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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:57 pm 
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I'm copying my rant from the race thread, because this is something that's been bothering me for a long time. Why is the track limit not respected?!

And when for some reason everyone is allowed to exceed them and qualify and even overtake by going off track, why is only one move punished?

This is mental.

First, this week, for some arbitrary reason, track limits are forgotten.

Drivers continue to make moves in the race by going off track.I saw Ricciardo, Bottas, Vettel, and Verstappen go off track either in the beginning, or the conclusion of overtaking moves.

Then they penalise Verstappen for breaking rules, which was allowed by them in the first place!

We've seen the drivers briefings, Charlie Whiting is just a useless piece of skit who panders to every driver, and cannot hold his own opinion, and treats the rules are arbitrary things, applied at whim.

Hamilton again took off his belts.

How hard is it to enforce rules?!

(Mod edit: Bad language removed. )

Okay, since the mods edited out the exact quote, I'll just say I agree with Vettel's rant about Charlie Whiting after Mexico 2016.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:07 pm 
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Running wide between turns 18 and 19 allowed.
Apparently, defending your position after being forced wide allowed (isn't this on a parallel with Grosjean being stiffed for passing Massa in Hungary a few years ago, when forced wide).
Cutting a corner to overtake not allowed. I can understand that.
The main issue is with not being clear on the rules in the first place - and sticking to them.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:07 pm 
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Did anyone else completed a pass outside the track limits and didn't get penalised at this race? I'll answer it for you, no.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:09 pm 
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IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
I'm copying my rant from the race thread, because this is something that's been bothering me for a long time. Why is the track limit not respected?!

And when for some reason everyone is allowed to exceed them and qualify and even overtake by going off track, why is only one move punished?

This is mental.

First, this week, for some arbitrary reason, track limits are forgotten.

Drivers continue to make moves in the race by going off track.I saw Ricciardo, Bottas, Vettel, and Verstappen go off track either in the beginning, or the conclusion of overtaking moves.

Then they penalise Verstappen for breaking rules, which was allowed by them in the first place!

We've seen the drivers briefings, Charlie Whiting is just a useless piece of skit who panders to every driver, and cannot hold his own opinion, and treats the rules are arbitrary things, applied at whim.

Hamilton again took off his belts.

How hard is it to enforce rules?!

(Mod edit: Bad language removed. )

Okay, since the mods edited out the exact quote, I'll just say I agree with Vettel's rant about Charlie Whiting after Mexico 2016.


I don’t think they are inept, they’re not stupid (we can all probably agree on that!?), they know exactly what they’re doing – they are just like politicians manipulating things in their favour (it’s just that us fans don’t necessarily know, or agree with, the real agenda) !


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:11 pm 
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LMAO MV was so proud and excited to talk to Vettel. Then looks back to see Kimi is there too to got to the podium :lol: I am glad he got penalty. He also hit Bottas and threw him out of track but then he was smart enough to back off for a sec and then overtake him again. Obviously we all do that in video games to AI drivers but clearly is not acceptable in real racing

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Last edited by Mercedes-Benz on Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:11 pm 
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guardiangr wrote:
Did anyone else completed a pass outside the track limits and didn't get penalised at this race? I'll answer it for you, no.


I saw Sebastian overtake someone and go all 4 wheels off the track at the exit.

Now, if there was a concrete wall there, he wouldn't have run off. Would he then have been able to carry so much speed into the corner as to make the overtake? No.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:18 pm 
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IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
Did anyone else completed a pass outside the track limits and didn't get penalised at this race? I'll answer it for you, no.


I saw Sebastian overtake someone and go all 4 wheels off the track at the exit.

Now, if there was a concrete wall there, he wouldn't have run off. Would he then have been able to carry so much speed into the corner as to make the overtake? No.


Please elaborate where that was.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:20 pm 
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The drivers will always drive everywhere they can drive. Just build the tracks accordingly!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:21 pm 
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guardiangr wrote:
Did anyone else completed a pass outside the track limits and didn't get penalised at this race? I'll answer it for you, no.


I can't answer that, because I'm pretty sure that I didn't witness all overtakes of the race. Kudos to you, that you managed to do that.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:21 pm 
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Is it time for permanent elected stewards (elected by team bosses + equal number of votes from Fia F1 etc? Compelled to justify decisions to the concerned and to the team bosses?


Last edited by moby on Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:21 pm 
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guardiangr wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
Did anyone else completed a pass outside the track limits and didn't get penalised at this race? I'll answer it for you, no.


