planetf1.com

It is currently Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:10 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 4638
Location: Michigan, USA
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Secrecy could be for any number of reasons. How many drivers publish their contracts for all to see? You can't assume there's an open get-out clause on the basis that they won't talk about it. And you certainly can't state it like it's any kind of fact

We don't even know how many years it's for, why the secrecy?

I don't know why he hasn't said the number of years, but I don't agree that keeping that information secret automatically means that his contract is as open as a sieve. That's just an assumption you're making.

That said, I expect he did carefully place get-out clauses in it. I don't see people piling on Max for wanting the same in his contract - in fact, he seems to be oddly applauded for it. How come it's reasonable for Max but disloyal for Alonso? He's already given the team 3 of his best years, and he's achieved nothing because of Honda. Fair enough, but now Honda is gone; if McLaren still can't compete, then he has no reason to stay. Even as a McLaren fan, I can't fault him for that; he doesn't have that many years left to burn.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (3 wins, 12 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #3)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 24075
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Secrecy could be for any number of reasons. How many drivers publish their contracts for all to see? You can't assume there's an open get-out clause on the basis that they won't talk about it. And you certainly can't state it like it's any kind of fact

We don't even know how many years it's for, why the secrecy?

I don't know why he hasn't said the number of years, but I don't agree that keeping that information secret automatically means that his contract is as open as a sieve. That's just an assumption you're making.

That said, I expect he did carefully place get-out clauses in it. I don't see people piling on Max for wanting the same in his contract - in fact, he seems to be oddly applauded for it. How come it's reasonable for Max but disloyal for Alonso? He's already given the team 3 of his best years, and he's achieved nothing because of Honda. Fair enough, but now Honda is gone; if McLaren still can't compete, then he has no reason to stay. Even as a McLaren fan, I can't fault him for that; he doesn't have that many years left to burn.

Were are the clauses in Verstappen's contract when he has given reasons for not driving for either Ferrari and Mercedes but committed to Red Bull until 2020?

This is all about showing a united front when it seems to me obvious that if McLaren can't deliver then Alonso leaves at the end of the year.

So with one you have a commitment to a team that they will come good and deliver wins and titles in the next 3 years whilst the other is deliver or I'm gone.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:29 am
Posts: 1907
Indeed, Zak Brown said the contract is 'structured' to keep him at McLaren for the foreseeable future so maybe a rolling one year option as I suspect Alonso will not want to be tethered to them for many years again after the Honda debacle. I suspect he's looking to see how Renault and other midfield teams do in the future. It's up to McLaren now to keep him by being competitive. I thought like him his performance at Austin was sublime, he's at peace now with his situation ...

_________________
Kimi: "Come on, get the McLaren out of the way!”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 3667
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Secrecy could be for any number of reasons. How many drivers publish their contracts for all to see? You can't assume there's an open get-out clause on the basis that they won't talk about it. And you certainly can't state it like it's any kind of fact

We don't even know how many years it's for, why the secrecy?

I don't know why he hasn't said the number of years, but I don't agree that keeping that information secret automatically means that his contract is as open as a sieve. That's just an assumption you're making.

That said, I expect he did carefully place get-out clauses in it. I don't see people piling on Max for wanting the same in his contract - in fact, he seems to be oddly applauded for it. How come it's reasonable for Max but disloyal for Alonso? He's already given the team 3 of his best years, and he's achieved nothing because of Honda. Fair enough, but now Honda is gone; if McLaren still can't compete, then he has no reason to stay. Even as a McLaren fan, I can't fault him for that; he doesn't have that many years left to burn.

Were are the clauses in Verstappen's contract when he has given reasons for not driving for either Ferrari and Mercedes but committed to Red Bull until 2020?

This is all about showing a united front when it seems to me obvious that if McLaren can't deliver then Alonso leaves at the end of the year.

So with one you have a commitment to a team that they will come good and deliver wins and titles in the next 3 years whilst the other is deliver or I'm gone.


It's thought Max got outs that he didn't have in his previous deal. His old deal had RB holding the option until the end of 2019 with only WCC position acting as a release. For 1 more year he's been given a big pay bump and better outs.

And one of them is 20 and hasn't had 3 seasons in the sport yet and the other is 36 and has more broken promises from teams than championships and hasn't had the best car in over 10 years. He's committed to a 4th and potentially 5th year to McLaren if both sides are happy.

And both McLaren and Alonso hold options as I understand it. If Norris dominates F2 next year and Vandoorne beats 37yr old Alonso then the bosses at Macca are going to be pretty over the moon they didn't lock 40m a year Alonso into a 3yr deal that runs until Alonso is 39.

