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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:12 pm 
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Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Having seen the difference of a fresh engine not holding back against end of life engines, I can't see anyone beating Hamilton in Abu Dhabi, especially given his strong record there.



Ferrari will be super strong in AD though, they will gain a lot of time in that final sector. The straights are not that long there either.
And while the Merc might have the better power unit in terms of maximum power, I think the Ferrari is torquier, gets off the line quicker, which is why they've won so many starts and are so good at exiting low speed corners.

Tbh I thought this would be a Ferrari track but Mercedes was well clear here IMO. I also had Abu Dhabi down as a Ferrari track with the final sector but I’m not very confident in that anymore. Especially with Hamilton’s fresh engine.


Surely your not comparing the cars equally then if we are putting Hamilton's new engine in the equation?

Starting from the back of the grid and coming through traffic has probably cost Hamilton at least 30 seconds on the leader, and I dont think Fresh engine can possibly compensate anywhere near that amount, not even half of it probably... otherwise we would have seen Ferrari and Mercedes happily taking the penalty for Fresh engine at will on engine dependent tracks (whilst Brazil isnt particularly known as very engine dependent track). Also when "slower" Merc driver without a new engine was able to hang on to the "faster" Ferrari driver throughout the race, that to me is a sign of Mercedes being clearly the faster car.


When Vettel wasn't pushing, Lauda said so himself. Vettel was just managing the pace.

Plus Hamilton's car was set up perfectly for the race. Also had the optimum strategy and a SC to help out.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:17 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Having seen the difference of a fresh engine not holding back against end of life engines, I can't see anyone beating Hamilton in Abu Dhabi, especially given his strong record there.



Ferrari will be super strong in AD though, they will gain a lot of time in that final sector. The straights are not that long there either.
And while the Merc might have the better power unit in terms of maximum power, I think the Ferrari is torquier, gets off the line quicker, which is why they've won so many starts and are so good at exiting low speed corners.

Tbh I thought this would be a Ferrari track but Mercedes was well clear here IMO. I also had Abu Dhabi down as a Ferrari track with the final sector but I’m not very confident in that anymore. Especially with Hamilton’s fresh engine.

Surely your not comparing the cars equally then if we are putting Hamilton's new engine in the equation?

Well I do think Vettel was holding back and controlling the race given how close Kimi was all race. I suppose if you assume Vettel was holding back a lot and discount Hamilton’s fresh engine you could say they were roughly equal in race pace, but you would have make some assumptions as to how much Vettel was holding back.

Overall for the weekend though it was a clear Mercedes track with qualifying being a clear win for Mercedes, so like I said I assumed this would be a Ferrari track but it turned out to be a Mercedes one, hence why I’m not confident in my previous assumption that Abu Dhabi would be a Ferrari track.


Tbh it would have been a race won at the first corner like the majority of races between the top two. If Vettel was leading at turn 1 even Hamilton wouldn't have been able to keep up with the Ferrari in sector 2.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:21 pm 
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Hamilton would have been on Vettel's tail more easily though and the undercut would have had a much greater chance of working had he been second to him after turn 1. If he'd have been first then I'd have expected him to drive away enough to be safe from Vettel. I don't put all of his super race pace today just down to a new engine plus reversed strat.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:26 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Hamilton would have been on Vettel's tail more easily though and the undercut would have had a much greater chance of working had he been second to him after turn 1. If he'd have been first then I'd have expected him to drive away enough to be safe from Vettel. I don't put all of his super race pace today just down to a new engine plus reversed strat.


Exactly. I think those who stubbornly refuse to give Hamilton credit for anything are talking like starting from the pit lane is the optimum strategy.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:28 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Ferrari will be super strong in AD though, they will gain a lot of time in that final sector. The straights are not that long there either.
And while the Merc might have the better power unit in terms of maximum power, I think the Ferrari is torquier, gets off the line quicker, which is why they've won so many starts and are so good at exiting low speed corners.

Tbh I thought this would be a Ferrari track but Mercedes was well clear here IMO. I also had Abu Dhabi down as a Ferrari track with the final sector but I’m not very confident in that anymore. Especially with Hamilton’s fresh engine.

Surely your not comparing the cars equally then if we are putting Hamilton's new engine in the equation?

Well I do think Vettel was holding back and controlling the race given how close Kimi was all race. I suppose if you assume Vettel was holding back a lot and discount Hamilton’s fresh engine you could say they were roughly equal in race pace, but you would have make some assumptions as to how much Vettel was holding back.

Overall for the weekend though it was a clear Mercedes track with qualifying being a clear win for Mercedes, so like I said I assumed this would be a Ferrari track but it turned out to be a Mercedes one, hence why I’m not confident in my previous assumption that Abu Dhabi would be a Ferrari track.


Tbh it would have been a race won at the first corner like the majority of races between the top two. If Vettel was leading at turn 1 even Hamilton wouldn't have been able to keep up with the Ferrari in sector 2.

Fully agree, the race was won at the first corner.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:29 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Hamilton would have been on Vettel's tail more easily though and the undercut would have had a much greater chance of working had he been second to him after turn 1. If he'd have been first then I'd have expected him to drive away enough to be safe from Vettel. I don't put all of his super race pace today just down to a new engine plus reversed strat.


