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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:46 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Alfa Romeo gets top billing? That's pretty amazing, isn't it?

Money talks. After all, McLaren went through a period where they were named Vodafone McLaren Mercedes, not McLaren Vodafone Mercedes


Yeah, I guess my memory isnt that good. I was thinking as Alfa being part of the team, like an engine supplier. As a sponsor, getting top billing makes sense.

Will the engines be branded Alfa as well?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:52 am 
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Hypothetical question for you all - do we think this is the first step to Maranello [or some other part of the company] buying the team outright to make it a second works team, a direct junior to Ferrari? Which in turn begs the question what happens with the Haas arrangement, although that's probably a matter for another thread.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:12 pm 
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P-F1 Mod wrote:
Hypothetical question for you all - do we think this is the first step to Maranello [or some other part of the company] buying the team outright to make it a second works team, a direct junior to Ferrari? Which in turn begs the question what happens with the Haas arrangement, although that's probably a matter for another thread.


Actually, isn't Alfa Romeo owned by Fiat?

Ferrari was spun off by Fiat and according to Wikipedia, this was completed in January of last year.

So there it appears to me that there's no connection anymore between Ferrari and Alfa.

Correct?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:25 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
Hypothetical question for you all - do we think this is the first step to Maranello [or some other part of the company] buying the team outright to make it a second works team, a direct junior to Ferrari? Which in turn begs the question what happens with the Haas arrangement, although that's probably a matter for another thread.


Actually, isn't Alfa Romeo owned by Fiat?

Ferrari was spun off by Fiat and according to Wikipedia, this was completed in January of last year.

So there it appears to me that there's no connection anymore between Ferrari and Alfa.

Correct?

Honestly I've lost track, but if they're badging a Ferrari, there must be some connection.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:27 pm 
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IIRC although Ferrari is now separate from FCA most of the stock and positions of power are still held by those who held it before. So although different entities they're controlled by the same people.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:41 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
IIRC although Ferrari is now separate from FCA most of the stock and positions of power are still held by those who held it before. So although different entities they're controlled by the same people.


This is only partially correct. The shareholders of Fiat Chrysler own 90% of Ferrari, but the company Fiat itself has no ownership of Ferrari.

For example, if I owned shares of Fiat Chrysler, after the separation, I would own shares of both Fiat Chrysler and Ferrari.

Fiat has no control at all over Ferrari. They by design, were separated from Ferrari.

Conversely, Alfa Romeo is owned outright by Fiat Chrysler.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:01 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
IIRC although Ferrari is now separate from FCA most of the stock and positions of power are still held by those who held it before. So although different entities they're controlled by the same people.


This is only partially correct. The shareholders of Fiat Chrysler own 90% of Ferrari, but the company Fiat itself has no ownership of Ferrari.

For example, if I owned shares of Fiat Chrysler, after the separation, I would own shares of both Fiat Chrysler and Ferrari.

Fiat has no control at all over Ferrari. They by design, were separated from Ferrari.

Conversely, Alfa Romeo is owned outright by Fiat Chrysler.

Sergio Marchionne is still the CEO of both FCA and Ferrari so as I said above "different entities controlled by the same people."

They are different companies but really in name only therefore making it much easier to re-brand a Ferrari PU as Alpha Romeo and slap it in the back of the Sauber chassis.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:58 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
IIRC although Ferrari is now separate from FCA most of the stock and positions of power are still held by those who held it before. So although different entities they're controlled by the same people.


This is only partially correct. The shareholders of Fiat Chrysler own 90% of Ferrari, but the company Fiat itself has no ownership of Ferrari.

For example, if I owned shares of Fiat Chrysler, after the separation, I would own shares of both Fiat Chrysler and Ferrari.

Fiat has no control at all over Ferrari. They by design, were separated from Ferrari.

Conversely, Alfa Romeo is owned outright by Fiat Chrysler.

Sergio Marchionne is still the CEO of both FCA and Ferrari so as I said above "different entities controlled by the same people."

They are different companies but really in name only therefore making it much easier to re-brand a Ferrari PU as Alpha Romeo and slap it in the back of the Sauber chassis.


