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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:22 pm 
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Games get played and incidents do happen, but I think at the core their relationship is quite strong and respectful, albeit not close. On the whole, they are very reasonable with each other and seem to let bygones be bygones quite promptly with each other (Azerbaijan). They race hard but fair and keep it clean. We know that F1 drivers are often quite emotional beings but I feel their relationship is far from sour and that, for the most part, they represent their sport very well. It's easy to point out flaws and imperfections in either guy but my bottom line perspective is that they're being a credit to the sport and long may it continue between themselves, Mercedes and Ferrari. Hopefully, Red Bull and a couple of other teams (McLaren, Renault - I'd venture) get into the mix for the Championships over the next couple of years.

What are your thoughts on the relationship between Lewis and Seb?


Last edited by Invade on Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:25 pm 
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Also feel free to discuss other relationships.

Vettel's and Verstappen's seems contentious.
Hamilton-Rosberg.
Ricciardo-Verstappen.
Perez-Ocon.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:49 pm 
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Hamilton/Rosberg is the moat destructive there has ever been in F1.

I think the others are generally OK although I doubt they socialise much out of F1.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:49 pm 
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I'm a bit sceptical, tbh. I seem to recall Hamilton being a bit dismissive of Vettel when the latter was in his championship Red Bulls. A bit like Alonso is now. The cynic in me says bigging Vettel up increases his own achievement in beating him. But I could be being unfair.

I think the Alonso/Hamilton bromance seems fairly genuine. They went head to head and saw how good the other was, so I guess the mutual admiration is real.

I don't think Vettel has any issues with Verstappen, but I think Max bears a grudge from the Ferrari drivers complaining about some of his more dodgy moves last year. I think that's Verstappen's youthful arrogance as much as anything, as in "diss me and you're my enemy."

Hamilton seems to have virtually zero respect for Rosberg. As grudges go, it's a monster! You can practically taste the loathing whenever he speaks of him!

Ricciardo-Verstappen seem to have a pretty strong mutual respect thing going, although I wonder how much longer that will last if Verstappen keeps beating Ricciardo. I think Verstappen already thinks he's much better and it's starting to show in some comments, so that may start rankling

Perez-Ocon? i think they should keep them away from sharp objects...


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:21 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Hamilton/Rosberg is the moat destructive there has ever been in F1.

That depends if you're looking at it as isolated years, or as the whole of their relationship taken together. As a single year, none of the Hamilton/Rosberg years came close to the toxicity of Alonso/Hamilton in 2007 or Senna/Prost in 1989 (just to name the two most obvious). But as their whole time together, I would say for consistent disrespect and animus it would quite possibly be #1. You get the feeling that Lewis never respected Nico, and never came to. Senna and Prost went through a period of hating each other, but by the end they had reconciled; the same with Alonso and Hamilton. I can't imagine Lewis lifting Nico up to the top step of the podium in their final race together, for example, or saying how much he misses him while he's commentating a race.

As for the current relationships, my read:

Vettel/Verstappen: I think Vettel regards Verstappen as a driver with no respect for the F1 hierarchy, which he sees himself as the head of. He think he's earned Max's respect, and isn't getting it. That's the source of the conflict, as I read it.

Ricciardo/Verstappen: This one seems genuinely positive. Verstappen is probably grateful to Ricciardo for helping him out so much when he was fresh to the team, and not trying to shut him out of data or setups as some more established drivers would do against a fast young teammate. Ricciardo, for his part, seems able to get along with everyone. I think there is a bit more of an edge underneath the surface lately, with Max saying (essentially) that he sees himself as the #1 at Red Bull and Ricciardo publicly saying that Max is wrong about the penalty and he cut the track. For the time being, I think this one will stay positive, though.

Perez/Ocon: Toxic. They're keeping it under the surface right now because the team is fed up with them, but I think the relationship is the same. Perez needs to prove that he's quicker than the new guy, and Ocon feels he's already better than Perez and doesn't want the older driver to get in his way. I don't see this relationship getting any better.

And a few others...

Hamilton/Bottas: Bottas seems weirdly content to be Lewis' number two, which is the only reason their relationship is working.

Vettel/Raikkonen: Kimi is definitely aware that he's in the twilight of his career, and willing to play number two to Vettel. Since both drivers are relatively happy with their roles, there's no issue. Also, both drivers are personally friends outside of F1. Probably the most stable relationship on the grid, and with no signs of issues.

Alonso/Vandoorne: Right now, this is very much a master/apprentice relationship, and it works fine. There comes a time when every apprentice tries to challenge the master, and when that happens we'll find out the real mettle of their relationship.

