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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:33 pm 
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The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:44 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....

Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:59 pm 
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F1Tyrant wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....

Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

The important part that you're missing is that, in 2007, you qualified with race fuel in the car. Each team had to run one car heavier than the other in order to ensure that they didn't get stacked up in the pits. Alonso qualified with the lighter car up until the Canadian GP (the first race where Hamilton had equal status). Through the first 5 races where Alonso was always lighter, Fernando out-qualified Hamilton 4-1. After they began alternating strategies, Hamilton out-qualified Alonso 8-4.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:13 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I think that's rubbish, frankly. Where's the rule that says you have to agree with someone 100% or not at all?

I think you either believe what he says or don't believe what he says, if you are just happy with things that conforms to what you think, then that just becomes your opinion and not Button's opinion.

It's not a question of believing him (I see no reason why he wouldn't be telling the truth as he sees it), but rather of agreeing with his beliefs. And I would say I don't find much to argue against, but I'm not entirely convinced Alonso is a step behind in the qualifying department. Not ruling it out, but for instance he matched Hamilton when they were together, and he tends to dominate most other team mates, so it shouldn't surprise me if he was up there with the quickest qualifiers, too

First of all although qualifying was reasonable close Alonso did not match Hamilton and let's not forget that Hamilton was a rookie.

He competed against Hamilton for 3 years and Alonso for 2 years yet you feel you are better qualified than Button to judge.

And we're back to the question why it's important to you that others shouldn't be allowed a different opinion?

What is it about my post that threatens you? The fact that I believe Alonso to be somewhat underrated in qualifying? Is this really such a big deal? If so, why?

Oh, and Alonso did match Hamilton in qualifying. The final result was 9-8, so they were pretty equal

A different opinion from Button like you are as qualified as him who actually went up against Hamilton and Alonso, what Button said was relevant as long as it corresponded to what you think about Hamilton in relation to Alonso.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:14 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....

Perhaps Alonso himself when he said he may not be the fastest driver in F1?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:17 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....

Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

The important part that you're missing is that, in 2007, you qualified with race fuel in the car. Each team had to run one car heavier than the other in order to ensure that they didn't get stacked up in the pits. Alonso qualified with the lighter car up until the Canadian GP (the first race where Hamilton had equal status). Through the first 5 races where Alonso was always lighter, Fernando out-qualified Hamilton 4-1. After they began alternating strategies, Hamilton out-qualified Alonso 8-4.

Indeed in Monaco the #2 driver, that being Hamilton, had to run with 5 laps more fuel than Alonso, no surprise to see Alonso on pole.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:32 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think you either believe what he says or don't believe what he says, if you are just happy with things that conforms to what you think, then that just becomes your opinion and not Button's opinion.

It's not a question of believing him (I see no reason why he wouldn't be telling the truth as he sees it), but rather of agreeing with his beliefs. And I would say I don't find much to argue against, but I'm not entirely convinced Alonso is a step behind in the qualifying department. Not ruling it out, but for instance he matched Hamilton when they were together, and he tends to dominate most other team mates, so it shouldn't surprise me if he was up there with the quickest qualifiers, too

First of all although qualifying was reasonable close Alonso did not match Hamilton and let's not forget that Hamilton was a rookie.

He competed against Hamilton for 3 years and Alonso for 2 years yet you feel you are better qualified than Button to judge.

And we're back to the question why it's important to you that others shouldn't be allowed a different opinion?

What is it about my post that threatens you? The fact that I believe Alonso to be somewhat underrated in qualifying? Is this really such a big deal? If so, why?

Oh, and Alonso did match Hamilton in qualifying. The final result was 9-8, so they were pretty equal

A different opinion from Button like you are as qualified as him who actually went up against Hamilton and Alonso, what Button said was relevant as long as it corresponded to what you think about Hamilton in relation to Alonso.

which doesn't in any way answer my questions?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:36 am 
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F1Tyrant wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....

Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

Trulli was renown for being a better qualifier than racer - hence the Trulli train, as he went relatively slower in the race itself and held other cars up.

I'm not sure being matched by Hamilton, if we are saying Hamilton is the benchmark, can be anything other than evidence that Alonso is a top qualifier. Rookies improve racecraft over time, but I should have thought their raw speed should still be there from the beginning. All of which suggests Alonso is as much a qualifying benchmark as anybody else


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:49 am 
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Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....

Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

Trulli was renown for being a better qualifier than racer - hence the Trulli train, as he went relatively slower in the race itself and held other cars up.

I'm not sure being matched by Hamilton, if we are saying Hamilton is the benchmark, can be anything other than evidence that Alonso is a top qualifier. Rookies improve racecraft over time, but I should have thought their raw speed should still be there from the beginning. All of which suggests Alonso is as much a qualifying benchmark as anybody else


Of course Alonso is the best in any department. ;)
Why don't we close this thread already since we have the same people ignoring facts to force their opinions on others?
Button is talking about Hamilton's time in McLaren so it will be good to do a refresh:

Pole Positions (HAM vs teammates in McLaren)

HAM 11 ----- KOV 1
HAM 9 ------- BUT 1
HAM 6 ------- ALO 2

Total: HAM 26 Poles ------ Teammates 4 poles

Button is talking about Hamilton's peaks , hence the disparity between HAM pole numbers and HAM general record against his teammate (and the Senna reference made by Jenson).
We have often heard of engineers(or Lauda) wondering were he found tenths after him beating their simulators time on track.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:38 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....

Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

Trulli was renown for being a better qualifier than racer - hence the Trulli train, as he went relatively slower in the race itself and held other cars up.

I'm not sure being matched by Hamilton, if we are saying Hamilton is the benchmark, can be anything other than evidence that Alonso is a top qualifier. Rookies improve racecraft over time, but I should have thought their raw speed should still be there from the beginning. All of which suggests Alonso is as much a qualifying benchmark as anybody else


Of course Alonso is the best in any department. ;)
Why don't we close this thread already since we have the same people ignoring facts to force their opinions on others?
Button is talking about Hamilton's time in McLaren so it will be good to do a refresh:

Pole Positions (HAM vs teammates in McLaren)

HAM 11 ----- KOV 1
HAM 9 ------- BUT 1
HAM 6 ------- ALO 2

Total: HAM 26 Poles ------ Teammates 4 poles

Button is talking about Hamilton's peaks , hence the disparity between HAM pole numbers and HAM general record against his teammate (and the Senna reference made by Jenson).
We have often heard of engineers(or Lauda) wondering were he found tenths after him beating their simulators time on track.


Hasn't Alonso "out poled" every team mate except Hamilton?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:15 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
It's not a question of believing him (I see no reason why he wouldn't be telling the truth as he sees it), but rather of agreeing with his beliefs. And I would say I don't find much to argue against, but I'm not entirely convinced Alonso is a step behind in the qualifying department. Not ruling it out, but for instance he matched Hamilton when they were together, and he tends to dominate most other team mates, so it shouldn't surprise me if he was up there with the quickest qualifiers, too

First of all although qualifying was reasonable close Alonso did not match Hamilton and let's not forget that Hamilton was a rookie.

He competed against Hamilton for 3 years and Alonso for 2 years yet you feel you are better qualified than Button to judge.

And we're back to the question why it's important to you that others shouldn't be allowed a different opinion?

What is it about my post that threatens you? The fact that I believe Alonso to be somewhat underrated in qualifying? Is this really such a big deal? If so, why?

Oh, and Alonso did match Hamilton in qualifying. The final result was 9-8, so they were pretty equal

A different opinion from Button like you are as qualified as him who actually went up against Hamilton and Alonso, what Button said was relevant as long as it corresponded to what you think about Hamilton in relation to Alonso.

which doesn't in any way answer my questions?

