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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:05 pm 
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Bernie Ecclestone, continuing his vocation as the ultimate stirrer, made quite an explosive 'revelation' if completely accurate.

Obviously, it's come from Bernie, so the veracity is questionable, however he had the following to say:


Bernie wrote:
Helping Ferrari has always been the smartest thing to do and it always has always been done through the technical regulations.

Teams are important for the F1, but Ferrari is the most. That's why over the years, many things have been done that have helped Maranello win.

Max has often helped Ferrari. And I too. We all wanted the Ferrari to win.

A season won by Ferrari is more valuable than a season won by others. But look, teams have an interest in challenging a competitive Ferrari. It is one thing to win against Sauber, but another to win against a red car from Maranello.


It was in this interview with Motorsport where he claims that Mercedes have helped Ferrari improve their engine because of the marketing value in beating Ferrari in an equal duel.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/eccl ... al-971625/


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:13 pm 
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This is old news IMO, pre-Bernie even. Just ask Sir Jack about regulation changes in the 1960's that favoured the red cars, Phil Hill et al.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:18 pm 
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If true that it devalues every Ferrari Grand Prix win. It's a bit like match fixing on a corporate scale.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:22 pm 
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I'm sure Bernie feels great about being forced out.... so every word he speaks is the very best thing for the *sport* in mind.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:26 pm 
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It is typical bernie bullsh1t ... as stated old news and no news.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:30 pm 
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jeffw wrote:
I'm sure Bernie feels great about being forced out.... so every word he speaks is the very best thing for the *sport* in mind.


True, but there will be idiots wanting to believe every word of the imaginary Ferrari International Assistance cr@p. Just ask Jos Verstappen... he tweeted after Max's penalty last week.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:52 pm 
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Well they certainly weren't very good at it for a long period of time when Ferrari went a couple of decades without a championship and are at the 11 year mark of their current drought.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:59 pm 
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I think its obvious that Bernie and the FIA wanted a strong Ferrari, Bernie played a role in getting Schumacher to Ferrari in the first place. F1 as a product is more valuable with a star driver and strong Ferrari car. It makes business sense for all involved.

However, there was a period of time when the FIA/FOM acted to slow Ferrari down too. The rules for 2005 for example was designed to stop them dominating another season. 13 wins in the first 14 races for Schumacher is not good for the show.

The last point about Mercedes helping Ferrari, I don’t see it. The best way for Mercedes to make a season appear to be competitive is just turning their own engines down a bit which I feel they did through 2015 and 2016 at times. 2014 they went all out to show how strong they were but toned it down a bit in the later years and had both cars running in much lower engine modes than they might have been.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:09 pm 
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While the notion of Max/Bernie helping Ferrari has been 'known' for years - I think this is the first time that Bernie has out and out confirmed it unambiguously, which is why I started the thread.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:30 pm 
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I think it's something that has been clear for years so it's nice to have it confirmed.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:36 pm 
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Inappropriate comment removed


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:21 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I think it's something that has been clear for years so it's nice to have it confirmed.


Nothing is "confirmed" when your source is bernie. Why do reasonably smart people ever even listen to him, much less believe him?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:24 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I think it's something that has been clear for years so it's nice to have it confirmed.


Care to give us proof of it being clear? Facts please, not interpretations or how you want it to be.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:31 pm 
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Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think it's something that has been clear for years so it's nice to have it confirmed.


Care to give us proof of it being clear? Facts please, not interpretations or how you want it to be.


Bernie being one of the key people saying it happened is obviously now proof.

That's what I reference in terms of it being confirmed.

Of course we have proof that FOM favours Ferrari. That is well documented and has never been disputed.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:58 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think it's something that has been clear for years so it's nice to have it confirmed.


Care to give us proof of it being clear? Facts please, not interpretations or how you want it to be.


Bernie being one of the key people saying it happened is obviously now proof.

That's what I reference in terms of it being confirmed.

Of course we have proof that FOM favours Ferrari. That is well documented and has never been disputed.


And other teams have benefitted at times as well. Ferrari has also been disadvantaged as well, but lets just ignore those things.

Many of the accusations of FOM favoring Ferrari have indeed been disputed and you know it.