I saw Sebastian overtake someone and go all 4 wheels off the track at the exit.

Now, if there was a concrete wall there, he wouldn't have run off. Would he then have been able to carry so much speed into the corner as to make the overtake? No.


Please elaborate where that was.


It's 3am here. Will re-watch the race tomorrow and let you know. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:23 pm 
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IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
Did anyone else completed a pass outside the track limits and didn't get penalised at this race? I'll answer it for you, no.


I saw Sebastian overtake someone and go all 4 wheels off the track at the exit.

Now, if there was a concrete wall there, he wouldn't have run off. Would he then have been able to carry so much speed into the corner as to make the overtake? No.


You can say the same for Max! Will he attempt the pass if there was a wall to the inside? You are not being objective because you are a fan of one and not a fan of the other.

Track limits on exits where all of them do the same (maybe agreed in the drivers meeting) at some corners is not as bad as forcing a driver to alter his line while the passing driver has all 4 wheels outside track limits, that is a slam dunk penalty, shut case

Kimi did not opened the door, he defended correctly, Max is completely at fault here.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:25 pm 
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PRFAN wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
Did anyone else completed a pass outside the track limits and didn't get penalised at this race? I'll answer it for you, no.


I saw Sebastian overtake someone and go all 4 wheels off the track at the exit.

Now, if there was a concrete wall there, he wouldn't have run off. Would he then have been able to carry so much speed into the corner as to make the overtake? No.


You can say the same for Max! Will he attempt the pass if there was a wall to the inside? You are not being objective because you are a fan of one and not a fan of the other.

Track limits on exits were all of them do the same (maybe agreed in the drivers meeting) at some corners is not as bad as forcing a driver to alter his line while the passing driver has all 4 wheels outside track limits, that is a slam dunk penalty, shut case

Kimi did not opened the door, he defended correctly, Max is completely at fault here.


Haha, I'm a fan of Vettel, I'm a fan of Verstappen. I'm also a fan of driving ON the track.

What Vettel did was not right.

What Verstappen did was not right.

Drivers exceeding track limits was not right.

But only one of these things was selectively penalised. That is what bothers me.

I don't know why you have to suspect that everything is motivated by driver preferences.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:26 pm 
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A thin strip of grass or gravel (like the parabolica) around these corners will help fix the issue.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:31 pm 
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This was an extremely easy decision to make - an overtake made with all 4 wheels off the track. Clear as daylight.

While we would all love some consistency, VER didn't really have a case here.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:32 pm 
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guardiangr wrote:
Did anyone else completed a pass outside the track limits and didn't get penalised at this race? I'll answer it for you, no.

Bottas arguably. Would need to see the onboard to pass proper judgement, but driving off the track at turn 1 vs Ricciardo on lap 2 certainly helped him maintain his position.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:36 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
The drivers will always drive everywhere they can drive. Just build the tracks accordingly!

Exactly my thoughts.

People should be questioning why on earth there is tarmac on the inside of the corner anyway. What purpose does it serve???


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:37 pm 
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Following my earlier post; the stewards DO KNOW other drivers made passes in EXACTLY the same circumstances. You must ask yourself; what does that say about our sport?

In my view, when things get manipulated it is not worth fairy cakes!

F1 was little better than pro-wrestling today, but I guess that is where things are going! Real and knowledgeable fans like us might as well give it a wide berth as we’re really not so important anymore!

If you want to see a ‘proper’ race then F1 is likely not the place to look anymore!!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:46 pm 
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In my view, it is not the decision that is wrong, it was not, it was correct. The 'problem' is the few hundred other events that were ignored.
If there is a rule, there is a rule all the time. If the rule is not enforced, it should not be enforced at any time, or at least without prior warning of a change of interpretation.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:50 pm 
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moby wrote:
Is it time for permanent elected stewards (elected by team bosses + equal number of votes from Fia F1 etc? Compelled to justify decisions to the concerned and to the team bosses?


We touched on this at the beginning of the season. This, or something similar doesn't happen because the FIA can't afford it. Yes, read it again, they can't afford it.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:51 pm 
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IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
Did anyone else completed a pass outside the track limits and didn't get penalised at this race? I'll answer it for you, no.


I saw Sebastian overtake someone and go all 4 wheels off the track at the exit.

Now, if there was a concrete wall there, he wouldn't have run off. Would he then have been able to carry so much speed into the corner as to make the overtake? No.


You can say the same for Max! Will he attempt the pass if there was a wall to the inside? You are not being objective because you are a fan of one and not a fan of the other.

