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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:08 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
purchville wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
On Dutch tv, in an official interview for the broadcaster, Max Verstappen called the steward ‘een mongool’ i.e. someone with Downs syndrome.


If true, then I just lost a lot of respect for Max as a human being


As I said earlier in the thread the word does not have the same connotationsin Dutch. It's just a way of saying someone is an idiot. And Max was speaking in Dutch when he said it. I very much doubt Max would have been aware of the idiomwhen translated to English.


Maybe the steward in question is from Mongolia? Oh, and I won't either pretend to be or actually be outraged because, sticks and stones. You are absolutly free to think someone, such as myself, is an idiot and I am quite free to disagree with you. Unfortunately folks have assigned a deep level of spiritual erosion to being disagreed with. So sad. God forbid I yell out "Ritardando!!" at the next band rehearsal.

T.M.S. Too Many Snowflakes.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:16 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
purchville wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
On Dutch tv, in an official interview for the broadcaster, Max Verstappen called the steward ‘een mongool’ i.e. someone with Downs syndrome.


If true, then I just lost a lot of respect for Max as a human being


How good is your Dutch?


Max is clearly an arrogant idiot and knew he was being insulting when he said it, that much is clear. While it's not quite as literal as it would be in English, it still has very unpleasant connotations. But what struck me just as much was the reporter getting in on the act and calling the steward an "eikel." While it's hard to get a 1-1 translation in English, it's roughly equivalent to "dickhead," which I shouldn't say is all that professional from him. I know the Dutch don't have much truck with political correctness, but it still seems a bit overboard


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:30 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
purchville wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
On Dutch tv, in an official interview for the broadcaster, Max Verstappen called the steward ‘een mongool’ i.e. someone with Downs syndrome.


If true, then I just lost a lot of respect for Max as a human being


How good is your Dutch?


Max is clearly an arrogant idiot and knew he was being insulting when he said it, that much is clear. While it's not quite as literal as it would be in English, it still has very unpleasant connotations. But what struck me just as much was the reporter getting in on the act and calling the steward an "eikel." While it's hard to get a 1-1 translation in English, it's roughly equivalent to "dickhead," which I shouldn't say is all that professional from him. I know the Dutch don't have much truck with political correctness, but it still seems a bit overboard
In my post, I wrote the translation as d***head, but that is not a rough translation. It is exactly what "eikel" means. It is meant to be as offensive as it sounds, and such language, just as Vettel's message to Whiting last year, should never be allowed.

I see no reason to speak of political correctness and turning a blind eye. Doing so means this will happen again and again. Don't underestimate the impact this kind of language on young viewers; the Max Verstappen following is immense in the Netherlands, and no stone is left unturned to maximise it.

Edit: and does anybody really see a "heat of the moment" here? An enraged Max? I don't.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:28 am 
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Fiki wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
purchville wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
On Dutch tv, in an official interview for the broadcaster, Max Verstappen called the steward ‘een mongool’ i.e. someone with Downs syndrome.


If true, then I just lost a lot of respect for Max as a human being


How good is your Dutch?


Max is clearly an arrogant idiot and knew he was being insulting when he said it, that much is clear. While it's not quite as literal as it would be in English, it still has very unpleasant connotations. But what struck me just as much was the reporter getting in on the act and calling the steward an "eikel." While it's hard to get a 1-1 translation in English, it's roughly equivalent to "dickhead," which I shouldn't say is all that professional from him. I know the Dutch don't have much truck with political correctness, but it still seems a bit overboard
In my post, I wrote the translation as d***head, but that is not a rough translation. It is exactly what "eikel" means. It is meant to be as offensive as it sounds, and such language, just as Vettel's message to Whiting last year, should never be allowed.

I see no reason to speak of political correctness and turning a blind eye. Doing so means this will happen again and again. Don't underestimate the impact this kind of language on young viewers; the Max Verstappen following is immense in the Netherlands, and no stone is left unturned to maximise it.

Edit: and does anybody really see a "heat of the moment" here? An enraged Max? I don't.

No generally speaking the name calling was said with amusement and appreciated by all and sundry.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 4th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:18 am 
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Get over yourselfs.

I was born and still live in the district in the Netherlands where Max is from. There, the word ‘mongool’ has nothing to do with a person with Down syndrome. It’s just baked in the dialect through the centuries. I’m sure in the UK there’s a lot of these words, which on it’s own can be very offensive, but have lost it’s true meaning. (if you say goddamnit you’re not actually wishing something horrible happens).

