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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:27 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
People are seriously underestimating Ricciardo in this thread.

I think I can agree there. In all areas about both drivers, I still don't consider Verstappen to be better. I'm gonna get shouted at for this :lol:

I now don't think Ricciardo's luck has been much better than Verstappen's this season. Nothing like it was in the first half. They have now both had 4 retirements down to reliability problems. Verstappen has had 3 other retirements down to bad luck but at leased one of these was partly down to a very risky move. Ricciardo has had one retirement not down to reliability, but that was his team mate taking him out. So it looks like Ricciardo has had better luck, but he's only had 2 less retirements than Verstappen. And he's retired in both of the last 2 races when Red Bull have looked by far at their strongest over the year over the past few races. On the whole, I really can't say Verstappen has been a lot more unlucky now. But Verstappen cost his team mate in Hungary and messed up his own race and cost himself a better points finish by taking an unnecessary risk in Italy. Ricciardo just keeps out of trouble in these areas. I also personally think Ricciardo's overtakes are better.

Verstappen no doubt has quicker 1 lap pace. But he seems to make mistakes more often and because of how often this has happened, I still can't say Ricciardo is being dominated by Verstappen as some seem to be saying. I think that overall, they are very even. Just better and worse than each other in different areas.


Don't forget Verstappen retired in Azerbaijan when well ahead of Ricciardo. Ricciardo wouldn't have won either of the last two races but Verstappen may well have won Azerbaijan and could have won Singapore as well. In terms of luck I would guess that Ricciardo is still a lot better off.

I assume you are meaning well ahead just because he qualified ahead in 5th compared to Ricciardo in 10th. Ricciardo was only a really long way behind because he had to box on lap 6 with problems with the air intake I think. When Verstappen retired, that will have been the main reason why Ricciardo was so far behind. If it wasn't for that, maybe he will have only just been behind Verstappen? Until he had to pit, he was maintaining a similar gap and Verstappen was hardly pulling away. There were just several cars between them due to his performance in qualifying.


Yes but the point is that had Verstappen not retired then (assuming he didn't crash) he would have won instead of Ricciardo. So i think it's false to say Ricciardo has retired from races where better results were possible.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:34 pm 
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
People are seriously underestimating Ricciardo in this thread.

I think I can agree there. In all areas about both drivers, I still don't consider Verstappen to be better. I'm gonna get shouted at for this :lol:

I now don't think Ricciardo's luck has been much better than Verstappen's this season. Nothing like it was in the first half. They have now both had 4 retirements down to reliability problems. Verstappen has had 3 other retirements down to bad luck but at leased one of these was partly down to a very risky move. Ricciardo has had one retirement not down to reliability, but that was his team mate taking him out. So it looks like Ricciardo has had better luck, but he's only had 2 less retirements than Verstappen. And he's retired in both of the last 2 races when Red Bull have looked by far at their strongest over the year over the past few races. On the whole, I really can't say Verstappen has been a lot more unlucky now. But Verstappen cost his team mate in Hungary and messed up his own race and cost himself a better points finish by taking an unnecessary risk in Italy. Ricciardo just keeps out of trouble in these areas. I also personally think Ricciardo's overtakes are better.

Verstappen no doubt has quicker 1 lap pace. But he seems to make mistakes more often and because of how often this has happened, I still can't say Ricciardo is being dominated by Verstappen as some seem to be saying. I think that overall, they are very even. Just better and worse than each other in different areas.


Don't forget Verstappen retired in Azerbaijan when well ahead of Ricciardo. Ricciardo wouldn't have won either of the last two races but Verstappen may well have won Azerbaijan and could have won Singapore as well. In terms of luck I would guess that Ricciardo is still a lot better off.

I assume you are meaning well ahead just because he qualified ahead in 5th compared to Ricciardo in 10th. Ricciardo was only a really long way behind because he had to box on lap 6 with problems with the air intake I think. When Verstappen retired, that will have been the main reason why Ricciardo was so far behind. If it wasn't for that, maybe he will have only just been behind Verstappen? Until he had to pit, he was maintaining a similar gap and Verstappen was hardly pulling away. There were just several cars between them due to his performance in qualifying.


