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Opinion on Max's overtake of Kimi
Poll ended at Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:31 pm
Completely legal - should not have received penalty 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Technically illegal - should not have received penalty 24%  24%  [ 23 ]
Mostly illegal - penalty was justified 12%  12%  [ 12 ]
Completely Illegal - penalty was justified 63%  63%  [ 61 ]
Total votes : 97
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:01 am 
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lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Does that mean he doesn't think the rules apply or is he using that part of his nationality to support Kimi?


https://twitter.com/nico_rosberg/status ... 7773573120


I think this is Nico's point.

Image

Max got alongside enough to earn space into the corner, Kimi (possibly completely unintentionally) did not leave the space required by the rules and chopped into the space. If Verstappen had kept it legal they likely would have banged wheels and Max come out on top.

Verstappen did break a rule, but so did Kimi. If Kimi had left the space the rules required, Verstappen would have performed a legal overtake.


Not sure if serious. But these images prove that this was a planned move :uhoh:

Divebomb the inside was his plan A else take a shortcut and complain later to steward that did it to avoid crashing into Kimi :thumbdown:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:59 am 
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lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Does that mean he doesn't think the rules apply or is he using that part of his nationality to support Kimi?


https://twitter.com/nico_rosberg/status ... 7773573120


I think this is Nico's point.

Image

Max got alongside enough to earn space into the corner, Kimi (possibly completely unintentionally) did not leave the space required by the rules and chopped into the space. If Verstappen had kept it legal they likely would have banged wheels and Max come out on top.

Verstappen did break a rule, but so did Kimi. If Kimi had left the space the rules required, Verstappen would have performed a legal overtake.

Kimi couldn't see Max by the time max made the move to the inside. He said he saw him in his mirror and thought he had Max covered going into the corner but once he's mid corner and Verstappen pulled further inside, the pitch of the Ferrari meant that there was no way Kimi could see him. Even still, as they approached the corner and initial apex, Kimi left more than a full car's width and was therefore not guilty of anything illegal. A driver's job is to take the most ideal line and as such, at some point a driver needs to pull in tighter to the apex, which is what Kimi was doing as he got past the first apex.

As well, given the crash that took both Ferrari's and Verstappen out a few races ago, it seems Verstappen was a bit more cautious than he'd normally be in such a close wheel-to-wheel exchange and pulled farther in than he usually would, so I'd venture to say Verstappen's penalty was his own fault alone, but regardless, to carry that kind of speed and pull the line tighter than Kimi was going through those corners was pretty spectacular.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:36 am 
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Blake wrote:
Not if he doesn't get that "significant portion" along side until after the other driver has established his line.

So you are suggesting that by the rules Kimi was obligated to let Max plow on thru with an uncontested line??? Whatever happened to a driver backing-off when the only option is to crash or break the rules? Or was it Kimi's responsibility to back-off... Max got away with a lot of that kind of cr@p last year... many of us wondered why. Lamo, now I am confused by your spirited defense of a move nearly feel was clear-cut outside the rules.

I've always thought the 'significant portion' bit of the rules has always been BS. I'm not a fan of any rule that isn't specific and be interpreted differently. Also, not directed at you blake, I thought the cars width rule was for the breaking zone and to be used whilst defending, it doesn't apply when the cars are actually in the corner.

But regardless of that, I have voted for clearly illegal. Kimi left plenty of space and Max must've known full well he was off track and had every opportunity to give the place back. It doesn't matter if he believes he was pushed wide or not, cutting corners during an overtake is a no, no. Even not during an overtake the stewards normally have a 3 strikes rule for cutting corners (just not going wide).

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:18 am 
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I'm surprised by this thread to be honest. When watching on TV I thought the forum will melt down, but it is crystal clear that MV cut the corner and he wasn't really crowded by KR, there was space.

So what are we discussing really?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:34 am 
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Seems to me the forum who are seeing this as a clear infraction of the rules is out of step with many who are sympathetic to Max Verstappen's plight.

There is criticism though of his reaction. FIA seem unhappy he labelled Gary Connelly (steward) an idiot and implying he has it in for MV.

http://en.f1i.com/news/283551-idiot-steward-max-referring.html


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:39 am 
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lamo wrote:
This move by Rosberg was deemed legal last year, he literally aborted coming back onto the track onto the tarmac and drove over the grass to re-take Verstappen.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4D9VNtzW4

That would be were Verstappen hit Rosberg's car and pushed him off the track in the first place which was his complaint about Bottas after he first forced Bottas off the track.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:39 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Seems to me the forum who are seeing this as a clear infraction of the rules is out of step with many who are sympathetic to Max Verstappen's plight.

