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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:21 pm 
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wolfticket wrote:
Theory: Raikkonen overtook Hamilton in order to back Hamilton into Bottas, thereby compromising Bottas' lap and giving Vettel a shot at the front row, which worked ;)

F1nut wrote:
hummm, Ricardo and Kimi have the same Q3 lap times 1:33.577......

Does F1 have more decimals than show on the timing and scoring web-site?

First one to set the time is ahead.

It did seem a bit dodgy. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:21 pm 
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F1nut wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1nut wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
Theory: Raikkonen overtook Hamilton in order to back Hamilton into Bottas, thereby compromising Bottas' lap and giving Vettel a shot at the front row, which worked ;)

F1nut wrote:
hummm, Ricardo and Kimi have the same Q3 lap times 1:33.577......

Does F1 have more decimals than show on the timing and scoring web-site?

First one to set the time is ahead.


Kimi went slower on his second attempt, set his 1:33.577 time on his first try and Ricardo did his 1:33.577 on his second lap of Q3, so how can your comment be valid?

From SKY:

They actually set the same 1:33.577 time, but Ricciardo takes fourth as he set the time first.

http://www.skysports.com/f1/live-blog


I don't have access to Sky - but I watch on the F1 Live timing and scoring web-site and Kimi's second attempt in Q3 was not 1:33.577 - that happened on his first hot lap - Ricardo went 1:33.577 on his second hot lap try.....

If the first one to set "THAT" time gets the position, why is Ricardo in 4th and not Kimi?

Ricciardo was already ahead of Kimi on the timing screens before he did his final run. I think perhaps you may have misread


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:22 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Why woud one assume a car's true pace is set by the slower driver? :?

I'd tentatively suggest that Kimi and Lewis have been outliers this year and skewing the results.

Vettel is 10-4 up against Bottas, yet 9-5 down against Hamilton.

If we take what we know about Bottas and Vettel and their common links Massa and Raikkonen up to the end of 2016:

Massa 25-19 Raikkonen (56%)

Bottas 39-18 Massa (68%)

Vettel 21-13 Raikkonen (61%)

So we would expect a hierarchy something like this: Bottas/Vettel---Massa-Raikkonen. So why are we assuming Vettel is an outliers when indirect evidence suggests Bottas should be much closer if he was in a better car...

I wish you the best of luck with that analogy. :)

Yep... best of luck convincing probably all of the paddock and especially the Ferrari directors that they have wasted close to 300 millions on Vettel's wages, because according to numbers above, Bottas could have done the same job or even better than Vettel for only a TENTH in wages.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:23 pm 
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I'd like to see Vettel's lap. He talked of struggling a bit with the transition from S1-S2. His S1 was shown live and it was hugely impressive.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:23 pm 
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minchy wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
Zoue wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
Hamilton exceeded track limits on both his Q3 runs according to the TV guys. Will they have the guts to throw his laps out?

I saw pretty much every driver doing so


Yep definitely others did, but Seb did not on his insane last run.

Maybe you should watch again, he went wide on the last turn. And possible another time, but it was close and I think that was also the turn that Charlie was letting them off.


Hamilton gained a huge amount of time from it on the first run, but Seb was on the margins and didn't really gain anything. Drivers were warned it would be a question of gaining a timing advantage, and I think it's clear Hamilton gained a lot. Hamilton gained something like 4 tenths on Valtieri in that last sector.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:26 pm 
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Turns 9 and 19 here are a f*ck ing joke, track limits get completely ignored in both.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:28 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Ah, what an anticlimax. Usual suspects at the front, all looks like fixed, tough, it isn't. Boring.

How was it boring?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:28 pm 
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Dan outqualifying Max without the upgraded engine is a hell of an effort.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:31 pm 
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F1nut wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
Theory: Raikkonen overtook Hamilton in order to back Hamilton into Bottas, thereby compromising Bottas' lap and giving Vettel a shot at the front row, which worked ;)

F1nut wrote:
hummm, Ricardo and Kimi have the same Q3 lap times 1:33.577......

