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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:17 am 
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MasterRacer wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:
@MasterRacer

You must be a very fun guy to watch F1 with. Arrogantly boasting? You really see it that way? Then it's going to be a one way conversation I guess.

This is pure racing amd that's what we like to see. We can talk about the penalty, and I understand the idea behind the penalty, but this was pure class.



Well he was arrogantly boasting to Seb about his move. That's a fact.

Pure racing means staying on the racing track.

Do you remember seeing Vettel go all 4 wheels off the track at the start into turn 1???


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:18 am 
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Someone mentioned football and them not being able to enforce rules. Absolutely not correct. Football has always had very strict and rules about lines and ball going out and they have been always enforced. The problem was to actually detect when the ball is in/out. There has never been any doubt if to enforce the rule, once a violation of it is recognized. Hence they introduced the tech to strictly detect when the rules is broken and enforce it.
In F1, on the contrary, there has never been any doubt when a car is off track because of the various cams and technology used (which until officially introduced was not used as a proof in football), but they have been often ambiguous at applying those rules.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:19 am 
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tootsie323 wrote:
Seeing Max's onboard, Kimi squeezed him (most likely not intentionally). It was probably worth a bit more of a review before issuing the penalty,

Just no!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:21 am 
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There was enough space for Max had he slowed down a bit to stay in track limits. He just decided to go down to the metal through the cut seeing an opportunity to pass Kimi. Probably too much adrenaline and not thinking he is actually gaining advantage while cutting the curve.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:22 am 
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lamo wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
lamo wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks Max didn’t have all 4 wheels off the road?

Maybe I need to see more angles but it looked from the outside view he did not have all four off. Looks like he did on the on board but you cant see the rears.

https://twitter.com/FisiFan91/status/922206734973890564
I mean I suppose you still can't see the rear wheels, but he'd have to be seriously crabbing to have them on the track :)

Are his rear off track here? That’s my points.
From the outside view all four wheels aren’t off at one time to my eyes. In fact, judging by the radius of that turn and his car is straight, his rears are likely on the track at the time of that picture.

All 4 went off at the same time


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:24 am 
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Mayhem wrote:
Llotyhy wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:


The response will be here that it's turn 1 and first lap and that that's the reason. In the replies to that tweet is also the example of Sainz passing Perez and doing the same thing as Max, and nothing was done about that either, which makes it an even stronger case.


in the post race interview versteppen brought up a good point in stating that bottas ran off track when he was fighting with him for position and returned on track ahead of him and no penalty was given. which just illustrates how inconsistent the penalties are in F1 and as we have discussed before on this forum drivers are singled out while others are free to do as they wish

Because he got back passed quickly.

There was no lasting advantage.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:26 am 
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lamo wrote:
He only had all four wheels off for about 1 car length, at those speeds probably about 0.1 of a second. He was unlucky he nearly measured it correctly, the penalty was quite harsh. The onboard makes it look a lot worse than it was.

Therefore guilty.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:28 am 
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lamo wrote:
I’ve just seen on a replay that Hamilton was clocking 337 to Vettels 305 when he overtook him. Closing a 0.750 gap in one straight?

How is that even possible? 32 kph is the largest gap I’ve seen for an overtake for a long time. Did Vettel get a bad exit from the corner leading onto the straight or something?

Was the slipstream and DRS affect huge this race? We saw a lot of cars of quite similar pace be able to overtake one another, something I don’t remember happening in many years.

Engine he put his engine into qualy mode.

Qualy mode > DRS > Battery boost > Slipstream.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:36 am 
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I'm not sure what direction the wind was from when LH overtook SV but LH described the grip he got from driving into the wind as significantly increasing the downforce on the car meaning he could "lunge harder" if the wind was favourable.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:36 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I think you're being overly harsh. When Perez spoke on team radio he was faster and has caught up quickly. He doesn't know Ocon's cruising and not at full pace. Seeing as they're no longer allowed to race he has to ask to be allowed past. And he hardly got humiliated. He started a few places lower on the grid and finished around 10 seconds ahead.


Perez started 3 places down (Ocon > Sainz > Alonso > Perez), and ended up 2 places down (Alonso's PU gave up the ghost so Ocon > Sainz > Perez). In not even a full stint he went from being right at the back of Ocon (and being bullish about his own pace) to finishing more than 15 seconds behind.