OK, well that makes a big difference. Hardly separate if you have the same CEO. Still, looking at that guy's resume, he hardly has time to worry about F1. He's CEO and or Chairman of about half a dozen companies if not more!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:58 pm 
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Indeed... a rather remarkable man.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:09 pm 
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Mildly off topic, but Joe Saward has done a piece on a man who was very, very involved in Alfa's pre war racing, and then a lot more afterwards, it's a good read and a bit of insight into the history

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017/11 ... f1-fact-1/

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:03 pm 
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P-F1 Mod wrote:
Hypothetical question for you all - do we think this is the first step to Maranello [or some other part of the company] buying the team outright to make it a second works team, a direct junior to Ferrari? Which in turn begs the question what happens with the Haas arrangement, although that's probably a matter for another thread.

Effectively this is what has happened. Ferrari supplying the drivetrain and re-badging them as Alfa-Romeo and the team being renamed Alfa-Romeo so Ferrari can filter through their development drivers but Ericson's money seems like it's going to allow him to retain his seat. Wherlin on the other hand seems to be out of a seat to make way for a driver from Ferrari's talent pool.

My only wonder is if the cars will be Rosso Corsa to continue with the tradition of the brand and it's history.

Whether Ferrari will buy them or not is difficult to say, but I'd venture to say I doubt it, though Ferrari have relied on Sauber's wind tunnel heavily the last several years and by buying the team they wouldn't have to pay to use it, and wind tunnel time is not cheap!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:39 pm 
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This is good news for Sauber.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:09 pm 
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I'm not so sure about that. At least not entirely.

While it will be financially beneficial for Sauber, the same way Red Bull keep Toro Rosso on a short leash, I feel Ferrari/Fiat will make sure Sauber doesn't ever challenge the mother team and if and when Ferrari needs help, they'll have 2 other cars on track to assist. If they were to give Sauber full freedom to scrap it out with Ferrari 100% fair and square, then I would agree it's 100% good for Sauber.

Hopefully Sauber can shoot out of the gate in 2018 with a much better car because they've paid more dues than you can think of and it would be great for them if they yielded vastly improved results.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:25 pm 
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BMW Sauber went okay.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:40 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
I'm not so sure about that. At least not entirely.

While it will be financially beneficial for Sauber, the same way Red Bull keep Toro Rosso on a short leash, I feel Ferrari/Fiat will make sure Sauber doesn't ever challenge the mother team and if and when Ferrari needs help, they'll have 2 other cars on track to assist. If they were to give Sauber full freedom to scrap it out with Ferrari 100% fair and square, then I would agree it's 100% good for Sauber.

Hopefully Sauber can shoot out of the gate in 2018 with a much better car because they've paid more dues than you can think of and it would be great for them if they yielded vastly improved results.

I'd pretty sure that they'll be accused of intentionally holding up others whether they do or not.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:31 pm 
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Sauber will talk with Ferrari about the drivers. If they are smart, they will snatch Wehrlein for a year in Sauber, and put it in Ferrari as soon as Kimi is out.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:28 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
I'm not so sure about that. At least not entirely.

While it will be financially beneficial for Sauber, the same way Red Bull keep Toro Rosso on a short leash, I feel Ferrari/Fiat will make sure Sauber doesn't ever challenge the mother team and if and when Ferrari needs help, they'll have 2 other cars on track to assist. If they were to give Sauber full freedom to scrap it out with Ferrari 100% fair and square, then I would agree it's 100% good for Sauber.

Hopefully Sauber can shoot out of the gate in 2018 with a much better car because they've paid more dues than you can think of and it would be great for them if they yielded vastly improved results.

I'd pretty sure that they'll be accused of intentionally holding up others whether they do or not.

Very true


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:22 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Sauber will talk with Ferrari about the drivers. If they are smart, they will snatch Wehrlein for a year in Sauber, and put it in Ferrari as soon as Kimi is out.

Really? You rate Wehrlein that highly?