Does F1 have more decimals than show on the timing and scoring web-site?

First one to set the time is ahead.


Kimi went slower on his second attempt, set his 1:33.577 time on his first try and Ricardo did his 1:33.577 on his second lap of Q3, so how can your comment be valid?

No he didn't.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:31 pm 
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MasterRacer wrote:
minchy wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
Zoue wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
Hamilton exceeded track limits on both his Q3 runs according to the TV guys. Will they have the guts to throw his laps out?

I saw pretty much every driver doing so


Yep definitely others did, but Seb did not on his insane last run.

Maybe you should watch again, he went wide on the last turn. And possible another time, but it was close and I think that was also the turn that Charlie was letting them off.


Hamilton gained a huge amount of time from it on the first run, but Seb was on the margins and didn't really gain anything. Drivers were warned it would be a question of gaining a timing advantage, and I think it's clear Hamilton gained a lot. Hamilton gained something like 4 tenths on Valtieri in that last sector.

I'm not really that fussed what Hamilton gained! You're post specifically stated that Vettel didn't exceed track limits. I'm simply pointing out that he did.

But as you mentioned it, from what I saw, Hamilton also went wide twice on his lap.

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Last edited by minchy on Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:31 pm 
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MasterRacer wrote:
minchy wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
Zoue wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
Hamilton exceeded track limits on both his Q3 runs according to the TV guys. Will they have the guts to throw his laps out?

I saw pretty much every driver doing so


Yep definitely others did, but Seb did not on his insane last run.

Maybe you should watch again, he went wide on the last turn. And possible another time, but it was close and I think that was also the turn that Charlie was letting them off.


Hamilton gained a huge amount of time from it on the first run, but Seb was on the margins and didn't really gain anything. Drivers were warned it would be a question of gaining a timing advantage, and I think it's clear Hamilton gained a lot. Hamilton gained something like 4 tenths on Valtieri in that last sector.

I missed both Hamilton laps, but saw Vettel's... and Vettel exceeded the limits on his last turn at least once.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:32 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Dan outqualifying Max without the upgraded engine is a hell of an effort.


But Max did have penalties, so maybe not the ideal quali set up? any gain used for the race. A few laps longer will be useful


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:33 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Ricciardo was already ahead of Kimi on the timing screens before he did his final run. I think perhaps you may have misread


As I said, and not be contentious here "ON the F1 Live timing and scoring website", which I was setting here watching on the computer, as this site is supposedly LIVE, without the 7 second delay on my NBCSN coverage - AFTER the first runs and before the drivers exited the pits for their second attempts in Q3 "THAT" F1 timing site showed P1 as Ham, P2 as Bot, P3 as Kimi P4 as Vet and P5 as Ricardo - hopefully you can now understand why I'm asking........


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:35 pm 
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F1nut wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ricciardo was already ahead of Kimi on the timing screens before he did his final run. I think perhaps you may have misread


As I said, and not be contentious here "ON the F1 Live timing and scoring website", which I was setting here watching on the computer, as this site is supposedly LIVE, without the 7 second delay on my NBCSN coverage - AFTER the first runs and before the drivers exited the pits for their second attempts in Q3 "THAT" F1 timing site showed P1 as Ham, P2 as Bot, P3 as Kimi P4 as Vet and P5 as Ricardo - you can now understand why I'm asking........

Sure, but as a few people watching the coverage have now stated, that wasn't what happened. The live timing site was wrong in that case, or at least out of sequence.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:35 pm 
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Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Why woud one assume a car's true pace is set by the slower driver? :?

I'd tentatively suggest that Kimi and Lewis have been outliers this year and skewing the results.

Vettel is 10-4 up against Bottas, yet 9-5 down against Hamilton.

If we take what we know about Bottas and Vettel and their common links Massa and Raikkonen up to the end of 2016:

Massa 25-19 Raikkonen (56%)

Bottas 39-18 Massa (68%)

Vettel 21-13 Raikkonen (61%)

So we would expect a hierarchy something like this: Bottas/Vettel---Massa-Raikkonen. So why are we assuming Vettel is an outliers when indirect evidence suggests Bottas should be much closer if he was in a better car...