Alonso/Hamilton: Alonso and Hamilton both consider themselves the two best drivers on the grid (although likely in different orders!) and are united by that mutual respect.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:22 pm 
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@Zoue

I think your scepticism and cynicism is well-founded. I think that's a part of Hamilton's games and that he's savvy in using the media to position himself more powerfully and favourably - just listen to his tone in describing how Vettel wasn't saving his tyres in the first stint at the 2017 US GP. He plays quite a lot of those games I think, and it's been a longstanding feature now. The actions on the track between the two are occasionally on the edge and generally tough but fair. They've also had some nice moments (seagull-gate) and have been fine with each other this season even post-Azerbaijan where Vettel didn't exactly paint himself in glory (I'm long since over it).


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:24 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Hamilton/Rosberg is the moat destructive there has ever been in F1.

I think the others are generally OK although I doubt they socialise much out of F1.


I'm surprised by that TBH. Is it really more destructive than the Prost-Senna relationship was, which resulted in hugely key collisions in the closing stages of multiple seasons? Either way, the competition wasn't destructive enough to stop either of the 4 drivers collectively mopping up all Championships for the years in which their cars were dominant.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:28 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
I'm a bit sceptical, tbh. I seem to recall Hamilton being a bit dismissive of Vettel when the latter was in his championship Red Bulls. A bit like Alonso is now. The cynic in me says bigging Vettel up increases his own achievement in beating him. But I could be being unfair.

I think the Alonso/Hamilton bromance seems fairly genuine. They went head to head and saw how good the other was, so I guess the mutual admiration is real.

I don't think Vettel has any issues with Verstappen, but I think Max bears a grudge from the Ferrari drivers complaining about some of his more dodgy moves last year. I think that's Verstappen's youthful arrogance as much as anything, as in "diss me and you're my enemy."

Hamilton seems to have virtually zero respect for Rosberg. As grudges go, it's a monster! You can practically taste the loathing whenever he speaks of him!

Ricciardo-Verstappen seem to have a pretty strong mutual respect thing going, although I wonder how much longer that will last if Verstappen keeps beating Ricciardo. I think Verstappen already thinks he's much better and it's starting to show in some comments, so that may start rankling

Perez-Ocon? i think they should keep them away from sharp objects...



Exediron wrote:
That depends if you're looking at it as isolated years, or as the whole of their relationship taken together. As a single year, none of the Hamilton/Rosberg years came close to the toxicity of Alonso/Hamilton in 2007 or Senna/Prost in 1989 (just to name the two most obvious). But as their whole time together, I would say for consistent disrespect and animus it would quite possibly be #1. You get the feeling that Lewis never respected Nico, and never came to. Senna and Prost went through a period of hating each other, but by the end they had reconciled; the same with Alonso and Hamilton. I can't imagine Lewis lifting Nico up to the top step of the podium in their final race together, for example, or saying how much he misses him while he's commentating a race.

As for the current relationships, my read:

Vettel/Verstappen: I think Vettel regards Verstappen as a driver with no respect for the F1 hierarchy, which he sees himself as the head of. He think he's earned Max's respect, and isn't getting it. That's the source of the conflict, as I read it.

Ricciardo/Verstappen: This one seems genuinely positive. Verstappen is probably grateful to Ricciardo for helping him out so much when he was fresh to the team, and not trying to shut him out of data or setups as some more established drivers would do against a fast young teammate. Ricciardo, for his part, seems able to get along with everyone. I think there is a bit more of an edge underneath the surface lately, with Max saying (essentially) that he sees himself as the #1 at Red Bull and Ricciardo publicly saying that Max is wrong about the penalty and he cut the track. For the time being, I think this one will stay positive, though.

Perez/Ocon: Toxic. They're keeping it under the surface right now because the team is fed up with them, but I think the relationship is the same. Perez needs to prove that he's quicker than the new guy, and Ocon feels he's already better than Perez and doesn't want the older driver to get in his way. I don't see this relationship getting any better.

And a few others...

Hamilton/Bottas: Bottas seems weirdly content to be Lewis' number two, which is the only reason their relationship is working.

Vettel/Raikkonen: Kimi is definitely aware that he's in the twilight of his career, and willing to play number two to Vettel. Since both drivers are relatively happy with their roles, there's no issue. Also, both drivers are personally friends outside of F1. Probably the most stable relationship on the grid, and with no signs of issues.

Alonso/Vandoorne: Right now, this is very much a master/apprentice relationship, and it works fine. There comes a time when every apprentice tries to challenge the master, and when that happens we'll find out the real mettle of their relationship.

Alonso/Hamilton: Alonso and Hamilton both consider themselves the two best drivers on the grid (although likely in different orders!) and are united by that mutual respect.




Interesting stuff.