Just going by the numbers, but Ricciardo (probbaly in traffic) dropped 4.3 seconds behind Verstappen in 3 laps and was a 8.7 behind Max once he pitted at the end of lap 4.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... Verstappen

The gap between Verstappen and Ricciardo seems to be around the gap between Hamilton and Rosberg for me. Although Ricciardo has superior experience and is better at calculating risk-reward. I only seen Verstappen improving in those areas and getting stronger and stronger.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:07 pm 
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Max is fast enough to run with Hamilton and Vettel. He had by far the least to lose if it became a game of driving dodgem cars. Max also seems to have studied the art of contacting other cars.

It may be interesting next year in terms of the amount of contact that will be taking place.

It could be considered skilled driving and if it succeeds and is allowed, then anyone who wants to win will have to adopt the same tactics (if they and their car have the necessary speed to be able to get involved).

It could also result in injuries.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:22 pm 
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Detailed Analysis of Verstappen, Vettel & Hamilton Collisions - Mexican GP 2017 by Driver61


Not watched it yet - watching now.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:27 pm 
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Solid enough but misses what we suppose in this thread was contact between Lewis' front wing and Max's left rear.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:38 pm 
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lamo wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
People are seriously underestimating Ricciardo in this thread.

I think I can agree there. In all areas about both drivers, I still don't consider Verstappen to be better. I'm gonna get shouted at for this :lol:

I now don't think Ricciardo's luck has been much better than Verstappen's this season. Nothing like it was in the first half. They have now both had 4 retirements down to reliability problems. Verstappen has had 3 other retirements down to bad luck but at leased one of these was partly down to a very risky move. Ricciardo has had one retirement not down to reliability, but that was his team mate taking him out. So it looks like Ricciardo has had better luck, but he's only had 2 less retirements than Verstappen. And he's retired in both of the last 2 races when Red Bull have looked by far at their strongest over the year over the past few races. On the whole, I really can't say Verstappen has been a lot more unlucky now. But Verstappen cost his team mate in Hungary and messed up his own race and cost himself a better points finish by taking an unnecessary risk in Italy. Ricciardo just keeps out of trouble in these areas. I also personally think Ricciardo's overtakes are better.

Verstappen no doubt has quicker 1 lap pace. But he seems to make mistakes more often and because of how often this has happened, I still can't say Ricciardo is being dominated by Verstappen as some seem to be saying. I think that overall, they are very even. Just better and worse than each other in different areas.


Don't forget Verstappen retired in Azerbaijan when well ahead of Ricciardo. Ricciardo wouldn't have won either of the last two races but Verstappen may well have won Azerbaijan and could have won Singapore as well. In terms of luck I would guess that Ricciardo is still a lot better off.

I assume you are meaning well ahead just because he qualified ahead in 5th compared to Ricciardo in 10th. Ricciardo was only a really long way behind because he had to box on lap 6 with problems with the air intake I think. When Verstappen retired, that will have been the main reason why Ricciardo was so far behind. If it wasn't for that, maybe he will have only just been behind Verstappen? Until he had to pit, he was maintaining a similar gap and Verstappen was hardly pulling away. There were just several cars between them due to his performance in qualifying.


Just going by the numbers, but Ricciardo (probbaly in traffic) dropped 4.3 seconds behind Verstappen in 3 laps and was a 8.7 behind Max once he pitted at the end of lap 4.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... Verstappen

The gap between Verstappen and Ricciardo seems to be around the gap between Hamilton and Rosberg for me. Although Ricciardo has superior experience and is better at calculating risk-reward. I only seen Verstappen improving in those areas and getting stronger and stronger.


I have recorded every race this year and when I look back, I don't know where your are getting that Ricciardo pitted at the end of lap 4. On my video, he comes in just as Hamilton starts his 6th lap. And maybe he lost time that lap as he had problems with his air intake? I thought that was the only reason he had to be boxed. Other than that, I did think it was mainly traffic making his gap increase. I was wrong about him maintaining it, but I still can't say we know that he couldn't have matched or beaten Verstappen if he hadn't had this fault with his car. We just don't know. Maybe it wasn't a fault. But I think something got caught in some duct or something that caused overheating.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:54 pm 
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I think it's fair to say it's unlikely Ricciardo would have overtaken Verstappen? All my point was that you can't say Ricciardo has had his misfortune when he could have scored more points as Verstappen himself has lost possible wins.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:24 pm 
Sorry he pitted at the end of lap 5... but the point still stands he was not keeping up with Verstappen.
After the first lap justling, he was 1.1, 2.1, 1.6 seconds slower than Verstappen on laps 2,3 and 4.