And again, McLaren are perfectly happy with his level of commitment.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7819
One huge benefit to Mclaren of keeping Alonso is that he is not going somewhere else. If he went to say Williams, Mclaren would find it far harder to get infront of Williams. So its not only points for Mclaren, but points not going to a team they are going to be fighting with next year.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 24075
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Secrecy could be for any number of reasons. How many drivers publish their contracts for all to see? You can't assume there's an open get-out clause on the basis that they won't talk about it. And you certainly can't state it like it's any kind of fact

We don't even know how many years it's for, why the secrecy?

I don't know why he hasn't said the number of years, but I don't agree that keeping that information secret automatically means that his contract is as open as a sieve. That's just an assumption you're making.

That said, I expect he did carefully place get-out clauses in it. I don't see people piling on Max for wanting the same in his contract - in fact, he seems to be oddly applauded for it. How come it's reasonable for Max but disloyal for Alonso? He's already given the team 3 of his best years, and he's achieved nothing because of Honda. Fair enough, but now Honda is gone; if McLaren still can't compete, then he has no reason to stay. Even as a McLaren fan, I can't fault him for that; he doesn't have that many years left to burn.

Were are the clauses in Verstappen's contract when he has given reasons for not driving for either Ferrari and Mercedes but committed to Red Bull until 2020?

This is all about showing a united front when it seems to me obvious that if McLaren can't deliver then Alonso leaves at the end of the year.

So with one you have a commitment to a team that they will come good and deliver wins and titles in the next 3 years whilst the other is deliver or I'm gone.


It's thought Max got outs that he didn't have in his previous deal. His old deal had RB holding the option until the end of 2019 with only WCC position acting as a release. For 1 more year he's been given a big pay bump and better outs.

And one of them is 20 and hasn't had 3 seasons in the sport yet and the other is 36 and has more broken promises from teams than championships and hasn't had the best car in over 10 years. He's committed to a 4th and potentially 5th year to McLaren if both sides are happy.

And both McLaren and Alonso hold options as I understand it. If Norris dominates F2 next year and Vandoorne beats 37yr old Alonso then the bosses at Macca are going to be pretty over the moon they didn't lock 40m a year Alonso into a 3yr deal that runs until Alonso is 39.

And again, McLaren are perfectly happy with his level of commitment.

Sorry that makes no sense in relation to Verstappen, he had a contract until 2019 which he was unlikely to be able to break so Red Bull give him a new contract for more money and better clauses for him to leave Red Bull before his contract runs out in 2020, why would Red Bull do that?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 3667
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
We don't even know how many years it's for, why the secrecy?

I don't know why he hasn't said the number of years, but I don't agree that keeping that information secret automatically means that his contract is as open as a sieve. That's just an assumption you're making.

That said, I expect he did carefully place get-out clauses in it. I don't see people piling on Max for wanting the same in his contract - in fact, he seems to be oddly applauded for it. How come it's reasonable for Max but disloyal for Alonso? He's already given the team 3 of his best years, and he's achieved nothing because of Honda. Fair enough, but now Honda is gone; if McLaren still can't compete, then he has no reason to stay. Even as a McLaren fan, I can't fault him for that; he doesn't have that many years left to burn.

Were are the clauses in Verstappen's contract when he has given reasons for not driving for either Ferrari and Mercedes but committed to Red Bull until 2020?

This is all about showing a united front when it seems to me obvious that if McLaren can't deliver then Alonso leaves at the end of the year.

So with one you have a commitment to a team that they will come good and deliver wins and titles in the next 3 years whilst the other is deliver or I'm gone.


It's thought Max got outs that he didn't have in his previous deal. His old deal had RB holding the option until the end of 2019 with only WCC position acting as a release. For 1 more year he's been given a big pay bump and better outs.

And one of them is 20 and hasn't had 3 seasons in the sport yet and the other is 36 and has more broken promises from teams than championships and hasn't had the best car in over 10 years. He's committed to a 4th and potentially 5th year to McLaren if both sides are happy.

And both McLaren and Alonso hold options as I understand it. If Norris dominates F2 next year and Vandoorne beats 37yr old Alonso then the bosses at Macca are going to be pretty over the moon they didn't lock 40m a year Alonso into a 3yr deal that runs until Alonso is 39.

And again, McLaren are perfectly happy with his level of commitment.

Sorry that makes no sense in relation to Verstappen, he had a contract until 2019 which he was unlikely to be able to break so Red Bull give him a new contract for more money and better clauses for him to leave Red Bull before his contract runs out in 2020, why would Red Bull do that?