The whole Alonso-Ham dynamic makes a lot of sense. They earned each other's respect in direct competition.

I find the Ham-Bottas description interesting and you may very well be right. If Bottas finds form and can equal Hamilton in 2018, how do you suppose that relationship will change?

Zoue's take on Vettel-Verstappen is interesting as it suggests the grudge is only one-way and that Seb has no issues with Max. Still, I'd have to assume that even if he doesn't have a problem with Max per se that he must be wary of Max based on his reputation and based on the understanding that he has of how Max may feel about him. So perhaps no problem but acutely aware.


Last edited by Invade on Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:28 pm 
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Invade wrote:
@Zoue

I think your scepticism and cynicism is well-founded. I think that's a part of Hamilton's games and that he's savvy in using the media to position himself more powerfully and favourably - just listen to his tone in describing how Vettel wasn't saving his tyres in the first stint at the 2017 US GP. He plays quite a lot of those games I think, and it's been a longstanding feature now. The actions on the track between the two are occasionally on the edge and generally tough but fair. They've also had some nice moments (seagull-gate) and have been fine with each other this season even post-Azerbaijan where Vettel didn't exactly paint himself in glory (I'm long since over it).

I think you're right about Lewis playing the games in the media and mentally. I also feel that Lewis has always considered Seb second-rate to himself (and Alonso, as he said frequently in the RBR years). This year has finally given him a chance to really assess himself against Vettel in equal cars, and he probably feels his conclusions have been confirmed.

As for the part in bold, I honestly do wonder if Baku has had a lasting effect on how Lewis thinks of Seb. If it was me, it would be hard for it not to.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:30 pm 
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Invade wrote:
I find the Ham-Bottas description interesting and you may very well be right. If Bottas finds form and can equal Hamilton in 2018, how do you suppose that relationship will change?

Badly; I think Lewis has gotten quite comfortable with his dominance over Bottas, and we've had plenty of proof in the past that he's not very comfortable with a teammate who can actually challenge him.

I don't expect it to happen, though; Bottas has only beaten Lewis when the latter is very uncomfortable with the car, or has had a grid penalty.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:37 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'm a bit sceptical, tbh. I seem to recall Hamilton being a bit dismissive of Vettel when the latter was in his championship Red Bulls. A bit like Alonso is now. The cynic in me says bigging Vettel up increases his own achievement in beating him. But I could be being unfair.

I think the Alonso/Hamilton bromance seems fairly genuine. They went head to head and saw how good the other was, so I guess the mutual admiration is real.

I don't think Vettel has any issues with Verstappen, but I think Max bears a grudge from the Ferrari drivers complaining about some of his more dodgy moves last year. I think that's Verstappen's youthful arrogance as much as anything, as in "diss me and you're my enemy."

Hamilton seems to have virtually zero respect for Rosberg. As grudges go, it's a monster! You can practically taste the loathing whenever he speaks of him!

Ricciardo-Verstappen seem to have a pretty strong mutual respect thing going, although I wonder how much longer that will last if Verstappen keeps beating Ricciardo. I think Verstappen already thinks he's much better and it's starting to show in some comments, so that may start rankling

Perez-Ocon? i think they should keep them away from sharp objects...



Exediron wrote:
That depends if you're looking at it as isolated years, or as the whole of their relationship taken together. As a single year, none of the Hamilton/Rosberg years came close to the toxicity of Alonso/Hamilton in 2007 or Senna/Prost in 1989 (just to name the two most obvious). But as their whole time together, I would say for consistent disrespect and animus it would quite possibly be #1. You get the feeling that Lewis never respected Nico, and never came to. Senna and Prost went through a period of hating each other, but by the end they had reconciled; the same with Alonso and Hamilton. I can't imagine Lewis lifting Nico up to the top step of the podium in their final race together, for example, or saying how much he misses him while he's commentating a race.

As for the current relationships, my read:

Vettel/Verstappen: I think Vettel regards Verstappen as a driver with no respect for the F1 hierarchy, which he sees himself as the head of. He think he's earned Max's respect, and isn't getting it. That's the source of the conflict, as I read it.

Ricciardo/Verstappen: This one seems genuinely positive. Verstappen is probably grateful to Ricciardo for helping him out so much when he was fresh to the team, and not trying to shut him out of data or setups as some more established drivers would do against a fast young teammate. Ricciardo, for his part, seems able to get along with everyone. I think there is a bit more of an edge underneath the surface lately, with Max saying (essentially) that he sees himself as the #1 at Red Bull and Ricciardo publicly saying that Max is wrong about the penalty and he cut the track. For the time being, I think this one will stay positive, though.