The question being that your opinion has the same weight as Button's opinion?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:16 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....

Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

Trulli was renown for being a better qualifier than racer - hence the Trulli train, as he went relatively slower in the race itself and held other cars up.

I'm not sure being matched by Hamilton, if we are saying Hamilton is the benchmark, can be anything other than evidence that Alonso is a top qualifier. Rookies improve racecraft over time, but I should have thought their raw speed should still be there from the beginning. All of which suggests Alonso is as much a qualifying benchmark as anybody else


Of course Alonso is the best in any department. ;)
Why don't we close this thread already since we have the same people ignoring facts to force their opinions on others?
Button is talking about Hamilton's time in McLaren so it will be good to do a refresh:

Pole Positions (HAM vs teammates in McLaren)

HAM 11 ----- KOV 1
HAM 9 ------- BUT 1
HAM 6 ------- ALO 2

Total: HAM 26 Poles ------ Teammates 4 poles

Button is talking about Hamilton's peaks , hence the disparity between HAM pole numbers and HAM general record against his teammate (and the Senna reference made by Jenson).
We have often heard of engineers(or Lauda) wondering were he found tenths after him beating their simulators time on track.


Hasn't Alonso "out poled" every team mate except Hamilton?

I don't believe that anyone said that Alonso was a poor qualifier?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:27 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....

Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

Trulli was renown for being a better qualifier than racer - hence the Trulli train, as he went relatively slower in the race itself and held other cars up.

I'm not sure being matched by Hamilton, if we are saying Hamilton is the benchmark, can be anything other than evidence that Alonso is a top qualifier. Rookies improve racecraft over time, but I should have thought their raw speed should still be there from the beginning. All of which suggests Alonso is as much a qualifying benchmark as anybody else


Of course Alonso is the best in any department. ;)
Why don't we close this thread already since we have the same people ignoring facts to force their opinions on others?
Button is talking about Hamilton's time in McLaren so it will be good to do a refresh:

Pole Positions (HAM vs teammates in McLaren)

HAM 11 ----- KOV 1
HAM 9 ------- BUT 1
HAM 6 ------- ALO 2

Total: HAM 26 Poles ------ Teammates 4 poles

Button is talking about Hamilton's peaks , hence the disparity between HAM pole numbers and HAM general record against his teammate (and the Senna reference made by Jenson).
We have often heard of engineers(or Lauda) wondering were he found tenths after him beating their simulators time on track.


Lewis can sure put it on pole. When he gets it right it's often very right... and he gets it right with intimidating regularity.


Last edited by Invade on Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:28 pm 
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No, but we were discussing evidence to suggest that Alonso isn't a top qualifier. I happen to think he is probably not as good as Hamilton but certainly not sub par compared to anybody else.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:31 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
No, but we were discussing evidence to suggest that Alonso isn't a top qualifier. I happen to think he is probably not as good as Hamilton but certainly not sub par compared to anybody else.

Isn't that essentially what's being said apart from one poster who doesn't want to consider Hamilton as being the best qualifier in F1?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:31 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
No, but we were discussing evidence to suggest that Alonso isn't a top qualifier. I happen to think he is probably not as good as Hamilton but certainly not sub par compared to anybody else.


I think that's a trap I fell into a few years back - until I looked at the stats...

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:29 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....

Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

Trulli was renown for being a better qualifier than racer - hence the Trulli train, as he went relatively slower in the race itself and held other cars up.