Stop focusing on every word Max says. He’s frustrated, and to some extent has every right to be. He’s had a crap season with a lot of mechanical failures. And then when results are there the FIA comes in with ridiculous decisions. There’s only so much a man can bare. Notice I said man, because the age thing has nothing to do with it. A lot of drivers would reach their boiling point. This Gary guy, was the one who went to MB at Suzuka, urging them to file a protest against the stewards ruling, when the other stewards decided no further actions. That does smell like a personal vendetta.

Max is a true racer, who wants to win it all. Why else would he extend his contract with RBR? He knows he will be second driver at MB or Ferrari, and his goal not to become wealthy, but the next world champion. Becoming a Valteri or Kimi is his worst nightmare. A direct battle with Lewis, also a true racer, that’s what he’s looking forward to. If you would look closely at discussions between the two, you will see they both have high regard for each other. There’s just something i’m not seeing between Seb and Lewis. Well, maybe before Baku it was there.

Something else they have in common is wanting to please the fans with their racecraft. When Max gives it all and drives that RBR to the podium, and then gets stripped of it, he actually feels sorry for the sport and it’s fans. Keep in mind, driving a car that peaks in cornerning, requires much more skill, work and concentration, vs. a powerfull PU in the back. This adds to the frustration when he actually makes it to the podium.

When he said he hopes the fans won’t come next year in Austin, that’s just frustration towards the FIA speaking. He’s fed up with ppl destroying the sport. It it childish, yes. Is it understandable, ofcourse. But be glad there is still someone speaking his mind, and making F1 popular again. Because I hate to break it to you guys, but watching Lewis drive to another pole and easy win, is not entertaining to non-UK F1 fans. I’m sure fans can’t wait to see Seb and Max fight over the first corner.

Funny though how you’re all learning Dutch. Well, learning to swear in Dutch :)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:50 am 
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Knuppel1983 wrote:
Get over yourselfs.

I was born and still live in the district in the Netherlands where Max is from. There, the word ‘mongool’ has nothing to do with a person with Down syndrome. It’s just baked in the dialect through the centuries. I’m sure in the UK there’s a lot of these words, which on it’s own can be very offensive, but have lost it’s true meaning. (if you say goddamnit you’re not actually wishing something horrible happens).

Stop focusing on every word Max says. He’s frustrated, and to some extent has every right to be. He’s had a crap season with a lot of mechanical failures. And then when results are there the FIA comes in with ridiculous decisions. There’s only so much a man can bare. Notice I said man, because the age thing has nothing to do with it. A lot of drivers would reach their boiling point. This Gary guy, was the one who went to MB at Suzuka, urging them to file a protest against the stewards ruling, when the other stewards decided no further actions. That does smell like a personal vendetta.

Max is a true racer, who wants to win it all. Why else would he extend his contract with RBR? He knows he will be second driver at MB or Ferrari, and his goal not to become wealthy, but the next world champion. Becoming a Valteri or Kimi is his worst nightmare. A direct battle with Lewis, also a true racer, that’s what he’s looking forward to. If you would look closely at discussions between the two, you will see they both have high regard for each other. There’s just something i’m not seeing between Seb and Lewis. Well, maybe before Baku it was there.

Something else they have in common is wanting to please the fans with their racecraft. When Max gives it all and drives that RBR to the podium, and then gets stripped of it, he actually feels sorry for the sport and it’s fans. Keep in mind, driving a car that peaks in cornerning, requires much more skill, work and concentration, vs. a powerfull PU in the back. This adds to the frustration when he actually makes it to the podium.

When he said he hopes the fans won’t come next year in Austin, that’s just frustration towards the FIA speaking. He’s fed up with ppl destroying the sport. It it childish, yes. Is it understandable, ofcourse. But be glad there is still someone speaking his mind, and making F1 popular again. Because I hate to break it to you guys, but watching Lewis drive to another pole and easy win, is not entertaining to non-UK F1 fans. I’m sure fans can’t wait to see Seb and Max fight over the first corner.

Funny though how you’re all learning Dutch. Well, learning to swear in Dutch :)
Knuppel, I don't have to learn Dutch, I have spoken it all my life. Nodoby needs the origins of the words mongool and eikel, and how they aren't to be interpreted literally. The message by both interviewer and Max was crystal clear.

Every race fan knows Max Verstappen is an extremely talented driver, most likely a future world champion. But every race fan has also seen Max Verstappen overtake a competitor by leaving the track, while room was left for him. The stewards, in their official report contradict Verstappen's view that he was 5cm off - in itself an admission he was indeed not on track - and estimated it as "at least half a metre". No wonder the stewards were unanimous in handing Verstappen a penalty.

Do show us which ridiculous decisions the stewards have made, that would make us understand why Verstappen felt there was reason for angry criticism. I fail to spot them.