Perez/Ocon: Toxic. They're keeping it under the surface right now because the team is fed up with them, but I think the relationship is the same. Perez needs to prove that he's quicker than the new guy, and Ocon feels he's already better than Perez and doesn't want the older driver to get in his way. I don't see this relationship getting any better.

And a few others...

Hamilton/Bottas: Bottas seems weirdly content to be Lewis' number two, which is the only reason their relationship is working.

Vettel/Raikkonen: Kimi is definitely aware that he's in the twilight of his career, and willing to play number two to Vettel. Since both drivers are relatively happy with their roles, there's no issue. Also, both drivers are personally friends outside of F1. Probably the most stable relationship on the grid, and with no signs of issues.

Alonso/Vandoorne: Right now, this is very much a master/apprentice relationship, and it works fine. There comes a time when every apprentice tries to challenge the master, and when that happens we'll find out the real mettle of their relationship.

Alonso/Hamilton: Alonso and Hamilton both consider themselves the two best drivers on the grid (although likely in different orders!) and are united by that mutual respect.




Interesting stuff.

The whole Alonso-Ham dynamic makes a lot of sense. They earned each other's respect in direct competition.

I find the Ham-Bottas description interesting and you may very well be right. If Bottas finds form and can equal Hamilton in 2018, how do you suppose that relationship will change?

Zoue's take on Vettel-Verstappen is interesting as it suggests the grudge is only one-way and that Seb has no issues with Max. Still, I'd have to assume that even if he doesn't have a problem with Max per se that he must be wary of Max based on his reputation and based on the understanding that he has of how Max may feel about him. So perhaps no problem but acutely aware.

yeah, that's pretty much how I feel. I think wary is a good way to describe it, but I don't think Vettel has any issues with Max per se. Max, OTOH, seems quite contemptuous of Vettel in some comments and I get the feeling there's no love lost there. It's like he's bearing a grudge of some sort. Putting it down to last year's clashes is just guesswork on my part, but it seems as logical a conclusion as any!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:39 pm 
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I think there are a lot of mind games that go on outside the cars. If s driver loses out on track, it is usually accepted. If there has been politicking involved it rankles.

Getting beaten by a guy in the same car is a demonstration. Getting manoeuvred into second place leaves a taste, especially if your team-mate has pre arranged it.

Its like shaping up for a fist fight and getting sapped from behind.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:43 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Invade wrote:
I find the Ham-Bottas description interesting and you may very well be right. If Bottas finds form and can equal Hamilton in 2018, how do you suppose that relationship will change?

Badly; I think Lewis has gotten quite comfortable with his dominance over Bottas, and we've had plenty of proof in the past that he's not very comfortable with a teammate who can actually challenge him.

I don't expect it to happen, though; Bottas has only beaten Lewis when the latter is very uncomfortable with the car, or has had a grid penalty.


I imagine Lewis would still play it fair enough on track but that his relationship would grow very cold and stand-offish and that he'd adopt a bunker mentality and showcase more of his well-known neuroticism. At the same time I'm not quite sure. I think Rosberg himself compounded problems with his own more devious nature (than Bottas'). It's possible that if Bottas equalled Hamilton that he'd take it better because he sees Bottas as a perfectly honest and transparent guy who doesn't hide anything but I still think he'd be bitter and complain about how other drivers get to use his data to find parity and other such things, and still be generally stand-offish regardless.

So yeh the two words/terms that come to mind when I think of a likely reaction are neuroticism and bunker mentality.

Would be interesting to see but I doubt Bottas will ever be on Hamilton's level. Ricciardo might be.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:00 pm 
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Here's a question. Supposing Ricciardo joined Ferrari in 2019 and he beat out Vettel again, how do you suppose Vettel would take it?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:10 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Here's a question. Supposing Ricciardo joined Ferrari in 2019 and he beat out Vettel again, how do you suppose Vettel would take it?


Seb is a winner so he wouldn't take it well. But I have no doubt Seb would wipe the floor with Ricciardo. That Red Bull season was a one-off anomaly because of a mixture of incredible bad luck and Seb not getting on with the car for that year.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:29 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Here's a question. Supposing Ricciardo joined Ferrari in 2019 and he beat out Vettel again, how do you suppose Vettel would take it?


Laying down? :twisted:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:22 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Here's a question. Supposing Ricciardo joined Ferrari in 2019 and he beat out Vettel again, how do you suppose Vettel would take it?

If it was close, I think he'd take it okay; he does seem to genuinely get along with Ricciardo. If it was a real thrashing, I expect he'd start to show some of his signature temper.

He seemed to take being beaten pretty well in 2014, honestly. He seemed more annoyed by his reliability issues than his lack of pace compared to his teammate.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:36 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Invade wrote:
Here's a question. Supposing Ricciardo joined Ferrari in 2019 and he beat out Vettel again, how do you suppose Vettel would take it?

