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Driver(s) of the day was / were:-
1. Lewis Hamilton 9%  9%  [ 15 ]
2. Valtteri Bottas 2%  2%  [ 3 ]
3. Sebastian Vettel 11%  11%  [ 18 ]
4. Kimi Raikkonen 3%  3%  [ 5 ]
5. Daniel Ricciardo 2%  2%  [ 4 ]
6. Max Verstappen 28%  28%  [ 48 ]
7. Sergio Perez 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
8. Esteban Ocon 20%  20%  [ 33 ]
9. Felipe Massa 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
10. Lance Stroll 6%  6%  [ 10 ]
11. Fernando Alonso 8%  8%  [ 13 ]
12. Stoffel Vandoorne 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
13. Pierre Gasly 2%  2%  [ 3 ]
14. Brandon Hartley 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
15. Romain Grosjean 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
16. Kevin Magnussen 5%  5%  [ 8 ]
17. Nico Hulkenberg 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
18. Carlos Sainz 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
19. Marcus Ericsson 2%  2%  [ 3 ]
20. Pascal Wehrlein 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 169
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:19 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
... 14 votes for the driver that basically ruined the race.
Yes, 14 votes for a driver at a center of a racing incident where any other driver would have made the same mistake. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You have no way whatsoever of proving that.
You are right, but the same goes for you, as your statement is purely subjective and you have no idea how the race would have been.
I know that Vettel hit Hamilton and basically ruined the race.
Ruined their race, perhaps. Wouldn't say it necessarily ruined the entire race.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:23 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
Yes, 14 votes for a driver at a center of a racing incident where any other driver would have made the same mistake. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You have no way whatsoever of proving that.
You are right, but the same goes for you, as your statement is purely subjective and you have no idea how the race would have been.
I know that Vettel hit Hamilton and basically ruined the race.
Ruined their race, perhaps. Wouldn't say it necessarily ruined the entire race.

It ruined what would have been a great battle at the front between Verstappen, Hamilton and Vettel, and like I said before in respect to the voting for Vettel, he ruined his own race.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:54 pm 
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Verstappen, Bottas and Ocon. As for Vettel and Hamilton, playing bumper cars at the start is not really good driving no matter how well you recover from it later.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:53 pm 
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mas wrote:
Verstappen, Bottas and Ocon. As for Vettel and Hamilton, playing bumper cars at the start is not really good driving no matter how well you recover from it later.

You put some blame on Hamilton?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:06 am 
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From what I saw Hamilton played bumper cars with three different cars, of which at least in one case he was the one to blame. Then he was probably the slowest driver on the grid not getting past anyone and eventually being lapped by his teammate.

But definitely DoD material.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:50 am 
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Covalent wrote:
From what I saw Hamilton played bumper cars with three different cars, of which at least in one case he was the one to blame. Then he was probably the slowest driver on the grid not getting past anyone and eventually being lapped by his teammate.

But definitely DoD material.


He wasn't driver of the day, but there was clearly damage to his car as well as the fact that he had to get all the way back to the pits with a puncture.

He was easily the least of the three to blame for the first corner incident.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:23 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
Verstappen, Bottas and Ocon. As for Vettel and Hamilton, playing bumper cars at the start is not really good driving no matter how well you recover from it later.

You put some blame on Hamilton?


That clash was all because of Vettel. It somehow felt deliberate by Vettel to inflict damage to Hamilton's car / tyres. This was a little low point for me when it came to Vettel. For his brashness & risky moves, Hamilton surely deserved the title.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:19 am 
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So wish Dan had gone race distance - think he'd have got podium seeing he was pushing Kimi hard and probably had pace to pull away 'if' he'd managed to overtake. But we'll never know and 5 laps is too short to give him any votes (well from me anyway)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:22 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
Verstappen, Bottas and Ocon. As for Vettel and Hamilton, playing bumper cars at the start is not really good driving no matter how well you recover from it later.

You put some blame on Hamilton?


That clash was all because of Vettel. It somehow felt deliberate by Vettel to inflict damage to Hamilton's car / tyres. This was a little low point for me when it came to Vettel. For his brashness & risky moves, Hamilton surely deserved the title.

I think that's just paranoia talking. Vettel would have 100% risk of damage to his front wing, against at best 50% risk of puncturing Hamilton's tyre. The risk/reward doesn't justify that accusation


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:23 am 
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Agree with Zoue - the contact was more likely against Max - but he got lucky - just a few cm bad luck


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:55 am 
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Covalent wrote:
From what I saw Hamilton played bumper cars with three different cars, of which at least in one case he was the one to blame. Then he was probably the slowest driver on the grid not getting past anyone and eventually being lapped by his teammate.

