hamilton outscored every other driver.

In 2012 they needed Hamilton's data, they needed to see what Hamilton was doing in the car to try and sort out Button's problems, why did they need Hamilton's data when the engineers can simple sort things out for themselves, without Hamilton's data would Button have just remained lost at sea?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:39 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Also would it be total coincidence that McLaren lost their way after Hamilton left them leaving Button to lead any development directions with the car?

Yes I think it would. They built a duffer of a car and the design concept was realised while both Button and Hamilton were there. It wasn't down to the drivers. Let's not credit them with things they are not responsible for

They got lost down a rabbit hole in mid 2012 trying to get the car working for Button when it was working absolutely fine for Hamilton.

Contrast that with Mercedes this season.

Yep I've heard this as well, then they followed Hamilton's direction and got the car back on song but by then Hamilton's WDC title challenge had been severely dented, not that would bother Button as such as his main goal was in beating Hamilton.

Button's politics, McLaren's ineptitude and reliability issues saved Button from a 100 point thrashing and left Hamilton saying chao.

Not this again. They did not follow Hamilton's direction. He didn't guide them in anything. They went back to the initial baseline setup that worked for him. And there is ZERO evidence - beyond a few fans' hysterical imaginings - that this had any impact upon Hamilton's season. They didn't stop all work to focus on Button. It was Button's side of the garage with the problem, not something that took up the entire team's development time.

Hysterical fans on a podcast who have on sometimes the likes of Joe Saward, Will Buxton, Matt Sommerfield, these guys have no credibility at all.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:10 am 
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It is not difficult to find media personnel who have their noses up a drivers backside. That doesn't mean that, even though they say what you want to hear, that they are always right... but often they do appeal to "hysterical fans".
;)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:16 am 
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Blake wrote:
It is not difficult to find media personnel who have their noses up a drivers backside. That doesn't mean that, even though they say what you want to hear, that they are always right... but often they do appeal to "hysterical fans".
;)

One of these is an American Mercedes fan, not a driver fan, the other I can't remember, he also talked of the difficulties of Bottas driving what is essential a Hamilton developed car, so no not a Hamilton fan wanting to blow his trumpet.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:27 am 
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Oh... well that makes all the difference... one of them is an American Mercedes fan.

:nod:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:06 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Yes I think it would. They built a duffer of a car and the design concept was realised while both Button and Hamilton were there. It wasn't down to the drivers. Let's not credit them with things they are not responsible for

They got lost down a rabbit hole in mid 2012 trying to get the car working for Button when it was working absolutely fine for Hamilton.

Contrast that with Mercedes this season.

Yep I've heard this as well, then they followed Hamilton's direction and got the car back on song but by then Hamilton's WDC title challenge had been severely dented, not that would bother Button as such as his main goal was in beating Hamilton.

Button's politics, McLaren's ineptitude and reliability issues saved Button from a 100 point thrashing and left Hamilton saying chao.

Not this again. They did not follow Hamilton's direction. He didn't guide them in anything. They went back to the initial baseline setup that worked for him. And there is ZERO evidence - beyond a few fans' hysterical imaginings - that this had any impact upon Hamilton's season. They didn't stop all work to focus on Button. It was Button's side of the garage with the problem, not something that took up the entire team's development time.

Hysterical fans on a podcast who have on sometimes the likes of Joe Saward, Will Buxton, Matt Sommerfield, these guys have no credibility at all.

No, they have zero credibility if they say a team has to rely on a driver's direction to design and develop a car. You're putting Hamilton on a pedestal that just doesn't reflect the reality of this computer-aided world. He drives. He gives input on setup. He doesn't develop a car. And the team certainly isn't running around like headless chickens waiting for a driver to give them direction


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:10 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Also would it be total coincidence that McLaren lost their way after Hamilton left them leaving Button to lead any development directions with the car?

Yes I think it would. They built a duffer of a car and the design concept was realised while both Button and Hamilton were there. It wasn't down to the drivers. Let's not credit them with things they are not responsible for

There is some input from drivers that's why I see some people saying that Bottas is driving Hamilton's car, people with good knowledge of such things.

Hamilton left the team in September 2012, Button didn't like the 2012 car even though for most of the season it was the fastest car.

So does that mean that Hamilton should bear the responsibility for the pig of a car that was the initial 2009 effort? After all, he was the undisputed #1 with the team at the time and it would have beed designed around his preferences, surely? Should he be criticised for building a lemon?

Or, and bear with me here, is it possible that the driver has very limited input on building a car and such tailorings as there are on more on setup than car design?

There was a big rule change in 2009 and McLaren got the car wrong, however they turned things around in the second half of the season and Hamilton outscored every other driver.

In 2012 they needed Hamilton's data, they needed to see what Hamilton was doing in the car to try and sort out Button's problems, why did they need Hamilton's data when the engineers can simple sort things out for themselves, without Hamilton's data would Button have just remained lost at sea?