That's what I said, turn 1 wins the race. It's too hard to overtake in similar pace cars.
Ferrari might have pitted first if Hamilton was the car behind, there is a clear difference between Bottas and Hamilton. No one knows what really would have happened but it would have been close and I every much doubt the Mercedes would have been so much superior as some would like to make out.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:39 pm 
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Herb wrote:
F1nut wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1nut wrote:
Max sets fastest lap ever - breaks Juan Pablo's lap record from 13 years ago.

That's why he pitted just to get fastest lap.


lol yeah. The fastest lap does not mean anything these days

Ferrari much faster than RBR here. Hamilton screwed up an easy win though because of his mistake yesterday.


You do realize there's a difference between getting a "fastest lap" and being the Interlagos "lap-record-holder" by breaking Juan Pablo Montoya's "13 year old" lap record.


He didn't. He broke Hamilton's 3 minute old record. ;)

Hamilton's fastest was a 11.8 while Montoya did a 11.4 in 2004 :?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:59 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Herb wrote:
F1nut wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That's why he pitted just to get fastest lap.


lol yeah. The fastest lap does not mean anything these days

Ferrari much faster than RBR here. Hamilton screwed up an easy win though because of his mistake yesterday.


You do realize there's a difference between getting a "fastest lap" and being the Interlagos "lap-record-holder" by breaking Juan Pablo Montoya's "13 year old" lap record.


He didn't. He broke Hamilton's 3 minute old record. ;)

Hamilton's fastest was a 11.8 while Montoya did a 11.4 in 2004 :?


Ah. Apologies, I must have misheard Brundle. I thought he'd said Hamilton was the first person ever into the 1.11s!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:44 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:


Ferrari will be super strong in AD though, they will gain a lot of time in that final sector. The straights are not that long there either.
And while the Merc might have the better power unit in terms of maximum power, I think the Ferrari is torquier, gets off the line quicker, which is why they've won so many starts and are so good at exiting low speed corners.

Tbh I thought this would be a Ferrari track but Mercedes was well clear here IMO. I also had Abu Dhabi down as a Ferrari track with the final sector but I’m not very confident in that anymore. Especially with Hamilton’s fresh engine.


Surely your not comparing the cars equally then if we are putting Hamilton's new engine in the equation?

Starting from the back of the grid and coming through traffic has probably cost Hamilton at least 30 seconds on the leader, and I dont think Fresh engine can possibly compensate anywhere near that amount, not even half of it probably... otherwise we would have seen Ferrari and Mercedes happily taking the penalty for Fresh engine at will on engine dependent tracks (whilst Brazil isnt particularly known as very engine dependent track). Also when "slower" Merc driver without a new engine was able to hang on to the "faster" Ferrari driver throughout the race, that to me is a sign of Mercedes being clearly the faster car.


When Vettel wasn't pushing, Lauda said so himself. Vettel was just managing the pace.

Plus Hamilton's car was set up perfectly for the race. Also had the optimum strategy and a SC to help out.

And Lauda is supposed to know that better than Vettel himself?
This was a sort of Malaysian GP in reverse (the difference, Merc got both poles) where you said that Ferrari was the car to have with Vettel starting from the back and finishing 4th (37seconds behind the leader, not merely 5 seconds like Hamilton today)... or do you also object that one too now? Why have you changed the standards so much today?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:35 pm 
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gregwil wrote:
Invade wrote:
gregwil wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
So Vettel is fine as long as Ham, Max and Ric aren’t competitive 😂

And Bottas is poor


:lol:

Removing any retirements from any of the drivers, regardless of reasons here are some interesting little stats:

Vettel's average finishing position has been 2.53

Hamilton's average finishing position has been 2.74

Bottas' average finishing position has been 3.06 (only 0.32 positions behind Hamilton)

Kimi's average finishing position has been 3.87 (1.34 positions behind Vettel)

Besides that Vettel led the first 12 races of the season and it was only when he started having problems, whether they were self inflicted or not, that Hamilton was able to take the lead; so is Hamilton only fine when Vettel isn't competitive? Hmmm makes you wonder doesn't it?

Just to make it clear I'm not debating that Vettel should be leading the championship as I know that retirements are a part of the racing and therefore Hamilton has won the season fair and square but it would be a different story without Vettel's two retirements.


I think if Bottas + whoever (not a top driver) was in the Merc that Vettel would have won the WDC this year. Bottas should be better in 2018 now that he's bedding in and has had a season to understand operations.

You are right but I think these stats also show more that if Vettel was in the same car as Hamilton and neither had any issues throughout the season then Vettel would come out on top, I have absolutely not one ounce of doubt that it would be so.


Hamilton had 2 races in which he finished very low, 9th (Mexico) and 5th (Baku). Ironically 1 race that he would have finished 1st/2nd in if Vettel himself didn't give him a puncture. Without Mexico, an incident caused by Vettel Hamilton has a lower average finishing position than Vettel.

Average finishing position is a really meaningless stat. Ayrton Senna's average classified position in 1989 was 2.9, yet he won 6 of the 8 races he actually finished all due to an 11th place finish in Brazil and a 7th in Canada when he broke down on the last lap.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:39 pm 
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gregwil wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
So Vettel is fine as long as Ham, Max and Ric aren’t competitive 😂

And Bottas is poor


:lol:

Removing any retirements from any of the drivers, regardless of reasons here are some interesting little stats:

Vettel's average finishing position has been 2.53

Hamilton's average finishing position has been 2.74

Bottas' average finishing position has been 3.06 (only 0.32 positions behind Hamilton)

Kimi's average finishing position has been 3.87 (1.34 positions behind Vettel)

Besides that Vettel led the first 12 races of the season and it was only when he started having problems, whether they were self inflicted or not, that Hamilton was able to take the lead; so is Hamilton only fine when Vettel isn't competitive? Hmmm makes you wonder doesn't it?