But definitely DoD material.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:24 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
From what I saw Hamilton played bumper cars with three different cars, of which at least in one case he was the one to blame. Then he was probably the slowest driver on the grid not getting past anyone and eventually being lapped by his teammate.

But definitely DoD material.

So you blame Hamilton for the first corner collision?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:27 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
From what I saw Hamilton played bumper cars with three different cars, of which at least in one case he was the one to blame. Then he was probably the slowest driver on the grid not getting past anyone and eventually being lapped by his teammate.

But definitely DoD material.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh dear oh dear!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:49 pm 
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Hamilton only needed 5th, WTH was he doing getting in between Verstappen and Vettel on the first lap. He should have stayed out of both their ways like he did in Singapore. His teammate managed it ok and he needed a better result more.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:53 pm 
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mas wrote:
Hamilton only needed 5th, WTH was he doing getting in between Verstappen and Vettel on the first lap. He should have stayed out of both their ways like he did in Singapore. His teammate managed it ok and he needed a better result more.

Where did you expect him to go with a field of cars behind him, he couldn't exactly park it waiting for Verstappen and Vettel to sort themselves out, he actually kept as far away as he could but you blame him for Vettel's clumsy driving.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:55 pm 
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mas wrote:
Hamilton only needed 5th, WTH was he doing getting in between Verstappen and Vettel on the first lap. He should have stayed out of both their ways like he did in Singapore. His teammate managed it ok and he needed a better result more.

I don't really agree with this as I think hanging back is no guarantee of a decent result, but it is the same logic that was applied when criticising Vettel for getting "involved" with Max and Kimi in Singapore! It is strange those same people aren't criticising Hamilton in the same way...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:56 pm 
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mas wrote:
Hamilton only needed 5th, WTH was he doing getting in between Verstappen and Vettel on the first lap. He should have stayed out of both their ways like he did in Singapore. His teammate managed it ok and he needed a better result more.


Hamilton did absolutely nothing wrong. There was a clear open gap which Hamilton went through and gave more than enough room for any car on the inside. It's not Hamiltons fault Vettel went in too much and hit him, he got put down the grid from someone else's driving.
If Hamilton just drove slow and let the other two go he would have been overtaken himself plus other cars behind would get better speed onto the next straight, that would be a dangerous game to play.

Some posts on here are comedy gold.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:01 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mas wrote:
Hamilton only needed 5th, WTH was he doing getting in between Verstappen and Vettel on the first lap. He should have stayed out of both their ways like he did in Singapore. His teammate managed it ok and he needed a better result more.

I don't really agree with this as I think hanging back is no guarantee of a decent result, but it is the same logic that was applied when criticising Vettel for getting "involved" with Max and Kimi in Singapore! It is strange those same people aren't criticising Hamilton in the same way...


It's not the same, if Vettel when straight on the racing line the accident wouldn't have happened. It was a risky move Vettel done in Singapore in poor conditions, Verstappen got to Vettels head and that was the consequences.
I thought Vettel was in front in Singapore? If so then there is no need to hang back.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:07 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mas wrote:
Hamilton only needed 5th, WTH was he doing getting in between Verstappen and Vettel on the first lap. He should have stayed out of both their ways like he did in Singapore. His teammate managed it ok and he needed a better result more.

I don't really agree with this as I think hanging back is no guarantee of a decent result, but it is the same logic that was applied when criticising Vettel for getting "involved" with Max and Kimi in Singapore! It is strange those same people aren't criticising Hamilton in the same way...


It's not the same, if Vettel when straight on the racing line the accident wouldn't have happened. It was a risky move Vettel done in Singapore in poor conditions, Verstappen got to Vettels head and that was the consequences.
I thought Vettel was in front in Singapore? If so then there is no need to hang back.

It's not a carbon copy but it's exactly the same principle. People were criticising Vettel for not jumping out of the way and allowing Max to take the lead, saying he should just steer out of trouble. I don't see much difference really.

BTW, I don't agree with the principle. I think Vettel's move was just fine and I remember thinking at the time was a great bit of opportunism it was from Hamilton to read the situation like he did and nip across to take second. But I am sensing some double standards from some who did voice the criticism in Singapore


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:21 pm 
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Hamilton's move was risky as there wasn't really enough space on the left to pull it off as evidenced by the fact that only his right tyres were on the track during it. Sure Verstappen squeezed him causing him to slow down causing Vettel to collide with him but he did not really need to be jockeying for the lead in the first few corners with two guys he had already seen collide with each other. He put himself at the mercy of others and damage occurred as a result of these circumstances.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:25 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
Verstappen, Bottas and Ocon. As for Vettel and Hamilton, playing bumper cars at the start is not really good driving no matter how well you recover from it later.