I wish you the best of luck with that analogy. :)

Yep... best of luck convincing probably all of the paddock and especially the Ferrari directors that they have wasted close to 300 millions on Vettel's wages, because according to numbers above, Bottas could have done the same job or even better than Vettel for only a TENTH in wages.

No it's not entirely accurate but much nearer the truth.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:41 pm 
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MasterRacer wrote:
minchy wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
Zoue wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
Hamilton exceeded track limits on both his Q3 runs according to the TV guys. Will they have the guts to throw his laps out?

I saw pretty much every driver doing so


Yep definitely others did, but Seb did not on his insane last run.

Maybe you should watch again, he went wide on the last turn. And possible another time, but it was close and I think that was also the turn that Charlie was letting them off.


Hamilton gained a huge amount of time from it on the first run, but Seb was on the margins and didn't really gain anything. Drivers were warned it would be a question of gaining a timing advantage, and I think it's clear Hamilton gained a lot. Hamilton gained something like 4 tenths on Valtieri in that last sector.

Wow you can measure it all in tenths of a second, Verstappen went clean off the track but still got out qualified by Ricciardo even though surely Verstappen must have gained a full second?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:42 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Dan outqualifying Max without the upgraded engine is a hell of an effort.

Verstappen said he messed up both laps.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:42 pm 
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In looking at the times progression, I seriously doubt that the Mercedes has anything on the Ferrari in qualifying right now. Ferrari barely got any running with Vettel in 2 of the 3 practices and I think they took a while to get up to speed. To see how much quicker they got in Q3 was an eye opener. I think the car had more time in it. Vettel's last lap was a huge improvement from the one before and it seemed like he had just got into the groove.

By comparison, both Mercedes drivers got into the groove with their final runs in Q2. Both were quickest in their first Q3 run and then failed to improve afterwards. That suggests that they got close to the maximum out of the car while the Ferrari was still going quicker and quicker.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:56 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Why woud one assume a car's true pace is set by the slower driver? :?

I'd tentatively suggest that Kimi and Lewis have been outliers this year and skewing the results.

Vettel is 10-4 up against Bottas, yet 9-5 down against Hamilton.

If we take what we know about Bottas and Vettel and their common links Massa and Raikkonen up to the end of 2016:

Massa 25-19 Raikkonen (56%)

Bottas 39-18 Massa (68%)

Vettel 21-13 Raikkonen (61%)

So we would expect a hierarchy something like this: Bottas/Vettel---Massa-Raikkonen. So why are we assuming Vettel is an outliers when indirect evidence suggests Bottas should be much closer if he was in a better car...

I wish you the best of luck with that analogy. :)

Yep... best of luck convincing probably all of the paddock and especially the Ferrari directors that they have wasted close to 300 millions on Vettel's wages, because according to numbers above, Bottas could have done the same job or even better than Vettel for only a TENTH in wages.

No it's not entirely accurate but much nearer the truth.

Why would the connection above, be nearer the truth than lets say...
Vettel > Webber > Rosberg < Hamilton
... where even if you put 2 tenths offset to Rosberg since he was on his rookie season, it still portrays Vettel as the best amongst the 4 drivers above!?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:11 pm 
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Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I wish you the best of luck with that analogy. :)

Yep... best of luck convincing probably all of the paddock and especially the Ferrari directors that they have wasted close to 300 millions on Vettel's wages, because according to numbers above, Bottas could have done the same job or even better than Vettel for only a TENTH in wages.

No it's not entirely accurate but much nearer the truth.

Why would the connection above, be nearer the truth than lets say...
Vettel > Webber > Rosberg < Hamilton
... where even if you put 2 tenths offset to Rosberg since he was on his rookie season, it still portrays Vettel as the best amongst the 4 drivers above!?

It's actually only the first third of the season where Webber was quicker than Rosberg. Once Nico has a few races under his belt he was right on Webber's pace and even beating him as frequently as losing to him. This in Nico's first season as a 20/21 year old against Mark in his prime.