If it was close, I think he'd take it okay; he does seem to genuinely get along with Ricciardo. If it was a real thrashing, I expect he'd start to show some of his signature temper.

He seemed to take being beaten pretty well in 2014, honestly. He seemed more annoyed by his reliability issues than his lack of pace compared to his teammate.


I don't think he saw it as a 'lack of pace' more a difference in preference of car. To me (on a personal level) Seb was not driving to the potential of the car. If this was on a mechanical level or a psychological level I don't know. But I do not see it as a fair head to head in equal cars.
Which is not to say Dan would not have beaten him if it had been.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:54 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Hamilton seems to have virtually zero respect for Rosberg. As grudges go, it's a monster! You can practically taste the loathing whenever he speaks of him!

I think that Hamilton's relationship with Rosberg fundamentally changed after qualifying in Monaco in 2014.

Hamilton had always spoken very highly about Rosberg prior to joining Mercedes - and they were definitely highly competitive friends - even if they had something of a Pride and Prejudice style relationship.

Back then Hamilton would always speak of Rosberg as being on the same level as the top drivers and implying he was ahead of Vettel (who neither he nor Alonso truly fully respect)

However - what Monaco 2014 showed was the lengths Rosberg was prepared to go to to beat Hamilton. I don't think that Hamilton expected it of Rosberg (and even if - in the slim chance it was genuinely an accident - Hamilton definitely believes it was deliberate)

As for Hamilton's relationship with Vettel. I don't think there is any respect, especially not after Baku. After that race Hamilton switched from calling him Sebastian to calling him Vettel, he would also refer to him as "a 4x World Champion" when criticising his behaviour - almost to underline how little he now respects him because he expects better.

I think his relationship with Vettel mellowed after Hamilton had a dominant car and was able to catch up and surpass most of Vettel's tallies (for wins, poles etc) as he felt the perceived 'injustice' of Vettel having a car neither he or Alonso could take the fight to fairly had been reset, which accounts for their friendlier attitude pre Baku - but there is no doubt that since then Hamilton has been very pointed in his criticism, highlighting the areas of weakness he feels exists.

It's a double edged sword, because if Vettel has a dominant car next year he'll be in a position to return the criticism. However,I feel Hamilton is probably also trying to unsettle Ferrari, implying that he would have been doing a better job to have them try and question their lead driver's abilities.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:23 am 
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Invade wrote:
Here's a question. Supposing Ricciardo joined Ferrari in 2019 and he beat out Vettel again, how do you suppose Vettel would take it?

Vettel never showed any bad behaviour when losing to Ricciardo in 2014, so there's no reason to believe he would behave badly if it happened again. Doesn't mean he'd be happy abut it, but otherwise I don't see big drama


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:29 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Hamilton seems to have virtually zero respect for Rosberg. As grudges go, it's a monster! You can practically taste the loathing whenever he speaks of him!

I think that Hamilton's relationship with Rosberg fundamentally changed after qualifying in Monaco in 2014.

Hamilton had always spoken very highly about Rosberg prior to joining Mercedes - and they were definitely highly competitive friends - even if they had something of a Pride and Prejudice style relationship.

Back then Hamilton would always speak of Rosberg as being on the same level as the top drivers and implying he was ahead of Vettel (who neither he nor Alonso truly fully respect)

However - what Monaco 2014 showed was the lengths Rosberg was prepared to go to to beat Hamilton. I don't think that Hamilton expected it of Rosberg (and even if - in the slim chance it was genuinely an accident - Hamilton definitely believes it was deliberate)

As for Hamilton's relationship with Vettel. I don't think there is any respect, especially not after Baku. After that race Hamilton switched from calling him Sebastian to calling him Vettel, he would also refer to him as "a 4x World Champion" when criticising his behaviour - almost to underline how little he now respects him because he expects better.

I think his relationship with Vettel mellowed after Hamilton had a dominant car and was able to catch up and surpass most of Vettel's tallies (for wins, poles etc) as he felt the perceived 'injustice' of Vettel having a car neither he or Alonso could take the fight to fairly had been reset, which accounts for their friendlier attitude pre Baku - but there is no doubt that since then Hamilton has been very pointed in his criticism, highlighting the areas of weakness he feels exists.

It's a double edged sword, because if Vettel has a dominant car next year he'll be in a position to return the criticism. However,I feel Hamilton is probably also trying to unsettle Ferrari, implying that he would have been doing a better job to have them try and question their lead driver's abilities.

I think that's a pretty fair assessment :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:32 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Here's a question. Supposing Ricciardo joined Ferrari in 2019 and he beat out Vettel again, how do you suppose Vettel would take it?