Again.. bernie's credibilty is long in the past... why would you believe anything he says?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:06 pm 
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Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think it's something that has been clear for years so it's nice to have it confirmed.


Care to give us proof of it being clear? Facts please, not interpretations or how you want it to be.


Bernie being one of the key people saying it happened is obviously now proof.

That's what I reference in terms of it being confirmed.

Of course we have proof that FOM favours Ferrari. That is well documented and has never been disputed.


And other teams have benefitted at times as well. Ferrari has also been disadvantaged as well, but lets just ignore those things.

Many of the accusations of FOM favoring Ferrari have indeed been disputed and you know it.

Again.. bernie's credibilty is long in the past... why would you believe anything he says?


I'm pretty sure FOM's payment's to Ferrari are well known and undisputed? They get more than anybody else by a long way so clearly favoured.

Bernie is one of the key people involved. If you're not going to believe him saying it happened what proof would you need to believe it?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:47 pm 
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I don't accept anything bernie says a proof of anything... haven't for many, many years.

Yes, Ferrari has received extra payments, they have been critical to F1's growth and success. Remember too, other teams have also gotten extra payments because, like Ferrari, they bring more money into the sport. Has there been too much of a disparity, perhaps... but bernie didn't just give money away because he loves the Italian team...

The biggest issue I have in this thread is the suggestion that bernies' statement invalidates Ferrari's accomplishments. To me that is [nonsense] I don't believe it was you who said it, Mikey.

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Last edited by Mod Titanium on Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:53 pm 
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So Bernie cut some shady deals and Ferrari have been receiving favours from the sport's governing body?

In other news, the Pope has been revealed to be a Catholic.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:53 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
If true that it devalues every Ferrari Grand Prix win. It's a bit like match fixing on a corporate scale.


What asinine comment.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:53 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
If true that it devalues every Ferrari Grand Prix win. It's a bit like match fixing on a corporate scale.


"Only" the ones during Max-and-Bernie's reign. But those, yes, definitely.

Special veto rights, special in-advance technical regulation change information, biased decisions, financial advantages ...
It gets more and more difficult to deny the obvious.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:38 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
If true that it devalues every Ferrari Grand Prix win. It's a bit like match fixing on a corporate scale.


"Only" the ones during Max-and-Bernie's reign. But those, yes, definitely.

Special veto rights, special in-advance technical regulation change information, biased decisions, financial advantages ...
It gets more and more difficult to deny the obvious.


Care to show us where Ferrari ever used those Veto rights? BTW, Ferrari's veto was also a protection for all the teams as well... the only one the teams had.
Biased decisions in favor of others as well, but don't count those
Care to tell us those "in-advance tech regs change info"

I would have bet monet that this topic would bring you runnin' in.
:lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:51 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
If true that it devalues every Ferrari Grand Prix win. It's a bit like match fixing on a corporate scale.


What asinine comment.


Very fond of using that word aren't you!

Consider it carefully, re-read it if you have to. If its true then Ferrari are getting a head start because the are getting external help. How do you think the great drivers who have driven for Ferrari would feel if it were implied that they only won because they were given outside assistance.

True sportsmen and women want to win it by their own efforts, that is why drug cheats are so despised.

Oh...and before you say that is an asinine comment I am not saying Ferrari are cheating.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:54 pm 
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Over the last years, the evidence of multilevel Ferrari-favoritism in the Max-Bernie-years has become overwhelming, really. You need a diehard fan like Blake to keep living in denial.

Seriously.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:02 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Blake wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
If true that it devalues every Ferrari Grand Prix win. It's a bit like match fixing on a corporate scale.


What asinine comment.


Very fond of using that word aren't you!

Consider it carefully, re-read it if you have to. If its true then Ferrari are getting a head start because the are getting external help. How do you think the great drivers who have driven for Ferrari would feel if it were implied that they only won because they were given outside assistance.

True sportsmen and women want to win it by their own efforts, that is why drug cheats are so despised.

Oh...and before you say that is an asinine comment I am not saying Ferrari are cheating.


My apologies, Option. You did Qualify your comment with"If". I should have read it more carefully. Sorry.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:04 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Over the last years, the evidence of multilevel Ferrari-favoritism in the Max-Bernie-years has become overwhelming, really. You need a diehard fan like Blake to keep living in denial.