Just to make it clear I'm not debating that Vettel should be leading the championship as I know that retirements are a part of the racing and therefore Hamilton has won the season fair and square but it would be a different story without Vettel's two retirements.


That is the problem with season averages, they get thrown out by outliers. In this case Hamiltons Mexico result and in part the yellow flags in Monaco qualifying. If Hamilton had received enough damage to DNF in Mexico he would be ahead of Vettel too.

The same for qualifying. Kimi Raikkonen is ahead of Vettel for average qualifying position because Vettel had that P20 start.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:47 pm 
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I was rooting for Bottas today but his defence into turn 1 lost him a race win. What was he thinking? Did he not watch any of the previous starts at Brazil, cover the inside and you maintain the lead almost 100% of the time. He made an equal initial get away to Vettel, he had the race won if he covered the inside right away.

The camera angle they used for the start was ridiculous too, you couldn't tell who was in front.

Overall it was an entertaining race though.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:59 pm 
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lamo wrote:
I was rooting for Bottas today but his defence into turn 1 lost him a race win. What was he thinking? Did he not watch any of the previous starts at Brazil, cover the inside and you maintain the lead almost 100% of the time. He made an equal initial get away to Vettel, he had the race won if he covered the inside right away.

The camera angle they used for the start was ridiculous too, you couldn't tell who was in front.

Overall it was an entertaining race though.

That’s true but I’m Bottas’ defence he wouldn’t have been able to see Vettel’s car so he wouldn’t have known if Vettel had got a better launch or just an equal one.

Sweeping to the left to cover the inside cost Vettel dearly in Singapore. Bottas doing so here would have only been the same as he couldn’t see Vettel just as in Singapore Vettel couldn’t see Max/Kimi so at that point it’s just a game of luck as to whether the car behind got a better start.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:40 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Herb wrote:
F1nut wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lol yeah. The fastest lap does not mean anything these days

Ferrari much faster than RBR here. Hamilton screwed up an easy win though because of his mistake yesterday.


You do realize there's a difference between getting a "fastest lap" and being the Interlagos "lap-record-holder" by breaking Juan Pablo Montoya's "13 year old" lap record.


He didn't. He broke Hamilton's 3 minute old record. ;)

Hamilton's fastest was a 11.8 while Montoya did a 11.4 in 2004 :?

Apparently Verstappen gets bonus payments for fastest laps.

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Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:01 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
lamo wrote:
I was rooting for Bottas today but his defence into turn 1 lost him a race win. What was he thinking? Did he not watch any of the previous starts at Brazil, cover the inside and you maintain the lead almost 100% of the time. He made an equal initial get away to Vettel, he had the race won if he covered the inside right away.

The camera angle they used for the start was ridiculous too, you couldn't tell who was in front.

Overall it was an entertaining race though.

That’s true but I’m Bottas’ defence he wouldn’t have been able to see Vettel’s car so he wouldn’t have known if Vettel had got a better launch or just an equal one.

Sweeping to the left to cover the inside cost Vettel dearly in Singapore. Bottas doing so here would have only been the same as he couldn’t see Vettel just as in Singapore Vettel couldn’t see Max/Kimi so at that point it’s just a game of luck as to whether the car behind got a better start.


Well, I watched the starts of the races and every year in the last 6 the leader immediately covered the inside. Did they know or could see something that Bottas couldn't? No.

Its not luck, the cars do have mirrors and at most angles they can see what is behind and hear also. There is just a slight blind spot. Singapore is not comparable because Vettel was looking at Verstapen in his mirror and could see him fine.

What he couldn't see was Kimi (which would be impossible to see as Verstappen car covered him). Singapore was also a wet start, so its much harder to gauge the odds of the third place man being on the inside. Starts are a lot more variable in the wet.

In the dry a driver can gauge immediately how good their own start is and the odds of a third car being there. Also if you watch all the other Brazilian GP starts, the leader moves to the inside so early, the 2nd place man has no option to immediately go to the outside.

Rosberg did this in both 2014 and 2015 to Hamilton - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up7dQu7ZceY

Bottas had plenty of time to do it today - https://streamable.com/v7ddr
In the first 50m (approx) of the start, up to they get to the shadow over the track. Bottas has actually pulled about 1m on Vettel.

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Last edited by lamo on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:09 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:06 am 
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So for his notebook Ted was showing pictures on his phone of Hartley in his karting days when he received a rather interesting message:

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https://twitter.com/tommywtf1/status/929786495938023428

:lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:41 am 
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Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Migen wrote:
Starting from the back of the grid and coming through traffic has probably cost Hamilton at least 30 seconds on the leader, and I dont think Fresh engine can possibly compensate anywhere near that amount, not even half of it probably... otherwise we would have seen Ferrari and Mercedes happily taking the penalty for Fresh engine at will on engine dependent tracks (whilst Brazil isnt particularly known as very engine dependent track). Also when "slower" Merc driver without a new engine was able to hang on to the "faster" Ferrari driver throughout the race, that to me is a sign of Mercedes being clearly the faster car.


When Vettel wasn't pushing, Lauda said so himself. Vettel was just managing the pace.