As far as I am aware, Ricciardo has never overtaken Verstappen the entire time they have been team mates. Max was also quicker than him all weekend. Safe to say Max had him well beaten that race, he was dropping him at 1.5 seconds per lap.

They weren't in the same race that day. Dan won, because 8 of the 9 cars that started ahead of him had some kind of issue. Lance Stroll being the only one who didn't. Hence why Dan and Stroll were 1-2 until the very last seconds of the race before a recovering Bottas overtook him.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:35 am 
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lamo wrote:
Sorry he pitted at the end of lap 5... but the point still stands he was not keeping up with Verstappen.
After the first lap justling, he was 1.1, 2.1, 1.6 seconds slower than Verstappen on laps 2,3 and 4.

As far as I am aware, Ricciardo has never overtaken Verstappen the entire time they have been team mates. Max was also quicker than him all weekend. Safe to say Max had him well beaten that race, he was dropping him at 1.5 seconds per lap.

They weren't in the same race that day. Dan won, because 8 of the 9 cars that started ahead of him had some kind of issue. Lance Stroll being the only one who didn't. Hence why Dan and Stroll were 1-2 until the very last seconds of the race before a recovering Bottas overtook him.

BIB, Malaysia 16?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:58 am 
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babararacucudada wrote:
Max is fast enough to run with Hamilton and Vettel. He had by far the least to lose if it became a game of driving dodgem cars. Max also seems to have studied the art of contacting other cars.

It may be interesting next year in terms of the amount of contact that will be taking place.

It could be considered skilled driving and if it succeeds and is allowed, then anyone who wants to win will have to adopt the same tactics (if they and their car have the necessary speed to be able to get involved).

It could also result in injuries.


I beg to differ. You seem to depict a situation where you've got two sides : Verstappen (with crashy tactics) and the rest of the field. That is plain wrong.
I don't know how you can say a such thing as Verstappen being the one with he most contacts where most of his were not his fault. I mean, he's being aggressive and opportunist and the major down of this kind of driving is being exposed to mistakes made by his opponents, like in Spain or Austria.
This whole situation of criticising him for his start in Mexico is weird as Alonso drove the same way with Lewis at the end.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:50 am 
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I do think there is some (a lot of) truth in the fact that the FIA seemed to have encouraged contact between competitiors.

Earlier in the year we had Vettel effictively using his car as a weapon and yet in the interview afterwards said: "F1 is for grown-ups." Yet driving into a title rival on purpose did not even get a disqualification. In fact the FIA only called a meeting in Paris once everyone questioned how the penalty should be so lenient.

There is of course a long history of collisions between championship contending drivers. 1989, 1990, 1994, 1997 are all years that have had championship deciding collisions. Senna admitted the 1990 collision was caused by him on purpose yet he never received any punishment for it. In 1997 the stewards declared the incident "a racing incident" (laughable that they could think that) although Schumacher was eventually disqualified from his runners-up position in the championship although he kept his wins and points. A meaningless punishment as Schumacher had already lost the championship anyway.

1995, 2010, 2014 and 2016 have also had collisions between championship contending drivers although in those years the collisions did not decide the championship. 1998 had a collision between a championship contender and a teammate of the championship contender. In all these cases no punishment was given to any driver.

We can now add 2017 to a championship deciding collisions year. It is unsatisfactory to see the championship being decided in a collision. This was Vettel's fault though not Hamilton's and Hamilton deserved the championship but nevertheless it still remains unsatisfactory for the championship to be decided in this way.

Someone said earlier in the thread that if the title race went to Brazil all Lewis Hamilton has to do is to ram into Vettel and job done. No arguments. Unfortunately it does seem as though this would have been a valid strategy if the title had gone to Brazil. That can't be right.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:03 pm 
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Davidbl wrote:
I do think there is some (a lot of) truth in the fact that the FIA seemed to have encouraged contact between competitiors.

Earlier in the year we had Vettel effictively using his car as a weapon and yet in the interview afterwards said: "F1 is for grown-ups." Yet driving into a title rival on purpose did not even get a disqualification. In fact the FIA only called a meeting in Paris once everyone questioned how the penalty should be so lenient.