I'm not sure being matched by Hamilton, if we are saying Hamilton is the benchmark, can be anything other than evidence that Alonso is a top qualifier. Rookies improve racecraft over time, but I should have thought their raw speed should still be there from the beginning. All of which suggests Alonso is as much a qualifying benchmark as anybody else

Totally inaccurate. The one time where an F1 driver improves their pace is the first 2-3 years of their career. This is due to acclimation to the way an F1 car achieves speed (particularly the braking in F1 is something that must be adapted to). Also Alonso did not "match" Hamilton in qualifying. From the time they began to actually alternate fuel strategy, Hamilton beat Alonso 8-4.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:43 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
No, but we were discussing evidence to suggest that Alonso isn't a top qualifier. I happen to think he is probably not as good as Hamilton but certainly not sub par compared to anybody else.

Isn't that essentially what's being said apart from one poster who doesn't want to consider Hamilton as being the best qualifier in F1?

I think it's possible, but don't think it's set in stone or a sure thing. Of course, I realize that's akin to heresy to some, but that can't be helped


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:46 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....

Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

Trulli was renown for being a better qualifier than racer - hence the Trulli train, as he went relatively slower in the race itself and held other cars up.

I'm not sure being matched by Hamilton, if we are saying Hamilton is the benchmark, can be anything other than evidence that Alonso is a top qualifier. Rookies improve racecraft over time, but I should have thought their raw speed should still be there from the beginning. All of which suggests Alonso is as much a qualifying benchmark as anybody else

Totally inaccurate. The one time where an F1 driver improves their pace is the first 2-3 years of their career. This is due to acclimation to the way an F1 car achieves speed (particularly the braking in F1 is something that must be adapted to). Also Alonso did not "match" Hamilton in qualifying. From the time they began to actually alternate fuel strategy, Hamilton beat Alonso 8-4.

I'm sure you won't be surprised to know I disagree, particularly with the blanket statement that drivers improve their pace - when talking particularly about qualifying - in the first 2-3 years.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:55 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....

Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

Trulli was renown for being a better qualifier than racer - hence the Trulli train, as he went relatively slower in the race itself and held other cars up.

I'm not sure being matched by Hamilton, if we are saying Hamilton is the benchmark, can be anything other than evidence that Alonso is a top qualifier. Rookies improve racecraft over time, but I should have thought their raw speed should still be there from the beginning. All of which suggests Alonso is as much a qualifying benchmark as anybody else

Totally inaccurate. The one time where an F1 driver improves their pace is the first 2-3 years of their career. This is due to acclimation to the way an F1 car achieves speed (particularly the braking in F1 is something that must be adapted to). Also Alonso did not "match" Hamilton in qualifying. From the time they began to actually alternate fuel strategy, Hamilton beat Alonso 8-4.

I'm sure you won't be surprised to know I disagree, particularly with the blanket statement that drivers improve their pace - when talking particularly about qualifying - in the first 2-3 years.

It's actually not something you have to agree with. It's been statistically modeled.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:03 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....

Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

Trulli was renown for being a better qualifier than racer - hence the Trulli train, as he went relatively slower in the race itself and held other cars up.

I'm not sure being matched by Hamilton, if we are saying Hamilton is the benchmark, can be anything other than evidence that Alonso is a top qualifier. Rookies improve racecraft over time, but I should have thought their raw speed should still be there from the beginning. All of which suggests Alonso is as much a qualifying benchmark as anybody else

Totally inaccurate. The one time where an F1 driver improves their pace is the first 2-3 years of their career. This is due to acclimation to the way an F1 car achieves speed (particularly the braking in F1 is something that must be adapted to). Also Alonso did not "match" Hamilton in qualifying. From the time they began to actually alternate fuel strategy, Hamilton beat Alonso 8-4.

I'm sure you won't be surprised to know I disagree, particularly with the blanket statement that drivers improve their pace - when talking particularly about qualifying - in the first 2-3 years.


I think generally they do. Obviously not all but usually...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:34 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....

Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

Trulli was renown for being a better qualifier than racer - hence the Trulli train, as he went relatively slower in the race itself and held other cars up.