Plus Hamilton's car was set up perfectly for the race. Also had the optimum strategy and a SC to help out.

And Lauda is supposed to know that better than Vettel himself?
This was a sort of Malaysian GP in reverse (the difference, Merc got both poles) where you said that Ferrari was the car to have with Vettel starting from the back and finishing 4th (37seconds behind the leader, not merely 5 seconds like Hamilton today)... or do you also object that one too now? Why have you changed the standards so much today?


I haven’t said which car was the best to have in Brazil. I’m just watching the race and making an observation that there is no real evidence IMO the Mercedes was superior to Ferrari. Would Vettel have won if he beat Hamilton to the first corner I would say yes, would Hamilton have won if he beat Vettel to the first corner I also say yes. That’s more the nature of F1 and not who has the faster car.

Other things need to be taken into consideration like a brand new engine which only has to last 2 races with an advantage 15hp, Hamilton starting from 14. Then we go into comparing different circuits, one driver in a championship battle and the other not, a drivers racecraft. Also Vettel was low on fuel at the end of the race and lost time.

Personally I think the Verstappen/RB combo was the fastest package because he put in the fastest lap.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:01 am 
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Next season it will be 3 races for the entire season, I honestly think using a 4th engine would be more beneficial and taking some penalties in a race. Just look at Hamiltons race today, if the track allowed for easier overtaking he probably would have finished 2nd or at least 3rd and got himself another new engine.

Taking a tactical 4th engine I think it is a genuine good strategy - you will have to do it once your 3rd engine has been installed. So any race from around race 12-14 and then you have a big power advantage for the the last 7-8 rounds.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:42 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
So for his notebook Ted was showing pictures on his phone of Hartley in his karting days when he received a rather interesting message:

Image
https://twitter.com/tommywtf1/status/929786495938023428

:lol:

8O :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:59 am 
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lamo wrote:
gregwil wrote:
Invade wrote:
gregwil wrote:
Removing any retirements from any of the drivers, regardless of reasons here are some interesting little stats:

Vettel's average finishing position has been 2.53

Hamilton's average finishing position has been 2.74

Bottas' average finishing position has been 3.06 (only 0.32 positions behind Hamilton)

Kimi's average finishing position has been 3.87 (1.34 positions behind Vettel)

Besides that Vettel led the first 12 races of the season and it was only when he started having problems, whether they were self inflicted or not, that Hamilton was able to take the lead; so is Hamilton only fine when Vettel isn't competitive? Hmmm makes you wonder doesn't it?

Just to make it clear I'm not debating that Vettel should be leading the championship as I know that retirements are a part of the racing and therefore Hamilton has won the season fair and square but it would be a different story without Vettel's two retirements.


I think if Bottas + whoever (not a top driver) was in the Merc that Vettel would have won the WDC this year. Bottas should be better in 2018 now that he's bedding in and has had a season to understand operations.

You are right but I think these stats also show more that if Vettel was in the same car as Hamilton and neither had any issues throughout the season then Vettel would come out on top, I have absolutely not one ounce of doubt that it would be so.


Hamilton had 2 races in which he finished very low, 9th (Mexico) and 5th (Baku). Ironically 1 race that he would have finished 1st/2nd in if Vettel himself didn't give him a puncture. Without Mexico, an incident caused by Vettel Hamilton has a lower average finishing position than Vettel.

Average finishing position is a really meaningless stat. Ayrton Senna's average classified position in 1989 was 2.9, yet he won 6 of the 8 races he actually finished all due to an 11th place finish in Brazil and a 7th in Canada when he broke down on the last lap.
Vettel had a number of races where he finished in a lower position than he should have becuase of tyre blow outs, his front wing was clipped on a number of occassions by Kamakazi Max, he had a race where he couldn't qualify due to technical issues with the car (Hamilton did mess up his own qualifying in Brazil) etc. So this is looking at the average race finishing throughout the season regardless of why they finished where they did as long as they crossed the finishing line at the end of the race.

As long as Senna didn't cross the finishing line in Canada then this should be counted as a retirement when looking at the average finishing poitions.

Funny enough if average finishing positions are taken into account, Hamilton actually finished in the highest average position is 2010 and Alonso the highest position in 2012. Vettel finished in a higher position than Button in 2009 and Kimi finished in the highest position in 2008. Other than that over the past 10 years the driver that won the WDC has been in the highest average finishing position except for this year.

Anyway it is just an interesting way to look back at seasons obviously average finishing positions couldn't be implemented in the WDC as a driver could just retire in races when his average position is high, for instance if Vettel retired next race then his average finishing poition would be higher than Hamilton's even if Hamilton won the race but if Hamilton wins the race and Vettel finishes the race in a position lower than 4th the Hamilton's average would be higher.

Also my post was in response to guys saying that Vettel was only good when others where not competetive but these stats (including the fact that Vettel led the first 12 races) actually suggest that it was Hamilton who was only leading the WDC becuase of the issues Vettel had had throughout the season, just removing the two retirements Vettel could well be still leading the WDC and would at the very least still be in with a shout. But the WDC includes any retirements etc which is fair so he is not in with a shout which is fine but it is not right to suggest that he is not at the very least as good as Hamilton and in my opinion he is better.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:49 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Migen wrote:
Starting from the back of the grid and coming through traffic has probably cost Hamilton at least 30 seconds on the leader, and I dont think Fresh engine can possibly compensate anywhere near that amount, not even half of it probably... otherwise we would have seen Ferrari and Mercedes happily taking the penalty for Fresh engine at will on engine dependent tracks (whilst Brazil isnt particularly known as very engine dependent track). Also when "slower" Merc driver without a new engine was able to hang on to the "faster" Ferrari driver throughout the race, that to me is a sign of Mercedes being clearly the faster car.