There is of course a long history of collisions between championship contending drivers. 1989, 1990, 1994, 1997 are all years that have had championship deciding collisions. Senna admitted the 1990 collision was caused by him on purpose yet he never received any punishment for it. In 1997 the stewards declared the incident "a racing incident" (laughable that they could think that) although Schumacher was eventually disqualified from his runners-up position in the championship although he kept his wins and points. A meaningless punishment as Schumacher had already lost the championship anyway.

1995, 2010, 2014 and 2016 have also had collisions between championship contending drivers although in those years the collisions did not decide the championship. 1998 had a collision between a championship contender and a teammate of the championship contender. In all these cases no punishment was given to any driver.

We can now add 2017 to a championship deciding collisions year. It is unsatisfactory to see the championship being decided in a collision. This was Vettel's fault though not Hamilton's and Hamilton deserved the championship but nevertheless it still remains unsatisfactory for the championship to be decided in this way.

Someone said earlier in the thread that if the title race went to Brazil all Lewis Hamilton has to do is to ram into Vettel and job done. No arguments. Unfortunately it does seem as though this would have been a valid strategy if the title had gone to Brazil. That can't be right.

Why go all the way to Brazil, Hamilton could have crashed Vettel out in Mexico but he didn't, regarding crashing in general there can be little sympathy for over aggressive driving but often we see the unlucky card used.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:28 pm 
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SDLRob wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
SDLRob wrote:
Really cannot see Vettel getting 2nd.... title race over

In no just world does Vettel keep the title fight alive. Baku showed his dark side, Singapore and Mexico his foolishness.


Yeah... I agree with that

And when the post mortem is done the impacts of the decisions made in the cockpit during those races must be measured and quantified in terms of their impact to Ferrari's WCC and WDC hopes. I can't stress this enough as it is often the little things that have the biggest impact.

It's quite possible Seb could have broken Hamilton's will if he were more successful where has getting flustered and pi$$ing away a win simply let Lewis know you can be flustered...and perhaps have some issues to work through. Perhaps he can spend some time with Grosjean's watch and chain guy.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:46 pm 
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I've just seen what Grosjean was penalised for.

He's turned into an absolute joke of a driver this season.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:48 am 
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robins13 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Sorry he pitted at the end of lap 5... but the point still stands he was not keeping up with Verstappen.
After the first lap justling, he was 1.1, 2.1, 1.6 seconds slower than Verstappen on laps 2,3 and 4.

As far as I am aware, Ricciardo has never overtaken Verstappen the entire time they have been team mates. Max was also quicker than him all weekend. Safe to say Max had him well beaten that race, he was dropping him at 1.5 seconds per lap.

They weren't in the same race that day. Dan won, because 8 of the 9 cars that started ahead of him had some kind of issue. Lance Stroll being the only one who didn't. Hence why Dan and Stroll were 1-2 until the very last seconds of the race before a recovering Bottas overtook him.

BIB, Malaysia 16?


He was about to in Hungary as well before the incident. And he pitted in Baku because he had a blockage so comparing the pace is a little unfair.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:54 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
I've just seen what Grosjean was penalised for.

He's turned into an absolute joke of a driver this season.

What did he do?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:16 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
I've just seen what Grosjean was penalised for.

He's turned into an absolute joke of a driver this season.


In my opinion, his penalty is a joke. Drivers nowadays have the habit to squeeze the overtaken car out of the track, which is ridiculous.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:51 pm 
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Fantaribo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
I've just seen what Grosjean was penalised for.

He's turned into an absolute joke of a driver this season.


In my opinion, his penalty is a joke. Drivers nowadays have the habit to squeeze the overtaken car out of the track, which is ridiculous.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlSq_R2a7t4

But in this case Alonso wasn't doing that? Grosjean was nowhere near the edge of track when he decided to go full on the throttle and jump a vast section of track. It was a very deliberate attempt to cheat because cutting the corner at all was unnecessary. I 5 second penalty was way to lenient he probably gained close to that if you consider he would have lost time with Alonso passing him.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:47 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
I've just seen what Grosjean was penalised for.

He's turned into an absolute joke of a driver this season.


