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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:36 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's all the same rhetoric about what you believe and nobody not me who references driving records or somebody who is actually on the front line like Button is going to dissuade you.

My overall answer is that you are wrong in a lot of things you say in reference to Hamilton and of course being a Hamilton fan I will flag up things that I believe not to be accurate in respect to him, that's my obvious stance.

You have no driving records which show that Hamilton is a better qualifier than Alonso, so I don't know what you mean about referencing records since I have referenced just as many as you have in this conversation.

What I have said is not controversial. The trouble is you refuse to allow anyone to have an opinion that doesn't put Hamilton as the best in (pick driving stat here). I've said overall I've little to argue against in Button's quote, which by implication means I accept that Hamilton is up there with the best qualifiers ever, but apparently that's not enough for you. I just think that Alonso's qualifying record is equally impressive and I'm not convinced he's inferior. His record in that regard speaks for itself so don't know why you would take issue with that. It's not like it's insulting to Hamilton in any way.



Same old same old..
Button has been teammate of both Hamilton and Alonso so he knows what he is talking about.
And if you didn't read what he actually said, he was talking about Hamilton peaks and unbelievable laps. We have heard the same from Lauda, Lowe, Rosberg.
It seems to me that you are only interested in winning arguments completely ignoring facts(not opinions or some kind of "if", "shoulda", woulda") and only coming back when the debate is favorable to the agenda you are trying to push.

Best means better than others. So it can only be one. You think Alonso is the best in qualifying? It is your opinion, not supported by facts or by those who have worked with both(or the guy himself).

Hamilton will not lose any sleep if you think there are better drivers than him.

I put forward my opinion. It's people like you and pokerman who are interested in "winning arguments" since it seems you are incapable of allowing others to hold different opinions. I'm not challenging anyone else's views, but putting forward my own. So it's a bit rich for you to accuse others of things that you yourself are doing.

The facts do support Alonso being a tremendous qualifier. The facts also support Hamilton being a tremendous qualifier. There are no facts as yet presented which support the idea that Hamilton is definitely better than Alonso in that regard (or vice-versa, I might add). Anything further we do have is speculation. All I've done is express my doubts that Alonso is any worse than Hamilton in qualifying, but you guys are the ones trying to suppress any opinions different to your own


I don't have that much time nor english proficiency to be this effective and please use that mirror of yours.

pray tell which opinion I'm trying to suppress?

It helps if your accusations actually have some basis in fact


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:54 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I have 2015 6-4 to Button and 2016 11-3 to Alonso, I don't include wet qualifying, I don't itemise it so I would have to wade through it, I know I didn't include the qualifying were Alonso himself brought out the yellows on a drying track which basically put paid to Button's fastest lap.

I actually questioned what Alonso did, 7th after the first run then he made sure he was first on the track then basically spun off in front of all the other cars securing his position, I have to be happy that both drivers had a fair chance.


How on earth do you have Button winning 2015?.

Hungary was the quali you describe and it came after Austria where Button going off brought yellows for Alonso and he was knocked out in Q2. I'll bet you included that one. :-P

Regarding 2015:

Button - Australia, China, Monaco, Spa, Monza, Sochi
Alonso - Spain, Silverstone, Hungary, Singapore


For Button-(Malaysia missing)
Australia-Alonso wasn't even competing after his pre-season crash
Monaco-Electrical failure for Alonso in Q2
Malaysia-No idea why you've excluded it

For Alonso-(Jpn,US,Aut missing)
Japan seems fair enough to exclude from Alonso's though but Austria and US were fine to keep. Throwing out the gap in wet conditions I can understand but throwing out who won the h2h doesn't.

Revised mine to 6-5 and overall 21-8.

Australia should have been Malaysia, i got that mixed up with the race Alonso missed in 2016, Malaysia went to Button.

In Monaco Button was quicker than Alonso in Q1 when Alonso had no problems so I don't see why you excluded that?

Austria was a damp improving track so I excluded it, Japan you have said was wet so I excluded it, don't know why I would keep the h2h, USA was wet, they even had to cancel Q3 due to worsening conditions.

I'm very consistent in my methodology for instance this year I didn't use Monza despite Hamilton being over 2 seconds quicker than Bottas, being biased in any way makes the whole thing a waste of time.


You don't want to be biased but you include Monaco where Alonso broke down in but exclude 3 of Alonso's on the basis it was wet even though they both set their times in Austria on options. US was consistent conditions for both on full wets. Japan I thought was fair to exclude as JB got in bother with yellows, not because it was wet (It wasn't). But looking at it closely they both got screwed by the yellow flag and Alo went through by virtue of his better banker lap so I'm keeping it again.

Keep whatever scoreline you want if you're being that random but maybe don't correct others who don't. Excluding the difference in wet conditions makes sense, like the 2s Lewis had over Bottas as it can overly influence an avg throughout the year. Throwing out the h2h win as if Monza never happened at all or was somehow unfair is total nonsense,sorry.

Corrected to 7-5.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:47 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I've provided their head to head stats, which is as much as you've done. Not sure much else is relevant?

Well there you go when you don't realise the importance of other things like cross referencing.

I realise the usefulness of cross-referencing, but don't attach factual status to them when discussing fairly minor differences between drivers in a chain. Nothing - and I mean nothing - presented by anybody so far has conclusively proven that Alonso is inferior in qualifying to Hamilton

Well that's easy to do when you ignore everything that's presented to you including what Button says, somebody with actually hands on experience.

Nothing's been presented to me, aside from Button's opinion, which I have said I largely agree with but feel that Alonso has been underrated in qualifying. So I haven't ignored anything. Are we back to strawmen arguments now? I take it, BTW, that you fully agree with Button that Alonso is the more rounded driver and perhaps the toughest team mate Button has ever had (including Hamilton).

You largely agree so it's has to pass your validation test, your own personal opinion, you agree with Alonso being the tougher teammate but you disagree with Hamilton being the better qualifier so we are back to a common theme.

Why should I disagree with Button when the period includes Hamilton's terrible 2011 season?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 6th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:56 am 
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Posts: 26404
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
How on earth do you have Button winning 2015?.