The fact is that Massa beat Kimi fairly comfortably after their first season as teammates and that was Kimi in his prime. I think most of us assume that he's a bit past it at the moment.

Anyway, it's all opinions but I don't think the Merc had an advantage today at all. I think the difference out there was in the drivers and the teams and the way they handled the weekend. Vettel barely got any running and it's obvious that he didn't get into the groove at all until Q3 (never broke into the 1:33's in Q2). Once in Q3, it was obvious that there was a lot more pace in the car and they really only got to the point of extracting it late in Q3. Vettel's last Q3 lap was the first time he moved ahead of Kimi in the table.

With Max now staying at Red Bull, that leaves Daniel as the key puzzle piece. If he goes to Mercedes, we need to pay close attention to that match-up as it might make a few things clearer.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:16 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
It's actually only the first third of the season where Webber was quicker than Rosberg. Once Nico has a few races under his belt he was right on Webber's pace and even beating him as frequently as losing to him. This in Nico's first season as a 20/21 year old against Mark in his prime.

The fact is that Massa beat Kimi fairly comfortably after their first season as teammates and that was Kimi in his prime. I think most of us assume that he's a bit past it at the moment.

Anyway, it's all opinions but I don't think the Merc had an advantage today at all. I think the difference out there was in the drivers and the teams and the way they handled the weekend. Vettel barely got any running and it's obvious that he didn't get into the groove at all until Q3 (never broke into the 1:33's in Q2). Once in Q3, it was obvious that there was a lot more pace in the car and they really only got to the point of extracting it late in Q3. Vettel's last Q3 lap was the first time he moved ahead of Kimi in the table.

With Max now staying at Red Bull, that leaves Daniel as the key puzzle piece. If he goes to Mercedes, we need to pay close attention to that match-up as it might make a few things clearer.


I do think you have a point here in that it was a smooth sailing weekend for Mercedes which means they were better able to place themselves, whereas Ferrari stumbled.

edit: too many quotes.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:26 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
In looking at the times progression, I seriously doubt that the Mercedes has anything on the Ferrari in qualifying right now. Ferrari barely got any running with Vettel in 2 of the 3 practices and I think they took a while to get up to speed. To see how much quicker they got in Q3 was an eye opener. I think the car had more time in it. Vettel's last lap was a huge improvement from the one before and it seemed like he had just got into the groove.

By comparison, both Mercedes drivers got into the groove with their final runs in Q2. Both were quickest in their first Q3 run and then failed to improve afterwards. That suggests that they got close to the maximum out of the car while the Ferrari was still going quicker and quicker.

It was a close mirror copy of Monaco in reverse...
In Monaco, Mercedes looked well of the pace untill Bottas final lap and today Ferrari looked well off the pace untill Vettel's final lap.
But I dont suppose you think that the cars were evenly matched in Monaco qualifyings too!?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:31 pm 
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Migen wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
In looking at the times progression, I seriously doubt that the Mercedes has anything on the Ferrari in qualifying right now. Ferrari barely got any running with Vettel in 2 of the 3 practices and I think they took a while to get up to speed. To see how much quicker they got in Q3 was an eye opener. I think the car had more time in it. Vettel's last lap was a huge improvement from the one before and it seemed like he had just got into the groove.

By comparison, both Mercedes drivers got into the groove with their final runs in Q2. Both were quickest in their first Q3 run and then failed to improve afterwards. That suggests that they got close to the maximum out of the car while the Ferrari was still going quicker and quicker.

It was a close mirror copy of Monaco in reverse...
In Monaco, Mercedes looked well of the pace untill Bottas final lap and today Ferrari looked well off the pace untill Vettel's final lap.
But I dont suppose you think that the cars were evenly matched in Monaco qualifyings too!?