To secure him for the extra year I think. It was being talked about on AS forum in a couple of threads. Technically his old deal ran out at the end of 2018 but it was thought RB had the option to extend for a further year but it was tied to WCC placing IIRC but it was never confirmed.

If that option wasn't so one-sided or assured and his leaving at the end of 2018 was a possibility then securing him longer would be attractive even if they have to give him some WDC tied outs like with Seb. You'd back his and your own competitiveness to be the security.

But who knows, we don't have copies of his previous or new contract so it's all rumours/guesswork really to be fair.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 24075
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I don't know why he hasn't said the number of years, but I don't agree that keeping that information secret automatically means that his contract is as open as a sieve. That's just an assumption you're making.

That said, I expect he did carefully place get-out clauses in it. I don't see people piling on Max for wanting the same in his contract - in fact, he seems to be oddly applauded for it. How come it's reasonable for Max but disloyal for Alonso? He's already given the team 3 of his best years, and he's achieved nothing because of Honda. Fair enough, but now Honda is gone; if McLaren still can't compete, then he has no reason to stay. Even as a McLaren fan, I can't fault him for that; he doesn't have that many years left to burn.

Were are the clauses in Verstappen's contract when he has given reasons for not driving for either Ferrari and Mercedes but committed to Red Bull until 2020?

This is all about showing a united front when it seems to me obvious that if McLaren can't deliver then Alonso leaves at the end of the year.

So with one you have a commitment to a team that they will come good and deliver wins and titles in the next 3 years whilst the other is deliver or I'm gone.


It's thought Max got outs that he didn't have in his previous deal. His old deal had RB holding the option until the end of 2019 with only WCC position acting as a release. For 1 more year he's been given a big pay bump and better outs.

And one of them is 20 and hasn't had 3 seasons in the sport yet and the other is 36 and has more broken promises from teams than championships and hasn't had the best car in over 10 years. He's committed to a 4th and potentially 5th year to McLaren if both sides are happy.

And both McLaren and Alonso hold options as I understand it. If Norris dominates F2 next year and Vandoorne beats 37yr old Alonso then the bosses at Macca are going to be pretty over the moon they didn't lock 40m a year Alonso into a 3yr deal that runs until Alonso is 39.

And again, McLaren are perfectly happy with his level of commitment.

Sorry that makes no sense in relation to Verstappen, he had a contract until 2019 which he was unlikely to be able to break so Red Bull give him a new contract for more money and better clauses for him to leave Red Bull before his contract runs out in 2020, why would Red Bull do that?


To secure him for the extra year I think. It was being talked about on AS forum in a couple of threads. Technically his old deal ran out at the end of 2018 but it was thought RB had the option to extend for a further year but it was tied to WCC placing IIRC but it was never confirmed.

If that option wasn't so one-sided or assured and his leaving at the end of 2018 was a possibility then securing him longer would be attractive even if they have to give him some WDC tied outs like with Seb. You'd back his and your own competitiveness to be the security.

But who knows, we don't have copies of his previous or new contract so it's all rumours/guesswork really to be fair.

The 2019 option was that Red Bull had to finish lower than 3rd in the WCC which is highly unlikely, the rumour was that the Verstappens were negotiating for the option to be changed to 3rd in the WDC so making it easier for the option to be triggered.

So basically we are saying that Verstappen gets more money and is on a contract to make it easier to leave the team, that makes no sense for Red Bull unless they believe the option would be triggered that late in the season making Verstappen unavailable anyway unless either Ferrari or Mercedes were prepared to wait until the end of the season to see if Verstappen was going to be available?

Also how do we reconcile all this with Verstappen saying he is at Red Bull until 2020 and he's not going to Ferrari or Mercedes for all the reasons he has given, do these reasons all of a sudden become invalid?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 3667
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Were are the clauses in Verstappen's contract when he has given reasons for not driving for either Ferrari and Mercedes but committed to Red Bull until 2020?

This is all about showing a united front when it seems to me obvious that if McLaren can't deliver then Alonso leaves at the end of the year.

So with one you have a commitment to a team that they will come good and deliver wins and titles in the next 3 years whilst the other is deliver or I'm gone.


It's thought Max got outs that he didn't have in his previous deal. His old deal had RB holding the option until the end of 2019 with only WCC position acting as a release. For 1 more year he's been given a big pay bump and better outs.

And one of them is 20 and hasn't had 3 seasons in the sport yet and the other is 36 and has more broken promises from teams than championships and hasn't had the best car in over 10 years. He's committed to a 4th and potentially 5th year to McLaren if both sides are happy.