Hungary was the quali you describe and it came after Austria where Button going off brought yellows for Alonso and he was knocked out in Q2. I'll bet you included that one. :-P

Regarding 2015:

Button - Australia, China, Monaco, Spa, Monza, Sochi
Alonso - Spain, Silverstone, Hungary, Singapore


For Button-(Malaysia missing)
Australia-Alonso wasn't even competing after his pre-season crash
Monaco-Electrical failure for Alonso in Q2
Malaysia-No idea why you've excluded it

For Alonso-(Jpn,US,Aut missing)
Japan seems fair enough to exclude from Alonso's though but Austria and US were fine to keep. Throwing out the gap in wet conditions I can understand but throwing out who won the h2h doesn't.

Revised mine to 6-5 and overall 21-8.

Australia should have been Malaysia, i got that mixed up with the race Alonso missed in 2016, Malaysia went to Button.

In Monaco Button was quicker than Alonso in Q1 when Alonso had no problems so I don't see why you excluded that?

Austria was a damp improving track so I excluded it, Japan you have said was wet so I excluded it, don't know why I would keep the h2h, USA was wet, they even had to cancel Q3 due to worsening conditions.

I'm very consistent in my methodology for instance this year I didn't use Monza despite Hamilton being over 2 seconds quicker than Bottas, being biased in any way makes the whole thing a waste of time.


You don't want to be biased but you include Monaco where Alonso broke down in but exclude 3 of Alonso's on the basis it was wet even though they both set their times in Austria on options. US was consistent conditions for both on full wets. Japan I thought was fair to exclude as JB got in bother with yellows, not because it was wet (It wasn't). But looking at it closely they both got screwed by the yellow flag and Alo went through by virtue of his better banker lap so I'm keeping it again.

Keep whatever scoreline you want if you're being that random but maybe don't correct others who don't. Excluding the difference in wet conditions makes sense, like the 2s Lewis had over Bottas as it can overly influence an avg throughout the year. Throwing out the h2h win as if Monza never happened at all or was somehow unfair is total nonsense,sorry.

Corrected to 7-5.

Button out qualified Alonso in Q1 at Monaco, so Alonso not being able to set a competitive time in Q2 is irrelevant.

Excluding wet qualifying is a constant without bias and I guess you see why I do this with the 2 second gap in the wet Monza qualifying, I don't pick and choose which wet qualifying I might want to keep like seemingly you do, yet I'm the one making random decisions?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 6th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:23 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Excluding wet qualifying is a constant without bias and I guess you see why I do this with the 2 second gap in the wet Monza qualifying, I don't pick and choose which wet qualifying I might want to keep like seemingly you do, yet I'm the one making random decisions?

Surely you can see that just because your methodology is consistent doesn't mean everyone agrees with it.

Excluding the gap from wet qualifying makes perfect sense; it's usually exaggerated, and tends to tilt the average badly. I don't really see an argument for excluding the head-to-head result, however, unless there were circumstances that prevented the drivers from both setting a time. To use your Bottas example, it seems silly to me to not give Hamilton the head-to-head point when he was obviously quicker.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:01 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I realise the usefulness of cross-referencing, but don't attach factual status to them when discussing fairly minor differences between drivers in a chain. Nothing - and I mean nothing - presented by anybody so far has conclusively proven that Alonso is inferior in qualifying to Hamilton

Well that's easy to do when you ignore everything that's presented to you including what Button says, somebody with actually hands on experience.

Nothing's been presented to me, aside from Button's opinion, which I have said I largely agree with but feel that Alonso has been underrated in qualifying. So I haven't ignored anything. Are we back to strawmen arguments now? I take it, BTW, that you fully agree with Button that Alonso is the more rounded driver and perhaps the toughest team mate Button has ever had (including Hamilton).

You largely agree so it's has to pass your validation test, your own personal opinion, you agree with Alonso being the tougher teammate but you disagree with Hamilton being the better qualifier so we are back to a common theme.

Why should I disagree with Button when the period includes Hamilton's terrible 2011 season?


Poker, aren't you kind of "cherry-picking" Button's comments... picking out those that make Lewis look best and making them "gospel" and then diminishing those things he said that support a different driver? It sure appears that way from what i have read here.

I am curious about the question that Zoue asked. Do you agree with Button's apparent belief that Alonso is "the more rounded driver and "perhaps the toughest teammate that Button has ever had"? It is a legit question, is it not?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:36 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well there you go when you don't realise the importance of other things like cross referencing.

I realise the usefulness of cross-referencing, but don't attach factual status to them when discussing fairly minor differences between drivers in a chain. Nothing - and I mean nothing - presented by anybody so far has conclusively proven that Alonso is inferior in qualifying to Hamilton

Well that's easy to do when you ignore everything that's presented to you including what Button says, somebody with actually hands on experience.

Nothing's been presented to me, aside from Button's opinion, which I have said I largely agree with but feel that Alonso has been underrated in qualifying. So I haven't ignored anything. Are we back to strawmen arguments now? I take it, BTW, that you fully agree with Button that Alonso is the more rounded driver and perhaps the toughest team mate Button has ever had (including Hamilton).

You largely agree so it's has to pass your validation test, your own personal opinion, you agree with Alonso being the tougher teammate but you disagree with Hamilton being the better qualifier so we are back to a common theme.

Why should I disagree with Button when the period includes Hamilton's terrible 2011 season?

so you agree nothing's been presented to me then? So what you said before wasn't true?

OK, so you agree that Alonso is the more rounded driver than Hamilton, fair enough. At least we can agree on something.

You need to be more able to understand nuance. I said right from the beginning that I wasn't ruling it out, but that I wasn't convinced that Alonso was a step behind in qualifying. I still don't get why this is such a criminal offence. You're acting like I'm making out that Hamilton is poor, which I've not even come close to saying.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:38 am 
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Posts: 23025
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Regarding 2015:

Button - Australia, China, Monaco, Spa, Monza, Sochi
Alonso - Spain, Silverstone, Hungary, Singapore


For Button-(Malaysia missing)
Australia-Alonso wasn't even competing after his pre-season crash
Monaco-Electrical failure for Alonso in Q2
Malaysia-No idea why you've excluded it

For Alonso-(Jpn,US,Aut missing)
Japan seems fair enough to exclude from Alonso's though but Austria and US were fine to keep. Throwing out the gap in wet conditions I can understand but throwing out who won the h2h doesn't.

Revised mine to 6-5 and overall 21-8.

Australia should have been Malaysia, i got that mixed up with the race Alonso missed in 2016, Malaysia went to Button.