I'm not sure being matched by Hamilton, if we are saying Hamilton is the benchmark, can be anything other than evidence that Alonso is a top qualifier. Rookies improve racecraft over time, but I should have thought their raw speed should still be there from the beginning. All of which suggests Alonso is as much a qualifying benchmark as anybody else


Qualifying is not "raw speed". Just watch Hamilton's latest insight into how he improved his quali in 2017.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:35 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....


He's himself said that.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:42 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
No, but we were discussing evidence to suggest that Alonso isn't a top qualifier. I happen to think he is probably not as good as Hamilton but certainly not sub par compared to anybody else.

Isn't that essentially what's being said apart from one poster who doesn't want to consider Hamilton as being the best qualifier in F1?

I think it's possible, but don't think it's set in stone or a sure thing. Of course, I realize that's akin to heresy to some, but that can't be helped

Well we will always have you claiming otherwise, Button says it so here you are.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:45 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....

Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

Trulli was renown for being a better qualifier than racer - hence the Trulli train, as he went relatively slower in the race itself and held other cars up.

I'm not sure being matched by Hamilton, if we are saying Hamilton is the benchmark, can be anything other than evidence that Alonso is a top qualifier. Rookies improve racecraft over time, but I should have thought their raw speed should still be there from the beginning. All of which suggests Alonso is as much a qualifying benchmark as anybody else

Totally inaccurate. The one time where an F1 driver improves their pace is the first 2-3 years of their career. This is due to acclimation to the way an F1 car achieves speed (particularly the braking in F1 is something that must be adapted to). Also Alonso did not "match" Hamilton in qualifying. From the time they began to actually alternate fuel strategy, Hamilton beat Alonso 8-4.

I'm sure you won't be surprised to know I disagree, particularly with the blanket statement that drivers improve their pace - when talking particularly about qualifying - in the first 2-3 years.

Drivers don't improve from their rookie years?

I have a feeling that's not the view of the majority?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:49 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....


He's himself said that.

Yeah I ventured that as well, his words went something like, "I might not be the fastest driver over one lap, but no one is better than me come race day".

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:26 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....

Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

Trulli was renown for being a better qualifier than racer - hence the Trulli train, as he went relatively slower in the race itself and held other cars up.

I'm not sure being matched by Hamilton, if we are saying Hamilton is the benchmark, can be anything other than evidence that Alonso is a top qualifier. Rookies improve racecraft over time, but I should have thought their raw speed should still be there from the beginning. All of which suggests Alonso is as much a qualifying benchmark as anybody else

Totally inaccurate. The one time where an F1 driver improves their pace is the first 2-3 years of their career. This is due to acclimation to the way an F1 car achieves speed (particularly the braking in F1 is something that must be adapted to). Also Alonso did not "match" Hamilton in qualifying. From the time they began to actually alternate fuel strategy, Hamilton beat Alonso 8-4.


Does that include Hungary?. Fuel corrected over the whole year James Allen had Alonso come out slightly quicker on his old ITV page. BBC had it to Lewis by 0.050.

One or two result swing and a difference of less than a tenth is about as close as you can get. It doesn't get much closer without breaking dead even really.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....


He's himself said that.

Yeah I ventured that as well, his words went something like, "I might not be the fastest driver over one lap, but no one is better than me come race day".


Do you think no-one's better than him come race day?.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:32 pm 
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That less than a tenth difference holds firm through their time as JB's team mate as well 8-10 yrs later so improvements from Rookie and new team and tyres seem to balance out over 1 lap.

Or it's a hell of a coincidence.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:03 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
That less than a tenth difference holds firm through their time as JB's team mate as well 8-10 yrs later so improvements from Rookie and new team and tyres seem to balance out over 1 lap.

Or it's a hell of a coincidence.

I'm not sure if I'm following you here. There was a substantially larger gap in qualifying between Hamilton and Button than the gap between Alonso and Button.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:07 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....


He's himself said that.

Yeah I ventured that as well, his words went something like, "I might not be the fastest driver over one lap, but no one is better than me come race day".