Vettel never showed any bad behaviour when losing to Ricciardo in 2014, so there's no reason to believe he would behave badly if it happened again. Doesn't mean he'd be happy abut it, but otherwise I don't see big drama


I agree as long as there wasn't a championship on the line Vettel would deal with it fine. I honestly don't know how he would react with a championship at stake. Remember he didn't have a good relationship with Webber but I think that situation was a little different.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:50 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Here's a question. Supposing Ricciardo joined Ferrari in 2019 and he beat out Vettel again, how do you suppose Vettel would take it?

Vettel never showed any bad behaviour when losing to Ricciardo in 2014, so there's no reason to believe he would behave badly if it happened again. Doesn't mean he'd be happy abut it, but otherwise I don't see big drama


I agree as long as there wasn't a championship on the line Vettel would deal with it fine. I honestly don't know how he would react with a championship at stake. Remember he didn't have a good relationship with Webber but I think that situation was a little different.

True, but I think Webber was more a personal thing and even that was a slow burn over a number of years. I don't see Vettel getting that hot under the collar with a team mate for driving reasons. But, as you say, things are very different with a title on the line


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:32 am 
MasterRacer wrote:
Invade wrote:
Here's a question. Supposing Ricciardo joined Ferrari in 2019 and he beat out Vettel again, how do you suppose Vettel would take it?


Seb is a winner so he wouldn't take it well. But I have no doubt Seb would wipe the floor with Ricciardo. That Red Bull season was a one-off anomaly because of a mixture of incredible bad luck and Seb not getting on with the car for that year.


How did Vettel have incredible bad luck in 2014? In the dry he got out qualified in the region of 12-4, how was that bad luck?

Vettel loves stats and the history of the sport. If Ricciardo joined Ferrari and beat him again it would destroy a lot of his legacy as a great driver. Potentially make him the weakest 3 or more time WDC.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:35 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Here's a question. Supposing Ricciardo joined Ferrari in 2019 and he beat out Vettel again, how do you suppose Vettel would take it?

Vettel never showed any bad behaviour when losing to Ricciardo in 2014, so there's no reason to believe he would behave badly if it happened again. Doesn't mean he'd be happy abut it, but otherwise I don't see big drama


I agree for the most part, although if there was a championship on the line, and both were in contention, I think it might be different.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:10 pm 
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The only real genuine bad blood on the grid is between Alonso and Vettel. Alonso didn't respect Vettel's achievements from 2010-2013, he said on multiple occasions that he was fighting Newey instead of Vettel. There have been several times since Alonso has joined McLaren-Honda where he's ignored blue flags when Vettel came up to lap him. I remember what Vettel said on the radio at Abu Dhabi 2015: "this guy really hates me, I lost a second". Alonso hates Vettel and Vettel is more than aware of it. The latest example was Malaysia a few weeks ago.

Alonso probably feels injustice about 2010 and 2012. He doesn't rate Vettel as highly as Hamilton or himself, so Vettel's career statistics compared to his own is probably a tough pill for him to swallow.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:39 pm 
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Hamilton and Alonso have both done the hard yards in F1 - it's ridiculous that a driver of Alonso's talent has only won 2 titles, whereas only Graham Hill has waited as long as Hamilton did for his 2nd title. Whereas Vettel just showed up in the right car at the right time and won races and titles galore.

Hamilton's move to Mercedes has rectified his personal score vs Vettel; there's obviously more bitterness from Alonso because he'll feel robbed of 2 titles he arguably should have won when he was at his peak.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:52 pm 
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I would argue that Hamilton's career has been easier than Vettel's.

Vettel's career started in 2007, not in 2010.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:53 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
I would argue that Hamilton's career has been easier than Vettel's.

Vettel's career started in 2007, not in 2010.


Car wise maybe but team mate wise not even close.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:51 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Hamilton and Alonso have both done the hard yards in F1 - it's ridiculous that a driver of Alonso's talent has only won 2 titles, whereas only Graham Hill has waited as long as Hamilton did for his 2nd title. Whereas Vettel just showed up in the right car at the right time and won races and titles galore.

Hamilton's move to Mercedes has rectified his personal score vs Vettel; there's obviously more bitterness from Alonso because he'll feel robbed of 2 titles he arguably should have won when he was at his peak.

I think Hamilton's probably the poster boy for showing up in the right car at the right time. Who else has had a title capable car from the word go? I'm not sure he should be begrudged it, though. Good luck to him.