Actually, they went back to the baseline data for his setup. It had zero impact on car development. And saying they relied on Hamilton's direction implies an active input, and the thought of Hamilton sitting at a table full of engineers telling them what they've been doing wrong is comical.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:11 am 
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I have not always agreed with Somersfield and Buxton in the past - overall their opinion is worth something but not the be all and end all. But Saward? I'm sorry, his opinion is basically worthless. He tends to shout a lot, often has facts wrong and thus opinions based on that go awry, and he badmouths readers who dare not to agree with his opinion all the time.

Never use him as a reference. He's a proper tool.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:48 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Also would it be total coincidence that McLaren lost their way after Hamilton left them leaving Button to lead any development directions with the car?

Yes I think it would. They built a duffer of a car and the design concept was realised while both Button and Hamilton were there. It wasn't down to the drivers. Let's not credit them with things they are not responsible for

There is some input from drivers that's why I see some people saying that Bottas is driving Hamilton's car, people with good knowledge of such things.

Hamilton left the team in September 2012, Button didn't like the 2012 car even though for most of the season it was the fastest car.

So does that mean that Hamilton should bear the responsibility for the pig of a car that was the initial 2009 effort? After all, he was the undisputed #1 with the team at the time and it would have beed designed around his preferences, surely? Should he be criticised for building a lemon?

Or, and bear with me here, is it possible that the driver has very limited input on building a car and such tailorings as there are on more on setup than car design?

There was a big rule change in 2009 and McLaren got the car wrong, however they turned things around in the second half of the season and Hamilton outscored every other driver.

In 2012 they needed Hamilton's data, they needed to see what Hamilton was doing in the car to try and sort out Button's problems, why did they need Hamilton's data when the engineers can simple sort things out for themselves, without Hamilton's data would Button have just remained lost at sea?

Button's problem was not of his own making, he won races at the start and end of 2012. It was McLarens problem by not ensuring his particular rear brake cooling was sufficient during a mid season update. No one needed Hamilton's setup until they sorted out this original fault and then Button used it as a baseline of something that works in a well cooled McLaren to then adapt it to his own style to then win races later on the season. This really is an urban myth you are persisting in believing in.

However there is no doubt that Lewis is probably one of the greatest drivers to have to aid development of a car as the feedback he provides in telling the engineers what is wrong from a driving POV and how it can be improved is nothing short of excellent. He does provide great car development correction analysis once a car has been designed and produced.

p.s. Kubica has a similar talent, doing some great work on the Mercedes simulator in recent years.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:11 pm 
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pokerman wrote:

There was a big rule change in 2009 and McLaren got the car wrong, however they turned things around in the second half of the season and Hamilton outscored every other driver.

In 2012 they needed Hamilton's data, they needed to see what Hamilton was doing in the car to try and sort out Button's problems, why did they need Hamilton's data when the engineers can simple sort things out for themselves, without Hamilton's data would Button have just remained lost at sea?


To add further background, McLaren had made the decision to concentrate their time & endeavours on securing the 2008 WDC championship. This diverted resources away from the 2009 effort. It partly explains why McLaren started the 2009 season with such a “duff” car.

“In 2008, we were developing the(2008) car right down to the very last race and the cost was one where clearly we had a high proportion of our resource developing the(2008) car in the latter part of 2008 and not developing this year's (2009) car. I can have some regrets about the resource allocation but that was a good and necessary effort last year.. We know why the car isn't as quick as the others; because it hasn't had the same amount of development time.” (Martin Whitmarsh, speaking in 2009)

Anyway, interesting vid here, talks about the role of the driver in car development.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJpclhAIxyE


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:19 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Oh... well that makes all the difference... one of them is an American Mercedes fan.

:nod:

I thought it might make a difference because anyone being complimentary to Hamilton you automatically seem to label as being a Hamilton fan.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:25 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Yes I think it would. They built a duffer of a car and the design concept was realised while both Button and Hamilton were there. It wasn't down to the drivers. Let's not credit them with things they are not responsible for

There is some input from drivers that's why I see some people saying that Bottas is driving Hamilton's car, people with good knowledge of such things.

Hamilton left the team in September 2012, Button didn't like the 2012 car even though for most of the season it was the fastest car.

So does that mean that Hamilton should bear the responsibility for the pig of a car that was the initial 2009 effort? After all, he was the undisputed #1 with the team at the time and it would have beed designed around his preferences, surely? Should he be criticised for building a lemon?

Or, and bear with me here, is it possible that the driver has very limited input on building a car and such tailorings as there are on more on setup than car design?

There was a big rule change in 2009 and McLaren got the car wrong, however they turned things around in the second half of the season and Hamilton outscored every other driver.