There is criticism though of his reaction. FIA seem unhappy he labelled Gary Connelly (steward) an idiot and implying he has it in for MV.

http://en.f1i.com/news/283551-idiot-steward-max-referring.html


I see only one person that is sympathetic to Max's plight in the votes to be honest. And I'm surprised with that one vote as well. Is Nico a forum member? Anyone here who joined around Dec 2016?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:41 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Does that mean he doesn't think the rules apply or is he using that part of his nationality to support Kimi?


https://twitter.com/nico_rosberg/status ... 7773573120


I think this is Nico's point.

Image

Max got alongside enough to earn space into the corner, Kimi (possibly completely unintentionally) did not leave the space required by the rules and chopped into the space. If Verstappen had kept it legal they likely would have banged wheels and Max come out on top.

Verstappen did break a rule, but so did Kimi. If Kimi had left the space the rules required, Verstappen would have performed a legal overtake.

Kimi couldn't see Max by the time max made the move to the inside. He said he saw him in his mirror and thought he had Max covered going into the corner but once he's mid corner and Verstappen pulled further inside, the pitch of the Ferrari meant that there was no way Kimi could see him. Even still, as they approached the corner and initial apex, Kimi left more than a full car's width and was therefore not guilty of anything illegal. A driver's job is to take the most ideal line and as such, at some point a driver needs to pull in tighter to the apex, which is what Kimi was doing as he got past the first apex.

As well, given the crash that took both Ferrari's and Verstappen out a few races ago, it seems Verstappen was a bit more cautious than he'd normally be in such a close wheel-to-wheel exchange and pulled farther in than he usually would, so I'd venture to say Verstappen's penalty was his own fault alone, but regardless, to carry that kind of speed and pull the line tighter than Kimi was going through those corners was pretty spectacular.

Not really, Kimi clearly was going quite slow.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:45 am 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Does that mean he doesn't think the rules apply or is he using that part of his nationality to support Kimi?


https://twitter.com/nico_rosberg/status ... 7773573120


I think this is Nico's point.

Image

Max got alongside enough to earn space into the corner, Kimi (possibly completely unintentionally) did not leave the space required by the rules and chopped into the space. If Verstappen had kept it legal they likely would have banged wheels and Max come out on top.

Verstappen did break a rule, but so did Kimi. If Kimi had left the space the rules required, Verstappen would have performed a legal overtake.

Kimi couldn't see Max by the time max made the move to the inside. He said he saw him in his mirror and thought he had Max covered going into the corner but once he's mid corner and Verstappen pulled further inside, the pitch of the Ferrari meant that there was no way Kimi could see him. Even still, as they approached the corner and initial apex, Kimi left more than a full car's width and was therefore not guilty of anything illegal. A driver's job is to take the most ideal line and as such, at some point a driver needs to pull in tighter to the apex, which is what Kimi was doing as he got past the first apex.

As well, given the crash that took both Ferrari's and Verstappen out a few races ago, it seems Verstappen was a bit more cautious than he'd normally be in such a close wheel-to-wheel exchange and pulled farther in than he usually would, so I'd venture to say Verstappen's penalty was his own fault alone, but regardless, to carry that kind of speed and pull the line tighter than Kimi was going through those corners was pretty spectacular.

Not really, Kimi clearly was going quite slow.


Apparently Kimi was in severe fuel saving mode and struggling to finish the race.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:46 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Seems to me the forum who are seeing this as a clear infraction of the rules is out of step with many who are sympathetic to Max Verstappen's plight.

There is criticism though of his reaction. FIA seem unhappy he labelled Gary Connelly (steward) an idiot and implying he has it in for MV.

http://en.f1i.com/news/283551-idiot-steward-max-referring.html

I was thinking about starting a thread about this, by targeting an official the Verstappen's have brought the sport into disrepute, I wonder what kind of abuse the steward might be receiving from Verstappen's fanatical fans, they already managed to crash the FIA server.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:47 am 
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pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
This move by Rosberg was deemed legal last year, he literally aborted coming back onto the track onto the tarmac and drove over the grass to re-take Verstappen.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4D9VNtzW4

That would be were Verstappen hit Rosberg's car and pushed him off the track in the first place which was his complaint about Bottas after he first forced Bottas off the track.