That's pretty damning if you ask me... It's not per sé that his race result was so bad, but the fact that he finished so far behind after boasting about having so much more pace is. Sure, at the time he appeared faster, but then his tyre management was plain bad and that's still on him.

Quote:
That being said if I was Perez I'd start to worry. The balance has shifted from Perez always being ahead to Perez sometimes being ahead. That would concern me going into next season especially as drivers usually do improve as they go into their second full year.

The other thing is that with Renault improving and Mclaren using their engines next year FI will be doing very well not to drop back. Chances to impress may well be harder to come by next year.

I still think Perez is the best driver outside the big 5 and overall has had a strong season but he has to reassert himself and start beating Ocon all the time again.


Agree with most of this but I'm thinking about your last paragraph. If Perez is at #6, then by now Ocon is probably right up there too, and depending on how Sainz looks against Hulk he might join that little group too.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:37 am 
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About the Max discussion: most will know I'm a Verstappen fan. However this, slam dunk penalty. All four wheels clearly off, no contest.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:46 am 
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mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think you're being overly harsh. When Perez spoke on team radio he was faster and has caught up quickly. He doesn't know Ocon's cruising and not at full pace. Seeing as they're no longer allowed to race he has to ask to be allowed past. And he hardly got humiliated. He started a few places lower on the grid and finished around 10 seconds ahead.


Perez started 3 places down (Ocon > Sainz > Alonso > Perez), and ended up one place down (Alonso's PU gave up the ghost so Ocon > Sainz > Perez). In not even a full stint he went from being right at the back of Ocon (and being bullish about his own pace) to finishing more than 15 seconds behind.

That's pretty damning if you ask me... It's not per sé that his race result was so bad, but the fact that he finished so far behind after boasting about having so much more pace is. Sure, at the time he appeared faster, but then his tyre management was plain bad and that's still on him.

Quote:
That being said if I was Perez I'd start to worry. The balance has shifted from Perez always being ahead to Perez sometimes being ahead. That would concern me going into next season especially as drivers usually do improve as they go into their second full year.

The other thing is that with Renault improving and Mclaren using their engines next year FI will be doing very well not to drop back. Chances to impress may well be harder to come by next year.

I still think Perez is the best driver outside the big 5 and overall has had a strong season but he has to reassert himself and start beating Ocon all the time again.


Agree with most of this but I'm thinking about your last paragraph. If Perez is at #6, then by now Ocon is probably right up there too, and depending on how Sainz looks against Hulk he might join that little group too.


In terms of being harsh I was really meaning criticising Perez for asking to be let passed. Obviously Ocon was better over the weekend.

Ocon is performing well at the moment. He just needs to keep it up for a bit longer for me but he may well be that good or above. Who knows at this stage.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:21 am 
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pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
moby wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:
@MasterRacer

You must be a very fun guy to watch F1 with. Arrogantly boasting? You really see it that way? Then it's going to be a one way conversation I guess.

This is pure racing amd that's what we like to see. We can talk about the penalty, and I understand the idea behind the penalty, but this was pure class.

If anyone else did this move I would have enjoyed it as much and I would feel the same. I like to see racing and that's what F1 needs now the most.

Kimi drove a good race. He knew 3rd place was not his and he's a sportsman who doesn't want to be there on that podium like this.
There was one good thing about the pass; seeing Kimi's expression when Max saw him, and Max's smile when he saw Kimi, because Max knew the pass wasn't valid.


I was impressed with the way Max handled it. He would not have been like that last year. He is only going to get better

Yea I was too. One thing I can respect about Verstappen that I never used to is his attitude. He is way better now at dealing with these things.

Neither him or his Father handled it well at all.

Well all I saw was the way he went out of the podium room on Channel 4. At the time, they didn't show anything else because of adverts. Now I am hearing the other things he's saying, I'm starting to think he's being unreasonable. And people comparing it to other drivers seem to be missing something. A lot that they are comparing are drivers going quite wide on the outside of a corner. Verstappen cut a huge amount of the corner off on the inside which surely is a much bigger advantage. To me it is clear why this and not any other drivers going off track got investigated and got given a penalty. Even the guys on Channel 4 were unsure why Bottas and Ricciardo were under investigation. They thought it was great racing by both.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:45 am 
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The videos and pics are much clearer now making the decision easier to understand. On that basis Kimi can only defend up to the track limits before leaving the circuit altogether himself.