When Vettel wasn't pushing, Lauda said so himself. Vettel was just managing the pace.

Plus Hamilton's car was set up perfectly for the race. Also had the optimum strategy and a SC to help out.

And Lauda is supposed to know that better than Vettel himself?
This was a sort of Malaysian GP in reverse (the difference, Merc got both poles) where you said that Ferrari was the car to have with Vettel starting from the back and finishing 4th (37seconds behind the leader, not merely 5 seconds like Hamilton today)... or do you also object that one too now? Why have you changed the standards so much today?


I haven’t said which car was the best to have in Brazil. I’m just watching the race and making an observation that there is no real evidence IMO the Mercedes was superior to Ferrari. Would Vettel have won if he beat Hamilton to the first corner I would say yes, would Hamilton have won if he beat Vettel to the first corner I also say yes. That’s more the nature of F1 and not who has the faster car.
But, isnt the above as much valid for Malaysian GP too, just in reverse?

F1_Ernie wrote:
Other things need to be taken into consideration like a brand new engine which only has to last 2 races with an advantage 15hp, Hamilton starting from 14. Then we go into comparing different circuits, one driver in a championship battle and the other not, a drivers racecraft. Also Vettel was low on fuel at the end of the race and lost time.
Same as Hamilton yesterday, Vettel too had a brand new engine for the race in Malaysia and being low on fuel on the last few laps in Malaysia didnt cost Vettel that many seconds. Its all relative when it comes to fuel consumption... if you push too hard for the most part of the race, you might have to take it easier at the end, or you might race more steadily throughout the race and end up with the same spot with similar (or the same) gap behind the leaders.

F1_Ernie wrote:
Personally I think the Verstappen/RB combo was the fastest package because he put in the fastest lap.
You're joking, right? You know very well why that happen with Verstappen having nothing to loose and pitting for brand new tires with only 7 laps remaining whilst very low on fuel.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:15 pm 
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Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Migen wrote:
Starting from the back of the grid and coming through traffic has probably cost Hamilton at least 30 seconds on the leader, and I dont think Fresh engine can possibly compensate anywhere near that amount, not even half of it probably... otherwise we would have seen Ferrari and Mercedes happily taking the penalty for Fresh engine at will on engine dependent tracks (whilst Brazil isnt particularly known as very engine dependent track). Also when "slower" Merc driver without a new engine was able to hang on to the "faster" Ferrari driver throughout the race, that to me is a sign of Mercedes being clearly the faster car.


When Vettel wasn't pushing, Lauda said so himself. Vettel was just managing the pace.

Plus Hamilton's car was set up perfectly for the race. Also had the optimum strategy and a SC to help out.

And Lauda is supposed to know that better than Vettel himself?
This was a sort of Malaysian GP in reverse (the difference, Merc got both poles) where you said that Ferrari was the car to have with Vettel starting from the back and finishing 4th (37seconds behind the leader, not merely 5 seconds like Hamilton today)... or do you also object that one too now? Why have you changed the standards so much today?


I haven’t said which car was the best to have in Brazil. I’m just watching the race and making an observation that there is no real evidence IMO the Mercedes was superior to Ferrari. Would Vettel have won if he beat Hamilton to the first corner I would say yes, would Hamilton have won if he beat Vettel to the first corner I also say yes. That’s more the nature of F1 and not who has the faster car.
But, isnt the above as much valid for Malaysian GP too, just in reverse?

F1_Ernie wrote:
Other things need to be taken into consideration like a brand new engine which only has to last 2 races with an advantage 15hp, Hamilton starting from 14. Then we go into comparing different circuits, one driver in a championship battle and the other not, a drivers racecraft. Also Vettel was low on fuel at the end of the race and lost time.
Same as Hamilton yesterday, Vettel too had a brand new engine for the race in Malaysia and being low on fuel on the last few laps in Malaysia didnt cost Vettel that many seconds. Its all relative when it comes to fuel consumption... if you push too hard for the most part of the race, you might have to take it easier at the end, or you might race more steadily throughout the race and end up with the same spot with similar (or the same) gap behind the leaders.

F1_Ernie wrote:
Personally I think the Verstappen/RB combo was the fastest package because he put in the fastest lap.
You're joking, right? You know very well why that happen with Verstappen having nothing to loose and pitting for brand new tires with only 7 laps remaining whilst very low on fuel.


Your just trying to compare two different races and say they are the same when there clearly not. Vettel had a new engine but was it a engine Ferrari expected to use for 2 races so they could thrash it from start to finish? Plus Ferrari didn’t bring the updated engine and at least Hamilton had the new and most updated Merc engine. Did Vettel set his car up specifically for the race? I can’t remember. Vettel lost 9 seconds in the last 2 laps, the only reason I mentioned this was because you started talking about gaps from the leaders.
Plus Vettel had a championship to lose at that point, Hamilton had nothing to lose. Which driver has better racecraft? Much more to consider than looking at the final results. It would be like looking at the championship table and thinking the Ferrari has an awful car or Verstappen was the fastest driver in Brazil

Hamilton also started from 14th with a brand new engine and a car set up for the race, he gained 5 seconds through the SC and a number of positions through pitstops and crashes. He gained 3-5 seconds through the optimum strategy then the car was ridiculous but trying to compare it to the Ferrari with an engine with more mileage and running a different race is harsh.