In Monaco Button was quicker than Alonso in Q1 when Alonso had no problems so I don't see why you excluded that?

Austria was a damp improving track so I excluded it, Japan you have said was wet so I excluded it, don't know why I would keep the h2h, USA was wet, they even had to cancel Q3 due to worsening conditions.

I'm very consistent in my methodology for instance this year I didn't use Monza despite Hamilton being over 2 seconds quicker than Bottas, being biased in any way makes the whole thing a waste of time.


You don't want to be biased but you include Monaco where Alonso broke down in but exclude 3 of Alonso's on the basis it was wet even though they both set their times in Austria on options. US was consistent conditions for both on full wets. Japan I thought was fair to exclude as JB got in bother with yellows, not because it was wet (It wasn't). But looking at it closely they both got screwed by the yellow flag and Alo went through by virtue of his better banker lap so I'm keeping it again.

Keep whatever scoreline you want if you're being that random but maybe don't correct others who don't. Excluding the difference in wet conditions makes sense, like the 2s Lewis had over Bottas as it can overly influence an avg throughout the year. Throwing out the h2h win as if Monza never happened at all or was somehow unfair is total nonsense,sorry.

Corrected to 7-5.

Button out qualified Alonso in Q1 at Monaco, so Alonso not being able to set a competitive time in Q2 is irrelevant.

Excluding wet qualifying is a constant without bias and I guess you see why I do this with the 2 second gap in the wet Monza qualifying, I don't pick and choose which wet qualifying I might want to keep like seemingly you do, yet I'm the one making random decisions?

BIB: of course it is relevant. How many times do drivers post their best time in Q1? I'm surprised you think that's in any way representative of their true speed


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:20 am 
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@pokerman

Just say Alonso is the best and be done with it.
It is now the second time they are doing that request.
They are OK with comments that put Alonso in a much better light than Hamilton, but will do gymnastics to prove Button is wrong when he says something positive about Hamilton. No wonder the same people keep posting the same stuff day and night.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:23 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
@pokerman

Just say Alonso is the best and be done with it.
It is now the second time they are doing that request.
They are OK with comments that put Alonso in a much better light than Hamilton, but will do gymnastics to prove Button is wrong when he says something positive about Hamilton. No wonder the same people keep posting the same stuff day and night.


Can you indicate anyone who is saying Alonso is the best at qualifying?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:49 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
@pokerman

Just say Alonso is the best and be done with it.
It is now the second time they are doing that request.
They are OK with comments that put Alonso in a much better light than Hamilton, but will do gymnastics to prove Button is wrong when he says something positive about Hamilton. No wonder the same people keep posting the same stuff day and night.


Can you indicate anyone who is saying Alonso is the best at qualifying?


This thread scores incredibly high on the straw man scale. :nod:

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:13 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Excluding wet qualifying is a constant without bias and I guess you see why I do this with the 2 second gap in the wet Monza qualifying, I don't pick and choose which wet qualifying I might want to keep like seemingly you do, yet I'm the one making random decisions?

Surely you can see that just because your methodology is consistent doesn't mean everyone agrees with it.

Excluding the gap from wet qualifying makes perfect sense; it's usually exaggerated, and tends to tilt the average badly. I don't really see an argument for excluding the head-to-head result, however, unless there were circumstances that prevented the drivers from both setting a time. To use your Bottas example, it seems silly to me to not give Hamilton the head-to-head point when he was obviously quicker.

I appreciate you understand my methodology but you either include wet qualifying or you don't, you can't be half pregnant after all.

I'm sure that Vettel would have appreciated a season of wet qualifying against Ricciardo in 2014, it totally changes the dynamic of what essentially is carried out in dry conditions about 90% of the time.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 6th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:17 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I realise the usefulness of cross-referencing, but don't attach factual status to them when discussing fairly minor differences between drivers in a chain. Nothing - and I mean nothing - presented by anybody so far has conclusively proven that Alonso is inferior in qualifying to Hamilton

Well that's easy to do when you ignore everything that's presented to you including what Button says, somebody with actually hands on experience.

Nothing's been presented to me, aside from Button's opinion, which I have said I largely agree with but feel that Alonso has been underrated in qualifying. So I haven't ignored anything. Are we back to strawmen arguments now? I take it, BTW, that you fully agree with Button that Alonso is the more rounded driver and perhaps the toughest team mate Button has ever had (including Hamilton).

You largely agree so it's has to pass your validation test, your own personal opinion, you agree with Alonso being the tougher teammate but you disagree with Hamilton being the better qualifier so we are back to a common theme.

Why should I disagree with Button when the period includes Hamilton's terrible 2011 season?


Poker, aren't you kind of "cherry-picking" Button's comments... picking out those that make Lewis look best and making them "gospel" and then diminishing those things he said that support a different driver? It sure appears that way from what i have read here.

I am curious about the question that Zoue asked. Do you agree with Button's apparent belief that Alonso is "the more rounded driver and "perhaps the toughest teammate that Button has ever had"? It is a legit question, is it not?

Did I not answer that in my last paragraph?

The only people that seem to have a problem with what Button said seem to be the ones who wouldn't be fans of Hamilton, apparently Button was being to nice to Hamilton?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 6th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Posts: 26404
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I realise the usefulness of cross-referencing, but don't attach factual status to them when discussing fairly minor differences between drivers in a chain. Nothing - and I mean nothing - presented by anybody so far has conclusively proven that Alonso is inferior in qualifying to Hamilton

Well that's easy to do when you ignore everything that's presented to you including what Button says, somebody with actually hands on experience.

Nothing's been presented to me, aside from Button's opinion, which I have said I largely agree with but feel that Alonso has been underrated in qualifying. So I haven't ignored anything. Are we back to strawmen arguments now? I take it, BTW, that you fully agree with Button that Alonso is the more rounded driver and perhaps the toughest team mate Button has ever had (including Hamilton).

You largely agree so it's has to pass your validation test, your own personal opinion, you agree with Alonso being the tougher teammate but you disagree with Hamilton being the better qualifier so we are back to a common theme.

Why should I disagree with Button when the period includes Hamilton's terrible 2011 season?

so you agree nothing's been presented to me then? So what you said before wasn't true?

OK, so you agree that Alonso is the more rounded driver than Hamilton, fair enough. At least we can agree on something.