It still doesn't take away the consistency argument and where overtakes have happened off track they should have been penalised. There is much about the stewarding system that needs addressing. I wonder if Verstappen was fully aware of his infraction when he made his comments? When you relook at the interview it does seem to be spur of the moment and emotionally charged.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:49 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well all I saw was the way he went out of the podium room on Channel 4. At the time, they didn't show anything else because of adverts. Now I am hearing the other things he's saying, I'm starting to think he's being unreasonable. And people comparing it to other drivers seem to be missing something. A lot that they are comparing are drivers going quite wide on the outside of a corner. Verstappen cut a huge amount of the corner off on the inside which surely is a much bigger advantage. To me it is clear why this and not any other drivers going off track got investigated and got given a penalty. Even the guys on Channel 4 were unsure why Bottas and Ricciardo were under investigation. They thought it was great racing by both.


cut the corner by a huge amount?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:51 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Pretty open-and-shut penalty, from my point of view. Max couldn't have made the pass without leaving the track, he wasn't forced off track, and he didn't return the position. How is that not a penalty, honestly?

Because it goes against the precedent set in 2016 where Verstappen can do whatever he wants and the rest of F1 has to laud him as the second coming of Christ.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:56 am 
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mds wrote:
Comments on Perez vs Ocon, anyone? Perez all bullish over the team radio and then pretty much gets humiliated by Ocon?

I have this feeling that Perez is starting to feel a bit insecure over Ocon being so close to him. In the beginning of the season he was better but since Monaco Ocon has outscored Perez and the finished ahead count (when both finished) is equal. I also have the idea that Perez (and a lot of his vocal fans) feels entitled to getting #1 status because he is bringing a lot of money.

Funniest part of the weekend for me.

Comes on the radio whining about Ocon's pace, basically gets told 'there's a reason Ocon is driving at this pace, idiot', claims he should be let through, Ocon responds by immediately pulling a 4 second gap while Perez gets overtaken by Sainz.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:24 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well all I saw was the way he went out of the podium room on Channel 4. At the time, they didn't show anything else because of adverts. Now I am hearing the other things he's saying, I'm starting to think he's being unreasonable. And people comparing it to other drivers seem to be missing something. A lot that they are comparing are drivers going quite wide on the outside of a corner. Verstappen cut a huge amount of the corner off on the inside which surely is a much bigger advantage. To me it is clear why this and not any other drivers going off track got investigated and got given a penalty. Even the guys on Channel 4 were unsure why Bottas and Ricciardo were under investigation. They thought it was great racing by both.


cut the corner by a huge amount?

I think so yes and I don't think I'm the only one. On the video, you can see that when he's off track on the inside of the corner, you can see a large wide chunk of the kerb on his left on a right hand corner! If that isn't cutting the corner by a huge amount, then I don't know what is...

For example, many said that in Spa 2015, Maldoano cut this corner massively: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxNC2-YZBPA

At 2 minutes. Not this isn't an overtake, and it does lead to a retirement. But him doing this seemed to trigger loads to say he was trying to cut the corner. Even if he didn't retire, he'll have gained nothing like the advantage Verstappen gained in yesterdays race. I still stand by the fact that I think Verstappen cut the corner by a huge amount and that penalty was certainly deserved as he gained an advantage from doing so as well as going beyond track limits.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:36 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well all I saw was the way he went out of the podium room on Channel 4. At the time, they didn't show anything else because of adverts. Now I am hearing the other things he's saying, I'm starting to think he's being unreasonable. And people comparing it to other drivers seem to be missing something. A lot that they are comparing are drivers going quite wide on the outside of a corner. Verstappen cut a huge amount of the corner off on the inside which surely is a much bigger advantage. To me it is clear why this and not any other drivers going off track got investigated and got given a penalty. Even the guys on Channel 4 were unsure why Bottas and Ricciardo were under investigation. They thought it was great racing by both.


cut the corner by a huge amount?

I think so yes and I don't think I'm the only one. On the video, you can see that when he's off track on the inside of the corner, you can see a large wide chunk of the kerb on his left on a right hand corner! If that isn't cutting the corner by a huge amount, then I don't know what is...

