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What is up Toro Rosso?
http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14694
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Author:  emb1496 [ Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:  What is up Toro Rosso?

So they start the year well with Kvyat and Sainz.
2 relatively highly regarded drivers.
Sainz -> Renault,
Kvyat torpedoes his own career,
They bring Gasly in and Hartley two weeks later,
Now Hartley starting last and Gasly 17? I think.
Regardless they seem to be going backwards and instead of doing something it looks like they are embracing their new positions at the back?! Someone please explain why?

Author:  Paolo_Lasardi [ Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

Hartley too slow, Gasly too inexperienced?

Author:  moby [ Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

emb1496 wrote:
So they start the year well with Kvyat and Sainz.
2 relatively highly regarded drivers.
Sainz -> Renault,
Kvyat torpedoes his own career,
They bring Gasly in and Hartley two weeks later,
Now Hartley starting last and Gasly 17? I think.
Regardless they seem to be going backwards and instead of doing something it looks like they are embracing their new positions at the back?! Someone please explain why?


Could it all be about getting a good engine for the 'A' team? And maybe selling off the team in a condition they do not need to be concerned about?

Author:  Exediron [ Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

Hard to say, but to play the Devil's Advocate I would have to point out that both Sainz and Kvyat scored points in their last finish for the team...

Maybe it's not the car that's gone backwards recently?

Author:  emb1496 [ Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

Exediron wrote:
Hard to say, but to play the Devil's Advocate I would have to point out that both Sainz and Kvyat scored points in their last finish for the team...

Maybe it's not the car that's gone backwards recently?

You're correct I don't think the cars gone backwards or at least not as far back as the back of the grid. My point was why are they accepting mediocrity. Clearly the team knows that they can switch drivers midseason. Why not bring back Kvyat. He did drive for red bull or throw in more Junior drivers until they find someone impressive. They seem to have accepted that they won't find anyone on short notice which I dont understand as red bull young driver program has been rich with talent (Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen, and kind of Sainz and Kvyat as they did show they could hold their own when the latter wasn't busy trying to find Vettels car).

Author:  wolfticket [ Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

At least they have a new engine to look forward to next year...

Author:  BMWSauber84 [ Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

Exediron wrote:
Hard to say, but to play the Devil's Advocate I would have to point out that both Sainz and Kvyat scored points in their last finish for the team...

Maybe it's not the car that's gone backwards recently?


It's hard to be too tough on the drivers. Coming in mid-season is tough. Torro Rosso should have kept Kvyat. It is pure common sense to keep one experienced driver on board to the end of the season.

Author:  Herb Tarlik [ Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

wolfticket wrote:
At least they have a new engine to look forward to next year...


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Author:  kleefton [ Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

You'd have to think they'll be dead last in the pecking order for the 2018 season; inexperienced drivers with questionable talent + honda engines = a season of disaster.

Author:  emb1496 [ Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

kleefton wrote:
You'd have to think they'll be dead last in the pecking order for the 2018 season; inexperienced drivers with questionable talent + honda engines = a season of disaster.

Oh yeah! This was on my list to mention and I forgot! In what world do these moves make sense?

Author:  Herb Tarlik [ Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

kleefton wrote:
You'd have to think they'll be dead last in the pecking order for the 2018 season; inexperienced drivers with questionable talent + honda engines = a season of disaster.


With only 3 engines allowed for the whole season next year, Honda powered cars are in for a huge world of hurt.

Author:  emb1496 [ Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

Imagine the Honda engine somehow comes together past the Renault πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

Author:  Llotyhy [ Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

That there are some doubts regarding the talent of Hartley is fine, but are we really questioning Gasly as well? The guy had a better junior career than most.

Author:  TheGiantHogweed [ Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

I said this before, I really think that should have kept either Sainz or Kvyat rather than going for 2 drivers that are basically new to F1. Even though Kvyat hasn't been the best this year, I think he will easily be stronger than either of these 2 are currently. And with a fresh start next year without the pressure from Sainz beside him, he may have been able to bring his 2015 performance back. I think the team are mainly being let down by having 2 new drivers mid season. I guess it will help them next year that they have at least some experience, but getting rid of both Sainz and Kvyat somehow suggests they are focussing more on next year rather than their performance this year.

Author:  RaggedMan [ Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

If Kyvat is a bit pycologically broken already he'd totally break if Gasly got the upper hand early on.

What I haven't seen anybody.mention is the fact the since the current two drivers cane aboard Renault PU' have been exploding left, right, and center to the point that TR might not have been able to run this weekend if they'd had any failure in brazil.