You need to be more able to understand nuance. I said right from the beginning that I wasn't ruling it out, but that I wasn't convinced that Alonso was a step behind in qualifying. I still don't get why this is such a criminal offence. You're acting like I'm making out that Hamilton is poor, which I've not even come close to saying.

Oh I think things have been presented to you but you just dismiss such things as being rubbish.

What I see in countless threads is a theme of Hamilton being overrated, but no not poor as such.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 6th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:33 pm 
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If only it were possible for some within a group to all be quite capable at a certain task. And that although one member of the group might be better than the others at that task it doesn't put them a full step above the rest.

Oh, it would be so grand if you could compare one person to another without it being seen as diminishing the second person.

To be freed from the rigid divisions of color in a prisms light to see shades of grey that blend from one to the other.

But alas, every choice is a binary one.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:47 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
For Button-(Malaysia missing)
Australia-Alonso wasn't even competing after his pre-season crash
Monaco-Electrical failure for Alonso in Q2
Malaysia-No idea why you've excluded it

For Alonso-(Jpn,US,Aut missing)
Japan seems fair enough to exclude from Alonso's though but Austria and US were fine to keep. Throwing out the gap in wet conditions I can understand but throwing out who won the h2h doesn't.

Revised mine to 6-5 and overall 21-8.

Australia should have been Malaysia, i got that mixed up with the race Alonso missed in 2016, Malaysia went to Button.

In Monaco Button was quicker than Alonso in Q1 when Alonso had no problems so I don't see why you excluded that?

Austria was a damp improving track so I excluded it, Japan you have said was wet so I excluded it, don't know why I would keep the h2h, USA was wet, they even had to cancel Q3 due to worsening conditions.

I'm very consistent in my methodology for instance this year I didn't use Monza despite Hamilton being over 2 seconds quicker than Bottas, being biased in any way makes the whole thing a waste of time.


You don't want to be biased but you include Monaco where Alonso broke down in but exclude 3 of Alonso's on the basis it was wet even though they both set their times in Austria on options. US was consistent conditions for both on full wets. Japan I thought was fair to exclude as JB got in bother with yellows, not because it was wet (It wasn't). But looking at it closely they both got screwed by the yellow flag and Alo went through by virtue of his better banker lap so I'm keeping it again.

Keep whatever scoreline you want if you're being that random but maybe don't correct others who don't. Excluding the difference in wet conditions makes sense, like the 2s Lewis had over Bottas as it can overly influence an avg throughout the year. Throwing out the h2h win as if Monza never happened at all or was somehow unfair is total nonsense,sorry.

Corrected to 7-5.

Button out qualified Alonso in Q1 at Monaco, so Alonso not being able to set a competitive time in Q2 is irrelevant.

Excluding wet qualifying is a constant without bias and I guess you see why I do this with the 2 second gap in the wet Monza qualifying, I don't pick and choose which wet qualifying I might want to keep like seemingly you do, yet I'm the one making random decisions?

BIB: of course it is relevant. How many times do drivers post their best time in Q1? I'm surprised you think that's in any way representative of their true speed

So the slowest driver was merely cruising through Q1, both McLaren drivers were because the car is so fast?

If Alonso had failed to qualify for Q2 we still dismiss Q1 times because he would have gone so much faster in Q2, we can theorise what a driver may have done as opposed to what he actually did achieve?

You keep trying to pull apart any systems that try to establish driver performance, systems that may deliver results that you don't like.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 6th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:52 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
@pokerman

Just say Alonso is the best and be done with it.
It is now the second time they are doing that request.
They are OK with comments that put Alonso in a much better light than Hamilton, but will do gymnastics to prove Button is wrong when he says something positive about Hamilton. No wonder the same people keep posting the same stuff day and night.

Yep and I'm sure some people had got the popcorn ready for the deluge from Hamilton fans because Button said something uncomplimentary about him in respect to Alonso, but instead what did we get?

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2014: Champion
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:56 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
@pokerman

Just say Alonso is the best and be done with it.
It is now the second time they are doing that request.
They are OK with comments that put Alonso in a much better light than Hamilton, but will do gymnastics to prove Button is wrong when he says something positive about Hamilton. No wonder the same people keep posting the same stuff day and night.


Can you indicate anyone who is saying Alonso is the best at qualifying?

Did anybody say that Alonso was not Button's toughest teammate, do you not see the difference?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Regarding 2015:

Button - Australia, China, Monaco, Spa, Monza, Sochi
Alonso - Spain, Silverstone, Hungary, Singapore


For Button-(Malaysia missing)
Australia-Alonso wasn't even competing after his pre-season crash
Monaco-Electrical failure for Alonso in Q2
Malaysia-No idea why you've excluded it

For Alonso-(Jpn,US,Aut missing)
Japan seems fair enough to exclude from Alonso's though but Austria and US were fine to keep. Throwing out the gap in wet conditions I can understand but throwing out who won the h2h doesn't.

Revised mine to 6-5 and overall 21-8.

Australia should have been Malaysia, i got that mixed up with the race Alonso missed in 2016, Malaysia went to Button.

In Monaco Button was quicker than Alonso in Q1 when Alonso had no problems so I don't see why you excluded that?

Austria was a damp improving track so I excluded it, Japan you have said was wet so I excluded it, don't know why I would keep the h2h, USA was wet, they even had to cancel Q3 due to worsening conditions.

I'm very consistent in my methodology for instance this year I didn't use Monza despite Hamilton being over 2 seconds quicker than Bottas, being biased in any way makes the whole thing a waste of time.


You don't want to be biased but you include Monaco where Alonso broke down in but exclude 3 of Alonso's on the basis it was wet even though they both set their times in Austria on options. US was consistent conditions for both on full wets. Japan I thought was fair to exclude as JB got in bother with yellows, not because it was wet (It wasn't). But looking at it closely they both got screwed by the yellow flag and Alo went through by virtue of his better banker lap so I'm keeping it again.

Keep whatever scoreline you want if you're being that random but maybe don't correct others who don't. Excluding the difference in wet conditions makes sense, like the 2s Lewis had over Bottas as it can overly influence an avg throughout the year. Throwing out the h2h win as if Monza never happened at all or was somehow unfair is total nonsense,sorry.

Corrected to 7-5.

Button out qualified Alonso in Q1 at Monaco, so Alonso not being able to set a competitive time in Q2 is irrelevant.