I'd like to see him stay on for 2018, but only as a decent benchmark for Leclerc. I'd be very surprised if Pascal turns out to be the quicker of the two.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:34 pm 
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[color=#000080][/color]
RaggedMan wrote:
IIRC although Ferrari is now separate from FCA most of the stock and positions of power are still held by those who held it before. So although different entities they're controlled by the same people.


:thumbup:

ATM, that's true. But of course every Ferrari shareholder is now free to sell his shares to whoever he wants. Thus, it is just a question of time before the separation will also be reflected in the persons owning and running Ferrari.

Alfa Romeo's entry may be a strategy to establish a junior team. Or it may also be a strategy to establish Fiat-Chrysler in F1 after the separation. We will know in a couple of years.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:02 pm 
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I think Wehrlein's time is up in F1 for now, perhaps unfairly too. As for Haas, I imagine they were probably offered this sort of deal prior to Sauber, but Haas is in F1 to promote the Haas brand, not have it diluted by pushing Alfa Romeo for FCA as well. Sauber wise, its certainly the more stable short term move, but things change quickly in F1 and being the 'B' team is not always ideal.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:22 pm 
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So it's Ericsson and Leclerc for 2018.

Image
Source Motorsport.com

Sauber has unveiled its livery concept for the 2018 Formula 1 season, which features significant branding for new title sponsor Alfa Romeo.
The Swiss team announced Marcus Ericsson and Charles Leclerc as its 2018 race drivers at a launch event near Milan, with Antonio Giovinazzi as third driver.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/133398/sauber-reveals-alfa-romeo-livery-design
Source: Autosport.com

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:45 pm 
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I like it, it's minimal but I also liked the look of the 2010-2012 Saubers. There's another angle at https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/saub ... ry-985172/

I'm disappointed but not surprised to see Wehrlein out. Hopefully he can get a 3rd driver slot somewhere but where would he go now? Maybe Haas since Giovinazzi is now @ Sauber?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:25 pm 
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Sauber have revealed the Alfa Romeo livery, but also revealed they can only afford an iPhone 3G to take official publicity photographs with, based on the image quality:



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:30 pm 
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I rather like the livery as well. I was suspecting leClerc or Giovinazzi would get the seat with the Ferrari connection. Ferrari pretty much had to find a seat for at least one of them.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:39 pm 
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Another missed chance to stun the world with the properly executed livery. What is this, an engine cover from Ferrari, and the rest is unfinished factory product? Is it so hard to make something pleasing to the eye?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:40 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Another missed chance to stun the world with the properly executed livery. What is this, an engine cover from Ferrari, and the rest is unfinished factory product? Is it so hard to make something pleasing to the eye?


I expect Leclerc to dominate Ericsson.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:47 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Another missed chance to stun the world with the properly executed livery. What is this, an engine cover from Ferrari, and the rest is unfinished factory product? Is it so hard to make something pleasing to the eye?


I expect Leclerc to dominate Ericsson.


I would be surprised if he outscored Ericsson in his rookie season.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:25 pm 
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Looks like Toyota to me

I thought Alfa was green?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:59 pm 
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Like the livery.

I'll be looking forward to how Leclerc goes next year

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:14 pm 
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moby wrote:
Looks like Toyota to me

I thought Alfa was green?

I think that's Aston. Alfa's racing colours are traditionally red and white.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:58 pm 
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Could they not find a more modern chassis to paint? F1 cars don't even really look like that anymore.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:22 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Could they not find a more modern chassis to paint? F1 cars don't even really look like that anymore.

I think regulations say it has to be at least 3 years old, so the newest they'd have been allowed to paint would have been a 2014 car. Although I think they could have just made a straight mock-up of a 2017 car - not the real thing, just a model - and been allowed to paint that.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:19 pm 
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wolfticket wrote:
moby wrote:
Looks like Toyota to me

I thought Alfa was green?

I think that's Aston. Alfa's racing colours are traditionally red and white.



I was thinking of the Jorden Alfa, but the green was probably 7up colours.


Image


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:09 pm 
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moby wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
moby wrote:
Looks like Toyota to me

I thought Alfa was green?