Running newbies is Toro Rossos raison 'd Γͺtre and, as we've seen the last few years, for the most part it won't matter much how good the drivers until Honda comes good.

Author:  j man [ Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

I guess a combination of running out of engines, swapping out their drivers for inferior ones and having a smaller development budget than most of their rivals.

Author:  emb1496 [ Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

So they finished 2nd and 3rd to last Gasly looked the better driver but spun and finished behind Hartley. One of the commentators mentioned both drivers are confirmed for 2018.

The Toro Rosso's got sandwiched by the two Saubers, they had nothing to offer Renault or Haas or Mclaren or Williams in terms of pace. I really can't see them getting any better next year with even worse engines.

I've been proven wrong before just hope for their sake that I am wrong again.

Author:  Blinky McSquinty [ Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

This illustrates just how valuable Kvyat and Sainz were. With them absent, the knowledge base of the drivers was reset with new faces, and it is reflected in the results. This is exactly why Williams enticed Massa out of retirement, you must have a continuity in drive experience in that specific car.

The engineers have no reference points in what they can decide on.

Author:  Flash2k11 [ Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

emb1496 wrote:
So they finished 2nd and 3rd to last Gasly looked the better driver but spun and finished behind Hartley. One of the commentators mentioned both drivers are confirmed for 2018.

The Toro Rosso's got sandwiched by the two Saubers, they had nothing to offer Renault or Haas or Mclaren or Williams in terms of pace. I really can't see them getting any better next year with even worse engines.

I've been proven wrong before just hope for their sake that I am wrong again.


To be fair to them this race, it sounded like those Renault engines had been detuned to the point of uselessness because there simply wasn't any replacement parts for them so a failure would have been the end of their participation this weekend (a scandal in and of itself, but thats for another topic). Still not sold on the lineup though, surely even drafting someone like Buemi back in would have been a better alternative to paying off Ganassi for Hartley?

Author:  Armchair Expert [ Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

Flash2k11 wrote:
Still not sold on the lineup though, surely even drafting someone like Buemi back in would have been a better alternative to paying off Ganassi for Hartley?


Do you think Toro Rosso haven't considered Buemi then?

Author:  colinp [ Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

i was thinking the same thing about whats happend here... alot of talk was about not having enough money to keep up with the development race....

i just see one problem with that.. Sauber running what could be called a two year old engine design and zero money with one average driver and one pay driver.

either sauber made an incredibel car or toro rosso have fallen backwards with theres

Author:  tootsie323 [ Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

I don't think that Hartley has started a single race without some form of engine / component-related grid penalty (pretty sure that Gasly has suffered from at least on instance of this as well). Couple that with the suspicion that the engines have been 'dumbed down' to ensure reliability, there is not an awful lot that the new drivers can do in terms of pushing the team onwards in terms of points scoring.

Author:  Bentrovato [ Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

Shouldn't really be a surprise here... They know (and I agree) that Kvyat wasn't going to be a star. Sainz could be but they also received an attractive offer from Renault and if Red Bull isn't an option for him, then it was smarter to accept Renault's offer. Considering they have Honda engines next year, it is a great time to give rookies a shot and see what they can do. Especially because Toro Rosso is supposed to be a young driver breeding ground.

Author:  emb1496 [ Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

Bentrovato wrote:
Shouldn't really be a surprise here... They know (and I agree) that Kvyat wasn't going to be a star. Sainz could be but they also received an attractive offer from Renault and if Red Bull isn't an option for him, then it was smarter to accept Renault's offer. Considering they have Honda engines next year, it is a great time to give rookies a shot and see what they can do. Especially because Toro Rosso is supposed to be a young driver breeding ground.

I agree with almost everything you said. I think they would have been better off keeping one variable in the equation static. Meaning that Gasly looks to be a great driver, lets pair him up with Kvyat/Sainz and next season they would have a baseline between the two engines in the veteran driver and a measuring stick for Gasly. By putting Gasly with Hartley we don't know how they are in comparison to other drivers on the field and even with the two races they have run I don't know if they will have a solid baseline of each driver with Renault to compare to the Honda motors they run next year.

For all we know Gasly may outperform Hartley by a serious margin and still be slower than say a Wehrlein or Ericsson or even a Kvyat.

Author:  ReservoirDog [ Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

In 2018, they'll have two worthless drivers and a worthless engine. Some team!

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

ReservoirDog wrote:
In 2018, they'll have two worthless drivers and a worthless engine. Some team!


They will have a GP2 champion and a WEC champion. Hardly worthless.

Author:  Exediron [ Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
In 2018, they'll have two worthless drivers and a worthless engine. Some team!