That’s my view and I will keep coming back with the same points.

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Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:40 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
lamo wrote:
I was rooting for Bottas today but his defence into turn 1 lost him a race win. What was he thinking? Did he not watch any of the previous starts at Brazil, cover the inside and you maintain the lead almost 100% of the time. He made an equal initial get away to Vettel, he had the race won if he covered the inside right away.

The camera angle they used for the start was ridiculous too, you couldn't tell who was in front.

Overall it was an entertaining race though.

That’s true but I’m Bottas’ defence he wouldn’t have been able to see Vettel’s car so he wouldn’t have known if Vettel had got a better launch or just an equal one.

Sweeping to the left to cover the inside cost Vettel dearly in Singapore. Bottas doing so here would have only been the same as he couldn’t see Vettel just as in Singapore Vettel couldn’t see Max/Kimi so at that point it’s just a game of luck as to whether the car behind got a better start.


Well, I watched the starts of the races and every year in the last 6 the leader immediately covered the inside. Did they know or could see something that Bottas couldn't? No.

Its not luck, the cars do have mirrors and at most angles they can see what is behind and hear also. There is just a slight blind spot. Singapore is not comparable because Vettel was looking at Verstapen in his mirror and could see him fine.

What he couldn't see was Kimi (which would be impossible to see as Verstappen car covered him). Singapore was also a wet start, so its much harder to gauge the odds of the third place man being on the inside. Starts are a lot more variable in the wet.

In the dry a driver can gauge immediately how good their own start is and the odds of a third car being there. Also if you watch all the other Brazilian GP starts, the leader moves to the inside so early, the 2nd place man has no option to immediately go to the outside.

Rosberg did this in both 2014 and 2015 to Hamilton - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up7dQu7ZceY

Bottas had plenty of time to do it today - https://streamable.com/v7ddr
In the first 50m (approx) of the start, up to they get to the shadow over the track. Bottas has actually pulled about 1m on Vettel.


Bottas said he had overestimated the grip at the start and got wheelspin, so that may have happened very early and he was probably sorting that out rather than taking a risk while sorting it.

Bottas' pitstop was reported as taking about half a second more than Vettel's?, so maybe without that, Bottas would have made the undercut and won the race? Or maybe if Bottas made the undercut, they would have been slow enough for Hamilton to be somewhere on the podium.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:16 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
When Vettel wasn't pushing, Lauda said so himself. Vettel was just managing the pace.

Plus Hamilton's car was set up perfectly for the race. Also had the optimum strategy and a SC to help out.

And Lauda is supposed to know that better than Vettel himself?
This was a sort of Malaysian GP in reverse (the difference, Merc got both poles) where you said that Ferrari was the car to have with Vettel starting from the back and finishing 4th (37seconds behind the leader, not merely 5 seconds like Hamilton today)... or do you also object that one too now? Why have you changed the standards so much today?


I haven’t said which car was the best to have in Brazil. I’m just watching the race and making an observation that there is no real evidence IMO the Mercedes was superior to Ferrari. Would Vettel have won if he beat Hamilton to the first corner I would say yes, would Hamilton have won if he beat Vettel to the first corner I also say yes. That’s more the nature of F1 and not who has the faster car.
But, isnt the above as much valid for Malaysian GP too, just in reverse?

F1_Ernie wrote:
Other things need to be taken into consideration like a brand new engine which only has to last 2 races with an advantage 15hp, Hamilton starting from 14. Then we go into comparing different circuits, one driver in a championship battle and the other not, a drivers racecraft. Also Vettel was low on fuel at the end of the race and lost time.
Same as Hamilton yesterday, Vettel too had a brand new engine for the race in Malaysia and being low on fuel on the last few laps in Malaysia didnt cost Vettel that many seconds. Its all relative when it comes to fuel consumption... if you push too hard for the most part of the race, you might have to take it easier at the end, or you might race more steadily throughout the race and end up with the same spot with similar (or the same) gap behind the leaders.

F1_Ernie wrote:
Personally I think the Verstappen/RB combo was the fastest package because he put in the fastest lap.
You're joking, right? You know very well why that happen with Verstappen having nothing to loose and pitting for brand new tires with only 7 laps remaining whilst very low on fuel.


Your just trying to compare two different races and say they are the same when there clearly not. Vettel had a new engine but was it a engine Ferrari expected to use for 2 races so they could thrash it from start to finish? Plus Ferrari didn’t bring the updated engine and at least Hamilton had the new and most updated Merc engine. Did Vettel set his car up specifically for the race? I can’t remember. Vettel lost 9 seconds in the last 2 laps, the only reason I mentioned this was because you started talking about gaps from the leaders.
Plus Vettel had a championship to lose at that point, Hamilton had nothing to lose. Which driver has better racecraft? Much more to consider than looking at the final results. It would be like looking at the championship table and thinking the Ferrari has an awful car or Verstappen was the fastest driver in Brazil

Hamilton also started from 14th with a brand new engine and a car set up for the race, he gained 5 seconds through the SC and a number of positions through pitstops and crashes. He gained 3-5 seconds through the optimum strategy then the car was ridiculous but trying to compare it to the Ferrari with an engine with more mileage and running a different race is harsh.

That’s my view and I will keep coming back with the same points.