Regardless he deliberately cut more of the track in order to regain position. It was wrong.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:48 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Kimi couldn't see Max by the time max made the move to the inside. He said he saw him in his mirror and thought he had Max covered going into the corner but once he's mid corner and Verstappen pulled further inside, the pitch of the Ferrari meant that there was no way Kimi could see him. Even still, as they approached the corner and initial apex, Kimi left more than a full car's width and was therefore not guilty of anything illegal. A driver's job is to take the most ideal line and as such, at some point a driver needs to pull in tighter to the apex, which is what Kimi was doing as he got past the first apex.

As well, given the crash that took both Ferrari's and Verstappen out a few races ago, it seems Verstappen was a bit more cautious than he'd normally be in such a close wheel-to-wheel exchange and pulled farther in than he usually would, so I'd venture to say Verstappen's penalty was his own fault alone, but regardless, to carry that kind of speed and pull the line tighter than Kimi was going through those corners was pretty spectacular.

Not really, Kimi clearly was going quite slow.


Apparently Kimi was in severe fuel saving mode and struggling to finish the race.

Yep so this stunning overtaking move of outstanding bravery is somewhat overplayed.

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Last edited by pokerman on Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:53 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
This move by Rosberg was deemed legal last year, he literally aborted coming back onto the track onto the tarmac and drove over the grass to re-take Verstappen.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4D9VNtzW4

That would be were Verstappen hit Rosberg's car and pushed him off the track in the first place which was his complaint about Bottas after he first forced Bottas off the track.



Regardless he deliberately cut more of the track in order to regain position. It was wrong.

They obviously didn't penalise Rosberg because of what Verstappen did in the first place, correct stewarding would be that Verstappen gains the place but then gets penalised but how often does this happen especially at the start of the race, Rosberg knows this as well.

I think it's quite ingenious the way that Verstappen pushes drivers off the track then complains that the driver regained the position whilst still being off the track.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:58 am 
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pokerman wrote:
I think it's quite ingenious the way that Verstappen pushes drivers off the track then complains that the driver regained the position whilst still being off the track.


It's become accepted to hang others out to dry if they're on the outside and behind, though, so he's right to complain that said driver just powers through and comes out ahead.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:18 pm 
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Wow, looks like a lot of people here hold a grudge against Max and are of course saying they aren't.
Surprises me that some so called fans here on the forum of the sport are so bitter. Must be real fun to watch an F1 race with that mentality.

Mercedes-Benz member talking about this being a thought of plan from Max. Really? You think he has this way of thinking you describe here? Racing drivers work on a different level and when driving cars with such speed it's different than driving your car on the road.

No one here has a problem with the penalty because four wheels left the track. It's that others didn't get penalties and that indeed Max needed to move out of the way for Kimi so thst might be another say to look at this overtake.

Are ex F1 drivers stupid when they say what they think about this overtake? When Andretti speaks or Webber or Rosberg or Lauda, they are all in the wrong from what I can see here. I forgot that the people who have real F1 experience are members of this forum and not those mentioned names...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:21 pm 
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I am pleased to see the forum supporting the penalty against Verstappen. The poll result is a landslide in favor of the penalty.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:35 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think it's quite ingenious the way that Verstappen pushes drivers off the track then complains that the driver regained the position whilst still being off the track.


It's become accepted to hang others out to dry if they're on the outside and behind, though, so he's right to complain that said driver just powers through and comes out ahead.

The drivers are not behind, in the instance with Rosberg, Verstappen was behind when he hit him, Verstappen's wheels were locked up and he ran into Rosberg.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:37 pm 
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Verstappen33 wrote:
Wow, looks like a lot of people here hold a grudge against Max and are of course saying they aren't.
Surprises me that some so called fans here on the forum of the sport are so bitter. Must be real fun to watch an F1 race with that mentality.

Mercedes-Benz member talking about this being a thought of plan from Max. Really? You think he has this way of thinking you describe here? Racing drivers work on a different level and when driving cars with such speed it's different than driving your car on the road.

No one here has a problem with the penalty because four wheels left the track. It's that others didn't get penalties and that indeed Max needed to move out of the way for Kimi so thst might be another say to look at this overtake.

Are ex F1 drivers stupid when they say what they think about this overtake? When Andretti speaks or Webber or Rosberg or Lauda, they are all in the wrong from what I can see here. I forgot that the people who have real F1 experience are members of this forum and not those mentioned names...