Excluding wet qualifying is a constant without bias and I guess you see why I do this with the 2 second gap in the wet Monza qualifying, I don't pick and choose which wet qualifying I might want to keep like seemingly you do, yet I'm the one making random decisions?


And you know either were going full tilt in Q1 because?. How many times do we see a driver being slower in Q1 or Q2 but faster in Q2 or Q3?. Look at Malaysia, Bottas nearly 2ths quicker in Q2 than Lewis but in Q3 he was 7ths slower, nearly a second worth of time swinging between them.

The fact is Alonso wasn't able to complete his qualifying session through no fault of his own so just giving it to Button is total nonsense.

Much like throwing out results for no reason. As it's been pointed out excluding the result when working out the avg gap makes sense as it can be unrepresentative of the normal gap and skew the average. Throwing out the h2h result on its own makes no sense at all if both drivers have no issues. In your world there is no best wet qualifier, it's silly and it isn't me picking and choosing which ones to throw out, I'm being 100% consistent there.

You on the other hand have thrown out half of Alonso's wins and given JB a win in a session Alonso's car broke down. You also threw out from 2016 a session Alonso ruined JB's run with a yellow but left it in when JB ruined Alonso's with a yellow in Austria.

It just seems you're rather desperate to find a way to make it closer by being very inconsistent while accusing others of doing the same.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:22 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
For Button-(Malaysia missing)
Australia-Alonso wasn't even competing after his pre-season crash
Monaco-Electrical failure for Alonso in Q2
Malaysia-No idea why you've excluded it

For Alonso-(Jpn,US,Aut missing)
Japan seems fair enough to exclude from Alonso's though but Austria and US were fine to keep. Throwing out the gap in wet conditions I can understand but throwing out who won the h2h doesn't.

Revised mine to 6-5 and overall 21-8.

Australia should have been Malaysia, i got that mixed up with the race Alonso missed in 2016, Malaysia went to Button.

In Monaco Button was quicker than Alonso in Q1 when Alonso had no problems so I don't see why you excluded that?

Austria was a damp improving track so I excluded it, Japan you have said was wet so I excluded it, don't know why I would keep the h2h, USA was wet, they even had to cancel Q3 due to worsening conditions.

I'm very consistent in my methodology for instance this year I didn't use Monza despite Hamilton being over 2 seconds quicker than Bottas, being biased in any way makes the whole thing a waste of time.


You don't want to be biased but you include Monaco where Alonso broke down in but exclude 3 of Alonso's on the basis it was wet even though they both set their times in Austria on options. US was consistent conditions for both on full wets. Japan I thought was fair to exclude as JB got in bother with yellows, not because it was wet (It wasn't). But looking at it closely they both got screwed by the yellow flag and Alo went through by virtue of his better banker lap so I'm keeping it again.

Keep whatever scoreline you want if you're being that random but maybe don't correct others who don't. Excluding the difference in wet conditions makes sense, like the 2s Lewis had over Bottas as it can overly influence an avg throughout the year. Throwing out the h2h win as if Monza never happened at all or was somehow unfair is total nonsense,sorry.

Corrected to 7-5.

Button out qualified Alonso in Q1 at Monaco, so Alonso not being able to set a competitive time in Q2 is irrelevant.

Excluding wet qualifying is a constant without bias and I guess you see why I do this with the 2 second gap in the wet Monza qualifying, I don't pick and choose which wet qualifying I might want to keep like seemingly you do, yet I'm the one making random decisions?


And you know either were going full tilt in Q1 because?. How many times do we see a driver being slower in Q1 or Q2 but faster in Q2 or Q3?. Look at Malaysia, Bottas nearly 2ths quicker in Q2 than Lewis but in Q3 he was 7ths slower, nearly a second worth of time swinging between them.

The fact is Alonso wasn't able to complete his qualifying session through no fault of his own so just giving it to Button is total nonsense.

Much like throwing out results for no reason. As it's been pointed out excluding the result when working out the avg gap makes sense as it can be unrepresentative of the normal gap and skew the average. Throwing out the h2h result on its own makes no sense at all if both drivers have no issues. In your world there is no best wet qualifier, it's silly and it isn't me picking and choosing which ones to throw out, I'm being 100% consistent there.

You on the other hand have thrown out half of Alonso's wins and given JB a win in a session Alonso's car broke down. You also threw out from 2016 a session Alonso ruined JB's run with a yellow but left it in when JB ruined Alonso's with a yellow in Austria.

It just seems you're rather desperate to find a way to make it closer by being very inconsistent while accusing others of doing the same.

Comparing cars that can cruise through Q1 with cars that are fighting night and day to get through Q1.

My system is consistent for all drivers that compete in F1 even if it was Bill and Ben the flower pot men competing against one another and is not transfixed on any particular driver pairing, Hamilton is supreme in the wet yet I totally ignore perhaps his greatest strength?

I've been doing this for years long before I posted on here to try and better my own understanding of who is out and out the fastest driver in F1, fudging results to suit what I want to see is basically totally wasting my time.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Australia should have been Malaysia, i got that mixed up with the race Alonso missed in 2016, Malaysia went to Button.

In Monaco Button was quicker than Alonso in Q1 when Alonso had no problems so I don't see why you excluded that?

Austria was a damp improving track so I excluded it, Japan you have said was wet so I excluded it, don't know why I would keep the h2h, USA was wet, they even had to cancel Q3 due to worsening conditions.

I'm very consistent in my methodology for instance this year I didn't use Monza despite Hamilton being over 2 seconds quicker than Bottas, being biased in any way makes the whole thing a waste of time.


You don't want to be biased but you include Monaco where Alonso broke down in but exclude 3 of Alonso's on the basis it was wet even though they both set their times in Austria on options. US was consistent conditions for both on full wets. Japan I thought was fair to exclude as JB got in bother with yellows, not because it was wet (It wasn't). But looking at it closely they both got screwed by the yellow flag and Alo went through by virtue of his better banker lap so I'm keeping it again.

Keep whatever scoreline you want if you're being that random but maybe don't correct others who don't. Excluding the difference in wet conditions makes sense, like the 2s Lewis had over Bottas as it can overly influence an avg throughout the year. Throwing out the h2h win as if Monza never happened at all or was somehow unfair is total nonsense,sorry.

Corrected to 7-5.

Button out qualified Alonso in Q1 at Monaco, so Alonso not being able to set a competitive time in Q2 is irrelevant.