Seriously.


As opposed to you? About the only time you show up here is to criticize Ferrari, Vettel or both.
:nod:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:10 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
If true that it devalues every Ferrari Grand Prix win. It's a bit like match fixing on a corporate scale.


"Only" the ones during Max-and-Bernie's reign. But those, yes, definitely.

Special veto rights, special in-advance technical regulation change information, biased decisions, financial advantages ...
It gets more and more difficult to deny the obvious.


Care to show us where Ferrari ever used those Veto rights? BTW, Ferrari's veto was also a protection for all the teams as well... the only one the teams had.
Biased decisions in favor of others as well, but don't count those
Care to tell us those "in-advance tech regs change info"

I would have bet monet that this topic would bring you runnin' in.
:lol:

http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one ... veto-power
Quote:
In October, the FIA distributed a press release revealing that it had agreed with F1’s commercial rights holder, Formula One Management, to set a limit on the price of customer engines and gear boxes supplied to third-party teams. The engines alone cost around $20 million annually, but the FIA and FOM’s boss Bernie Ecclestone wanted to reduce the price to around $13 million. The current high price fueled the collapse of Caterham and Marussia last year, with Renault and Ferrari respectively being two of their largest creditors.

However, although the Strategy Group voted in favor of a cap on the engine price, Ferrari didn’t let it call the shots. The FIA’s press release added that “Ferrari SpA decided to go against this and exercise the right of veto long recognised under agreements governing F1.”

Some "protection for all the teams" that is...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:13 pm 
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It doesn't take genius to see where this thread is going to go...

I suspect it would be best for the forum, and my blood pressure, to try to ignore it for now. Have at all.

Ciao

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:17 pm 
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j man wrote:
Blake wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
If true that it devalues every Ferrari Grand Prix win. It's a bit like match fixing on a corporate scale.


"Only" the ones during Max-and-Bernie's reign. But those, yes, definitely.

Special veto rights, special in-advance technical regulation change information, biased decisions, financial advantages ...
It gets more and more difficult to deny the obvious.


Care to show us where Ferrari ever used those Veto rights? BTW, Ferrari's veto was also a protection for all the teams as well... the only one the teams had.
Biased decisions in favor of others as well, but don't count those
Care to tell us those "in-advance tech regs change info"

I would have bet monet that this topic would bring you runnin' in.
:lol:

http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one ... veto-power
Quote:
In October, the FIA distributed a press release revealing that it had agreed with F1’s commercial rights holder, Formula One Management, to set a limit on the price of customer engines and gear boxes supplied to third-party teams. The engines alone cost around $20 million annually, but the FIA and FOM’s boss Bernie Ecclestone wanted to reduce the price to around $13 million. The current high price fueled the collapse of Caterham and Marussia last year, with Renault and Ferrari respectively being two of their largest creditors.

However, although the Strategy Group voted in favor of a cap on the engine price, Ferrari didn’t let it call the shots. The FIA’s press release added that “Ferrari SpA decided to go against this and exercise the right of veto long recognised under agreements governing F1.”

Some "protection for all the teams" that is...


You are right. . I had forgotten that they used it then. Something about engine manufacturers not wanting to be forced to sell their engines at a loss. I believe that is the only time that they used it and it was not only to benefit Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:41 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Over the last years, the evidence of multilevel Ferrari-favoritism in the Max-Bernie-years has become overwhelming, really. You need a diehard fan like Blake to keep living in denial.

Seriously.


As opposed to you? About the only time you show up here is to criticize Ferrari, Vettel or both.
:nod:


This is evidently a lie and you know it.
Getting desperate?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:09 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think it's something that has been clear for years so it's nice to have it confirmed.


Care to give us proof of it being clear? Facts please, not interpretations or how you want it to be.


Bernie being one of the key people saying it happened is obviously now proof.

That's what I reference in terms of it being confirmed.

Of course we have proof that FOM favours Ferrari. That is well documented and has never been disputed.

No this is how it works, Ferrari themselves have to confirm it.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:33 am 
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Not surprised.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:04 am 
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I think lot of people are getting it wrong.