Track limits on exits were all of them do the same (maybe agreed in the drivers meeting) at some corners is not as bad as forcing a driver to alter his line while the passing driver has all 4 wheels outside track limits, that is a slam dunk penalty, shut case

Kimi did not opened the door, he defended correctly, Max is completely at fault here.


Haha, I'm a fan of Vettel, I'm a fan of Verstappen. I'm also a fan of driving ON the track.

What Vettel did was not right.

What Verstappen did was not right.

Drivers exceeding track limits was not right.

But only one of these things was selectively penalised. That is what bothers me.

I don't know why you have to suspect that everything is motivated by driver preferences.



In another thread you wrote:

Ah, Raikkonen back to being Raikkonen :lol , and you cheered Max on! Clearly you have some bias (we all have). Maybe, just maybe you jumped in joy when Max pulled the pass and then was completly deflated when the penalty was given

And you are being objective? Ujum!! ;)

As a result you felt the need to make a thread, copy yourself to vent and find people that agree with you and decided to disguise it as "track limits" when you are clearly mad because Max was stripped of the 3rd place.

Yep, just call it what it is, you are frustrated with the fact that Max was penalised. And rightly so. I think the "old man" showed Max how the defend fairly.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:53 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
moby wrote:
Is it time for permanent elected stewards (elected by team bosses + equal number of votes from Fia F1 etc? Compelled to justify decisions to the concerned and to the team bosses?


We touched on this at the beginning of the season. This, or something similar doesn't happen because the FIA can't afford it. Yes, read it again, they can't afford it.


What? these guys do it voluntary, no pay? Nah surely


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:58 pm 
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cutting the corner on the inside is different to running wide imo because you are shortening the track not lengthening it. dont know if the regs define any difference there. if the stewards decide that running wide is enough of an advantage they do warn or penalise but they obviously thought running wide before the last turn is not an advantage.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:02 pm 
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.

I assume that when, at a corner, there is a red line, some red painted concrete and another white line, the outer white line is the edge of the track ?

.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:03 pm 
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moby wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
moby wrote:
Is it time for permanent elected stewards (elected by team bosses + equal number of votes from Fia F1 etc? Compelled to justify decisions to the concerned and to the team bosses?


We touched on this at the beginning of the season. This, or something similar doesn't happen because the FIA can't afford it. Yes, read it again, they can't afford it.


What? these guys do it voluntary, no pay? Nah surely


I'll try and find it but the proposal was that there would be consistency of personnel at each race but cost ruled it out.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:07 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
Did anyone else completed a pass outside the track limits and didn't get penalised at this race? I'll answer it for you, no.

Bottas arguably. Would need to see the onboard to pass proper judgement, but driving off the track at turn 1 vs Ricciardo on lap 2 certainly helped him maintain his position.

Bottas was pushed outside the track limits by Ric, if anything Dan should've get a penalty for forcing a driver off the track.

Max had plenty of room and yet he decided to straight out a corner off the track.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:29 pm 
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guardiangr wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
Did anyone else completed a pass outside the track limits and didn't get penalised at this race? I'll answer it for you, no.

Bottas arguably. Would need to see the onboard to pass proper judgement, but driving off the track at turn 1 vs Ricciardo on lap 2 certainly helped him maintain his position.

Bottas was pushed outside the track limits by Ric, if anything Dan should've get a penalty for forcing a driver off the track.

Max had plenty of room and yet he decided to straight out a corner off the track.


But Bottas did pass Ricciardo off track? So you agree it's not always black and white?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:40 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
Did anyone else completed a pass outside the track limits and didn't get penalised at this race? I'll answer it for you, no.

Bottas arguably. Would need to see the onboard to pass proper judgement, but driving off the track at turn 1 vs Ricciardo on lap 2 certainly helped him maintain his position.

Bottas was pushed outside the track limits by Ric, if anything Dan should've get a penalty for forcing a driver off the track.

Max had plenty of room and yet he decided to straight out a corner off the track.


But Bottas did pass Ricciardo off track? So you agree it's not always black and white?

No they were head to head.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:49 pm 
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guardiangr wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
Did anyone else completed a pass outside the track limits and didn't get penalised at this race? I'll answer it for you, no.

Bottas arguably. Would need to see the onboard to pass proper judgement, but driving off the track at turn 1 vs Ricciardo on lap 2 certainly helped him maintain his position.

Bottas was pushed outside the track limits by Ric, if anything Dan should've get a penalty for forcing a driver off the track.