Excluding wet qualifying is a constant without bias and I guess you see why I do this with the 2 second gap in the wet Monza qualifying, I don't pick and choose which wet qualifying I might want to keep like seemingly you do, yet I'm the one making random decisions?


And you know either were going full tilt in Q1 because?. How many times do we see a driver being slower in Q1 or Q2 but faster in Q2 or Q3?. Look at Malaysia, Bottas nearly 2ths quicker in Q2 than Lewis but in Q3 he was 7ths slower, nearly a second worth of time swinging between them.

The fact is Alonso wasn't able to complete his qualifying session through no fault of his own so just giving it to Button is total nonsense.

Much like throwing out results for no reason. As it's been pointed out excluding the result when working out the avg gap makes sense as it can be unrepresentative of the normal gap and skew the average. Throwing out the h2h result on its own makes no sense at all if both drivers have no issues. In your world there is no best wet qualifier, it's silly and it isn't me picking and choosing which ones to throw out, I'm being 100% consistent there.

You on the other hand have thrown out half of Alonso's wins and given JB a win in a session Alonso's car broke down. You also threw out from 2016 a session Alonso ruined JB's run with a yellow but left it in when JB ruined Alonso's with a yellow in Austria.

It just seems you're rather desperate to find a way to make it closer by being very inconsistent while accusing others of doing the same.

Comparing cars that can cruise through Q1 with cars that are fighting night and day to get through Q1.

My system is consistent for all drivers that compete in F1 even if it was Bill and Ben the flower pot men competing against one another and is not transfixed on any particular driver pairing, Hamilton is supreme in the wet yet I totally ignore perhaps his greatest strength?

I've been doing this for years long before I posted on here to try and better my own understanding of who is out and out the fastest driver in F1, fudging results to suit what I want to see is basically totally wasting my time.


And yet that's exactly what you're doing with Monaco 2015,Hungary 2016 and Austria 2016 especially. The McLaren was easily going to Q3 that day, only yellows prevented JB getting there so no they weren't fighting night and day to get out of Q1 at Monaco.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:43 pm 
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I had previously considered Hamilton probably the best all round driver but I agree Button would know best so I'll have to change my pick for the best driver.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Did anybody say that Alonso was not Button's toughest teammate, do you not see the difference?


Oh stop this train wreck already. This whole thing started with Zoue expressing the perfectly fine statement: I can see where he's coming from on that, although generally speaking I think that Alonso is vastly underrated as a qualifier.

That's all it was. But once again somehow you saw it as a slight on Hamilton and once again you mounted your "must defend Hamilton"-horse when Hamilton was never attacked in the first place.
And now you and pullrod have started projecting as if somehow Zoue is not allowing you to have your opinion whereas it was clearly you who took offense to his opinion.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:53 pm 
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I love threads like this.

Jenson says Lewis lacked pace in these races but I know it was only these two... yeah, because watching from your armchair you know so much more than a guy* in the other car.

And why do people go 'Oh my God Jenson's just talking smack about Hamilton'. Does it not occur to people that of all the people the readers might want to read about, 3x WDC world Champion Lewis Hamilton might be one. What you think the world at large is desperate to know Jenson's thoughts on Jacques Villeneuve or Rubens Barichello???


*Sorry, not just a 'guy' a Wold Champion.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:49 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
I had previously considered Hamilton probably the best all round driver but I agree Button would know best so I'll have to change my pick for the best driver.

You're making a lot of assumptions.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:52 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
You don't want to be biased but you include Monaco where Alonso broke down in but exclude 3 of Alonso's on the basis it was wet even though they both set their times in Austria on options. US was consistent conditions for both on full wets. Japan I thought was fair to exclude as JB got in bother with yellows, not because it was wet (It wasn't). But looking at it closely they both got screwed by the yellow flag and Alo went through by virtue of his better banker lap so I'm keeping it again.

Keep whatever scoreline you want if you're being that random but maybe don't correct others who don't. Excluding the difference in wet conditions makes sense, like the 2s Lewis had over Bottas as it can overly influence an avg throughout the year. Throwing out the h2h win as if Monza never happened at all or was somehow unfair is total nonsense,sorry.

Corrected to 7-5.

Button out qualified Alonso in Q1 at Monaco, so Alonso not being able to set a competitive time in Q2 is irrelevant.

Excluding wet qualifying is a constant without bias and I guess you see why I do this with the 2 second gap in the wet Monza qualifying, I don't pick and choose which wet qualifying I might want to keep like seemingly you do, yet I'm the one making random decisions?


And you know either were going full tilt in Q1 because?. How many times do we see a driver being slower in Q1 or Q2 but faster in Q2 or Q3?. Look at Malaysia, Bottas nearly 2ths quicker in Q2 than Lewis but in Q3 he was 7ths slower, nearly a second worth of time swinging between them.

The fact is Alonso wasn't able to complete his qualifying session through no fault of his own so just giving it to Button is total nonsense.

Much like throwing out results for no reason. As it's been pointed out excluding the result when working out the avg gap makes sense as it can be unrepresentative of the normal gap and skew the average. Throwing out the h2h result on its own makes no sense at all if both drivers have no issues. In your world there is no best wet qualifier, it's silly and it isn't me picking and choosing which ones to throw out, I'm being 100% consistent there.

You on the other hand have thrown out half of Alonso's wins and given JB a win in a session Alonso's car broke down. You also threw out from 2016 a session Alonso ruined JB's run with a yellow but left it in when JB ruined Alonso's with a yellow in Austria.

It just seems you're rather desperate to find a way to make it closer by being very inconsistent while accusing others of doing the same.

Comparing cars that can cruise through Q1 with cars that are fighting night and day to get through Q1.

My system is consistent for all drivers that compete in F1 even if it was Bill and Ben the flower pot men competing against one another and is not transfixed on any particular driver pairing, Hamilton is supreme in the wet yet I totally ignore perhaps his greatest strength?

I've been doing this for years long before I posted on here to try and better my own understanding of who is out and out the fastest driver in F1, fudging results to suit what I want to see is basically totally wasting my time.


And yet that's exactly what you're doing with Monaco 2015,Hungary 2016 and Austria 2016 especially. The McLaren was easily going to Q3 that day, only yellows prevented JB getting there so no they weren't fighting night and day to get out of Q1 at Monaco.

A comfortable Q3 capable car isn't the slowest car to qualify into Q2 like Alonso did, if not for Bottas being unable to start his last lap Alonso may not even make Q2?