I think that's Aston. Alfa's racing colours are traditionally red and white.



I was thinking of the Jorden Alfa, but the green was probably 7up colours.


Image

These were Benetton colors, main sponsor. When next year (1986) Benetton bought Toleman, they had that green color as well, with Gerhard Berger and Teo Fabi,

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:20 pm 
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Image

These are the Alfa's of the 70-80's. Originally Alfa cars were red, but then sponsors dictated the change of the livery to Marlboro shaped red-white and green subsequently.

Source: pinimg.com

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:00 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Originally Alfa cars were red, but then sponsors dictated the change of the livery to Marlboro shaped red-white and green subsequently.

Originally Alfas were red because it was the Italian racing color, not because it was their own. Ferrari was red for exactly the same reason, the only difference is that now that nobody races in national colors Ferrari kept it and made it synonymous with their own brand.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:41 pm 
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I'm glad it has that dark red

I'd like to see the majority or the car painted that colour


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:18 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Another missed chance to stun the world with the properly executed livery. What is this, an engine cover from Ferrari, and the rest is unfinished factory product? Is it so hard to make something pleasing to the eye?


I expect Leclerc to dominate Ericsson.


I would be surprised if he outscored Ericsson in his rookie season.

That is what I think. Many seemed to have really high expectations of Wehrlein to dominate Ericsson. He most certainly didn't. The average qualifying gap difference was the smallest out of all the teams. It was in Wehrlein favour but only just. Then race pace wise, they have been really similar too. Ericsson just makes more mistakes.

Then people had really high expectations of Vandoorne and his first half of the season really wasn't great. I think it is pretty unlikely that Leclerc will be better than Ericsson next year. But that could well change later on if both remain the year after.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:15 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Another missed chance to stun the world with the properly executed livery. What is this, an engine cover from Ferrari, and the rest is unfinished factory product? Is it so hard to make something pleasing to the eye?


I expect Leclerc to dominate Ericsson.


I would be surprised if he outscored Ericsson in his rookie season.

That is what I think. Many seemed to have really high expectations of Wehrlein to dominate Ericsson. He most certainly didn't. The average qualifying gap difference was the smallest out of all the teams. It was in Wehrlein favour but only just. Then race pace wise, they have been really similar too. Ericsson just makes more mistakes.

Then people had really high expectations of Vandoorne and his first half of the season really wasn't great. I think it is pretty unlikely that Leclerc will be better than Ericsson next year. But that could well change later on if both remain the year after.


Hardly anybody outscores and experienced team mate as a rookie. Of the current grid of 20 drivers Bottas is the only one to do it.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:36 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Another missed chance to stun the world with the properly executed livery. What is this, an engine cover from Ferrari, and the rest is unfinished factory product? Is it so hard to make something pleasing to the eye?


I expect Leclerc to dominate Ericsson.


I would be surprised if he outscored Ericsson in his rookie season.

That is what I think. Many seemed to have really high expectations of Wehrlein to dominate Ericsson. He most certainly didn't. The average qualifying gap difference was the smallest out of all the teams. It was in Wehrlein favour but only just. Then race pace wise, they have been really similar too. Ericsson just makes more mistakes.

Then people had really high expectations of Vandoorne and his first half of the season really wasn't great. I think it is pretty unlikely that Leclerc will be better than Ericsson next year. But that could well change later on if both remain the year after.


Hardly anybody outscores and experienced team mate as a rookie. Of the current grid of 20 drivers Bottas is the only one to do it.


Points wise, if Sauber are as bad as this year, then is could well be possible for Leclerc to outscore Ericsson if they happen to get his strategy right more than with Ericsson. That will make many think he's had a better season. But what I very much doubt is that he will out drive Ericsson. Sauber have to take risks and it often ends up making one of their drivers look much better just because of the points. That is effectively what Happened with Wehrlein this year. The point makes him look much better than Ericsson over the past 2 years, but there isn't a massive difference. If Sauber manage to every now and then fight for the points like they did in 2015, then I certainly expect Ericsson to outscore him in the first year.


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