I don't really understand Alonso's contempt for Vettel, but it's pretty plain to see. Hamilton is a bit more subtle about it, but I think he's also not completely enamoured with him. One thing's for sure, these guys know how to hold a grudge!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:29 am 
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Alonso needs to get over it, he still could have won 2007, 2010 and 2012 with slightly different decision making in some races. He also chose the teams he drove for and how he behaved in each one.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:46 pm 
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mas wrote:
Alonso needs to get over it, he still could have won 2007, 2010 and 2012 with slightly different decision making in some races. He also chose the teams he drove for and how he behaved in each one.


I don't think it's a bitterness that he lost, I think it's a bitterness that Vettel is nowhere near one of the greats but managed to rack up numbers which implies he is (I'm portraying my thoughts on Alonso's opinion, not my own opinion).

Of Hamilton racked up a few, or there was a spread of single WDC's, I don't think he'd bother.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:06 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
I'm a bit sceptical, tbh. I seem to recall Hamilton being a bit dismissive of Vettel when the latter was in his championship Red Bulls. A bit like Alonso is now. The cynic in me says bigging Vettel up increases his own achievement in beating him. But I could be being unfair.

I think the Alonso/Hamilton bromance seems fairly genuine. They went head to head and saw how good the other was, so I guess the mutual admiration is real.

I don't think Vettel has any issues with Verstappen, but I think Max bears a grudge from the Ferrari drivers complaining about some of his more dodgy moves last year. I think that's Verstappen's youthful arrogance as much as anything, as in "diss me and you're my enemy."

Hamilton seems to have virtually zero respect for Rosberg. As grudges go, it's a monster! You can practically taste the loathing whenever he speaks of him!

Ricciardo-Verstappen seem to have a pretty strong mutual respect thing going, although I wonder how much longer that will last if Verstappen keeps beating Ricciardo. I think Verstappen already thinks he's much better and it's starting to show in some comments, so that may start rankling

Perez-Ocon? i think they should keep them away from sharp objects...


They are ALL type A personalities - and will only grudgingly admit there are others that are in their same orbit, but being in the same orbit, they will never admit they are 'better'.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:14 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
Hamilton and Alonso have both done the hard yards in F1 - it's ridiculous that a driver of Alonso's talent has only won 2 titles, whereas only Graham Hill has waited as long as Hamilton did for his 2nd title. Whereas Vettel just showed up in the right car at the right time and won races and titles galore.

Hamilton's move to Mercedes has rectified his personal score vs Vettel; there's obviously more bitterness from Alonso because he'll feel robbed of 2 titles he arguably should have won when he was at his peak.

I think Hamilton's probably the poster boy for showing up in the right car at the right time. Who else has had a title capable car from the word go? I'm not sure he should be begrudged it, though. Good luck to him.

I don't really understand Alonso's contempt for Vettel, but it's pretty plain to see. Hamilton is a bit more subtle about it, but I think he's also not completely enamoured with him. One thing's for sure, these guys know how to hold a grudge!

It's not just those two. I've heard comments from Button, Ricciardo, Verstappen and others. I think people who are directly involved in F1 mostly see Vettel as behind the Hamiltons and Alonsos of the world in terms of ability. They think of him as someone who has always been in the right place at the right time. Both Hamilton and Alonso have spent several years in the wrong place. Vettel left Red Bull just in time and arrived at Ferrari just in time (after having previously joined Red Bull at just the right time). Vettel frequently finds himself in a top car and with a relatively weak teammate. It's the best situation possible and he has spent more time in it than any of the others.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:36 am 
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I think the single most poisonous relationship in recent times has to be Hamilton and Rosberg. And I think it's more Hamilton disrespecting Rosberg than vice versa. Nico's WDC last year, and retirement, still really gnaws away at Lewis, as he said after the race today "Obviously each year I could do the easy thing which is stop & retreat like Nico did with these 4 titles, but I think there is more in me". Comments like that, after Nico sent a video congratulations on his 4th WDC, really do him no favours. To me, they make him look petty and vindictive.

Ricciardo and Verstappen: I'm a die hard Danny Ric fan, but I do love the relationship these two have had so far. It may sound trite, but I think Dan loosens Max up a little off the track and Max seems to treat Dan like an older brother. I think the cracks may start to show soon though, if they haven't already, and I'm really hoping they can maintain at least some semblance of friendship through their careers. I'm hoping Dan leaves for greener pastures sooner rather than later, whether it be Ferrari or Mercedes. He's already said he'd love the chance to race against, and measure himself against Lewis, but whether Lewis would go for that, when he has a comfortable No.2 in Bottas, is another thing.