In my opinion, his penalty is a joke. Drivers nowadays have the habit to squeeze the overtaken car out of the track, which is ridiculous.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlSq_R2a7t4

But in this case Alonso wasn't doing that? Grosjean was nowhere near the edge of track when he decided to go full on the throttle and jump a vast section of track. It was a very deliberate attempt to cheat because cutting the corner at all was unnecessary. I 5 second penalty was way to lenient he probably gained close to that if you consider he would have lost time with Alonso passing him.

First of all did Grosjean need to go off the track, secondly slam dunk penalty.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:13 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
I've just seen what Grosjean was penalised for.

He's turned into an absolute joke of a driver this season.


In my opinion, his penalty is a joke. Drivers nowadays have the habit to squeeze the overtaken car out of the track, which is ridiculous.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlSq_R2a7t4

But in this case Alonso wasn't doing that? Grosjean was nowhere near the edge of track when he decided to go full on the throttle and jump a vast section of track. It was a very deliberate attempt to cheat because cutting the corner at all was unnecessary. I 5 second penalty was way to lenient he probably gained close to that if you consider he would have lost time with Alonso passing him.

It's 100% a penalty and I hate this kind of thing from Grosjean. He is not a rookie anymore and he should know better.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:01 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
I've just seen what Grosjean was penalised for.

He's turned into an absolute joke of a driver this season.


In my opinion, his penalty is a joke. Drivers nowadays have the habit to squeeze the overtaken car out of the track, which is ridiculous.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlSq_R2a7t4

But in this case Alonso wasn't doing that? Grosjean was nowhere near the edge of track when he decided to go full on the throttle and jump a vast section of track. It was a very deliberate attempt to cheat because cutting the corner at all was unnecessary. I 5 second penalty was way to lenient he probably gained close to that if you consider he would have lost time with Alonso passing him.

First of all did Grosjean need to go off the track, secondly slam dunk penalty.


What makes it worse is that it was actually one of the increasingly rare occasions where the attacking driver left loads of room. With the right hander coming up Grosjean would have probably even held position if he remained on track.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:38 pm 
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Fantaribo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
I've just seen what Grosjean was penalised for.

He's turned into an absolute joke of a driver this season.


In my opinion, his penalty is a joke. Drivers nowadays have the habit to squeeze the overtaken car out of the track, which is ridiculous.

Alonso hits the apex perfectly and takes the racing line for the corner, you'd be as well banning overtaking if you're going to outlaw that.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:40 pm 
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Did Grosjean also get in front of the FI? Did he get to keep that position?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:22 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
I've just seen what Grosjean was penalised for.

He's turned into an absolute joke of a driver this season.


In my opinion, his penalty is a joke. Drivers nowadays have the habit to squeeze the overtaken car out of the track, which is ridiculous.

Alonso hits the apex perfectly and takes the racing line for the corner, you'd be as well banning overtaking if you're going to outlaw that.
I know this is supposed to have been clarified after Belgium or Italy, but as far as I can tell, no rule allowing this was mentioned. In Whiting's explanation, being ahead at the apex is supposed to convey the right to remain on the racing line. I can't say I can spot the relevant rule in the regulations.Perhaps somebody else can?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:47 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
I've just seen what Grosjean was penalised for.

He's turned into an absolute joke of a driver this season.


In my opinion, his penalty is a joke. Drivers nowadays have the habit to squeeze the overtaken car out of the track, which is ridiculous.

Alonso hits the apex perfectly and takes the racing line for the corner, you'd be as well banning overtaking if you're going to outlaw that.
I know this is supposed to have been clarified after Belgium or Italy, but as far as I can tell, no rule allowing this was mentioned. In Whiting's explanation, being ahead at the apex is supposed to convey the right to remain on the racing line. I can't say I can spot the relevant rule in the regulations.Perhaps somebody else can?


What rule did Alonso break?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:58 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
I've just seen what Grosjean was penalised for.

He's turned into an absolute joke of a driver this season.


In my opinion, his penalty is a joke. Drivers nowadays have the habit to squeeze the overtaken car out of the track, which is ridiculous.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlSq_R2a7t4

But in this case Alonso wasn't doing that? Grosjean was nowhere near the edge of track when he decided to go full on the throttle and jump a vast section of track. It was a very deliberate attempt to cheat because cutting the corner at all was unnecessary. I 5 second penalty was way to lenient he probably gained close to that if you consider he would have lost time with Alonso passing him.

First of all did Grosjean need to go off the track, secondly slam dunk penalty.