Max Verstappen is not the only true racer in F1. All of the drivers who made it there, are there on merit. Every driver in F1 has the drive to become world champion. But every driver in F1 should study, understand and live by the rules. Let him win races and championships fairly and everybody will be happy for his achievements.

I don't know what happened at Suzuka, but I haven't found a stewards' report concerning Max Verstappen. But let one thing be clear; even if a driver or a team cannot appeal against a decision by the stewards, filing an official complaint is still a step they can undertake. If Red Bull and Verstappen haven't officially protested the Austin penalty, it is for a very good reason: the whole team and Max Verstappen know it isn't allowed to overtake off-track. They know they have no leg to stand on, and try to confuse race fans with drivel.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:25 pm 
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Have to agree with Fiki here, I don't speak Dutch but you didn't need to to understand what Max was saying, his demeanour, crowd reaction and response to the interviewers incitement said it all.

He probably will win a WDC but he is not above the sport, neither is he indispensable to racing. To be honest I'm surprised that Horner or his father haven't guided him better.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:36 pm 
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At last year's race in Suzuka, Verstappen made a questionable defense against an approaching Lewis Hamilton, forcing the Mercedes driver onto the escape road to prevent an overtake.

According to a story published during the race's aftermath by Autobild, Connelly, overruled by the rest of the stewarding team, preferring to live and let live, stormed into the Mercedes motorhome after the race, urging Mercedes staff to file a protest against the stewards' ruling. Missing the audience of Toto Wolff and Niki Lauda, both of whom were already on a flight out of Japan, he instead convinced Ron Meadows and Paddy Lowe to complain on behalf of the team. When Wolff received word of the incident, he made a few calls to retract the team's complaint, as he and Hamilton were in agreement: Verstappen's move was acceptable. An article by Autosport corroborates both the filing and withdrawal of Mercedes' complaint.

Source.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:40 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Have to agree with Fiki here, I don't speak Dutch but you didn't need to to understand what Max was saying, his demeanour, crowd reaction and response to the interviewers incitement said it all.

He probably will win a WDC but he is not above the sport, neither is he indispensable to racing. To be honest I'm surprised that Horner or his father haven't guided him better.


From Horner I expected more. His dad, well, not the best of influence....


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:46 pm 
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Knuppel1983 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Have to agree with Fiki here, I don't speak Dutch but you didn't need to to understand what Max was saying, his demeanour, crowd reaction and response to the interviewers incitement said it all.

He probably will win a WDC but he is not above the sport, neither is he indispensable to racing. To be honest I'm surprised that Horner or his father haven't guided him better.


From Horner I expected more. His dad, well, not the best of influence....

Horner time and again has shown himself just to be a pure politician, he is paid just to look after the best interests of both the team and it's drivers which means always taking their sides on whatever matter it happens to be.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 4th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:22 pm 
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Knuppel1983 wrote:
At last year's race in Suzuka, Verstappen made a questionable defense against an approaching Lewis Hamilton, forcing the Mercedes driver onto the escape road to prevent an overtake.

According to a story published during the race's aftermath by Autobild, Connelly, overruled by the rest of the stewarding team, preferring to live and let live, stormed into the Mercedes motorhome after the race, urging Mercedes staff to file a protest against the stewards' ruling. Missing the audience of Toto Wolff and Niki Lauda, both of whom were already on a flight out of Japan, he instead convinced Ron Meadows and Paddy Lowe to complain on behalf of the team. When Wolff received word of the incident, he made a few calls to retract the team's complaint, as he and Hamilton were in agreement: Verstappen's move was acceptable. An article by Autosport corroborates both the filing and withdrawal of Mercedes' complaint.

Source.


So what?

I assume you have posted this to suggest that Connelly is anti-Max. It dosn't change a thing... the penalty call was the right call and all attempts at justification or excusing or denying wrong doing does not change it.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:32 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
At last year's race in Suzuka, Verstappen made a questionable defense against an approaching Lewis Hamilton, forcing the Mercedes driver onto the escape road to prevent an overtake.

According to a story published during the race's aftermath by Autobild, Connelly, overruled by the rest of the stewarding team, preferring to live and let live, stormed into the Mercedes motorhome after the race, urging Mercedes staff to file a protest against the stewards' ruling. Missing the audience of Toto Wolff and Niki Lauda, both of whom were already on a flight out of Japan, he instead convinced Ron Meadows and Paddy Lowe to complain on behalf of the team. When Wolff received word of the incident, he made a few calls to retract the team's complaint, as he and Hamilton were in agreement: Verstappen's move was acceptable. An article by Autosport corroborates both the filing and withdrawal of Mercedes' complaint.

Source.


So what?