You put some blame on Hamilton?


That clash was all because of Vettel. It somehow felt deliberate by Vettel to inflict damage to Hamilton's car / tyres. This was a little low point for me when it came to Vettel. For his brashness & risky moves, Hamilton surely deserved the title.

I think that's just paranoia talking. Vettel would have 100% risk of damage to his front wing, against at best 50% risk of puncturing Hamilton's tyre. The risk/reward doesn't justify that accusation



I think there was a very high chance of a puncture because Vettel had already damaged his left front wing on Max's rear, leaving exposed and sharp remnants of the front wing which impacted and "shredded" Hamilton's rear left rather heavily. In that sense, it stands to reason that Max was not affected but then Hamilton was. Max actually avoided potential punctures on two occasions in the first 3 corners (his left rear made contact with Lewis' front wing). So Vettel had already incurred substantial front wing damage and that very damage greatly increased the chances of Hamilton getting a puncture. However, I don't think the move was deliberate but that Vettel was trying desperately to hang on to a situation that was slipping through his fingers and being overambitious with his throttle control in wrestling the car.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:30 pm 
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mas wrote:
Hamilton's move was risky as there wasn't really enough space on the left to pull it off as evidenced by the fact that only his right tyres were on the track during it. Sure Verstappen squeezed him causing him to slow down causing Vettel to collide with him but he did not really need to be jockeying for the lead in the first few corners with two guys he had already seen collide with each other. He put himself at the mercy of others and damage occurred as a result of these circumstances.



Hamilton having to lift a bit still resulted in contact between him and Verstappen and a damaged front wing, though it doesn't excuse Vettel puncturing his tyre and Vettel's driving was clumsy throughout the opening corners. Hamilton was certainly aggressive and opportunistic though he did leave room, but still made contact and took damage to Verstappen which would have compromised his race pace until the first pit stop which would have been slow due to having to replace the front wing.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:15 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mas wrote:
Hamilton only needed 5th, WTH was he doing getting in between Verstappen and Vettel on the first lap. He should have stayed out of both their ways like he did in Singapore. His teammate managed it ok and he needed a better result more.

I don't really agree with this as I think hanging back is no guarantee of a decent result, but it is the same logic that was applied when criticising Vettel for getting "involved" with Max and Kimi in Singapore! It is strange those same people aren't criticising Hamilton in the same way...

It wasn't the same for a number of reasons. The big one being Hamilton had so little to lose

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:29 pm 
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mas wrote:
Hamilton's move was risky as there wasn't really enough space on the left to pull it off as evidenced by the fact that only his right tyres were on the track during it. Sure Verstappen squeezed him causing him to slow down causing Vettel to collide with him but he did not really need to be jockeying for the lead in the first few corners with two guys he had already seen collide with each other. He put himself at the mercy of others and damage occurred as a result of these circumstances.

No that's absurd. You can't really hang back at the first corner of the race or you will be swarmed by traffic (and then you are really at risk of a collision). Hamilton made his move clean and left Vettel plenty of room. The fact that Vettel ran into him is Vettel's fault.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:06 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mas wrote:
Hamilton only needed 5th, WTH was he doing getting in between Verstappen and Vettel on the first lap. He should have stayed out of both their ways like he did in Singapore. His teammate managed it ok and he needed a better result more.

I don't really agree with this as I think hanging back is no guarantee of a decent result, but it is the same logic that was applied when criticising Vettel for getting "involved" with Max and Kimi in Singapore! It is strange those same people aren't criticising Hamilton in the same way...

Was Hamilton squeezing space, he actually left has much space as he could short of driving off the track, it's strange how poor driving from Vettel can be made into a mistake by Hamilton, I would also venture if not for the wish not to end the fight for the title there and then, the stewards might have taken a different view on the incident?

Room is given for Vettel not having done something deliberately but then slowly but surely some blame then gets put Hamilton's way.

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Last edited by pokerman on Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:10 pm 
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mas wrote:
Hamilton's move was risky as there wasn't really enough space on the left to pull it off as evidenced by the fact that only his right tyres were on the track during it. Sure Verstappen squeezed him causing him to slow down causing Vettel to collide with him but he did not really need to be jockeying for the lead in the first few corners with two guys he had already seen collide with each other. He put himself at the mercy of others and damage occurred as a result of these circumstances.

Only his right tyres were on the track because Hamilton was giving as much room as he could, strange that giving another driver the opportunity to crash him out is seen as Hamilton's fault, is this Death Race 2000 or something?

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