For example, many said that in Spa 2015, Maldoano cut this corner massively: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxNC2-YZBPA

At 2 minutes. Not this isn't an overtake, and it does lead to a retirement. But him doing this seemed to trigger loads to say he was trying to cut the corner. Even if he didn't retire, he'll have gained nothing like the advantage Verstappen gained in yesterdays race. I still stand by the fact that I think Verstappen cut the corner by a huge amount and that penalty was certainly deserved as he gained an advantage from doing so as well as going beyond track limits.


TBF I think it depends on the context. When you say cut hugely I'm thinking of Hamilton at turn 1 in Mexico last year not over the line by a meter.

I find it a bit odd when you describe that as huge but then talk about drivers going "quite" wide.... I saw drivers defending and gaining positions by going further off the track on the outside than Verstappen did on the inside.

Either way, it's a moot point. The penalty was deserved and had to be applied. To not would set an awful precedent. I do understand why Verstappen may feel a bit persecuted though.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:08 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well all I saw was the way he went out of the podium room on Channel 4. At the time, they didn't show anything else because of adverts. Now I am hearing the other things he's saying, I'm starting to think he's being unreasonable. And people comparing it to other drivers seem to be missing something. A lot that they are comparing are drivers going quite wide on the outside of a corner. Verstappen cut a huge amount of the corner off on the inside which surely is a much bigger advantage. To me it is clear why this and not any other drivers going off track got investigated and got given a penalty. Even the guys on Channel 4 were unsure why Bottas and Ricciardo were under investigation. They thought it was great racing by both.


cut the corner by a huge amount?

I think so yes and I don't think I'm the only one. On the video, you can see that when he's off track on the inside of the corner, you can see a large wide chunk of the kerb on his left on a right hand corner! If that isn't cutting the corner by a huge amount, then I don't know what is...

For example, many said that in Spa 2015, Maldoano cut this corner massively: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxNC2-YZBPA

At 2 minutes. Not this isn't an overtake, and it does lead to a retirement. But him doing this seemed to trigger loads to say he was trying to cut the corner. Even if he didn't retire, he'll have gained nothing like the advantage Verstappen gained in yesterdays race. I still stand by the fact that I think Verstappen cut the corner by a huge amount and that penalty was certainly deserved as he gained an advantage from doing so as well as going beyond track limits.


TBF I think it depends on the context. When you say cut hugely I'm thinking of Hamilton at turn 1 in Mexico last year not over the line by a meter.

I find it a bit odd when you describe that as huge but then talk about drivers going "quite" wide.... I saw drivers defending and gaining positions by going further off the track on the outside than Verstappen did on the inside.

Either way, it's a moot point. The penalty was deserved and had to be applied. To not would set an awful precedent. I do understand why Verstappen may feel a bit persecuted though.

Fair enough. I'm not being very fair i suppose when I say quite wide. But going very wide on the outside is much less of an advantage than Verstappen cutting as much of the corner on the inside as he did. So that was my main point. But I probably should have worded it differently.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:35 am 
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mds wrote:
About the Max discussion: most will know I'm a Verstappen fan. However this, slam dunk penalty. All four wheels clearly off, no contest.

Kudos to you, man. :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:54 am 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
versteppen vs kimi overtake


Thanks, couldn't watch the race. Only had a livefeed to read.
The penalty is fair, it's similar to the one that Vettel got in Germany 2012, his overtake on Button, so consistency there atleast!
Verstappen has himself to blame, it would have been a great move, and by the looks of it surely he could have kept the car on the track?


No problem, figured not everyone was able to see it...

Versteppen vs kimi ALL ANGLES

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:07 am 
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Clarky wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Seeing Max's onboard, Kimi squeezed him (most likely not intentionally). It was probably worth a bit more of a review before issuing the penalty,
Just no!
Seen it from Kimi's onboard too - actually, nothing really to argue here!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:40 am 
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Zoue wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
Formula 1's new attitude to Youtube seems to be dealing with the situation the correct way, i.e. by putting up the video most people want to see straight after the race for all to see* in full and in good quality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP6zj5_igiE

*I assume for all to see, it's not geoblocked in the UK at least, albeit embedding doesn't work

yeah that video shows it wasn't even close. He went well off the track. I think it was the right call

Has lamo seen this?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:42 am 
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mds wrote:
Comments on Perez vs Ocon, anyone? Perez all bullish over the team radio and then pretty much gets humiliated by Ocon?