They will have a GP2 champion and a WEC champion. Hardly worthless.

Well, Palmer was a GP2 champion... just sayin'.

But I don't think Gasly and Hartley are worthless, just inexperienced. Being dropped into a car mid-season can make anyone look bad - just look at Fisi in 2009.

Author:  funkymonkey [ Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

Frankly, their handling of Kvyat sucked. It sucked when he was sacked from Redbull and it sucked again this year. Nobody deserves that even after what happened in Sochi (and I am Ferrai fan, it sucked to see what happened but still...). Specially when you got the podium just 1 race before.
That is harsh no matter how you look at it. And what happened with Kvyat after that we all know. I hope he just breaks all ties with Redbull completely and makes his career somewhere else, be it in F1 or outside F1.
Sainz, I think they had to let him go as otherwise he would have walked away from RedBull. Personally, I am not sure about Sainz. I know lot of people regard him as future superstar, but I am not yet convinced. But he had been getting good results (though making stupid mistake at the same time) and it was getting hard for RedBull to keep him tied up in the junior team. I am sure he had promote or exit clause in his contract for certain performance.
With 2018 lineup at RedBull fixed, they had no way to promote Sainz, and this is the only way they could have kept him on their roster and contracted to them by allowing him to go to Renault. This way if Daniel decides he is leaving RedBull in 2019, they can have Sainz back in there. Otherwise they would have had to let him go and potentially tied down to some other team on multi year contract.

So I guess, TR were out of options and had no choice but to race these 2 in last few races.

I will reserve my judgement on both these drivers for now and lets see how they start 2018 with full pre season winter testing in F1 car behind them. Jumping in middle of season is never easy for anyone.

Author:  Randine [ Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

funkymonkey wrote:
Frankly, their handling of Kvyat sucked. It sucked when he was sacked from Redbull and it sucked again this year. Nobody deserves that even after what happened in Sochi (and I am Ferrai fan, it sucked to see what happened but still...). Specially when you got the podium just 1 race before.
That is harsh no matter how you look at it. And what happened with Kvyat after that we all know. I hope he just breaks all ties with Redbull completely and makes his career somewhere else, be it in F1 or outside F1.
Sainz, I think they had to let him go as otherwise he would have walked away from RedBull. Personally, I am not sure about Sainz. I know lot of people regard him as future superstar, but I am not yet convinced. But he had been getting good results (though making stupid mistake at the same time) and it was getting hard for RedBull to keep him tied up in the junior team. I am sure he had promote or exit clause in his contract for certain performance.
With 2018 lineup at RedBull fixed, they had no way to promote Sainz, and this is the only way they could have kept him on their roster and contracted to them by allowing him to go to Renault. This way if Daniel decides he is leaving RedBull in 2019, they can have Sainz back in there. Otherwise they would have had to let him go and potentially tied down to some other team on multi year contract.

So I guess, TR were out of options and had no choice but to race these 2 in last few races.

I will reserve my judgement on both these drivers for now and lets see how they start 2018 with full pre season winter testing in F1 car behind them. Jumping in middle of season is never easy for anyone.


Yeah, their treatment of Kvyat was terrible. He is still only 23!!!
So I think in the right environment and with a bit of support, he could actually be half decent. I think if Williams took a chance on him, then he would easier show up Stroll.
imho, I think he is their best option. (out of Kubica, Di Resta etc)

Mark Webber was talking about Hartley saying his strength was in fuel conservation. He was apparently a master at it.
He is a 2 x WEC champion, so he must be both quick and reliable. Maybe he needs to adjust his style to get more out of F1 cars.

I think both new guys were probably more conservative than normal. What is worse, crashing the car constantly and being quick, or being slightly off the pace and bringing home the car?
They did their job and secured a contract for 2018. Next year is really when we can start judging them.
Even if Hartley isn't that quick, I think his experience in WEC will really help Honda with the engine development.

Re Gasly, I don't know much about him, and there aren't too many guys out there that qualify for a super license that also aren't contracted to Merc, Ferrari or McLaren.

edit: re the car.
It might be that the chassis needs to be redesigned around the honda engine, and they decided to stop all updates after they signed for Honda.
The Renault reliability certainly didn't help them...

Author:  Yellowbin74 [ Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is up Toro Rosso?

I think Renault reliability wasn't great - all the best engines went to Renault and Red Bull. (although Max had many issues early season)

Slightly off topic - it begs the question, what will happen next season - McLaren will want top notch engines, can Renault supply that many top spec units?

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