In Monaco Lewis had the session red flagged during his fast lap in Q2 (screwed up his first lap) and didn't make it to Q3 in the first place so it's a mystery how, in your mind, the two sessions are even remotely similar. Additionally, both Ferraris out-qualified both Mercedes there. Your logic needs work.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:50 pm 
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wolfticket wrote:
F1nut wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ricciardo was already ahead of Kimi on the timing screens before he did his final run. I think perhaps you may have misread


As I said, and not be contentious here "ON the F1 Live timing and scoring website", which I was setting here watching on the computer, as this site is supposedly LIVE, without the 7 second delay on my NBCSN coverage - AFTER the first runs and before the drivers exited the pits for their second attempts in Q3 "THAT" F1 timing site showed P1 as Ham, P2 as Bot, P3 as Kimi P4 as Vet and P5 as Ricardo - you can now understand why I'm asking........

Sure, but as a few people watching the coverage have now stated, that wasn't what happened. The live timing site was wrong in that case, or at least out of sequence.


Actually according to here: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2017/10/qualifying---hamilton-and-vettel-on-austin-front-row.html

excerpt - As it happened – Q3

Hamilton kept up the pace with 1m 33.108s on his first run on Q3, though Bottas set a faster first sector time. The Finn dropped back on the other two, however, but was second on 1m 33.568s as Raikkonen, Vettel and Verstappen were all right together, on 1m 33.852s, 1m 33.867s and 1m 33.868s respectively. Ricciardo was sixth, on 1m 34.130s.

Vettel was the big improver with 1m 33.347s on the second runs, jumping to second ahead of Bottas, who did not protect his team mate as he failed to go faster. Neither did Hamilton, with 1m 33.229s, but 1m 33.108s was good enough for his 72nd pole.

Behind Bottas in third place, Ricciardo did a great job to beat Raikkonen, though they shared the same lap time of 1m 33.577s, while Verstappen could only muster 1m 33.658s on this occasion, for sixth.


There were alot of wrongs here..... :uhoh: ... and the F1 Timing and scoring site, was wrong too, if the above information is correct.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:52 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
In looking at the times progression, I seriously doubt that the Mercedes has anything on the Ferrari in qualifying right now. Ferrari barely got any running with Vettel in 2 of the 3 practices and I think they took a while to get up to speed. To see how much quicker they got in Q3 was an eye opener. I think the car had more time in it. Vettel's last lap was a huge improvement from the one before and it seemed like he had just got into the groove.

By comparison, both Mercedes drivers got into the groove with their final runs in Q2. Both were quickest in their first Q3 run and then failed to improve afterwards. That suggests that they got close to the maximum out of the car while the Ferrari was still going quicker and quicker.

It was a close mirror copy of Monaco in reverse...
In Monaco, Mercedes looked well of the pace untill Bottas final lap and today Ferrari looked well off the pace untill Vettel's final lap.
But I dont suppose you think that the cars were evenly matched in Monaco qualifyings too!?

In Monaco Lewis had the session red flagged during his fast lap in Q2 (screwed up his first lap) and didn't make it to Q3 in the first place so it's a mystery how, in your mind, the two sessions are even remotely similar. Additionally, both Ferraris out-qualified both Mercedes there. Your logic needs work.

Its less about who out-qualified who and more about the margins from 1 car to the other... and Mercedes was actually closer in Monaco with their 2nd driver than Ferrari today with their #1 driver (had Hamilton nailed his 1st Q2 run in Monaco, he could have had pole, no?).
The similarity remains... Mercedes looked well of the pace untill Bottas final lap and today Ferrari looked well off the pace untill Vettel's final lap.
Whilst I admit that Ferrari had the advantage in Monaco qualifying, I just dont understand your desperate need to spin today's Mercedes dominance in qualies as being equal with Ferrari.
Edit: Had Hamilton not been caught out by a "gust of wind" on his final run today (or had it affected Vettel's lap instead), the gap would have been much bigger.


Last edited by Migen on Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:59 pm 
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F1nut wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
F1nut wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ricciardo was already ahead of Kimi on the timing screens before he did his final run. I think perhaps you may have misread


As I said, and not be contentious here "ON the F1 Live timing and scoring website", which I was setting here watching on the computer, as this site is supposedly LIVE, without the 7 second delay on my NBCSN coverage - AFTER the first runs and before the drivers exited the pits for their second attempts in Q3 "THAT" F1 timing site showed P1 as Ham, P2 as Bot, P3 as Kimi P4 as Vet and P5 as Ricardo - you can now understand why I'm asking........