The reaction against Verstappen is the abuse of the steward by both himself and his Father.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
This move by Rosberg was deemed legal last year, he literally aborted coming back onto the track onto the tarmac and drove over the grass to re-take Verstappen.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4D9VNtzW4

That would be were Verstappen hit Rosberg's car and pushed him off the track in the first place which was his complaint about Bottas after he first forced Bottas off the track.



Regardless he deliberately cut more of the track in order to regain position. It was wrong.

They obviously didn't penalise Rosberg because of what Verstappen did in the first place, correct stewarding would be that Verstappen gains the place but then gets penalised but how often does this happen especially at the start of the race, Rosberg knows this as well.

I think it's quite ingenious the way that Verstappen pushes drivers off the track then complains that the driver regained the position whilst still being off the track.


Hardly a Verstappen only issue is it? Just look at Ricciardo and Bottas on Sunday. The only difference is it generates a lot more noise when Verstappen does it.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:47 pm 
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Verstappen33 wrote:
Wow, looks like a lot of people here hold a grudge against Max and are of course saying they aren't.
Surprises me that some so called fans here on the forum of the sport are so bitter. Must be real fun to watch an F1 race with that mentality.

Mercedes-Benz member talking about this being a thought of plan from Max. Really? You think he has this way of thinking you describe here? Racing drivers work on a different level and when driving cars with such speed it's different than driving your car on the road.

No one here has a problem with the penalty because four wheels left the track. It's that others didn't get penalties and that indeed Max needed to move out of the way for Kimi so thst might be another say to look at this overtake.

Are ex F1 drivers stupid when they say what they think about this overtake? When Andretti speaks or Webber or Rosberg or Lauda, they are all in the wrong from what I can see here. I forgot that the people who have real F1 experience are members of this forum and not those mentioned names...

Maybe you should also look at the Quali thread and the one regarding FIA unable to enforce rules for exceeding track limits. Both of which were up before the Max/Kimi incident.

Judging by your forum name, it may be that your view of the situation is more biased than others?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:54 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:
Wow, looks like a lot of people here hold a grudge against Max and are of course saying they aren't.
Surprises me that some so called fans here on the forum of the sport are so bitter. Must be real fun to watch an F1 race with that mentality.

Mercedes-Benz member talking about this being a thought of plan from Max. Really? You think he has this way of thinking you describe here? Racing drivers work on a different level and when driving cars with such speed it's different than driving your car on the road.

No one here has a problem with the penalty because four wheels left the track. It's that others didn't get penalties and that indeed Max needed to move out of the way for Kimi so thst might be another say to look at this overtake.

Are ex F1 drivers stupid when they say what they think about this overtake? When Andretti speaks or Webber or Rosberg or Lauda, they are all in the wrong from what I can see here. I forgot that the people who have real F1 experience are members of this forum and not those mentioned names...

The reaction against Verstappen is the abuse of the steward by both himself and his Father.


Verstappen's comments were disgraceful. He is shouting at a steward that does his job as he should. Good old shouting to make himself look like he is being the one who's being wronged.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:56 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
This move by Rosberg was deemed legal last year, he literally aborted coming back onto the track onto the tarmac and drove over the grass to re-take Verstappen.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4D9VNtzW4

That would be were Verstappen hit Rosberg's car and pushed him off the track in the first place which was his complaint about Bottas after he first forced Bottas off the track.



Regardless he deliberately cut more of the track in order to regain position. It was wrong.

They obviously didn't penalise Rosberg because of what Verstappen did in the first place, correct stewarding would be that Verstappen gains the place but then gets penalised but how often does this happen especially at the start of the race, Rosberg knows this as well.

I think it's quite ingenious the way that Verstappen pushes drivers off the track then complains that the driver regained the position whilst still being off the track.


Hardly a Verstappen only issue is it? Just look at Ricciardo and Bottas on Sunday. The only difference is it generates a lot more noise when Verstappen does it.

Look at the race thread, I said at the time that Ricciardo tried to make an illegal pass.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:56 pm 
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minchy wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:
Wow, looks like a lot of people here hold a grudge against Max and are of course saying they aren't.
Surprises me that some so called fans here on the forum of the sport are so bitter. Must be real fun to watch an F1 race with that mentality.

Mercedes-Benz member talking about this being a thought of plan from Max. Really? You think he has this way of thinking you describe here? Racing drivers work on a different level and when driving cars with such speed it's different than driving your car on the road.

No one here has a problem with the penalty because four wheels left the track. It's that others didn't get penalties and that indeed Max needed to move out of the way for Kimi so thst might be another say to look at this overtake.