And both McLaren and Alonso hold options as I understand it. If Norris dominates F2 next year and Vandoorne beats 37yr old Alonso then the bosses at Macca are going to be pretty over the moon they didn't lock 40m a year Alonso into a 3yr deal that runs until Alonso is 39.

And again, McLaren are perfectly happy with his level of commitment.

Sorry that makes no sense in relation to Verstappen, he had a contract until 2019 which he was unlikely to be able to break so Red Bull give him a new contract for more money and better clauses for him to leave Red Bull before his contract runs out in 2020, why would Red Bull do that?


To secure him for the extra year I think. It was being talked about on AS forum in a couple of threads. Technically his old deal ran out at the end of 2018 but it was thought RB had the option to extend for a further year but it was tied to WCC placing IIRC but it was never confirmed.

If that option wasn't so one-sided or assured and his leaving at the end of 2018 was a possibility then securing him longer would be attractive even if they have to give him some WDC tied outs like with Seb. You'd back his and your own competitiveness to be the security.

But who knows, we don't have copies of his previous or new contract so it's all rumours/guesswork really to be fair.

The 2019 option was that Red Bull had to finish lower than 3rd in the WCC which is highly unlikely, the rumour was that the Verstappens were negotiating for the option to be changed to 3rd in the WDC so making it easier for the option to be triggered.

So basically we are saying that Verstappen gets more money and is on a contract to make it easier to leave the team, that makes no sense for Red Bull unless they believe the option would be triggered that late in the season making Verstappen unavailable anyway unless either Ferrari or Mercedes were prepared to wait until the end of the season to see if Verstappen was going to be available?

Also how do we reconcile all this with Verstappen saying he is at Red Bull until 2020 and he's not going to Ferrari or Mercedes for all the reasons he has given, do these reasons all of a sudden become invalid?


That was the rumored 2019 option yes but not confirmed unless I missed it. The stuff about the outs in Max's contract is also rumoured. It could well be BS but as you've mentioned it was a rumoured want from the Verstappens to switch to a WDC out and Verstappen has extended so who knows.

It's all rumours as is every other when it comes to contract talk, we don't get copies unfortunately and whatever happened obviously made sense for both parties or they wouldn't have done it.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 21099
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He doesn't want to discuss the contract clauses which basically means he can leave the team whenever he pleases, this is the kind of contract he tried to negotiate at Ferrari but they would have none of it.

That's the mother of all assumptions, wouldn't you say? he doesn't want to discuss = he can leave whenever he wants? How do you draw that conclusion?

I'll assume because of all the secrecy around the contract.

Secrecy could be for any number of reasons. How many drivers publish their contracts for all to see? You can't assume there's an open get-out clause on the basis that they won't talk about it. And you certainly can't state it like it's any kind of fact

We don't even know how many years it's for, why the secrecy?

I've no idea, other than that I never disclose my contract specifics to anyone, so maybe Alonso has the same "it's none of your business" mindset?

Again, secrecy doesn't mean you can make assumptions about any part of it. The only thing you know for sure is that you don't know anything. You simply cannot make assumptions like you are doing


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 21099
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Were are the clauses in Verstappen's contract when he has given reasons for not driving for either Ferrari and Mercedes but committed to Red Bull until 2020?

This is all about showing a united front when it seems to me obvious that if McLaren can't deliver then Alonso leaves at the end of the year.

So with one you have a commitment to a team that they will come good and deliver wins and titles in the next 3 years whilst the other is deliver or I'm gone.


It's thought Max got outs that he didn't have in his previous deal. His old deal had RB holding the option until the end of 2019 with only WCC position acting as a release. For 1 more year he's been given a big pay bump and better outs.

And one of them is 20 and hasn't had 3 seasons in the sport yet and the other is 36 and has more broken promises from teams than championships and hasn't had the best car in over 10 years. He's committed to a 4th and potentially 5th year to McLaren if both sides are happy.

And both McLaren and Alonso hold options as I understand it. If Norris dominates F2 next year and Vandoorne beats 37yr old Alonso then the bosses at Macca are going to be pretty over the moon they didn't lock 40m a year Alonso into a 3yr deal that runs until Alonso is 39.

And again, McLaren are perfectly happy with his level of commitment.

Sorry that makes no sense in relation to Verstappen, he had a contract until 2019 which he was unlikely to be able to break so Red Bull give him a new contract for more money and better clauses for him to leave Red Bull before his contract runs out in 2020, why would Red Bull do that?