What makes it worse is that it was actually one of the increasingly rare occasions where the attacking driver left loads of room. With the right hander coming up Grosjean would have probably even held position if he remained on track.

Maybe that's the problem, the attacking driver these days usually doesn't leave any room and Grosjean just assumed Alonso would run him off the road. Should've given the place back of course.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:25 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
I've just seen what Grosjean was penalised for.

He's turned into an absolute joke of a driver this season.


In my opinion, his penalty is a joke. Drivers nowadays have the habit to squeeze the overtaken car out of the track, which is ridiculous.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlSq_R2a7t4

But in this case Alonso wasn't doing that? Grosjean was nowhere near the edge of track when he decided to go full on the throttle and jump a vast section of track. It was a very deliberate attempt to cheat because cutting the corner at all was unnecessary. I 5 second penalty was way to lenient he probably gained close to that if you consider he would have lost time with Alonso passing him.

It's 100% a penalty and I hate this kind of thing from Grosjean. He is not a rookie anymore and he should know better.

This youtube video (recreated in a video game ??) is ridiculous. Here is the real onboard, from the official F1 youtube channel : https://youtu.be/-j1Dia_B_S4?t=1m42s

Image

I'm assuming this screenshot invalidates most of the posts above mine.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:33 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
I've just seen what Grosjean was penalised for.

He's turned into an absolute joke of a driver this season.


In my opinion, his penalty is a joke. Drivers nowadays have the habit to squeeze the overtaken car out of the track, which is ridiculous.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlSq_R2a7t4

But in this case Alonso wasn't doing that? Grosjean was nowhere near the edge of track when he decided to go full on the throttle and jump a vast section of track. It was a very deliberate attempt to cheat because cutting the corner at all was unnecessary. I 5 second penalty was way to lenient he probably gained close to that if you consider he would have lost time with Alonso passing him.


Wait... You're using a F1 2017 game recreation as evidence?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:35 am 
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Herb wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
I've just seen what Grosjean was penalised for.

He's turned into an absolute joke of a driver this season.


In my opinion, his penalty is a joke. Drivers nowadays have the habit to squeeze the overtaken car out of the track, which is ridiculous.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlSq_R2a7t4

But in this case Alonso wasn't doing that? Grosjean was nowhere near the edge of track when he decided to go full on the throttle and jump a vast section of track. It was a very deliberate attempt to cheat because cutting the corner at all was unnecessary. I 5 second penalty was way to lenient he probably gained close to that if you consider he would have lost time with Alonso passing him.


Wait... You're using a F1 2017 game recreation as evidence?


:blush: :blush: :blush:

TBF I was looking at it on my phone and it took a lot of people to look at it before it was picked up.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:55 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
I've just seen what Grosjean was penalised for.

He's turned into an absolute joke of a driver this season.


In my opinion, his penalty is a joke. Drivers nowadays have the habit to squeeze the overtaken car out of the track, which is ridiculous.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlSq_R2a7t4

But in this case Alonso wasn't doing that? Grosjean was nowhere near the edge of track when he decided to go full on the throttle and jump a vast section of track. It was a very deliberate attempt to cheat because cutting the corner at all was unnecessary. I 5 second penalty was way to lenient he probably gained close to that if you consider he would have lost time with Alonso passing him.


Wait... You're using a F1 2017 game recreation as evidence?


:blush: :blush: :blush:

TBF I was looking at it on my phone and it took a lot of people to look at it before it was picked up.


Haha, don't worry. I see fantaribo beat me to it too. Should have read to the end of the thread!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:11 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
I've just seen what Grosjean was penalised for.

He's turned into an absolute joke of a driver this season.


In my opinion, his penalty is a joke. Drivers nowadays have the habit to squeeze the overtaken car out of the track, which is ridiculous.

Alonso hits the apex perfectly and takes the racing line for the corner, you'd be as well banning overtaking if you're going to outlaw that.
I know this is supposed to have been clarified after Belgium or Italy, but as far as I can tell, no rule allowing this was mentioned. In Whiting's explanation, being ahead at the apex is supposed to convey the right to remain on the racing line. I can't say I can spot the relevant rule in the regulations.Perhaps somebody else can?


What rule did Alonso break?
How about this one?
Quote:
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.