Verstappen and Vettel: Vettel seems like someone who, like Roger Federer in tennis, loves the history of the sport, the records to be broken, the firsts to achieve, and who growing up, has admiration for many drivers over the years. I think he has had respect for people like Schumacher, Sir Jackie Stewart etc, and probably, after 4 WDC's expected a little in return from younger drivers coming through. Max, on the other hand, seems almost disrespectful of the more established drivers on the grid. The kid is prodigiously talented, no doubt, but there's a precocious part to his personality, and an "in-your-face" pushiness that I think a few of the older established drivers possibly dislike, and I actually do too.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:29 am 
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MasterRacer wrote:
But I have no doubt Seb would wipe the floor with Ricciardo. That Red Bull season was a one-off anomaly because of a mixture of incredible bad luck and Seb not getting on with the car for that year.


Garbage.

How is an entire season a "one-off"?

Ricciardo wiped the floor with Sebastian. They had the same cars. They both had reliability issues. Ricciardo won out in both qualifying and race results.

This was coming off one of the most dominant displays in F1 history by Vettel the previous four years. What.. he just forgot how to drive in 2014 then remembered again in 2015?

Ricciardo has got even better since 2014.

I think the reality is the two current Red Bull drivers are far better than anyone seems to be able to accept.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:35 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Hamilton and Alonso have both done the hard yards in F1 - it's ridiculous that a driver of Alonso's talent has only won 2 titles, whereas only Graham Hill has waited as long as Hamilton did for his 2nd title. Whereas Vettel just showed up in the right car at the right time and won races and titles galore.

Hamilton's move to Mercedes has rectified his personal score vs Vettel; there's obviously more bitterness from Alonso because he'll feel robbed of 2 titles he arguably should have won when he was at his peak.



Totally disagree with this. Alonso has done hard yards for sure, especially in the past 4 years.

Hamilton, on the other hand, has never really had a bad car. The McLaren was a great car in 2007 & 2008. It was still a very good car from 2009 - 2012, winning some races - it's just Red Bull & Vettel edged them out.

Hamilton really seemed to struggle when the McLaren wasn't the fastest car, he was even trounced by Button in 2011. This isn't doing "the hard yards".

His time at Mercedes since 2014 has been very, very, very kind to him. It's so interesting to hear Hamilton fans now say Rosberg was a top line driver after 2016, but he was never considered as that before.

I think the reality is Rosberg was good, but not anywhere near the level of say Alonso, Vettel, Verstappen or Ricciardo.

Put one of those drivers in the other Merc. Then Hamilton might have some "hard yards" to do.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:48 am 
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2009 was poor until Germany(?) I think. And he was pretty good during that period. A few stand out drives like Bahrain and Australia.

I don't think he'd struggle much in poorer cars unless he just couldn't be bothered to fight for 8th/9th every weekend type of thing and checked out mentally which I don't think he'd do anyway.

I've read several engineers have praised his ability when the cars haven't been working so well (which was plenty of times between 08-14). Paddy was one I'm sure and maybe Jock Clear.

He's been a jammy dodger when it comes to cars on the whole but there's been several times he's stood out when the car was a bit off. Even during the Turbo era you had Singapore 2015 which was a great effort considering their suspension/tyre issues.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:20 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
Hamilton and Alonso have both done the hard yards in F1 - it's ridiculous that a driver of Alonso's talent has only won 2 titles, whereas only Graham Hill has waited as long as Hamilton did for his 2nd title. Whereas Vettel just showed up in the right car at the right time and won races and titles galore.

Hamilton's move to Mercedes has rectified his personal score vs Vettel; there's obviously more bitterness from Alonso because he'll feel robbed of 2 titles he arguably should have won when he was at his peak.

I think Hamilton's probably the poster boy for showing up in the right car at the right time. Who else has had a title capable car from the word go? I'm not sure he should be begrudged it, though. Good luck to him.

I don't really understand Alonso's contempt for Vettel, but it's pretty plain to see. Hamilton is a bit more subtle about it, but I think he's also not completely enamoured with him. One thing's for sure, these guys know how to hold a grudge!

It's not just those two. I've heard comments from Button, Ricciardo, Verstappen and others. I think people who are directly involved in F1 mostly see Vettel as behind the Hamiltons and Alonsos of the world in terms of ability. They think of him as someone who has always been in the right place at the right time. Both Hamilton and Alonso have spent several years in the wrong place. Vettel left Red Bull just in time and arrived at Ferrari just in time (after having previously joined Red Bull at just the right time). Vettel frequently finds himself in a top car and with a relatively weak teammate. It's the best situation possible and he has spent more time in it than any of the others.


He even got the best ever STR!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:24 am 
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Seb was incredibly gracious in defeat, slowing down after the race to wave/applaud Lewis and accepting Lewis' embrace in the interview pen afterwards as well as outright exclaiming that Lewis was "the better man" this year and "did the better job".

Lewis said to Seb in the interview pen: "Next year, yuhh?"

Let's go again.


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