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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:31 pm 
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In my opinion, the primary SAFETY change that DIRECTLY occurred after the Senna (Ratzenburger and Barrichello) accidents of 1994, was the requirement to enclose more of the cockpit to protect the driver from object intrusion (like the suspension arm that killed Senna).

An excellent review of this cockpit modification is shown (pics and diagrams, Williams '94 vs '95) in this article, (half way down)...

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/tech ... epped.html

The article above makes a distinction between safety changes... and racing regulation changes to slow the cars, such as changes in engine displacement, configuration, active suspension, underbody planks, etc. The article confirms the reduction in engine capacity from 3.5 to 2.0 liters occurred for 1995.

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Last edited by MB-BOB on Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:41 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Benetton had a big change from 1994 to 1995, Williams did not. So I don't get your point? Benetton needed a competitive 3.0 litre engine, Ford could not offer them one. So either way Benetton were going to significantly change going from 1994 to 1995 as Ford did not develop a works 3.0 litre engine. That is why Benetton left them, Fords budget was about 1/4 of Renaults. The cars were also similar weights in 1994 and 1995. With the engines switching to 3.0 it also favored a V10.

Benetton had to intergrate the larger V10 Renault quite late in the season once the 1995 car was well into its development. This is why in part this car is without doubt the worst car Schumacher won a title in and consider very hard to setup and always on a knife edge, it was not a good car. He won the title because the drivers in the cars better or equal to it were no where near as good as Schumacher (Both Williams and Ferrari drivers).

Williams knew all along they would be switching to the V10 3.0 and was quick right away, Hill should have won the first 3 races of 1995. Your post was in relation to Senna adapting to 1995 rules, what did he have to adapt to exactly and why would you suggest such when history shows him as probably the most adaptable driver of all time. 1994-1995 would have been one of the more stable periods during Senna's career.

No, you got me completely wrong, as I think you didn't follow the conversation. What I'm saying is that the changes of 1995 rules were a direct effect of Senna's death. They decided to slow down the cars, take out HP and wing, along with the chassis design and testing changes in order to make the cars safer. So in the "if that hadn't happened" scenario, then the Benetton would probably not have changed so drastically. So it is probably not a fair assessment of what would have happened in 1995 had Senna not died, as the cars would probably not have changed. Benetton with the nice and light V8 may have come on top if they focused their development on the '94 car. So in effect Schumacher could have beaten Senna, at least in 1995, which was what we were arguing.

Is this clearer? It has nothing to do with Senna's adaptability. It may be way off the mark, but this is my train of thought as to how they may have fared in 1995.


I am pretty sure the decision to switch to 3.0 litre occurred before Senna's death. Benetton were already on that path for 1995.

Senna among team bosses and other drivers were already calling for changes to the sport due to the amount of big accidents that had already occurred prior to Imola in which there was also 2 huge accidents and of course Ratzenberger's death. The cars were already on course to be slowed down made more stable even if Senna survived his accident.

The Benetton was also only ever quicker than the Williams for the first 5-6 races when the Williams was below par having all its gadgets removed. Schumacher lapped Hill in 3 of first 4 races and was a minute ahead in the other when Hill retired. By the end of 1994 Damon Hill was on Schumacher's pace, which tells you all you need to know about the relative pace of the cars. Hill matched him in adelaide and beat him in the wet in Japan as well as running him close in Jerez. The last 3 races of the year.


Indeed there were talks about it and Senna was very vocal regarding the cars, primarily because the driver aids were removed. He had mentioned that he expected a lot of accidents because of that. But originally the engine reduction was programmed for 1996 onwards if I'm not mistaken, and even then it would have been tricky. Getting all manufacturers to design a new engine wasn't an easy task. In fact, it went to 1998 before they all ran 3.0 V10's, first time that they had such homogeneity in the engine department throughout the grid. Senna's death sped all of these up. Cosworth in their book "the search for power" referred to the decision to switch to 3.0 engines as a very abrupt one (it happens that I was reading this!).