Are ex F1 drivers stupid when they say what they think about this overtake? When Andretti speaks or Webber or Rosberg or Lauda, they are all in the wrong from what I can see here. I forgot that the people who have real F1 experience are members of this forum and not those mentioned names...

Maybe you should also look at the Quali thread and the one regarding FIA unable to enforce rules for exceeding track limits. Both of which were up before the Max/Kimi incident.

Judging by your forum name, it may be that your view of the situation is more biased than others?


Totally unbiased view. Especially where it says that Max needed to move out of the way for Kimi.........


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:57 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think it's quite ingenious the way that Verstappen pushes drivers off the track then complains that the driver regained the position whilst still being off the track.


It's become accepted to hang others out to dry if they're on the outside and behind, though, so he's right to complain that said driver just powers through and comes out ahead.

The drivers are not behind, in the instance with Rosberg, Verstappen was behind when he hit him, Verstappen's wheels were locked up and he ran into Rosberg.


I'm just talking about Verstappen vs Bottas, not previous cases. Wasn't Verstappen ahead of Bottas when he ran him out this weekend?

edit: just looked at it, yes he was.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:58 pm 
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Verstappen33 wrote:
Wow, looks like a lot of people here hold a grudge against Max and are of course saying they aren't.
Surprises me that some so called fans here on the forum of the sport are so bitter. Must be real fun to watch an F1 race with that mentality.

Mercedes-Benz member talking about this being a thought of plan from Max. Really? You think he has this way of thinking you describe here? Racing drivers work on a different level and when driving cars with such speed it's different than driving your car on the road.

No one here has a problem with the penalty because four wheels left the track. It's that others didn't get penalties and that indeed Max needed to move out of the way for Kimi so thst might be another say to look at this overtake.

Are ex F1 drivers stupid when they say what they think about this overtake? When Andretti speaks or Webber or Rosberg or Lauda, they are all in the wrong from what I can see here. I forgot that the people who have real F1 experience are members of this forum and not those mentioned names...


So in your eyes it's ok to cut corners, have your entire car outside of the track limits and overtake people?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:01 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think it's quite ingenious the way that Verstappen pushes drivers off the track then complains that the driver regained the position whilst still being off the track.


It's become accepted to hang others out to dry if they're on the outside and behind, though, so he's right to complain that said driver just powers through and comes out ahead.

The drivers are not behind, in the instance with Rosberg, Verstappen was behind when he hit him, Verstappen's wheels were locked up and he ran into Rosberg.


I'm just talking about Verstappen vs Bottas, not previous cases. Wasn't Verstappen ahead of Bottas when he ran him out this weekend?

edit: just looked at it, yes he was.

Maybe briefly after he had forced Bottas off the track?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:07 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:

It's become accepted to hang others out to dry if they're on the outside and behind, though, so he's right to complain that said driver just powers through and comes out ahead.

The drivers are not behind, in the instance with Rosberg, Verstappen was behind when he hit him, Verstappen's wheels were locked up and he ran into Rosberg.


I'm just talking about Verstappen vs Bottas, not previous cases. Wasn't Verstappen ahead of Bottas when he ran him out this weekend?

edit: just looked at it, yes he was.

Maybe briefly after he had forced Bottas off the track?


No, he was ahead at the apex and on corner exit, by half a car.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:15 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:
Wow, looks like a lot of people here hold a grudge against Max and are of course saying they aren't.
Surprises me that some so called fans here on the forum of the sport are so bitter. Must be real fun to watch an F1 race with that mentality.

Mercedes-Benz member talking about this being a thought of plan from Max. Really? You think he has this way of thinking you describe here? Racing drivers work on a different level and when driving cars with such speed it's different than driving your car on the road.

No one here has a problem with the penalty because four wheels left the track. It's that others didn't get penalties and that indeed Max needed to move out of the way for Kimi so thst might be another say to look at this overtake.

Are ex F1 drivers stupid when they say what they think about this overtake? When Andretti speaks or Webber or Rosberg or Lauda, they are all in the wrong from what I can see here. I forgot that the people who have real F1 experience are members of this forum and not those mentioned names...

The reaction against Verstappen is the abuse of the steward by both himself and his Father.


Agree with this, you do feel that his father is feeding into this strongly!

Posting this on Twitter from a senior F1 driver is bound to cause problems for Max.



http://en.f1i.com/news/283483-jos-verstappen-lashes-fia-social-media.html


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:28 pm 
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To all who took the time to reply, thank you for your time to do this.