Obviously FOM favours Ferrari. They are biggest brand and pull in more fans and money and track owners than anyone else. Period.
But FIA hasn't shown any Ferrari favoritism in long long time.

And Ferrari themselves hasn't demanded any. They demand they get financial returns for the money and fans they bring to the sport and that is capitalism 1-0-1.

In fact as far as regulations are concerned, Ferrari has sacrified performance and put themselves on backfoot to avoid bringing race results and sport into dispute multiple time in post Schumacher era.
They withdrew their protest of Double diffuser then illegal floor to stop Monaco race result being called into dispute. They withdrew their objection and potential mid season ban on exhaust blown diffuser even after witnessing clear advantage with it being banned in silverstone to avoid counter protest and legal dispute during that era. For all its worth, Ferrari has done everything they can to avoid any controversy over regulations. They have lost close championships during that era because of some of these decision.

They could have vetoed these current engines as well. (Irony isnt it?) But they didnt. Again to ensure more teams are racing in F1.

Lot of jealousy and twisted perception of favoritism towards Ferrari comes from their financial clout of sport. But lets face it, barring McLaren and now very few dedicated Williams fans, nobody can come close to what Ferrari brings to the sport. Even McLaren will be distant second in this regard.
As far as regulations are concerned, no there is no evidence of any favoritism to Ferrari in more than a decade.

With or without team winning championships, Ferrari has managed to keep and increase their fan base. They would obviously love to win championships but they dont need to to ensure F1 stays alive. They just need to compete, and their loyal fans will support them regardless.

As far as Mercedes helping Ferrari......................ROFL.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:42 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
Obviously FOM favours Ferrari. They are biggest brand and pull in more fans and money and track owners than anyone else. Period.
But FIA hasn't shown any Ferrari favoritism in long long time.

And Ferrari themselves hasn't demanded any. They demand they get financial returns for the money and fans they bring to the sport and that is capitalism 1-0-1.


This is one thing that I disagree with. Ferrari essentially gets paid for existing and participating in the sport. Obviously they are an important part of F1 lore and it's hard to imagine the grid without the red cars, but I would be in favor of doing away with any special treatment. In terms of economics, Ferrari already get the benefit of being the most popular brand. Surely they are making tons of money from selling merchandise and licensing fees, far above any other team besides McLaren perhaps.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:06 pm 
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The OP is about FIA/FOM helping Ferrari through the technical regulations (in addition to the financial advantages).


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:10 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
The OP is about FIA/FOM helping Ferrari through the technical regulations


... which isn't happening.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:08 pm 
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SmoothRide wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
The OP is about FIA/FOM helping Ferrari through the technical regulations


... which isn't happening.


Not anymore that we know of, but Bernie is clearly insinuating that this was happening on Moseley's watch, and there certainly were some 'interesting' calls on the legality of certain items on cars back then. Ross Brawn getting angry at the others giggling behind him like school kids in that press conference after the Michelin tyre nonsense is a personal favourite memory of mine.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:18 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
The OP is about FIA/FOM helping Ferrari through the technical regulations


... which isn't happening.


Not anymore that we know of, but Bernie is clearly insinuating that this was happening on Moseley's watch, and there certainly were some 'interesting' calls on the legality of certain items on cars back then. Ross Brawn getting angry at the others giggling behind him like school kids in that press conference after the Michelin tyre nonsense is a personal favourite memory of mine.

It's almost as if Bernie is struggling to deal with the fact he's an irrelevance and is making stuff up for attention.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:47 pm 
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SmoothRide wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
The OP is about FIA/FOM helping Ferrari through the technical regulations


... which isn't happening.


It was happening - in the era when Max Mosley was FIA president. That is the claim by Ecclestone - and he should know.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:47 pm 
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Yeah... the WHOLE truth by bernie.. now that is a "gospel" you can bank on... as long as it fits one's purpose. We all know that bernie always tells the truth, never leaves anything out, never "spins" thing, never seeks attention with ****-stirring comments.

:uhoh:

Mod Edit: Swear filter bypass removed

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:29 pm 
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I find it amusing how people always hated Bernie with a passion and they never believed anything uttered from his mouth but suddenly his word is the absolute truth only because they hate Ferrari more than him.


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