I have this feeling that Perez is starting to feel a bit insecure over Ocon being so close to him. In the beginning of the season he was better but since Monaco Ocon has outscored Perez and the finished ahead count (when both finished) is equal. I also have the idea that Perez (and a lot of his vocal fans) feels entitled to getting #1 status because he is bringing a lot of money.

I'm contemplating summarising the race which will include a piece lambasting Perez. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:46 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
The stewards have been quite linient throughout the weekend for exceeding track limits. However, I feel Verstappen got the penalty (apart from having all the 4 wheels outside the line) also because he overtook Raikkonen for the final spot on the podium!

100% agree.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:47 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Comments on Perez vs Ocon, anyone? Perez all bullish over the team radio and then pretty much gets humiliated by Ocon?

I have this feeling that Perez is starting to feel a bit insecure over Ocon being so close to him. In the beginning of the season he was better but since Monaco Ocon has outscored Perez and the finished ahead count (when both finished) is equal. I also have the idea that Perez (and a lot of his vocal fans) feels entitled to getting #1 status because he is bringing a lot of money.

I'm contemplating summarising the race which will include a piece lambasting Perez. :)


Shock.

I don't know what you've got against the guy or what on earth he did yesterday that was so bad?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:48 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
Comments on Perez vs Ocon, anyone? Perez all bullish over the team radio and then pretty much gets humiliated by Ocon?

I have this feeling that Perez is starting to feel a bit insecure over Ocon being so close to him. In the beginning of the season he was better but since Monaco Ocon has outscored Perez and the finished ahead count (when both finished) is equal. I also have the idea that Perez (and a lot of his vocal fans) feels entitled to getting #1 status because he is bringing a lot of money.


I think you're being overly harsh. When Perez spoke on team radio he was faster and has caught up quickly. He doesn't know Ocon's cruising and not at full pace. Seeing as they're no longer allowed to race he has to ask to be allowed past. And he hardly got humiliated. He started a few places lower on the grid and finished around 10 seconds ahead.

That being said if I was Perez I'd start to worry. The balance has shifted from Perez always being ahead to Perez sometimes being ahead. That would concern me going into next season especially as drivers usually do improve as they go into their second full year.

The other thing is that with Renault improving and Mclaren using their engines next year FI will be doing very well not to drop back. Chances to impress may well be harder to come by next year.

I still think Perez is the best driver outside the big 5 and overall has had a strong season but he has to reassert himself and start beating Ocon all the time again.

First of all Ocon was being held up by Massa, after Perez was told that Ocon was looking after the tyres and could go faster he asked to be let by a second time because Sainz was catching them, Perez ran out of tyres, he used them up catching Ocon the only driver he really wants to beat.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:51 am 
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mds wrote:
About the Max discussion: most will know I'm a Verstappen fan. However this, slam dunk penalty. All four wheels clearly off, no contest.

:thumbup:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:51 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
Comments on Perez vs Ocon, anyone? Perez all bullish over the team radio and then pretty much gets humiliated by Ocon?

I have this feeling that Perez is starting to feel a bit insecure over Ocon being so close to him. In the beginning of the season he was better but since Monaco Ocon has outscored Perez and the finished ahead count (when both finished) is equal. I also have the idea that Perez (and a lot of his vocal fans) feels entitled to getting #1 status because he is bringing a lot of money.


I think you're being overly harsh. When Perez spoke on team radio he was faster and has caught up quickly. He doesn't know Ocon's cruising and not at full pace. Seeing as they're no longer allowed to race he has to ask to be allowed past. And he hardly got humiliated. He started a few places lower on the grid and finished around 10 seconds ahead.

That being said if I was Perez I'd start to worry. The balance has shifted from Perez always being ahead to Perez sometimes being ahead. That would concern me going into next season especially as drivers usually do improve as they go into their second full year.

The other thing is that with Renault improving and Mclaren using their engines next year FI will be doing very well not to drop back. Chances to impress may well be harder to come by next year.

I still think Perez is the best driver outside the big 5 and overall has had a strong season but he has to reassert himself and start beating Ocon all the time again.

First of all Ocon was being held up by Massa, after Perez was told that Ocon was looking after the tyres and could go faster he asked to be let by a second time because Sainz was catching them, Perez ran out of tyres, he used them up catching Ocon the only driver he really wants to beat.