To secure him for the extra year I think. It was being talked about on AS forum in a couple of threads. Technically his old deal ran out at the end of 2018 but it was thought RB had the option to extend for a further year but it was tied to WCC placing IIRC but it was never confirmed.

If that option wasn't so one-sided or assured and his leaving at the end of 2018 was a possibility then securing him longer would be attractive even if they have to give him some WDC tied outs like with Seb. You'd back his and your own competitiveness to be the security.

But who knows, we don't have copies of his previous or new contract so it's all rumours/guesswork really to be fair.

The 2019 option was that Red Bull had to finish lower than 3rd in the WCC which is highly unlikely, the rumour was that the Verstappens were negotiating for the option to be changed to 3rd in the WDC so making it easier for the option to be triggered.

So basically we are saying that Verstappen gets more money and is on a contract to make it easier to leave the team, that makes no sense for Red Bull unless they believe the option would be triggered that late in the season making Verstappen unavailable anyway unless either Ferrari or Mercedes were prepared to wait until the end of the season to see if Verstappen was going to be available?

Also how do we reconcile all this with Verstappen saying he is at Red Bull until 2020 and he's not going to Ferrari or Mercedes for all the reasons he has given, do these reasons all of a sudden become invalid?

We don't have to reconcile it. People say all sorts of things in public that aren't necessarily a reflection of their private thoughts. And even if they are, they don't have to be immutable indefinitely. Don't confuse PR with openness.

There has to be a reason for Max to re-sign now, when he doesn't have to commit this early. So something in that contract has to be more beneficial to him.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 3667
Didn't really know where to put this but here will do as its about McLaren and also why Alonso may seem convinced about McLarens potential next year.

So a F1-AT (f1analisitecnica) techie tweeted this..



Rough translation is Honda are 80bhp down on Mercedes in Q3 which costs 1.7/1.8s in laptime at CoTA. Alonso was behind Lewis by 1.9 in Austin.

We also had a tweet showing that Alonso was quickest through T10 in Malaysia a few weeks ago. There's been good noises from AMuS about how McLaren work their tyres all year as well.


Credit Dan Wells for this YouTube comparison from Austin which is great. Shows where Alonso misses out to Lewis..




Anyway I thought it was interesting but not enough for a new thread. It could explain why McLaren felt they needed to ditch Honda as it genuinely looks like with equal power they would have been with the Top 3 teams over these past few races. I think if they can deal with the transition to Renault power without upsetting their aero concept too much they could spring a few surprises next year if Renault can get close enough.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 24075
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
It's thought Max got outs that he didn't have in his previous deal. His old deal had RB holding the option until the end of 2019 with only WCC position acting as a release. For 1 more year he's been given a big pay bump and better outs.

And one of them is 20 and hasn't had 3 seasons in the sport yet and the other is 36 and has more broken promises from teams than championships and hasn't had the best car in over 10 years. He's committed to a 4th and potentially 5th year to McLaren if both sides are happy.

And both McLaren and Alonso hold options as I understand it. If Norris dominates F2 next year and Vandoorne beats 37yr old Alonso then the bosses at Macca are going to be pretty over the moon they didn't lock 40m a year Alonso into a 3yr deal that runs until Alonso is 39.

And again, McLaren are perfectly happy with his level of commitment.

Sorry that makes no sense in relation to Verstappen, he had a contract until 2019 which he was unlikely to be able to break so Red Bull give him a new contract for more money and better clauses for him to leave Red Bull before his contract runs out in 2020, why would Red Bull do that?


To secure him for the extra year I think. It was being talked about on AS forum in a couple of threads. Technically his old deal ran out at the end of 2018 but it was thought RB had the option to extend for a further year but it was tied to WCC placing IIRC but it was never confirmed.

If that option wasn't so one-sided or assured and his leaving at the end of 2018 was a possibility then securing him longer would be attractive even if they have to give him some WDC tied outs like with Seb. You'd back his and your own competitiveness to be the security.

But who knows, we don't have copies of his previous or new contract so it's all rumours/guesswork really to be fair.

The 2019 option was that Red Bull had to finish lower than 3rd in the WCC which is highly unlikely, the rumour was that the Verstappens were negotiating for the option to be changed to 3rd in the WDC so making it easier for the option to be triggered.

So basically we are saying that Verstappen gets more money and is on a contract to make it easier to leave the team, that makes no sense for Red Bull unless they believe the option would be triggered that late in the season making Verstappen unavailable anyway unless either Ferrari or Mercedes were prepared to wait until the end of the season to see if Verstappen was going to be available?

Also how do we reconcile all this with Verstappen saying he is at Red Bull until 2020 and he's not going to Ferrari or Mercedes for all the reasons he has given, do these reasons all of a sudden become invalid?