I can see why I would be biased with that username of course. However, I feel like we are talking about different things here.

Your question rivf1 I understand and no, for me this is not ok. But that isn't the case here anymore. The rules are clear but they are not being used for all the drivers equally which is the part a lot of people have a problem with.

I hear now members have a problem with his attitude and reaction after the race, including the reaction from his father Jos. I understand this could have been better, but I als understand the situation from their point of view.

It's not needed to call names to anyone and maybe they should not do the interviews right after the race. But again, people want to see honest reactions instead of the politically correct answers we've had for years. It's not right but it's emotion. I do agree that the sport can do itself more harm by following the rules but not giving everybody the same penalties. The rules are clear, but the way they judge is hardly clear.

If they punish this behavior they should start to do so first thing on Friday when Practice starts. Then it's clear for everyone and not suddenly in the last lap of the race.

I would feel the same for Kimi if he made that pass Max did and got that penalty. It's not where a driver is from but what he can show on track that keeps me interested in the sport. Every driver should be equal and if they start to give a penalty give it to everyone who makes the same mistake instead of one driver in particular.

That to the fan is the most important part, not the penalty in itself.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:39 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:

It's become accepted to hang others out to dry if they're on the outside and behind, though, so he's right to complain that said driver just powers through and comes out ahead.

The drivers are not behind, in the instance with Rosberg, Verstappen was behind when he hit him, Verstappen's wheels were locked up and he ran into Rosberg.


I'm just talking about Verstappen vs Bottas, not previous cases. Wasn't Verstappen ahead of Bottas when he ran him out this weekend?

edit: just looked at it, yes he was.

Maybe briefly after he had forced Bottas off the track?


No, he was ahead at the apex and on corner exit, by half a car.

They were side by side just before they hit the apex with Verstappen's tighter line and greater speed getting Verstappen slightly in front right on the apex itself, then Verstappen's trajectory ran Bottas off the track, Bottas had no option but to go off the track.

No doubt then that Verstappen had won the corner fairly but the argument of why wasn't Bottas penalised is still weak because Verstappen passed him 2 corners later so that became mute.

This is a bit like the Ricciardo/Bottas incident that was reviewed by the stewards, Ricciardo went off track to get in front of Bottas then Bottas went off track to gain the position back, the issue resolved itself and no further action was taken.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:42 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:
Wow, looks like a lot of people here hold a grudge against Max and are of course saying they aren't.
Surprises me that some so called fans here on the forum of the sport are so bitter. Must be real fun to watch an F1 race with that mentality.

Mercedes-Benz member talking about this being a thought of plan from Max. Really? You think he has this way of thinking you describe here? Racing drivers work on a different level and when driving cars with such speed it's different than driving your car on the road.

No one here has a problem with the penalty because four wheels left the track. It's that others didn't get penalties and that indeed Max needed to move out of the way for Kimi so thst might be another say to look at this overtake.

Are ex F1 drivers stupid when they say what they think about this overtake? When Andretti speaks or Webber or Rosberg or Lauda, they are all in the wrong from what I can see here. I forgot that the people who have real F1 experience are members of this forum and not those mentioned names...

The reaction against Verstappen is the abuse of the steward by both himself and his Father.


Agree with this, you do feel that his father is feeding into this strongly!

Posting this on Twitter from a senior F1 driver is bound to cause problems for Max.



http://en.f1i.com/news/283483-jos-verstappen-lashes-fia-social-media.html

Not a good future job interview for Ferrari?

Is this all that Jos said I heard he had been overly abusive so not that bad really.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:48 pm 
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Credit to you, at least you are not blindly defending the driver you support ignoring the facts in the process. I do have sympathy for the MV camp in that there is very clearly an issue with where and when drivers are permitted to cross lines without penalty. The FIA must do something, but somehow I suspect they won't.

The reaction and abuse was and is wrong, you do wonder what he would say if he had seen the images we have, rather than reacting immediately after the race.

But then again he could always apologise, that would be a start.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Verstappen33 wrote:
To all who took the time to reply, thank you for your time to do this.

I can see why I would be biased with that username of course. However, I feel like we are talking about different things here.

Your question rivf1 I understand and no, for me this is not ok. But that isn't the case here anymore. The rules are clear but they are not being used for all the drivers equally which is the part a lot of people have a problem with.

I hear now members have a problem with his attitude and reaction after the race, including the reaction from his father Jos. I understand this could have been better, but I als understand the situation from their point of view.