What's wrong with asking to be allowed passed? He isn't allowed to overtake so surely he has to at least ask. His only other choice is just to accept he's beaten.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:53 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well all I saw was the way he went out of the podium room on Channel 4. At the time, they didn't show anything else because of adverts. Now I am hearing the other things he's saying, I'm starting to think he's being unreasonable. And people comparing it to other drivers seem to be missing something. A lot that they are comparing are drivers going quite wide on the outside of a corner. Verstappen cut a huge amount of the corner off on the inside which surely is a much bigger advantage. To me it is clear why this and not any other drivers going off track got investigated and got given a penalty. Even the guys on Channel 4 were unsure why Bottas and Ricciardo were under investigation. They thought it was great racing by both.


cut the corner by a huge amount?

That's what he did basically.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:54 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well all I saw was the way he went out of the podium room on Channel 4. At the time, they didn't show anything else because of adverts. Now I am hearing the other things he's saying, I'm starting to think he's being unreasonable. And people comparing it to other drivers seem to be missing something. A lot that they are comparing are drivers going quite wide on the outside of a corner. Verstappen cut a huge amount of the corner off on the inside which surely is a much bigger advantage. To me it is clear why this and not any other drivers going off track got investigated and got given a penalty. Even the guys on Channel 4 were unsure why Bottas and Ricciardo were under investigation. They thought it was great racing by both.


cut the corner by a huge amount?

That's what he did basically.


He cut the corner. I think "a huge amount" is an odd way to describe a cars width.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:57 am 
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Four wheels of yes that is a penalty. Nobody is talking about that being wrong, it's the inconsistency of the FIA when giving these penalties. They never asked the drivers in question for their opinion. Something they would do in the future as has been told.

Mario Andretti says Max got pushed outside so he had to avoid it by going over the line. Believe whatever you want but everybody can see that the FIA needs to be more clear about the rules and execute them as such.

Hamiltons statement about bringing back the grass so drivers won't cross those lines is also valid. They need to talk about this and do it for F1 to become a real racing sport again.

Inconsistency of the FIA is what kills it here, not the said penalty.


Last edited by Verstappen33 on Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:58 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Comments on Perez vs Ocon, anyone? Perez all bullish over the team radio and then pretty much gets humiliated by Ocon?

I have this feeling that Perez is starting to feel a bit insecure over Ocon being so close to him. In the beginning of the season he was better but since Monaco Ocon has outscored Perez and the finished ahead count (when both finished) is equal. I also have the idea that Perez (and a lot of his vocal fans) feels entitled to getting #1 status because he is bringing a lot of money.

I'm contemplating summarising the race which will include a piece lambasting Perez. :)


Shock.

I don't know what you've got against the guy or what on earth he did yesterday that was so bad?

He totally showed himself up, I'm faster than Ocon then finished about 15 seconds behind him, even after they explained what Ocon was doing he still asked to be let by and lets's not forget that Ocon was being held up by Massa.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:00 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
Comments on Perez vs Ocon, anyone? Perez all bullish over the team radio and then pretty much gets humiliated by Ocon?

I have this feeling that Perez is starting to feel a bit insecure over Ocon being so close to him. In the beginning of the season he was better but since Monaco Ocon has outscored Perez and the finished ahead count (when both finished) is equal. I also have the idea that Perez (and a lot of his vocal fans) feels entitled to getting #1 status because he is bringing a lot of money.


I think you're being overly harsh. When Perez spoke on team radio he was faster and has caught up quickly. He doesn't know Ocon's cruising and not at full pace. Seeing as they're no longer allowed to race he has to ask to be allowed past. And he hardly got humiliated. He started a few places lower on the grid and finished around 10 seconds ahead.

That being said if I was Perez I'd start to worry. The balance has shifted from Perez always being ahead to Perez sometimes being ahead. That would concern me going into next season especially as drivers usually do improve as they go into their second full year.

The other thing is that with Renault improving and Mclaren using their engines next year FI will be doing very well not to drop back. Chances to impress may well be harder to come by next year.

I still think Perez is the best driver outside the big 5 and overall has had a strong season but he has to reassert himself and start beating Ocon all the time again.

First of all Ocon was being held up by Massa, after Perez was told that Ocon was looking after the tyres and could go faster he asked to be let by a second time because Sainz was catching them, Perez ran out of tyres, he used them up catching Ocon the only driver he really wants to beat.


What's wrong with asking to be allowed passed? He isn't allowed to overtake so surely he has to at least ask. His only other choice is just to accept he's beaten.