We don't have to reconcile it. People say all sorts of things in public that aren't necessarily a reflection of their private thoughts. And even if they are, they don't have to be immutable indefinitely. Don't confuse PR with openness.

There has to be a reason for Max to re-sign now, when he doesn't have to commit this early. So something in that contract has to be more beneficial to him.

Dollars.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 24075
Lotus49 wrote:
Didn't really know where to put this but here will do as its about McLaren and also why Alonso may seem convinced about McLarens potential next year.

So a F1-AT (f1analisitecnica) techie tweeted this..



Rough translation is Honda are 80bhp down on Mercedes in Q3 which costs 1.7/1.8s in laptime at CoTA. Alonso was behind Lewis by 1.9 in Austin.

We also had a tweet showing that Alonso was quickest through T10 in Malaysia a few weeks ago. There's been good noises from AMuS about how McLaren work their tyres all year as well.


Credit Dan Wells for this YouTube comparison from Austin which is great. Shows where Alonso misses out to Lewis..




Anyway I thought it was interesting but not enough for a new thread. It could explain why McLaren felt they needed to ditch Honda as it genuinely looks like with equal power they would have been with the Top 3 teams over these past few races. I think if they can deal with the transition to Renault power without upsetting their aero concept too much they could spring a few surprises next year if Renault can get close enough.

I think most of us would like to see McLaren back up nearer the pointy end of the grid especially with Alonso in the mix were he deserves to be.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 21099
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Didn't really know where to put this but here will do as its about McLaren and also why Alonso may seem convinced about McLarens potential next year.

So a F1-AT (f1analisitecnica) techie tweeted this..



Rough translation is Honda are 80bhp down on Mercedes in Q3 which costs 1.7/1.8s in laptime at CoTA. Alonso was behind Lewis by 1.9 in Austin.

We also had a tweet showing that Alonso was quickest through T10 in Malaysia a few weeks ago. There's been good noises from AMuS about how McLaren work their tyres all year as well.


Credit Dan Wells for this YouTube comparison from Austin which is great. Shows where Alonso misses out to Lewis..




Anyway I thought it was interesting but not enough for a new thread. It could explain why McLaren felt they needed to ditch Honda as it genuinely looks like with equal power they would have been with the Top 3 teams over these past few races. I think if they can deal with the transition to Renault power without upsetting their aero concept too much they could spring a few surprises next year if Renault can get close enough.

I think most of us would like to see McLaren back up nearer the pointy end of the grid especially with Alonso in the mix were he deserves to be.

:thumbup:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 21099
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Sorry that makes no sense in relation to Verstappen, he had a contract until 2019 which he was unlikely to be able to break so Red Bull give him a new contract for more money and better clauses for him to leave Red Bull before his contract runs out in 2020, why would Red Bull do that?


To secure him for the extra year I think. It was being talked about on AS forum in a couple of threads. Technically his old deal ran out at the end of 2018 but it was thought RB had the option to extend for a further year but it was tied to WCC placing IIRC but it was never confirmed.

If that option wasn't so one-sided or assured and his leaving at the end of 2018 was a possibility then securing him longer would be attractive even if they have to give him some WDC tied outs like with Seb. You'd back his and your own competitiveness to be the security.

But who knows, we don't have copies of his previous or new contract so it's all rumours/guesswork really to be fair.

The 2019 option was that Red Bull had to finish lower than 3rd in the WCC which is highly unlikely, the rumour was that the Verstappens were negotiating for the option to be changed to 3rd in the WDC so making it easier for the option to be triggered.

So basically we are saying that Verstappen gets more money and is on a contract to make it easier to leave the team, that makes no sense for Red Bull unless they believe the option would be triggered that late in the season making Verstappen unavailable anyway unless either Ferrari or Mercedes were prepared to wait until the end of the season to see if Verstappen was going to be available?

Also how do we reconcile all this with Verstappen saying he is at Red Bull until 2020 and he's not going to Ferrari or Mercedes for all the reasons he has given, do these reasons all of a sudden become invalid?

We don't have to reconcile it. People say all sorts of things in public that aren't necessarily a reflection of their private thoughts. And even if they are, they don't have to be immutable indefinitely. Don't confuse PR with openness.

There has to be a reason for Max to re-sign now, when he doesn't have to commit this early. So something in that contract has to be more beneficial to him.

Dollars.