Yes, you keep coming back with the same irrelevant points to try and make a distinction, at a time when things like the new engine or the setup for the race day, optimum strategy, ect, apply to Malaysia too for Vettel.

And you make yet another irrelevant point to which you dont know the answer when you mention who had more to loose or who could take more risks and interpret it the way it suits you. It could also interpreted that Vettel was already behind in the championship and had to push to the max in Malaysia, whilst with the title secured Hamilton could take it easier. We simply dont know where the truth lies in there.

No, they`re not the same race, but the way events unfolded are very similar. The only difference is that Merc got both poles, and at the end Hamilton was able to put more preasure on the leaders, unlike Vettel. But even if you put that more preasure on the leaders partly because of the SC and partly down to marginally better debatable racecraft from Hamilton (yes, was expecting you`d play the driver card at a time where you were running out of arguments), the simple logic still has Mercedes in Brazil as good, or as dominant as Ferrari was in Malaysia.

Had you argued the same for Vettel/Ferrari in Malaysia (the new engine, race day setup, strategy ect) I wouldnt have a problem... its the different standarts applied that I have problem with, not a fair opinion that might differ from mine.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:40 pm 
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Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Migen wrote:
And Lauda is supposed to know that better than Vettel himself?
This was a sort of Malaysian GP in reverse (the difference, Merc got both poles) where you said that Ferrari was the car to have with Vettel starting from the back and finishing 4th (37seconds behind the leader, not merely 5 seconds like Hamilton today)... or do you also object that one too now? Why have you changed the standards so much today?


I haven’t said which car was the best to have in Brazil. I’m just watching the race and making an observation that there is no real evidence IMO the Mercedes was superior to Ferrari. Would Vettel have won if he beat Hamilton to the first corner I would say yes, would Hamilton have won if he beat Vettel to the first corner I also say yes. That’s more the nature of F1 and not who has the faster car.
But, isnt the above as much valid for Malaysian GP too, just in reverse?

F1_Ernie wrote:
Other things need to be taken into consideration like a brand new engine which only has to last 2 races with an advantage 15hp, Hamilton starting from 14. Then we go into comparing different circuits, one driver in a championship battle and the other not, a drivers racecraft. Also Vettel was low on fuel at the end of the race and lost time.
Same as Hamilton yesterday, Vettel too had a brand new engine for the race in Malaysia and being low on fuel on the last few laps in Malaysia didnt cost Vettel that many seconds. Its all relative when it comes to fuel consumption... if you push too hard for the most part of the race, you might have to take it easier at the end, or you might race more steadily throughout the race and end up with the same spot with similar (or the same) gap behind the leaders.

F1_Ernie wrote:
Personally I think the Verstappen/RB combo was the fastest package because he put in the fastest lap.
You're joking, right? You know very well why that happen with Verstappen having nothing to loose and pitting for brand new tires with only 7 laps remaining whilst very low on fuel.


Your just trying to compare two different races and say they are the same when there clearly not. Vettel had a new engine but was it a engine Ferrari expected to use for 2 races so they could thrash it from start to finish? Plus Ferrari didn’t bring the updated engine and at least Hamilton had the new and most updated Merc engine. Did Vettel set his car up specifically for the race? I can’t remember. Vettel lost 9 seconds in the last 2 laps, the only reason I mentioned this was because you started talking about gaps from the leaders.
Plus Vettel had a championship to lose at that point, Hamilton had nothing to lose. Which driver has better racecraft? Much more to consider than looking at the final results. It would be like looking at the championship table and thinking the Ferrari has an awful car or Verstappen was the fastest driver in Brazil

Hamilton also started from 14th with a brand new engine and a car set up for the race, he gained 5 seconds through the SC and a number of positions through pitstops and crashes. He gained 3-5 seconds through the optimum strategy then the car was ridiculous but trying to compare it to the Ferrari with an engine with more mileage and running a different race is harsh.

That’s my view and I will keep coming back with the same points.

Yes, you keep coming back with the same irrelevant points to try and make a distinction, at a time when things like the new engine or the setup for the race day, optimum strategy, ect, apply to Malaysia too for Vettel.

And you make yet another irrelevant point to which you dont know the answer when you mention who had more to loose or who could take more risks and interpret it the way it suits you. It could also interpreted that Vettel was already behind in the championship and had to push to the max in Malaysia, whilst with the title secured Hamilton could take it easier. We simply dont know where the truth lies in there.

No, they`re not the same race, but the way events unfolded are very similar. The only difference is that Merc got both poles, and at the end Hamilton was able to put more preasure on the leaders, unlike Vettel. But even if you put that more preasure on the leaders partly because of the SC and partly down to marginally better debatable racecraft from Hamilton (yes, was expecting you`d play the driver card at a time where you were running out of arguments), the simple logic still has Mercedes in Brazil as good, or as dominant as Ferrari was in Malaysia.

Had you argued the same for Vettel/Ferrari in Malaysia (the new engine, race day setup, strategy ect) I wouldnt have a problem... its the different standarts applied that I have problem with, not a fair opinion that might differ from mine.


All my points might be irrelevant to you but I'm not just look at the racing results.

Was Vettel able to thrash his engine for a whole race like Hamilton in Brazil?
Different circuits like I said before.
I brought the driver card up straight away, it's an obvious varable, is there many people who would say Vettel has better race craft than Hamilton? Doubt it.
Regarding different scenarios in a drivers mindset is a valid point, was exactly showed by Hamilton in Mexico.