He asked a second time after the team informed him of what Ocon was doing, looking after the tyres for a 1 stop strategy, who ran out of tyres, it wasn't Ocon.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:01 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well all I saw was the way he went out of the podium room on Channel 4. At the time, they didn't show anything else because of adverts. Now I am hearing the other things he's saying, I'm starting to think he's being unreasonable. And people comparing it to other drivers seem to be missing something. A lot that they are comparing are drivers going quite wide on the outside of a corner. Verstappen cut a huge amount of the corner off on the inside which surely is a much bigger advantage. To me it is clear why this and not any other drivers going off track got investigated and got given a penalty. Even the guys on Channel 4 were unsure why Bottas and Ricciardo were under investigation. They thought it was great racing by both.


cut the corner by a huge amount?

That's what he did basically.


He cut the corner. I think "a huge amount" is an odd way to describe a cars width.

He couldn't cut it anymore without going onto the grass, he cut it as much as he could.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:08 pm 
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Verstappen33 wrote:
Four wheels of yes that is a penalty. Nobody is talking about that being wrong, it's the inconsistency of the FIA when giving these penalties.
...
but everybody can see that the FIA needs to be more clear about the rules and execute them as such.


OK, so first of all, with regards to this specific case, I don't think they need to be more clear about the rules, because they are very clear.

Enforcing said rules then. As far as I know or can recollect going offtrack gaining a lasting advantage (= place gained without handing it back) is pretty consequently followed up with either the swift demand of handing back the place, or a time penalty. I can remember Grosjean passing ? in Hungary a few years ago, on the outside, where he was pushed outside and thus left the track. The overtake wasn't allowed to stand. Vettel in Germany in, I think, 2012, same result.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:10 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
What's wrong with asking to be allowed passed? He isn't allowed to overtake so surely he has to at least ask. His only other choice is just to accept he's beaten.


You're right. The request itself isn't unusual. But there's ways to go about it... He came over as rather arrogant and bullish about it. Either way, saying you have pace to burn then a few laps later you have to let go because your tyres have had it, well... something with eggs and faces :)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:17 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
moby wrote:
Fiki wrote:
There was one good thing about the pass; seeing Kimi's expression when Max saw him, and Max's smile when he saw Kimi, because Max knew the pass wasn't valid.


I was impressed with the way Max handled it. He would not have been like that last year. He is only going to get better

Yea I was too. One thing I can respect about Verstappen that I never used to is his attitude. He is way better now at dealing with these things.

Neither him or his Father handled it well at all.

Well all I saw was the way he went out of the podium room on Channel 4. At the time, they didn't show anything else because of adverts. Now I am hearing the other things he's saying, I'm starting to think he's being unreasonable. And people comparing it to other drivers seem to be missing something. A lot that they are comparing are drivers going quite wide on the outside of a corner. Verstappen cut a huge amount of the corner off on the inside which surely is a much bigger advantage. To me it is clear why this and not any other drivers going off track got investigated and got given a penalty. Even the guys on Channel 4 were unsure why Bottas and Ricciardo were under investigation. They thought it was great racing by both.
Yes, I too only saw and heard how Max and Jos reacted afterwards.

When we saw the moment when Max saw Kimi, I felt he knew his pass might be disqualified, because he must have known he was off the track. The look in his eyes, and the dignified way in which he held himself when leaving, I felt was worthy of some respect.
But hearing the vocabulary he used in Dutch made for a very rude awakening on my part. I should add that I saw on YouTube how the F1 commentators on a Dutch channel, including Robert Doornbos, all thought the disqualification was nonsense and that it was hard but fair racing.

The person who interviewed Max in Dutch was as rude as Max himself. How can we expect young viewers to learn to respect the rules, when people being paid to race and those paid to commentate, don't take the trouble to know and defend the rules of their sport? And use respectable language doing so?

What I heard of Max and the interviewer comes mightily close to bringing the sport into disrepute. Something Vettel was correctly called out for by the FIA last year. I think it is time for the FIA to remind young Verstappen about the value of polite language. And invite a few others, such as Magnussen.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:21 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Pretty open-and-shut penalty, from my point of view. Max couldn't have made the pass without leaving the track, he wasn't forced off track, and he didn't return the position. How is that not a penalty, honestly?

Because it goes against the precedent set in 2016 where Verstappen can do whatever he wants and the rest of F1 has to laud him as the second coming of Christ.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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