In 2012 they needed Hamilton's data, they needed to see what Hamilton was doing in the car to try and sort out Button's problems, why did they need Hamilton's data when the engineers can simple sort things out for themselves, without Hamilton's data would Button have just remained lost at sea?

Actually, they went back to the baseline data for his setup. It had zero impact on car development. And saying they relied on Hamilton's direction implies an active input, and the thought of Hamilton sitting at a table full of engineers telling them what they've been doing wrong is comical.

Hamilton wasn't involved he only happened to see what they were up to, why did these engineers that can work things out by themselves were so dependent on Hamilton's data to try and sort out Button's problems, analysing what he was doing inside the car?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:31 pm 
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mds wrote:
I have not always agreed with Somersfield and Buxton in the past - overall their opinion is worth something but not the be all and end all. But Saward? I'm sorry, his opinion is basically worthless. He tends to shout a lot, often has facts wrong and thus opinions based on that go awry, and he badmouths readers who dare not to agree with his opinion all the time.

Never use him as a reference. He's a proper tool.

Saward is not my reference I'm just pointing out that the podcast has credibility by having F1 insiders making contributions.

Generally speaking who do I take more note of, people that work inside the industry or people like me sat in their armchairs?

You can decide you have more credibility than the likes of Saward, Somersfield and Buxton?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:41 pm 
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mas wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Yes I think it would. They built a duffer of a car and the design concept was realised while both Button and Hamilton were there. It wasn't down to the drivers. Let's not credit them with things they are not responsible for

There is some input from drivers that's why I see some people saying that Bottas is driving Hamilton's car, people with good knowledge of such things.

Hamilton left the team in September 2012, Button didn't like the 2012 car even though for most of the season it was the fastest car.

So does that mean that Hamilton should bear the responsibility for the pig of a car that was the initial 2009 effort? After all, he was the undisputed #1 with the team at the time and it would have beed designed around his preferences, surely? Should he be criticised for building a lemon?

Or, and bear with me here, is it possible that the driver has very limited input on building a car and such tailorings as there are on more on setup than car design?

There was a big rule change in 2009 and McLaren got the car wrong, however they turned things around in the second half of the season and Hamilton outscored every other driver.

In 2012 they needed Hamilton's data, they needed to see what Hamilton was doing in the car to try and sort out Button's problems, why did they need Hamilton's data when the engineers can simple sort things out for themselves, without Hamilton's data would Button have just remained lost at sea?

Button's problem was not of his own making, he won races at the start and end of 2012. It was McLarens problem by not ensuring his particular rear brake cooling was sufficient during a mid season update. No one needed Hamilton's setup until they sorted out this original fault and then Button used it as a baseline of something that works in a well cooled McLaren to then adapt it to his own style to then win races later on the season. This really is an urban myth you are persisting in believing in.

However there is no doubt that Lewis is probably one of the greatest drivers to have to aid development of a car as the feedback he provides in telling the engineers what is wrong from a driving POV and how it can be improved is nothing short of excellent. He does provide great car development correction analysis once a car has been designed and produced.

p.s. Kubica has a similar talent, doing some great work on the Mercedes simulator in recent years.

The first part I find interesting in the amount of knowledge some people have or think they have as opposed to some people who have more access to insider knowledge, so who do I believe?

The second part is what I have actually been trying to allude to but not explained anywhere as near as well as you and this somehow gets lost in me somehow saying that Hamilton designs the car.

Going forward from that does this feedback help in the design of next year's car seeing as you have good knowledge of such things?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:11 pm 
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SR1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:

There was a big rule change in 2009 and McLaren got the car wrong, however they turned things around in the second half of the season and Hamilton outscored every other driver.

In 2012 they needed Hamilton's data, they needed to see what Hamilton was doing in the car to try and sort out Button's problems, why did they need Hamilton's data when the engineers can simple sort things out for themselves, without Hamilton's data would Button have just remained lost at sea?


To add further background, McLaren had made the decision to concentrate their time & endeavours on securing the 2008 WDC championship. This diverted resources away from the 2009 effort. It partly explains why McLaren started the 2009 season with such a “duff” car.

“In 2008, we were developing the(2008) car right down to the very last race and the cost was one where clearly we had a high proportion of our resource developing the(2008) car in the latter part of 2008 and not developing this year's (2009) car. I can have some regrets about the resource allocation but that was a good and necessary effort last year.. We know why the car isn't as quick as the others; because it hasn't had the same amount of development time.” (Martin Whitmarsh, speaking in 2009)

Anyway, interesting vid here, talks about the role of the driver in car development.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJpclhAIxyE

Cheers that was very interesting. :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
You can decide you have more credibility than the likes of Saward, Somersfield and Buxton?


When they state absolute facts? No.
When it is pure opinion based on commonly known facts, then I don't see why my opinion would be worth any less per se.

Argument from authority is a very well known form of defeasible argument. Don't fall into its pitfall.

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