While Alonso did overtake Grosjean, shouldn't there be a penalty for deliberately running Grosjean off the track? When Alonso overtook Grosjean again later, he again ran him off the track, inflicting damage on Grosjean's car as he did so. This time, Grosjean was unable to cut across the corner, as there were sleeping policemen installed in turn 1.

I'm all for good racing, but running competitors off the track is supposed to be illegal. Also, it's all good and well to be ahead at the apex, but the driver dropping behind is not yet behind. Not being given space and time to drop behind will one day result in a serious accident. After which some of the culprits will go crying to race control.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:36 pm 
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Fantaribo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
I've just seen what Grosjean was penalised for.

He's turned into an absolute joke of a driver this season.


In my opinion, his penalty is a joke. Drivers nowadays have the habit to squeeze the overtaken car out of the track, which is ridiculous.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlSq_R2a7t4

But in this case Alonso wasn't doing that? Grosjean was nowhere near the edge of track when he decided to go full on the throttle and jump a vast section of track. It was a very deliberate attempt to cheat because cutting the corner at all was unnecessary. I 5 second penalty was way to lenient he probably gained close to that if you consider he would have lost time with Alonso passing him.

It's 100% a penalty and I hate this kind of thing from Grosjean. He is not a rookie anymore and he should know better.

This youtube video (recreated in a video game ??) is ridiculous. Here is the real onboard, from the official F1 youtube channel : https://youtu.be/-j1Dia_B_S4?t=1m42s

Image

I'm assuming this screenshot invalidates most of the posts above mine.


I have to agree. Alonso left him no room at all, and actually touched Grosjean's car too. This is a pretty similar incident to Ricciardo and Bottas at COTA. Grosjean had no other option but to leave the track or back out of it completely, and noone does the latter.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:02 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
I have to agree. Alonso left him no room at all, and actually touched Grosjean's car too. This is a pretty similar incident to Ricciardo and Bottas at COTA. Grosjean had no other option but to leave the track or back out of it completely, and noone does the latter.
I would drop that last bit. A driver must be given the opportunity to back out. I'm inclined to say Grosjean wasn't given that opportunity in either case.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:14 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:

In my opinion, his penalty is a joke. Drivers nowadays have the habit to squeeze the overtaken car out of the track, which is ridiculous.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlSq_R2a7t4

But in this case Alonso wasn't doing that? Grosjean was nowhere near the edge of track when he decided to go full on the throttle and jump a vast section of track. It was a very deliberate attempt to cheat because cutting the corner at all was unnecessary. I 5 second penalty was way to lenient he probably gained close to that if you consider he would have lost time with Alonso passing him.

It's 100% a penalty and I hate this kind of thing from Grosjean. He is not a rookie anymore and he should know better.

This youtube video (recreated in a video game ??) is ridiculous. Here is the real onboard, from the official F1 youtube channel : https://youtu.be/-j1Dia_B_S4?t=1m42s

Image

I'm assuming this screenshot invalidates most of the posts above mine.


I have to agree. Alonso left him no room at all, and actually touched Grosjean's car too. This is a pretty similar incident to Ricciardo and Bottas at COTA. Grosjean had no other option but to leave the track or back out of it completely, and noone does the latter.

No you have to watch the overtake in motion. Alonso passed him and was ahead of him. He does not have to leave room at all and Ro-Gro should have backed out instead of keeping his foot on the gas. You only have to leave room when the other driver is alongside you or in front; not when he's behind.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:19 pm 
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Grosjean was along side. If he was behind they couldn't have touched.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:22 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I have to agree. Alonso left him no room at all, and actually touched Grosjean's car too. This is a pretty similar incident to Ricciardo and Bottas at COTA. Grosjean had no other option but to leave the track or back out of it completely, and noone does the latter.

No you have to watch the overtake in motion. Alonso passed him and was ahead of him. He does not have to leave room at all and Ro-Gro should have backed out instead of keeping his foot on the gas. You only have to leave room when the other driver is alongside you or in front; not when he's behind.


You may be right, but I question your definition of "alongside" and "behind". As far as I know, the rules clearly state that a rear-wheel/front-wheel overlap is considered as being alongside, and Grosjean was closer than that.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:23 pm 
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This is the problem when you allow drivers to run people out on exit. That's exactly what Alonso did and as it's been judged before as ok in countless incidents over the past couple of seasons it was judged as ok this time.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:32 pm 
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Fantaribo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
I've just seen what Grosjean was penalised for.