Quite possibly. Quite possibly other things, too, like building a team around him, for instance. You're quite quick with the assumptions but you don't actually know


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 24075
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
To secure him for the extra year I think. It was being talked about on AS forum in a couple of threads. Technically his old deal ran out at the end of 2018 but it was thought RB had the option to extend for a further year but it was tied to WCC placing IIRC but it was never confirmed.

If that option wasn't so one-sided or assured and his leaving at the end of 2018 was a possibility then securing him longer would be attractive even if they have to give him some WDC tied outs like with Seb. You'd back his and your own competitiveness to be the security.

But who knows, we don't have copies of his previous or new contract so it's all rumours/guesswork really to be fair.

The 2019 option was that Red Bull had to finish lower than 3rd in the WCC which is highly unlikely, the rumour was that the Verstappens were negotiating for the option to be changed to 3rd in the WDC so making it easier for the option to be triggered.

So basically we are saying that Verstappen gets more money and is on a contract to make it easier to leave the team, that makes no sense for Red Bull unless they believe the option would be triggered that late in the season making Verstappen unavailable anyway unless either Ferrari or Mercedes were prepared to wait until the end of the season to see if Verstappen was going to be available?

Also how do we reconcile all this with Verstappen saying he is at Red Bull until 2020 and he's not going to Ferrari or Mercedes for all the reasons he has given, do these reasons all of a sudden become invalid?

We don't have to reconcile it. People say all sorts of things in public that aren't necessarily a reflection of their private thoughts. And even if they are, they don't have to be immutable indefinitely. Don't confuse PR with openness.

There has to be a reason for Max to re-sign now, when he doesn't have to commit this early. So something in that contract has to be more beneficial to him.

Dollars.

Quite possibly. Quite possibly other things, too, like building a team around him, for instance. You're quite quick with the assumptions but you don't actually know

$30M for 3 years + bonuses has been mooted.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 4279
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Didn't really know where to put this but here will do as its about McLaren and also why Alonso may seem convinced about McLarens potential next year.

So a F1-AT (f1analisitecnica) techie tweeted this..



Rough translation is Honda are 80bhp down on Mercedes in Q3 which costs 1.7/1.8s in laptime at CoTA. Alonso was behind Lewis by 1.9 in Austin.

We also had a tweet showing that Alonso was quickest through T10 in Malaysia a few weeks ago. There's been good noises from AMuS about how McLaren work their tyres all year as well.


Credit Dan Wells for this YouTube comparison from Austin which is great. Shows where Alonso misses out to Lewis..




Anyway I thought it was interesting but not enough for a new thread. It could explain why McLaren felt they needed to ditch Honda as it genuinely looks like with equal power they would have been with the Top 3 teams over these past few races. I think if they can deal with the transition to Renault power without upsetting their aero concept too much they could spring a few surprises next year if Renault can get close enough.

I think most of us would like to see McLaren back up nearer the pointy end of the grid especially with Alonso in the mix were he deserves to be.

:thumbup:

Here here. I think we'll have that 2012-like season that we've been hoping for next season. It's already become quite close between the top three and I think McLaren will be in the mix next season (and possibly Renault).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 21099
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The 2019 option was that Red Bull had to finish lower than 3rd in the WCC which is highly unlikely, the rumour was that the Verstappens were negotiating for the option to be changed to 3rd in the WDC so making it easier for the option to be triggered.

So basically we are saying that Verstappen gets more money and is on a contract to make it easier to leave the team, that makes no sense for Red Bull unless they believe the option would be triggered that late in the season making Verstappen unavailable anyway unless either Ferrari or Mercedes were prepared to wait until the end of the season to see if Verstappen was going to be available?

Also how do we reconcile all this with Verstappen saying he is at Red Bull until 2020 and he's not going to Ferrari or Mercedes for all the reasons he has given, do these reasons all of a sudden become invalid?

We don't have to reconcile it. People say all sorts of things in public that aren't necessarily a reflection of their private thoughts. And even if they are, they don't have to be immutable indefinitely. Don't confuse PR with openness.

There has to be a reason for Max to re-sign now, when he doesn't have to commit this early. So something in that contract has to be more beneficial to him.

Dollars.

Quite possibly. Quite possibly other things, too, like building a team around him, for instance. You're quite quick with the assumptions but you don't actually know

$30M for 3 years + bonuses has been mooted.

Yeah of course they are going to pay arguably the hottest talent in the sport a stonking wage, although $30M for three years isn't exactly breathtaking by some standards these days. And as I said, it's possible that he chose for the money, in much the same way that many drivers have done so in the past. But you can't make the assumption that the reason he extended was because of the money, because you have nothing to base that on


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 24075
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
We don't have to reconcile it. People say all sorts of things in public that aren't necessarily a reflection of their private thoughts. And even if they are, they don't have to be immutable indefinitely. Don't confuse PR with openness.