Sure, but as a few people watching the coverage have now stated, that wasn't what happened. The live timing site was wrong in that case, or at least out of sequence.


Actually according to here: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2017/10/qualifying---hamilton-and-vettel-on-austin-front-row.html

excerpt - As it happened – Q3

Hamilton kept up the pace with 1m 33.108s on his first run on Q3, though Bottas set a faster first sector time. The Finn dropped back on the other two, however, but was second on 1m 33.568s as Raikkonen, Vettel and Verstappen were all right together, on 1m 33.852s, 1m 33.867s and 1m 33.868s respectively. Ricciardo was sixth, on 1m 34.130s.

Vettel was the big improver with 1m 33.347s on the second runs, jumping to second ahead of Bottas, who did not protect his team mate as he failed to go faster. Neither did Hamilton, with 1m 33.229s, but 1m 33.108s was good enough for his 72nd pole.

Behind Bottas in third place, Ricciardo did a great job to beat Raikkonen, though they shared the same lap time of 1m 33.577s, while Verstappen could only muster 1m 33.658s on this occasion, for sixth.


There were alot of wrongs here..... :uhoh: ... and the F1 Timing and scoring site, was wrong too, if the above information is correct.

Nothing wrong there. It just states Rai and Ric's first runs were 1m 33.852s and 1m 34.130s respectively, and that their second runs were both 1m 33.577s.

Everyone was doing single hot lap runs and Ric completed his second run hot lap of 1m 33.577s before Rai.

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Last edited by wolfticket on Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:01 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Dan outqualifying Max without the upgraded engine is a hell of an effort.

Verstappen said he messed up both laps.

... which means Dan drove better, doesn't it?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:14 am 
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On board Hamilton pole lap 1:33.108

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i8G0C4W0mBs


Hamilton lap analyzed by sky sports @ 2:55 mark

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=963s&v=TskYAjf5ils

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Last edited by Mayhem on Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:23 am 
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Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
I keep saying that Hamilton is playing a not-insignificant factor in this title. Without him, Seb would have this title comfortably.

Both main protagonists are. If Vettel wasn't in the Ferrari, Lewis would probably have wrapped it up several races ago and people would probably be treating this much like 2016

Agreed, but I think some credit needs to go to the new regulations. It's allowed (and fortunately the two teams have produced good cars) two of this generations best to go hard and put a full range of their skills on show for our enjoyment. Unfortunately it hasn't built to an intense finale but still fascinating to watch.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:32 am 
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Migen wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
In looking at the times progression, I seriously doubt that the Mercedes has anything on the Ferrari in qualifying right now. Ferrari barely got any running with Vettel in 2 of the 3 practices and I think they took a while to get up to speed. To see how much quicker they got in Q3 was an eye opener. I think the car had more time in it. Vettel's last lap was a huge improvement from the one before and it seemed like he had just got into the groove.

By comparison, both Mercedes drivers got into the groove with their final runs in Q2. Both were quickest in their first Q3 run and then failed to improve afterwards. That suggests that they got close to the maximum out of the car while the Ferrari was still going quicker and quicker.

It was a close mirror copy of Monaco in reverse...
In Monaco, Mercedes looked well of the pace untill Bottas final lap and today Ferrari looked well off the pace untill Vettel's final lap.
But I dont suppose you think that the cars were evenly matched in Monaco qualifyings too!?

In Monaco Lewis had the session red flagged during his fast lap in Q2 (screwed up his first lap) and didn't make it to Q3 in the first place so it's a mystery how, in your mind, the two sessions are even remotely similar. Additionally, both Ferraris out-qualified both Mercedes there. Your logic needs work.