Do you think no-one's better than him come race day?.

It's something I can't dispute over a season, this is were the argument goes from the fastest to the best.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:10 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
That less than a tenth difference holds firm through their time as JB's team mate as well 8-10 yrs later so improvements from Rookie and new team and tyres seem to balance out over 1 lap.

Or it's a hell of a coincidence.

Less than a tenth is in itself a vague measurement, that covers 0.01s to 0.09s.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:16 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....

Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

Trulli was renown for being a better qualifier than racer - hence the Trulli train, as he went relatively slower in the race itself and held other cars up.

I'm not sure being matched by Hamilton, if we are saying Hamilton is the benchmark, can be anything other than evidence that Alonso is a top qualifier. Rookies improve racecraft over time, but I should have thought their raw speed should still be there from the beginning. All of which suggests Alonso is as much a qualifying benchmark as anybody else

Totally inaccurate. The one time where an F1 driver improves their pace is the first 2-3 years of their career. This is due to acclimation to the way an F1 car achieves speed (particularly the braking in F1 is something that must be adapted to). Also Alonso did not "match" Hamilton in qualifying. From the time they began to actually alternate fuel strategy, Hamilton beat Alonso 8-4.


Does that include Hungary?. Fuel corrected over the whole year James Allen had Alonso come out slightly quicker on his old ITV page. BBC had it to Lewis by 0.050.

One or two result swing and a difference of less than a tenth is about as close as you can get. It doesn't get much closer without breaking dead even really.

As already been mentioned Alonso enjoyed No.1 status for the first 5 races of the season and that gives him a huge boost in his head to head with Lewis otherwise when things levelled out Alonso was beaten more often than not!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:27 pm 
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bonecrasher wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

Trulli was renown for being a better qualifier than racer - hence the Trulli train, as he went relatively slower in the race itself and held other cars up.

I'm not sure being matched by Hamilton, if we are saying Hamilton is the benchmark, can be anything other than evidence that Alonso is a top qualifier. Rookies improve racecraft over time, but I should have thought their raw speed should still be there from the beginning. All of which suggests Alonso is as much a qualifying benchmark as anybody else

Totally inaccurate. The one time where an F1 driver improves their pace is the first 2-3 years of their career. This is due to acclimation to the way an F1 car achieves speed (particularly the braking in F1 is something that must be adapted to). Also Alonso did not "match" Hamilton in qualifying. From the time they began to actually alternate fuel strategy, Hamilton beat Alonso 8-4.


Does that include Hungary?. Fuel corrected over the whole year James Allen had Alonso come out slightly quicker on his old ITV page. BBC had it to Lewis by 0.050.

One or two result swing and a difference of less than a tenth is about as close as you can get. It doesn't get much closer without breaking dead even really.

As already been mentioned Alonso enjoyed No.1 status for the first 5 races of the season and that gives him a huge boost in his head to head with Lewis otherwise when things levelled out Alonso was beaten more often than not!

Yeah when I look at my figures Alonso out qualified Hamilton in the first 4 races of the season, after that it was 9-4 to Hamilton, strange how no credence is given to Hamilton basically learning on the job.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:46 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
That less than a tenth difference holds firm through their time as JB's team mate as well 8-10 yrs later so improvements from Rookie and new team and tyres seem to balance out over 1 lap.

Or it's a hell of a coincidence.

I'm not sure if I'm following you here. There was a substantially larger gap in qualifying between Hamilton and Button than the gap between Alonso and Button.


There wasn't really. Both were around a quarter of a second on avg with Lewis still having over half a tenth in hand over Alonso(Last one I saw had Alonso at 0.220 and Lewis at 0.280).

Results wise was similar at the same point of the battle too. 29-11 for Lewis and 22-11 for Alonso I believe.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:50 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
That less than a tenth difference holds firm through their time as JB's team mate as well 8-10 yrs later so improvements from Rookie and new team and tyres seem to balance out over 1 lap.