What I'm saying is that it was not a definite change for 1995, from memory at least.

As for the car development, Williams had caught up with their 1994 rev 2 car, but that does not make it a definite winner for 1995. It's debatable what would have happened, as formidable as a Senna-Newey combo may sound.

It's interesting reading all the follow up posts but what you said sounds a bit confused, you said that Senna would have struggled to adapt to the cars that were introduced because of his own death.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 9th

Win: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podium: 2nd Barcelona 2018 and Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:50 am 
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Posts: 5836
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Benetton had a big change from 1994 to 1995, Williams did not. So I don't get your point? Benetton needed a competitive 3.0 litre engine, Ford could not offer them one. So either way Benetton were going to significantly change going from 1994 to 1995 as Ford did not develop a works 3.0 litre engine. That is why Benetton left them, Fords budget was about 1/4 of Renaults. The cars were also similar weights in 1994 and 1995. With the engines switching to 3.0 it also favored a V10.

Benetton had to intergrate the larger V10 Renault quite late in the season once the 1995 car was well into its development. This is why in part this car is without doubt the worst car Schumacher won a title in and consider very hard to setup and always on a knife edge, it was not a good car. He won the title because the drivers in the cars better or equal to it were no where near as good as Schumacher (Both Williams and Ferrari drivers).

Williams knew all along they would be switching to the V10 3.0 and was quick right away, Hill should have won the first 3 races of 1995. Your post was in relation to Senna adapting to 1995 rules, what did he have to adapt to exactly and why would you suggest such when history shows him as probably the most adaptable driver of all time. 1994-1995 would have been one of the more stable periods during Senna's career.

No, you got me completely wrong, as I think you didn't follow the conversation. What I'm saying is that the changes of 1995 rules were a direct effect of Senna's death. They decided to slow down the cars, take out HP and wing, along with the chassis design and testing changes in order to make the cars safer. So in the "if that hadn't happened" scenario, then the Benetton would probably not have changed so drastically. So it is probably not a fair assessment of what would have happened in 1995 had Senna not died, as the cars would probably not have changed. Benetton with the nice and light V8 may have come on top if they focused their development on the '94 car. So in effect Schumacher could have beaten Senna, at least in 1995, which was what we were arguing.

Is this clearer? It has nothing to do with Senna's adaptability. It may be way off the mark, but this is my train of thought as to how they may have fared in 1995.


I am pretty sure the decision to switch to 3.0 litre occurred before Senna's death. Benetton were already on that path for 1995.

Senna among team bosses and other drivers were already calling for changes to the sport due to the amount of big accidents that had already occurred prior to Imola in which there was also 2 huge accidents and of course Ratzenberger's death. The cars were already on course to be slowed down made more stable even if Senna survived his accident.

The Benetton was also only ever quicker than the Williams for the first 5-6 races when the Williams was below par having all its gadgets removed. Schumacher lapped Hill in 3 of first 4 races and was a minute ahead in the other when Hill retired. By the end of 1994 Damon Hill was on Schumacher's pace, which tells you all you need to know about the relative pace of the cars. Hill matched him in adelaide and beat him in the wet in Japan as well as running him close in Jerez. The last 3 races of the year.


Indeed there were talks about it and Senna was very vocal regarding the cars, primarily because the driver aids were removed. He had mentioned that he expected a lot of accidents because of that. But originally the engine reduction was programmed for 1996 onwards if I'm not mistaken, and even then it would have been tricky. Getting all manufacturers to design a new engine wasn't an easy task. In fact, it went to 1998 before they all ran 3.0 V10's, first time that they had such homogeneity in the engine department throughout the grid. Senna's death sped all of these up. Cosworth in their book "the search for power" referred to the decision to switch to 3.0 engines as a very abrupt one (it happens that I was reading this!).

What I'm saying is that it was not a definite change for 1995, from memory at least.