Only yellow flags prevented Button from getting into Q3?

When his first lap was not good enough and he basically he was in a dog fight with the other cars around him of similar speed, this is a strange narrative of McLaren having a car good enough to cruise through qualifying sessions like we see with the leading teams, if Bottas had done his lap then you are looking at Button making Q2 by 3 tenths.

Hungary and Austria I already explained and on a drying track I actually excluded every lap that Alonso ruined not just Button's, I was never going to use the previous laps on an improving track anyway, that comes under wet conditions.

Discussing 2016 was a mistake on my part anyway as I got confused with the year we were supposed to be discussing 2015, 2016 would be another chapter again.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:55 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
I had previously considered Hamilton probably the best all round driver but I agree Button would know best so I'll have to change my pick for the best driver.

Given the period being covered who had Hamilton as the best all round driver in the first place, I didn't?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:58 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Did anybody say that Alonso was not Button's toughest teammate, do you not see the difference?


Oh stop this train wreck already. This whole thing started with Zoue expressing the perfectly fine statement: I can see where he's coming from on that, although generally speaking I think that Alonso is vastly underrated as a qualifier.

That's all it was. But once again somehow you saw it as a slight on Hamilton and once again you mounted your "must defend Hamilton"-horse when Hamilton was never attacked in the first place.
And now you and pullrod have started projecting as if somehow Zoue is not allowing you to have your opinion whereas it was clearly you who took offense to his opinion.

I jumped on it because it's thread after thread of reading how overrated that Hamilton is, any credit has to be taken away.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:00 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
I love threads like this.

Jenson says Lewis lacked pace in these races but I know it was only these two... yeah, because watching from your armchair you know so much more than a guy* in the other car.

And why do people go 'Oh my God Jenson's just talking smack about Hamilton'. Does it not occur to people that of all the people the readers might want to read about, 3x WDC world Champion Lewis Hamilton might be one. What you think the world at large is desperate to know Jenson's thoughts on Jacques Villeneuve or Rubens Barichello???


*Sorry, not just a 'guy' a Wold Champion.

Who is questioning what Button said about Hamilton in respect to Alonso?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:03 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
I had previously considered Hamilton probably the best all round driver but I agree Button would know best so I'll have to change my pick for the best driver.

Given the period being covered who had Hamilton as the best all round driver in the first place, I didn't?


Ah, so only the period they were teamed up is relevant. Then why object when someone is commenting on Alonso's overall qualifying capabilities?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:05 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Did anybody say that Alonso was not Button's toughest teammate, do you not see the difference?


Oh stop this train wreck already. This whole thing started with Zoue expressing the perfectly fine statement: I can see where he's coming from on that, although generally speaking I think that Alonso is vastly underrated as a qualifier.

That's all it was. But once again somehow you saw it as a slight on Hamilton and once again you mounted your "must defend Hamilton"-horse when Hamilton was never attacked in the first place.
And now you and pullrod have started projecting as if somehow Zoue is not allowing you to have your opinion whereas it was clearly you who took offense to his opinion.

I jumped on it because it's thread after thread of reading how overrated that Hamilton is, any credit has to be taken away.


No. That's only what YOU make of it. Nothing in that statement took anything away from Hamilton.

You have a serious persecution complex when it comes to Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:12 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
I had previously considered Hamilton probably the best all round driver but I agree Button would know best so I'll have to change my pick for the best driver.

Given the period being covered who had Hamilton as the best all round driver in the first place, I didn't?


Ah, so only the period they were teamed up is relevant. Then why object when someone is commenting on Alonso's overall qualifying capabilities?

It's called inherent speed, you confuse that with who might be considered the best driver, Alonso himself says he may not be the fastest driver over 1 lap but he does consider himself to be the best driver.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:19 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Did anybody say that Alonso was not Button's toughest teammate, do you not see the difference?


Oh stop this train wreck already. This whole thing started with Zoue expressing the perfectly fine statement: I can see where he's coming from on that, although generally speaking I think that Alonso is vastly underrated as a qualifier.

That's all it was. But once again somehow you saw it as a slight on Hamilton and once again you mounted your "must defend Hamilton"-horse when Hamilton was never attacked in the first place.
And now you and pullrod have started projecting as if somehow Zoue is not allowing you to have your opinion whereas it was clearly you who took offense to his opinion.

I jumped on it because it's thread after thread of reading how overrated that Hamilton is, any credit has to be taken away.


No. That's only what YOU make of it. Nothing in that statement took anything away from Hamilton.

You have a serious persecution complex when it comes to Hamilton.

No, comment was made when Button said that Hamilton was a better qualifier than Alonso, as in Button was under rating Alonso, of course perfectly happy with Button saying that Alonso was a tougher teammate than Hamilton, and this is not isolated comment in respect to Hamilton with Vettel competing against him in an inferior car, a thread that I have kept away from, but I'm sure I have a right to comment now and again.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:35 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Button out qualified Alonso in Q1 at Monaco, so Alonso not being able to set a competitive time in Q2 is irrelevant.

Excluding wet qualifying is a constant without bias and I guess you see why I do this with the 2 second gap in the wet Monza qualifying, I don't pick and choose which wet qualifying I might want to keep like seemingly you do, yet I'm the one making random decisions?


And you know either were going full tilt in Q1 because?. How many times do we see a driver being slower in Q1 or Q2 but faster in Q2 or Q3?. Look at Malaysia, Bottas nearly 2ths quicker in Q2 than Lewis but in Q3 he was 7ths slower, nearly a second worth of time swinging between them.

The fact is Alonso wasn't able to complete his qualifying session through no fault of his own so just giving it to Button is total nonsense.

Much like throwing out results for no reason. As it's been pointed out excluding the result when working out the avg gap makes sense as it can be unrepresentative of the normal gap and skew the average. Throwing out the h2h result on its own makes no sense at all if both drivers have no issues. In your world there is no best wet qualifier, it's silly and it isn't me picking and choosing which ones to throw out, I'm being 100% consistent there.

You on the other hand have thrown out half of Alonso's wins and given JB a win in a session Alonso's car broke down. You also threw out from 2016 a session Alonso ruined JB's run with a yellow but left it in when JB ruined Alonso's with a yellow in Austria.

It just seems you're rather desperate to find a way to make it closer by being very inconsistent while accusing others of doing the same.