If you think Brazil and Malaysia was identical then go for it. Poles make no difference to the race pace.

Regarding the finishing time behind the leading driver is a different subject which can be covered by some of the above points but also SC, drivers crashing/pitting and was Vettel pushing.

The standards I see on this forum are generally if Mercedes finishes 2 seconds in front of Ferrari then it was the better car, I'm pretty sure if that is reversed then the Ferrari wouldn't be marked down as the faster car.

Like I said that's my view.

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Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:50 pm 
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gregwil wrote:
Vettel had a number of races where he finished in a lower position than he should have becuase of tyre blow outs, his front wing was clipped on a number of occassions by Kamakazi Max, he had a race where he couldn't qualify due to technical issues with the car (Hamilton did mess up his own qualifying in Brazil) etc. So this is looking at the average race finishing throughout the season regardless of why they finished where they did as long as they crossed the finishing line at the end of the race.

As long as Senna didn't cross the finishing line in Canada then this should be counted as a retirement when looking at the average finishing poitions.

Funny enough if average finishing positions are taken into account, Hamilton actually finished in the highest average position is 2010 and Alonso the highest position in 2012. Vettel finished in a higher position than Button in 2009 and Kimi finished in the highest position in 2008. Other than that over the past 10 years the driver that won the WDC has been in the highest average finishing position except for this year.

Anyway it is just an interesting way to look back at seasons obviously average finishing positions couldn't be implemented in the WDC as a driver could just retire in races when his average position is high, for instance if Vettel retired next race then his average finishing poition would be higher than Hamilton's even if Hamilton won the race but if Hamilton wins the race and Vettel finishes the race in a position lower than 4th the Hamilton's average would be higher.

Also my post was in response to guys saying that Vettel was only good when others where not competetive but these stats (including the fact that Vettel led the first 12 races) actually suggest that it was Hamilton who was only leading the WDC becuase of the issues Vettel had had throughout the season, just removing the two retirements Vettel could well be still leading the WDC and would at the very least still be in with a shout. But the WDC includes any retirements etc which is fair so he is not in with a shout which is fine but it is not right to suggest that he is not at the very least as good as Hamilton and in my opinion he is better.



The specific part is was calling out was this - "these stats also show more that if Vettel was in the same car as Hamilton and neither had any issues throughout the season then Vettel would come out on top"

So if Vettel finishes 10th in AD because he gets a late puncture will you have to change the opinion above? These stats do not prove that at all, that may well be your opinion but this particular stat does not back that opinion up.

The point system over rewards P1. Its +7 over P2, whilst P2 to P3 is just +3.

1 1 7 is better than 2 2 2
(56 points vs 54 points)
3.0 v 2.0 average finishing position

Hamilton did better in Spa, China and Monaco (1 1 7) than Vettel did in Spa, China and Spain (2 2 2) although Vettels average is a whole 1 position ahead.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:59 pm 
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babararacucudada wrote:
lamo wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
lamo wrote:
I was rooting for Bottas today but his defence into turn 1 lost him a race win. What was he thinking? Did he not watch any of the previous starts at Brazil, cover the inside and you maintain the lead almost 100% of the time. He made an equal initial get away to Vettel, he had the race won if he covered the inside right away.

The camera angle they used for the start was ridiculous too, you couldn't tell who was in front.

Overall it was an entertaining race though.

That’s true but I’m Bottas’ defence he wouldn’t have been able to see Vettel’s car so he wouldn’t have known if Vettel had got a better launch or just an equal one.

Sweeping to the left to cover the inside cost Vettel dearly in Singapore. Bottas doing so here would have only been the same as he couldn’t see Vettel just as in Singapore Vettel couldn’t see Max/Kimi so at that point it’s just a game of luck as to whether the car behind got a better start.


Well, I watched the starts of the races and every year in the last 6 the leader immediately covered the inside. Did they know or could see something that Bottas couldn't? No.

Its not luck, the cars do have mirrors and at most angles they can see what is behind and hear also. There is just a slight blind spot. Singapore is not comparable because Vettel was looking at Verstapen in his mirror and could see him fine.

What he couldn't see was Kimi (which would be impossible to see as Verstappen car covered him). Singapore was also a wet start, so its much harder to gauge the odds of the third place man being on the inside. Starts are a lot more variable in the wet.

In the dry a driver can gauge immediately how good their own start is and the odds of a third car being there. Also if you watch all the other Brazilian GP starts, the leader moves to the inside so early, the 2nd place man has no option to immediately go to the outside.

Rosberg did this in both 2014 and 2015 to Hamilton - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up7dQu7ZceY

Bottas had plenty of time to do it today - https://streamable.com/v7ddr
In the first 50m (approx) of the start, up to they get to the shadow over the track. Bottas has actually pulled about 1m on Vettel.


Bottas said he had overestimated the grip at the start and got wheelspin, so that may have happened very early and he was probably sorting that out rather than taking a risk while sorting it.

Bottas' pitstop was reported as taking about half a second more than Vettel's?, so maybe without that, Bottas would have made the undercut and won the race? Or maybe if Bottas made the undercut, they would have been slow enough for Hamilton to be somewhere on the podium.


He was unlucky with the undercut, he did some solid laps then. However, if he took the lead and held everybody up. Hamilton would not have been able to pass in a DRS train. If Kimi was being dragged along by the DRS from Vettel then Hamilton would have no chance.

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