Its less about who out-qualified who and more about the margins from 1 car to the other... and Mercedes was actually closer in Monaco with their 2nd driver than Ferrari today with their #1 driver (had Hamilton nailed his 1st Q2 run in Monaco, he could have had pole, no?).
The similarity remains... Mercedes looked well of the pace untill Bottas final lap and today Ferrari looked well off the pace untill Vettel's final lap.
Whilst I admit that Ferrari had the advantage in Monaco qualifying, I just dont understand your desperate need to spin today's Mercedes dominance in qualies as being equal with Ferrari.
Edit: Had Hamilton not been caught out by a "gust of wind" on his final run today (or had it affected Vettel's lap instead), the gap would have been much bigger.

Vettel didn't even out-qualify Raikkonen in Monaco while Hamilton beat Bottas by more than 0.35 seconds today. The situations are not similar at all.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:35 am 
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Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
I'd tentatively suggest that Kimi and Lewis have been outliers this year and skewing the results.

Vettel is 10-4 up against Bottas, yet 9-5 down against Hamilton.

If we take what we know about Bottas and Vettel and their common links Massa and Raikkonen up to the end of 2016:

Massa 25-19 Raikkonen (56%)

Bottas 39-18 Massa (68%)

Vettel 21-13 Raikkonen (61%)

So we would expect a hierarchy something like this: Bottas/Vettel---Massa-Raikkonen. So why are we assuming Vettel is an outliers when indirect evidence suggests Bottas should be much closer if he was in a better car...

I wish you the best of luck with that analogy. :)

Yep... best of luck convincing probably all of the paddock and especially the Ferrari directors that they have wasted close to 300 millions on Vettel's wages, because according to numbers above, Bottas could have done the same job or even better than Vettel for only a TENTH in wages.

No it's not entirely accurate but much nearer the truth.

Why would the connection above, be nearer the truth than lets say...
Vettel > Webber > Rosberg < Hamilton
... where even if you put 2 tenths offset to Rosberg since he was on his rookie season, it still portrays Vettel as the best amongst the 4 drivers above!?

Well let's put Ocon in the trash bin already because rookies never improve, Button got beat by Ralf Schumacher then Fisichella in his first 2 seasons of F1.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:39 am 
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Mayhem wrote:
On board Hamilton pole lap 1:33.108

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i8G0C4W0mBs


Hamilton lap analyzed by sky sports @ 2:55 mark

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=963s&v=TskYAjf5ils


So are they going to investigate it or let him off as usual?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:40 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Dan outqualifying Max without the upgraded engine is a hell of an effort.

Verstappen said he messed up both laps.

... which means Dan drove better, doesn't it?

Yes because Verstappen was a bit rubbish, those being his own words.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:44 am 
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Mayhem wrote:
On board Hamilton pole lap 1:33.108

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i8G0C4W0mBs


Hamilton lap analyzed by sky sports @ 2:55 mark

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=963s&v=TskYAjf5ils

No excessive abuse of track limits as suggested by masteracer,

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:50 am 
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MasterRacer wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
On board Hamilton pole lap 1:33.108

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i8G0C4W0mBs


Hamilton lap analyzed by sky sports @ 2:55 mark

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=963s&v=TskYAjf5ils


So are they going to investigate it or let him off as usual?

Are you serious somebody find Vettel's lap.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:22 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
In looking at the times progression, I seriously doubt that the Mercedes has anything on the Ferrari in qualifying right now. Ferrari barely got any running with Vettel in 2 of the 3 practices and I think they took a while to get up to speed. To see how much quicker they got in Q3 was an eye opener. I think the car had more time in it. Vettel's last lap was a huge improvement from the one before and it seemed like he had just got into the groove.

By comparison, both Mercedes drivers got into the groove with their final runs in Q2. Both were quickest in their first Q3 run and then failed to improve afterwards. That suggests that they got close to the maximum out of the car while the Ferrari was still going quicker and quicker.

It was a close mirror copy of Monaco in reverse...
In Monaco, Mercedes looked well of the pace untill Bottas final lap and today Ferrari looked well off the pace untill Vettel's final lap.
But I dont suppose you think that the cars were evenly matched in Monaco qualifyings too!?