I assume you have posted this to suggest that Connelly is anti-Max. It dosn't change a thing... the penalty call was the right call and all attempts at justification or excusing or denying wrong doing does not change it.


It further explains Max extreme reaction to a particular steward.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:29 pm 
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I posted it because Fiki said he doesn’t know what went down in Suzuka.
Nothing more... so stop assuming.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:40 am 
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From the fans viewpoint - every sport needs it's heroes and it villains. You have to have both in combat.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:15 am 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
making a statement like this is just going to hamper his career in the long run?


Why would it? He is showing that talent exists inside him. He's fast becoming one of the top 3 out of 6 drivers in 3 teams.

His support is growing world wide and even different nationality fans are following him.

He is young, not a robot and speaking from his heart. At times he will say silly things like every driver has. When he competes for titles we will see if pressure gets to him etc.

Team bosses would rather have a great driver that was questionable instead of a good driver that behaved.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:30 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Thoroughbreds are considered "hot-blooded" horses that are known for their agility, speed, and spirit.


You forgot unpredictable and sometimes aggressive. Both Stallions and Mares in their earlier years have so much energy and ability they are almost jumping out of their skin. MANY have bitten, kicked trampled and even killed trainers without any prior history of aggression. A trainer I met in Ocala, Florida (Horse Farm Central) 20 years ago told me that it is rare, but when something clicks in a thoroughbred's brain, it can attack in a vicious manor from out of nowhere and then snap back to their normal selves, and he said it almost always happens in their more formative and competitive stages of life, but once mature, it almost never happens.

We were ALL young once (Many reading this likely still in the early 20's) and I for one remember how quick I was at that age to lash out and call people out I felt made a mistake that affected me or accused me of something I didn't do and looking back now with another 24 years of life experience, and parenthood, I can appreciate how much more comported and collected I am today than I was back then. This kid was thrust in the limelight by a father whom, if we take a moment to REMEMBER, was quite an arrogant guy in his youth, that even today you can see in him. I'd be willing to bet Jos has witnessed many rants from his son towards others throughout his racing journey and has rarely if ever called his attention to teach him how to behave towards others. Maybe on a personal level Max is a very nice guy, but publicly there isn't a hint of arrogance… just a bunch of it.

When he's in a clam situation or times when he's hung out with Daniel he seems like a good guy and below the surface I'm sure he is a very nice kid, but he's been groomed to be a certain way publicly and that's what we see. Hopefully with time he will come to realize that there are better ways to comport oneself and will be more mindful before answering questions or saying certain things, but it also doesn't help when he's in the limelight and reporters are hitting him with a gazillion questions all day every day. Yes, he's chosen to be in the spotlight by pursuing a career in such a widely followed sport, but he signed up to DRIVE a damn car on the limit and as it turned out, he's really great at it.

Now, getting real with the situation, if ANYONE in here was in his position and the exact same thing happened to you, and you are there, standing in the winners room getting ready to take the podium and collect a trophy with all the cameras on you, watching you chatting it up as he was, only to then be told hey buddy, sorry but the stewards decided to give you a 5 second penalty so you have to go, how would we ALL react? I'd venture to say, not all that differently, and please spare us the Oh I know I wouldn't say anything that would offend anyone because you would be blindsided in such a situation and you wouldn't have the benefit of hindsight with which to best choose your words or your reaction.

Personally I feel like this about it, but today, everything can be blown out of proportion…

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO_xfR64qSk[/youtube]

RaggedMan wrote:
"Sensitive souls"?
There is nothing sensitive about calling someone out when they say or do something stupid, and the same goes for when an apology that's insincere is given.

When you screw up you've got 2 choices. You either embrace it and double down by saying you were right and not apologize, or you give and apology that says "I'm sorry my actions did harm" not "I'm sorry if my actions did harm."

Well, this line of viewing situations is where I feel some people have a set opinion and are not open to the possibility that such opinion is not exactly right and that not everything is black and white.

Sometimes the term "I apologize if my actions or words offended anyone" can be absolutely truthful AND sincere.
Today though people have this idea that things have to be said a certain way in order for it to ring true with them. I'm sure we have all said things innocently that have offended others when in fact no malice or offense was intended in any way, shape or form.

For example, as I'm writing this a few people are discussing job specs and someone just said "it wont fit, it's too tight" and well…
Michael Scott… Nnnnthat's what she said!" anyone???
And while the comment was innocent enough, most of us heard that and immediately thought the same thing, but I'm sure if there were more people in this department, someone might take offense to it even though it was a funny thing that just happened. If the person whom said it said I'm sorry if what I said offended anyone, but it was meant to be funny, explaining it was meant as a joke does not diminish the sincerity of the apology.

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