Max had plenty of room and yet he decided to straight out a corner off the track.


But Bottas did pass Ricciardo off track? So you agree it's not always black and white?

No they were head to head.


Ricciardo was ahead when both still on track.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:49 pm 
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There is also this -

https://twitter.com/Cla_Cottingham/stat ... 4460793856


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:56 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:


Also check Sainz on Perez in the replies there.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:02 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
moby wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
moby wrote:
Is it time for permanent elected stewards (elected by team bosses + equal number of votes from Fia F1 etc? Compelled to justify decisions to the concerned and to the team bosses?


We touched on this at the beginning of the season. This, or something similar doesn't happen because the FIA can't afford it. Yes, read it again, they can't afford it.


What? these guys do it voluntary, no pay? Nah surely


I'll try and find it but the proposal was that there would be consistency of personnel at each race but cost ruled it out.


Oh I am not doubting it was claimed, but there are people there doing the job, and presumably paid at the moment.
They would not have to be 'just' stewards, but available during race week end to fulfil that role. If for instance a rota for each team to supply an official for one season in 4 etc. I do think 2 should be drivers, but 4 team personel and someone from the fia legal dept or one full time 'judge' who would sit over any internal problems and funded by 70% team 20% fia 10% drivers.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:56 am 
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Llotyhy wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:


Also check Sainz on Perez in the replies there.


That is clear cut lie. That is not Sainz on Perez, that is Sainz trying to take Ocon. He never made that pass by the way. You can clearly see that Perez is more than 7 second behind Sainz at that point in timing charts.

And clearly The original twitter post is also BS, Vettel was already ahead and just his line took him outside turn one. No choice as there were Hamilton and others on the outside when taking turn one. No advantage gained.

Clearly shown in one of the replies in the same thread : https://twitter.com/shripadk14/status/9 ... 4929236992

Frankly when penalty was announced, I was as puzzled and shocked as anyone. But after seeing replay of corner 17, I cant really complain about this.

I still found the penalty received by Sauber for incident with Kevin's Haas extremely harsh. More harsh than this.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:48 pm 
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Actually, the FIA was very efficient this sole time. Verstappen cut the inside to get around Raikkonen, and within 3 minutes the word had come down. That is the quickest decision I have ever seen in Formula One.

But as long as humans are allowed to weigh in on what is essentially a yes or no issue, politics,money, prestige, and other factors come into play. Does the technology exist so we can have a consistent and impartial system? Yes, by running sensor wires under the track limits.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:54 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Actually, the FIA was very efficient this sole time. Verstappen cut the inside to get around Raikkonen, and within 3 minutes the word had come down. That is the quickest decision I have ever seen in Formula One.

But as long as humans are allowed to weigh in on what is essentially a yes or no issue, politics,money, prestige, and other factors come into play. Does the technology exist so we can have a consistent and impartial system? Yes, by running sensor wires under the track limits.


BIB. This - there is no excuse for allowing cars to exceed track limits. A simple warning policy, three warnings and you are issued a 5-second penalty.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:54 pm 
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Probably a contentious point but Sainz did exceed the track limits once he passed Perez: with a shallow entry into Turn 18 he ran wide between 18 and 19. During qualifying this was let go and other drivers (if I recall correctly) ran wide there by themselves over the course of the race. Question is, did that have a say in allowing him to complete the overtaking manoeuvre?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:03 pm 
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The main culprits I saw were Bottas and Vettel. Bottas defended his position by going off the track out of turn 1 numerous times. He was basically allowed to use the runoff area to accelerate and then rejoin the track without giving up the position. I think he really set the tone early on with that type of desperate defending and the stewards never blew the whistle on him. This was a very intense race with a lot of battles and it was sort of like when you have a match and the referees just let everything go (and so the match becomes more physical and people are getting elbowed etc.). It was just very loose out there until it came time for Max to get in on it there at the end. Then all of a sudden it's not acceptable...

Vettel also had all 4 wheel off at the start after taking the lead so I think there are numerous cases of drivers being allowed to go off track while making a pass or defending their position. It was a little sloppy from the stewards and they need to start to crack down on track limits a little. It just makes it so that all drivers have to do it to compete when you let guys get away with it.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:33 am 
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Didn't Vettel have two wheels still on the curb.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:53 am 
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Davidbl wrote:
Didn't Vettel have two wheels still on the curb.

The kerb isn't the track. The white line is the end of the track; if all your wheels are over the white line, you're off the track.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:54 am 
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Well in that case then we all know that the first lap is treated differently to the rest of the race.


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