In Monaco Lewis had the session red flagged during his fast lap in Q2 (screwed up his first lap) and didn't make it to Q3 in the first place so it's a mystery how, in your mind, the two sessions are even remotely similar. Additionally, both Ferraris out-qualified both Mercedes there. Your logic needs work.

Its less about who out-qualified who and more about the margins from 1 car to the other... and Mercedes was actually closer in Monaco with their 2nd driver than Ferrari today with their #1 driver (had Hamilton nailed his 1st Q2 run in Monaco, he could have had pole, no?).
The similarity remains... Mercedes looked well of the pace untill Bottas final lap and today Ferrari looked well off the pace untill Vettel's final lap.
Whilst I admit that Ferrari had the advantage in Monaco qualifying, I just dont understand your desperate need to spin today's Mercedes dominance in qualies as being equal with Ferrari.
Edit: Had Hamilton not been caught out by a "gust of wind" on his final run today (or had it affected Vettel's lap instead), the gap would have been much bigger.

Vettel didn't even out-qualify Raikkonen in Monaco while Hamilton beat Bottas by more than 0.35 seconds today. The situations are not similar at all.

And Hamilton did not out-qualify his team-mate in Monaco neither so it does not really matter. Yes there was potential for Ferrari to be further ahead in Monaco with Vettel, the same as there was potential for Mercedes to be closer again had Hamilton got in Q3, so in the end, the gap could have still been as close as it was between Kimi and Bottas.

The similarity I`m pointing out, and repeating it for the 3rd time because you keep going around in circles, is pretty clear - "in Monaco, Mercedes looked well of the pace until the final lap by "X" Mercedes driver and today Ferrari looked well off the pace until the final lap of "Y" Ferrari driver" (maybe removing the drivers names will help?).


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:04 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I wish you the best of luck with that analogy. :)

Yep... best of luck convincing probably all of the paddock and especially the Ferrari directors that they have wasted close to 300 millions on Vettel's wages, because according to numbers above, Bottas could have done the same job or even better than Vettel for only a TENTH in wages.

No it's not entirely accurate but much nearer the truth.

Why would the connection above, be nearer the truth than lets say...
Vettel > Webber > Rosberg < Hamilton
... where even if you put 2 tenths offset to Rosberg since he was on his rookie season, it still portrays Vettel as the best amongst the 4 drivers above!?

Well let's put Ocon in the trash bin already because rookies never improve, Button got beat by Ralf Schumacher then Fisichella in his first 2 seasons of F1.

Yes, rookies improve (hence why I mentioned 2 tenths offset) but apparently the other drivers performance (Kimi and Massa for instance) is supposed to remains static, even though the match-up was a decade apart :?: How so?

Heck, Kimi's performance has had ups and downs even within the last 3 years with Vettel, let alone taking 10 years ago with Masa as "reference".
Kimi's gap with Vettel in qualifyings has been halved on these last 2 seasons when you compare it to the 2015 season, when Vettel did beat Kimi in qualifying as convincingly and with similar gaps as Alonso did in 2014, in a Ferrari car that Kimi felt much more comfortable in comparison with the one he had the previous year (vs Alonso).


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:56 am 
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pokerman wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
On board Hamilton pole lap 1:33.108

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i8G0C4W0mBs


Hamilton lap analyzed by sky sports @ 2:55 mark

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=963s&v=TskYAjf5ils


So are they going to investigate it or let him off as usual?

Are you serious somebody find Vettel's lap.


It would be fascinating to see them split screen.

Btw I'm not just criticising Hamilton. It is embarrassing that so many others were also allowed to abuse track limits. But I'm definitely upset that Hamilton stole pole from Seb because of it. The four tenths he gained were decisive.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:50 am 
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The entire qualy in a picture:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:57 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Ah, what an anticlimax. Usual suspects at the front, all looks like fixed, tough, it isn't. Boring.

How was it boring?

Because it was predictable. Hamilton on front, Vettel splitting Mercedes drivers, Kimi somewhere behind, RBR's close one after another, FI better than Williams, etc. All things fell in their usual places.

Applying penalties was more fun than an hour of qualifications.

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