It's not needed to call names to anyone and maybe they should not do the interviews right after the race. But again, people want to see honest reactions instead of the politically correct answers we've had for years. It's not right but it's emotion. I do agree that the sport can do itself more harm by following the rules but not giving everybody the same penalties. The rules are clear, but the way they judge is hardly clear.

If they punish this behavior they should start to do so first thing on Friday when Practice starts. Then it's clear for everyone and not suddenly in the last lap of the race.

I would feel the same for Kimi if he made that pass Max did and got that penalty. It's not where a driver is from but what he can show on track that keeps me interested in the sport. Every driver should be equal and if they start to give a penalty give it to everyone who makes the same mistake instead of one driver in particular.

That to the fan is the most important part, not the penalty in itself.


I think there's a difference. Some corners are somewhat acceptable to be taken wide. I remember Hamilton talking about this, regarding some corners in Silverstone for example, I can try and find the quotes later if you want. Sometimes the track's layout means that some corners can be taken flat out and it throws the car slightly outside the track limits in the exit. Not many people are penalised for these.

This is not the case in this instance however and I will admit that am not sure if there are corners like these in Austin (corners that are "acceptable" to cut). I'd understand Verstappen's wrath if he was the only driver to get penalised when everyone else did the same in the same corner, but this isn't the case. He is the only one who cut this specific corner and actually overtook someone, which means that he gained an advantage. When he actually had space to prevent this from happening. As simple as that.

As for the tweets of Verstappen Sr. about Ferrari International Assistance, he should have known better. Max has an excuse; Jos is not 19 anymore...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:17 pm 
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think it's quite ingenious the way that Verstappen pushes drivers off the track then complains that the driver regained the position whilst still being off the track.


It's become accepted to hang others out to dry if they're on the outside and behind, though, so he's right to complain that said driver just powers through and comes out ahead.

The drivers are not behind, in the instance with Rosberg, Verstappen was behind when he hit him, Verstappen's wheels were locked up and he ran into Rosberg.


I'm just talking about Verstappen vs Bottas, not previous cases. Wasn't Verstappen ahead of Bottas when he ran him out this weekend?

edit: just looked at it, yes he was.

Maybe briefly after he had forced Bottas off the track?


Yes, so in Mexico 2016 we had Rosberg "illegally" overtake Verstappen by going completely off road because Verstappen had just moments before broken a rule himself. The stewards didn't react because both broke rules but for me, one was a racing attempt and the other was quite a blatant cheat.

The same for Bottas-Ricciardo in USA, Bottas used the off road to re-overtake Ricciardo. Again this has a mitigating circumstance because Ricciardo forced him out there.

So you can overtake off road if there are mitigating circumstnaces. So it all comes down to the strength of the mitigating circumstances. Max cut the track because Raikkonen did not leave him racing room and if Raikkonen had he would have performed a legal pass. The alternative would have been for Max to keep it legal and them make contact with one another which would have been Raikkonens fault and with Raikkonen being on the outside, likely he would be the one to come out of that contact worst. Verstappen earned the right to attempt to overtake by getting enough of his car alongside - the same as Hamilton in Spain 2016 but Verstappen had significantly more of his car alongside.

The problem with this decision is, the FIA had 3-4 minutes to decide on it, when they needed 15-20 minutes to go through it all. If this was for a none podium place they would have spent 20-30 minutes going over it from every angle and issued the decision way after the race end. The FIA however do not like to change the podium ceremony after the race and rushed the decision.

We have seen in the past, mitigating circumstances apply to racing and we are told that from 2017 on wards the stewards will be more lenient than ever. It wouldn't have surprised me if he had got away with it.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:27 pm 
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lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:

It's become accepted to hang others out to dry if they're on the outside and behind, though, so he's right to complain that said driver just powers through and comes out ahead.

The drivers are not behind, in the instance with Rosberg, Verstappen was behind when he hit him, Verstappen's wheels were locked up and he ran into Rosberg.


I'm just talking about Verstappen vs Bottas, not previous cases. Wasn't Verstappen ahead of Bottas when he ran him out this weekend?

edit: just looked at it, yes he was.

Maybe briefly after he had forced Bottas off the track?


Yes, so in Mexico 2016 we had Rosberg "illegally" overtake Verstappen by going completely off road because Verstappen had just moments before broken a rule himself. The stewards didn't react because both broke rules but for me, one was a racing attempt and the other was quite a blatant cheat.

The same for Bottas-Ricciardo in USA, Bottas used the off road to re-overtake Ricciardo. Again this has a mitigating circumstance because Ricciardo forced him out there.