Comparing cars that can cruise through Q1 with cars that are fighting night and day to get through Q1.

My system is consistent for all drivers that compete in F1 even if it was Bill and Ben the flower pot men competing against one another and is not transfixed on any particular driver pairing, Hamilton is supreme in the wet yet I totally ignore perhaps his greatest strength?

I've been doing this for years long before I posted on here to try and better my own understanding of who is out and out the fastest driver in F1, fudging results to suit what I want to see is basically totally wasting my time.


And yet that's exactly what you're doing with Monaco 2015,Hungary 2016 and Austria 2016 especially. The McLaren was easily going to Q3 that day, only yellows prevented JB getting there so no they weren't fighting night and day to get out of Q1 at Monaco.

A comfortable Q3 capable car isn't the slowest car to qualify into Q2 like Alonso did, if not for Bottas being unable to start his last lap Alonso may not even make Q2?

Only yellow flags prevented Button from getting into Q3?

When his first lap was not good enough and he basically he was in a dog fight with the other cars around him of similar speed, this is a strange narrative of McLaren having a car good enough to cruise through qualifying sessions like we see with the leading teams, if Bottas had done his lap then you are looking at Button making Q2 by 3 tenths.

Hungary and Austria I already explained and on a drying track I actually excluded every lap that Alonso ruined not just Button's, I was never going to use the previous laps on an improving track anyway, that comes under wet conditions.

Discussing 2016 was a mistake on my part anyway as I got confused with the year we were supposed to be discussing 2015, 2016 would be another chapter again.


He made it so job done and we don't judge a car on the slower time do we?. Button was 8th in Q1, yes the car was Q3 capable,quite clearly. And yes Button would have made Q3 without the yellow in S1, he lost 0.5 in that sector but only missed out by 0.1.

No-one claimed it could cruise through like the leading teams, just that we've no idea Alonso was going full tilt in Q1 as the car was clearly capable of Q3 on that circuit.

You explained Austria and Hungary badly. Both divers ruined the last flying lap of their team mate by bringing out a yellow. That's literally all you need to know but somehow for you Buttons is okay but Alonso's not. Much like counting Monaco despite Alonso breaking down, throwing out a dry Japan and an Austria 2015 where they both had a run on options.

You're all over the place throwing out Alonso's for any excuse but you're keeping near identical scenarios and even one of them where one broke down for Button. It throws a huge question mark over your other figures as I've no idea what random reasons you've used or sessions you've excluded or included.

Example what did you do for Quali this year in Austria for Lewis-Bottas or Lewis-Nico in Spa 2016?.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:42 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well that's easy to do when you ignore everything that's presented to you including what Button says, somebody with actually hands on experience.

Nothing's been presented to me, aside from Button's opinion, which I have said I largely agree with but feel that Alonso has been underrated in qualifying. So I haven't ignored anything. Are we back to strawmen arguments now? I take it, BTW, that you fully agree with Button that Alonso is the more rounded driver and perhaps the toughest team mate Button has ever had (including Hamilton).

You largely agree so it's has to pass your validation test, your own personal opinion, you agree with Alonso being the tougher teammate but you disagree with Hamilton being the better qualifier so we are back to a common theme.

Why should I disagree with Button when the period includes Hamilton's terrible 2011 season?

so you agree nothing's been presented to me then? So what you said before wasn't true?

OK, so you agree that Alonso is the more rounded driver than Hamilton, fair enough. At least we can agree on something.

You need to be more able to understand nuance. I said right from the beginning that I wasn't ruling it out, but that I wasn't convinced that Alonso was a step behind in qualifying. I still don't get why this is such a criminal offence. You're acting like I'm making out that Hamilton is poor, which I've not even come close to saying.

Oh I think things have been presented to you but you just dismiss such things as being rubbish.

What I see in countless threads is a theme of Hamilton being overrated, but no not poor as such.

Nothing has been presented to me. What I called rubbish was your assertion that you had to agree with everything with someone says, or nothing. And I still think that's rubbish


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:42 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
@pokerman

Just say Alonso is the best and be done with it.
It is now the second time they are doing that request.
They are OK with comments that put Alonso in a much better light than Hamilton, but will do gymnastics to prove Button is wrong when he says something positive about Hamilton. No wonder the same people keep posting the same stuff day and night.


Can you indicate anyone who is saying Alonso is the best at qualifying?

Did anybody say that Alonso was not Button's toughest teammate, do you not see the difference?

Why is it important?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
@pokerman

Just say Alonso is the best and be done with it.
It is now the second time they are doing that request.
They are OK with comments that put Alonso in a much better light than Hamilton, but will do gymnastics to prove Button is wrong when he says something positive about Hamilton. No wonder the same people keep posting the same stuff day and night.

Yep and I'm sure some people had got the popcorn ready for the deluge from Hamilton fans because Button said something uncomplimentary about him in respect to Alonso, but instead what did we get?

This sums things up in a nutshell.

Button didn't say anything uncomplimentary about Hamilton in respect to Alonso. It takes a special kind of paranoia to hold that view. He just expressed a view on where he rated them. But you see everything from the point of Hamilton as the victim, which is why you get into discussions like these.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
No, comment was made when Button said that Hamilton was a better qualifier than Alonso, as in Button was under rating Alonso


There is still room for Hamilton being a better qualifier than Alonso in Zoue's opinion, Zoue saying that Alonso is underrated as a qualifier doesn't instantly lift him up to Hamilton level. But you are unable to see that because you make of it what you want to make of it so you can have another bone to pick and do what you do best in here.

Quote:
but I'm sure I have a right to comment now and again.


The thing is that when it comes to discussing anything Hamilton, you are a toxic commenter and you will turn any good thread into a wreck in no time, for NO EFFING REASON AT ALL, just because your persecution complex makes you see things that aren't there.

It's always the same bullshit with you and I'm sick and tired of it.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:39 pm 
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@pokerman

I told you already..
You are wasting your time. They will team up and say it is your fault with your persecution complex.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:42 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
@pokerman

I told you already..
You are wasting your time. They will team up and say it is your fault with your persecution complex.


"They" are right. And if you had the common sense to backtrack in the discussion you will see that nothing even remotely offensive towards Hamilton was being said, but pokerman made it as if it was so.

And you're the one to comment, with your posting history towards Alonso.

And the real kicker? I can't even stand Alonso.

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