As for the car development, Williams had caught up with their 1994 rev 2 car, but that does not make it a definite winner for 1995. It's debatable what would have happened, as formidable as a Senna-Newey combo may sound.

It's interesting reading all the follow up posts but what you said sounds a bit confused, you said that Senna would have struggled to adapt to the cars that were introduced because of his own death.

You are joking, right?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:39 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 25440
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
No, you got me completely wrong, as I think you didn't follow the conversation. What I'm saying is that the changes of 1995 rules were a direct effect of Senna's death. They decided to slow down the cars, take out HP and wing, along with the chassis design and testing changes in order to make the cars safer. So in the "if that hadn't happened" scenario, then the Benetton would probably not have changed so drastically. So it is probably not a fair assessment of what would have happened in 1995 had Senna not died, as the cars would probably not have changed. Benetton with the nice and light V8 may have come on top if they focused their development on the '94 car. So in effect Schumacher could have beaten Senna, at least in 1995, which was what we were arguing.

Is this clearer? It has nothing to do with Senna's adaptability. It may be way off the mark, but this is my train of thought as to how they may have fared in 1995.


I am pretty sure the decision to switch to 3.0 litre occurred before Senna's death. Benetton were already on that path for 1995.

Senna among team bosses and other drivers were already calling for changes to the sport due to the amount of big accidents that had already occurred prior to Imola in which there was also 2 huge accidents and of course Ratzenberger's death. The cars were already on course to be slowed down made more stable even if Senna survived his accident.

The Benetton was also only ever quicker than the Williams for the first 5-6 races when the Williams was below par having all its gadgets removed. Schumacher lapped Hill in 3 of first 4 races and was a minute ahead in the other when Hill retired. By the end of 1994 Damon Hill was on Schumacher's pace, which tells you all you need to know about the relative pace of the cars. Hill matched him in adelaide and beat him in the wet in Japan as well as running him close in Jerez. The last 3 races of the year.


Indeed there were talks about it and Senna was very vocal regarding the cars, primarily because the driver aids were removed. He had mentioned that he expected a lot of accidents because of that. But originally the engine reduction was programmed for 1996 onwards if I'm not mistaken, and even then it would have been tricky. Getting all manufacturers to design a new engine wasn't an easy task. In fact, it went to 1998 before they all ran 3.0 V10's, first time that they had such homogeneity in the engine department throughout the grid. Senna's death sped all of these up. Cosworth in their book "the search for power" referred to the decision to switch to 3.0 engines as a very abrupt one (it happens that I was reading this!).

What I'm saying is that it was not a definite change for 1995, from memory at least.

As for the car development, Williams had caught up with their 1994 rev 2 car, but that does not make it a definite winner for 1995. It's debatable what would have happened, as formidable as a Senna-Newey combo may sound.

It's interesting reading all the follow up posts but what you said sounds a bit confused, you said that Senna would have struggled to adapt to the cars that were introduced because of his own death.

You are joking, right?

Had a re-read it was lamo that thought you were questioning Senna's adaptability but you actually didn't, my bad.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 9th

Win: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podium: 2nd Barcelona 2018 and Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:06 am 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 5836
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
posts but what you said sounds a bit confused, you said that Senna would have struggled to adapt to the cars that were introduced because of his own death.

You are joking, right?

Had a re-read it was lamo that thought you were questioning Senna's adaptability but you actually didn't, my bad.

Ok, lamo's post is in the same text you were quoting, so I genuinely thought you were pulling my leg there...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 25440
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
posts but what you said sounds a bit confused, you said that Senna would have struggled to adapt to the cars that were introduced because of his own death.

You are joking, right?

Had a re-read it was lamo that thought you were questioning Senna's adaptability but you actually didn't, my bad.

Ok, lamo's post is in the same text you were quoting, so I genuinely thought you were pulling my leg there...

I've been away for a few days.

lamo's was a stand alone post so i thought he was responding to something you actually said.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 9th

Win: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podium: 2nd Barcelona 2018 and Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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