So you can overtake off road if there are mitigating circumstnaces. So it all comes down to the strength of the mitigating circumstances. Max cut the track because Raikkonen did not leave him racing room and if Raikkonen had he would have performed a legal pass. The alternative would have been for Max to keep it legal and them make contact with one another which would have been Raikkonens fault and with Raikkonen being on the outside, likely he would be the one to come out of that contact worst. Verstappen earned the right to attempt to overtake by getting enough of his car alongside - the same as Hamilton in Spain 2016 but Verstappen had significantly more of his car alongside.

The problem with this decision is, the FIA had 3-4 minutes to decide on it, when they needed 15-20 minutes to go through it all. If this was for a none podium place they would have spent 20-30 minutes going over it from every angle and issued the decision way after the race end. The FIA however do not like to change the podium ceremony after the race and rushed the decision.

We have seen in the past, mitigating circumstances apply to racing and we are told that from 2017 on wards the stewards will be more lenient than ever. It wouldn't have surprised me if he had got away with it.

I thought we all agreed Kimi left room for Max to have at least two wheels on track.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:28 pm 
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lamo wrote:

We have seen in the past, mitigating circumstances apply to racing and we are told that from 2017 on wards the stewards will be more lenient than ever. It wouldn't have surprised me if he had got away with it.


More lenient! So any plans for transducers can be thrown out now then. :o


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:21 pm 
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j man wrote:
Completely illegal. He overtook someone by taking a short-cut. I appreciate the point people are making about the inconsistent application of the track limit rules and I agree that in general it needs to be clamped down on much more than it currently is, but for me cutting a corner is a more extreme transgression of that rule than running out wide on the exit. Cutting a corner almost always gives an advantage; when running wide the advantage gained is not always clear.

Incidentally I do recall seeing Max cut an apex around the esses section at various times during the race. This should have been picked up on as well.

I saw Ricciardo do it there as well early in the race when they were showing an onboard of him. Couldn't tell which corner it was but he pretty much straight-lined it.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:41 pm 
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Perfectly fine in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:51 pm 
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I think that it would be unacceptable to allow someone to cut the corner while overtaking another car. The stewards made the correct decision. I do think it's worth noting that people were defending by running off the track at several corners but I didn't see anyone make a pass by cutting a corner. That's just a no-brainer penalty IMO because without penalizing that you basically have Mario Kart.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:52 pm 
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lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
It's become accepted to hang others out to dry if they're on the outside and behind, though, so he's right to complain that said driver just powers through and comes out ahead.

The drivers are not behind, in the instance with Rosberg, Verstappen was behind when he hit him, Verstappen's wheels were locked up and he ran into Rosberg.


I'm just talking about Verstappen vs Bottas, not previous cases. Wasn't Verstappen ahead of Bottas when he ran him out this weekend?

edit: just looked at it, yes he was.

Maybe briefly after he had forced Bottas off the track?


Yes, so in Mexico 2016 we had Rosberg "illegally" overtake Verstappen by going completely off road because Verstappen had just moments before broken a rule himself. The stewards didn't react because both broke rules but for me, one was a racing attempt and the other was quite a blatant cheat.

The same for Bottas-Ricciardo in USA, Bottas used the off road to re-overtake Ricciardo. Again this has a mitigating circumstance because Ricciardo forced him out there.

So you can overtake off road if there are mitigating circumstnaces. So it all comes down to the strength of the mitigating circumstances. Max cut the track because Raikkonen did not leave him racing room and if Raikkonen had he would have performed a legal pass. The alternative would have been for Max to keep it legal and them make contact with one another which would have been Raikkonens fault and with Raikkonen being on the outside, likely he would be the one to come out of that contact worst. Verstappen earned the right to attempt to overtake by getting enough of his car alongside - the same as Hamilton in Spain 2016 but Verstappen had significantly more of his car alongside.

The problem with this decision is, the FIA had 3-4 minutes to decide on it, when they needed 15-20 minutes to go through it all. If this was for a none podium place they would have spent 20-30 minutes going over it from every angle and issued the decision way after the race end. The FIA however do not like to change the podium ceremony after the race and rushed the decision.

We have seen in the past, mitigating circumstances apply to racing and we are told that from 2017 on wards the stewards will be more lenient than ever. It wouldn't have surprised me if he had got away with it.

There really wasn't any mitigating circumstances, for many it was a slam dunk penalty including the stewards, Kimi didn't force Verstappen off the track he made the decision to go off the track.

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