He's turned into an absolute joke of a driver this season.


In my opinion, his penalty is a joke. Drivers nowadays have the habit to squeeze the overtaken car out of the track, which is ridiculous.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlSq_R2a7t4

But in this case Alonso wasn't doing that? Grosjean was nowhere near the edge of track when he decided to go full on the throttle and jump a vast section of track. It was a very deliberate attempt to cheat because cutting the corner at all was unnecessary. I 5 second penalty was way to lenient he probably gained close to that if you consider he would have lost time with Alonso passing him.

It's 100% a penalty and I hate this kind of thing from Grosjean. He is not a rookie anymore and he should know better.

This youtube video (recreated in a video game ??) is ridiculous. Here is the real onboard, from the official F1 youtube channel : https://youtu.be/-j1Dia_B_S4?t=1m42s

Image

I'm assuming this screenshot invalidates most of the posts above mine.

Absolutely that must have been created by an Alonso supporter, so what I can gather is that Grosjean was actually ahead at the apex and then Alonso ran Grosjean off the track, Grosjean had no other option, was the passing of the Force India car by Grosjean also made up?

Also I guess Alonso immediately got on the radio and said that Grosjean passed him off the track, it seems to be very much the Alonso tactic these days.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:40 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
In my opinion, his penalty is a joke. Drivers nowadays have the habit to squeeze the overtaken car out of the track, which is ridiculous.

Alonso hits the apex perfectly and takes the racing line for the corner, you'd be as well banning overtaking if you're going to outlaw that.
I know this is supposed to have been clarified after Belgium or Italy, but as far as I can tell, no rule allowing this was mentioned. In Whiting's explanation, being ahead at the apex is supposed to convey the right to remain on the racing line. I can't say I can spot the relevant rule in the regulations.Perhaps somebody else can?


What rule did Alonso break?
How about this one?
Quote:
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.


While Alonso did overtake Grosjean, shouldn't there be a penalty for deliberately running Grosjean off the track? When Alonso overtook Grosjean again later, he again ran him off the track, inflicting damage on Grosjean's car as he did so. This time, Grosjean was unable to cut across the corner, as there were sleeping policemen installed in turn 1.

I'm all for good racing, but running competitors off the track is supposed to be illegal. Also, it's all good and well to be ahead at the apex, but the driver dropping behind is not yet behind. Not being given space and time to drop behind will one day result in a serious accident. After which some of the culprits will go crying to race control.

I commented on Alonso hitting Grosjean's car at the time along with running him off the track, he did similar to Hamilton later in the race when defending his position, Hamilton was on the outside and ahead at the apex but Alonso simply chose to stay off the brakes later so he could run Hamilton wide and in doing so he also hit Hamilton's car causing some damage to it.

Alonso gets away with this driving whilst at the same time he is quick to get on the radio to the stewards if he himself believes he has been wronged.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:

In my opinion, his penalty is a joke. Drivers nowadays have the habit to squeeze the overtaken car out of the track, which is ridiculous.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlSq_R2a7t4

But in this case Alonso wasn't doing that? Grosjean was nowhere near the edge of track when he decided to go full on the throttle and jump a vast section of track. It was a very deliberate attempt to cheat because cutting the corner at all was unnecessary. I 5 second penalty was way to lenient he probably gained close to that if you consider he would have lost time with Alonso passing him.

It's 100% a penalty and I hate this kind of thing from Grosjean. He is not a rookie anymore and he should know better.

This youtube video (recreated in a video game ??) is ridiculous. Here is the real onboard, from the official F1 youtube channel : https://youtu.be/-j1Dia_B_S4?t=1m42s

Image

I'm assuming this screenshot invalidates most of the posts above mine.

Absolutely that must have been created by an Alonso supporter, so what I can gather is that Grosjean was actually ahead at the apex and then Alonso ran Grosjean off the track, Grosjean had no other option, was the passing of the Force India car by Grosjean also made up?

Also I guess Alonso immediately got on the radioi and said that Grosjean passed him off the track, it seems to be very much the Alonso tactic these days.


Nope, Alonso was ahead at the apex, you can see it in the video.(Not the game one).

Alonso has the same tactic as any other driver, when he see's something he flags it up. There literally isn't a driver who doesn't do this on the grid.

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