There has to be a reason for Max to re-sign now, when he doesn't have to commit this early. So something in that contract has to be more beneficial to him.

Dollars.

Quite possibly. Quite possibly other things, too, like building a team around him, for instance. You're quite quick with the assumptions but you don't actually know

$30M for 3 years + bonuses has been mooted.

Yeah of course they are going to pay arguably the hottest talent in the sport a stonking wage, although $30M for three years isn't exactly breathtaking by some standards these days. And as I said, it's possible that he chose for the money, in much the same way that many drivers have done so in the past. But you can't make the assumption that the reason he extended was because of the money, because you have nothing to base that on

Well he's going to be paid a lot more than his original contract that went to 2019, and win bonuses can ramp that up, I believe that Vettel was on a similar contract when he was at Red Bull?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 21099
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Dollars.

Quite possibly. Quite possibly other things, too, like building a team around him, for instance. You're quite quick with the assumptions but you don't actually know

$30M for 3 years + bonuses has been mooted.

Yeah of course they are going to pay arguably the hottest talent in the sport a stonking wage, although $30M for three years isn't exactly breathtaking by some standards these days. And as I said, it's possible that he chose for the money, in much the same way that many drivers have done so in the past. But you can't make the assumption that the reason he extended was because of the money, because you have nothing to base that on

Well he's going to be paid a lot more than his original contract that went to 2019, and win bonuses can ramp that up, I believe that Vettel was on a similar contract when he was at Red Bull?

I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing your assumption that that's the reason for him re-signing


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 24075
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Quite possibly. Quite possibly other things, too, like building a team around him, for instance. You're quite quick with the assumptions but you don't actually know

$30M for 3 years + bonuses has been mooted.

Yeah of course they are going to pay arguably the hottest talent in the sport a stonking wage, although $30M for three years isn't exactly breathtaking by some standards these days. And as I said, it's possible that he chose for the money, in much the same way that many drivers have done so in the past. But you can't make the assumption that the reason he extended was because of the money, because you have nothing to base that on

Well he's going to be paid a lot more than his original contract that went to 2019, and win bonuses can ramp that up, I believe that Vettel was on a similar contract when he was at Red Bull?

I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing your assumption that that's the reason for him re-signing

It's a good reason for him to extend his contract by only 1 year, the third year basically pays $20M plus 3 years of bonuses.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 21099
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
$30M for 3 years + bonuses has been mooted.

Yeah of course they are going to pay arguably the hottest talent in the sport a stonking wage, although $30M for three years isn't exactly breathtaking by some standards these days. And as I said, it's possible that he chose for the money, in much the same way that many drivers have done so in the past. But you can't make the assumption that the reason he extended was because of the money, because you have nothing to base that on

Well he's going to be paid a lot more than his original contract that went to 2019, and win bonuses can ramp that up, I believe that Vettel was on a similar contract when he was at Red Bull?

I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing your assumption that that's the reason for him re-signing

It's a good reason for him to extend his contract by only 1 year, the third year basically pays $20M plus 3 years of bonuses.

I'm getting the feeling you don't understand what I'm saying. Being a potentially valid reason doesn't automatically make it the reason


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 9734
Location: Ireland
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Didn't really know where to put this but here will do as its about McLaren and also why Alonso may seem convinced about McLarens potential next year.

So a F1-AT (f1analisitecnica) techie tweeted this..



Rough translation is Honda are 80bhp down on Mercedes in Q3 which costs 1.7/1.8s in laptime at CoTA. Alonso was behind Lewis by 1.9 in Austin.

We also had a tweet showing that Alonso was quickest through T10 in Malaysia a few weeks ago. There's been good noises from AMuS about how McLaren work their tyres all year as well.


Credit Dan Wells for this YouTube comparison from Austin which is great. Shows where Alonso misses out to Lewis..




Anyway I thought it was interesting but not enough for a new thread. It could explain why McLaren felt they needed to ditch Honda as it genuinely looks like with equal power they would have been with the Top 3 teams over these past few races. I think if they can deal with the transition to Renault power without upsetting their aero concept too much they could spring a few surprises next year if Renault can get close enough.

I think most of us would like to see McLaren back up nearer the pointy end of the grid especially with Alonso in the mix were he deserves to be.

:thumbup:

Here here. I think we'll have that 2012-like season that we've been hoping for next season. It's already become quite close between the top three and I think McLaren will be in the mix next season (and possibly Renault).

Stop that, you're making me salivate

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group