Or it's a hell of a coincidence.

Less than a tenth is in itself a vague measurement, that covers 0.01s to 0.09s.


Quite, but either are still close in a Qualifying battle. Engine tolerances,ballast advantages and condition changes can effect that type of gap, it's why we generally see both drivers quite happy if it's under a tenth.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:53 pm 
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bonecrasher wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Alonso was beaten 16-15 by Jarno Trulli over one lap in 2003-2004 and 9-8 by Hamilton in 2007. If we exclude Hungary 2007, then he was matched by a very well prepared rookie which suggests that he's very good but not great in qualifying. I'd suggest he was an A2 qualifier alongside Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen (who may prove to be A1 material) but behind the likes of Hamilton.

Trulli was renown for being a better qualifier than racer - hence the Trulli train, as he went relatively slower in the race itself and held other cars up.

I'm not sure being matched by Hamilton, if we are saying Hamilton is the benchmark, can be anything other than evidence that Alonso is a top qualifier. Rookies improve racecraft over time, but I should have thought their raw speed should still be there from the beginning. All of which suggests Alonso is as much a qualifying benchmark as anybody else

Totally inaccurate. The one time where an F1 driver improves their pace is the first 2-3 years of their career. This is due to acclimation to the way an F1 car achieves speed (particularly the braking in F1 is something that must be adapted to). Also Alonso did not "match" Hamilton in qualifying. From the time they began to actually alternate fuel strategy, Hamilton beat Alonso 8-4.


Does that include Hungary?. Fuel corrected over the whole year James Allen had Alonso come out slightly quicker on his old ITV page. BBC had it to Lewis by 0.050.

One or two result swing and a difference of less than a tenth is about as close as you can get. It doesn't get much closer without breaking dead even really.

As already been mentioned Alonso enjoyed No.1 status for the first 5 races of the season and that gives him a huge boost in his head to head with Lewis otherwise when things levelled out Alonso was beaten more often than not!


He was yeah but that's why I used fuel corrected. There was results for both where the overfuelled driver was actually quicker when corrected which leaves the head to head flawed.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:05 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The evidence to suggest Alonso is not an A1 qualifier is.....


He's himself said that.

Yeah I ventured that as well, his words went something like, "I might not be the fastest driver over one lap, but no one is better than me come race day".


Do you think no-one's better than him come race day?.

It's something I can't dispute over a season, this is were the argument goes from the fastest to the best.


He's clearly saying he's the fastest on race day,forget over a season, so do you think he is?.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:48 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
That less than a tenth difference holds firm through their time as JB's team mate as well 8-10 yrs later so improvements from Rookie and new team and tyres seem to balance out over 1 lap.

Or it's a hell of a coincidence.

Less than a tenth is in itself a vague measurement, that covers 0.01s to 0.09s.


Quite, but either are still close in a Qualifying battle. Engine tolerances,ballast advantages and condition changes can effect that type of gap, it's why we generally see both drivers quite happy if it's under a tenth.

Under a tenth is respectable but it still means that one driver has the advantage especially if it's towards the higher end, it means he will come out on top more often than not.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:49 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
That less than a tenth difference holds firm through their time as JB's team mate as well 8-10 yrs later so improvements from Rookie and new team and tyres seem to balance out over 1 lap.

Or it's a hell of a coincidence.

I'm not sure if I'm following you here. There was a substantially larger gap in qualifying between Hamilton and Button than the gap between Alonso and Button.


There wasn't really. Both were around a quarter of a second on avg with Lewis still having over half a tenth in hand over Alonso(Last one I saw had Alonso at 0.220 and Lewis at 0.280).

Results wise was similar at the same point of the battle too. 29-11 for Lewis and 22-11 for Alonso I believe.

I know these figures don't include 2015.

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