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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:37 am 
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I was going to comment on another thread but I thought this was an interesting line of discussion and worthy of it's own thread in the off season.

I think Hamilton is a different driver now than the one we saw back in 07-11.

Interestingly he has arguably only caused himself 1 retirement in the last 6 seasons! And that's if you blame him for Spain 2016. That's an incredible record. Is there any driver post mid 70s that has a record that can match that? For a fairly mistake prone driver it's a good turn around.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:21 am 
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But no one has had such cars that he has had so it's hard to compare with a driver fighting in the midfield.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:23 am 
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Seb had a good run at some point that was along the lines of this but ended in Mexico 2015 I think but don't quote me. It was something to do with causing your own dnf or something. The last few seasons though there's been several dodgy starts in particular which were easily avoidable.

Alonso can be a bit of both, pace wise I've often felt he dances on the line more than the other top guys because of his aggressive style while the others seem to get close enough to the line and stay there without crossing for long periods and I think that can be reflected in spins/crashes. This could well be car related though and having to push more to compensate as when he had the best cars in 05/06 it was the complete opposite and there was even a belief he was cruising because of being so composed and generally error free. Before 05 though again we saw more up and down and to further muddy the water, in a slow but well balanced car last season he was the only error free driver on the grid.

Dan is very clean, I'm sure I read after the Hungary incident last year with Max that he'd never retired through a mistake or never crashed someone out, something like that anyway and I can't think of an incident I felt he was responsible for off the top of my head although he is getting more aggressive in his bold moves and a few times has had to rely on the kindness of the guy being passed to avoid contact.


Too early to comment fully on Max. Like Alonso pre 05 we've seen a bit of everything and how he handles himself when he's got a championship contending car will reveal more.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:30 am 
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AnRs wrote:
But no one has had such cars that he has had so it's hard to compare with a driver fighting in the midfield.


It helps for sure but he also drives in the age of grid penalties so he actually has to do a fair bit of racing through the pack. Drivers of yesteryear never or at least very rarely started lower down the field.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:15 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
But no one has had such cars that he has had so it's hard to compare with a driver fighting in the midfield.


It helps for sure but he also drives in the age of grid penalties so he actually has to do a fair bit of racing through the pack. Drivers of yesteryear never or at least very rarely started lower down the field.


But if you have a look at how it's done, "racing through the pack", it's mostly drs and a huge engine advantage on the straights, he nearly never have to challenge in difficult conditions.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:22 am 
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AnRs wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
But no one has had such cars that he has had so it's hard to compare with a driver fighting in the midfield.


It helps for sure but he also drives in the age of grid penalties so he actually has to do a fair bit of racing through the pack. Drivers of yesteryear never or at least very rarely started lower down the field.


But if you have a look at how it's done, "racing through the pack", it's mostly drs and a huge engine advantage on the straights, he nearly never have to challenge in difficult conditions.


Not sure about that. Even when the Merc was an absolute rocket it was known for being difficult in traffic. I remember him having to do a fair bit of racing when he got closer to the pointy end. He rarely had any easy wins or 2nd places from these instances so he must have had to race hard against some.And of course this 6 years span included 2013 and 2012 where he had to do a fair old bit of racing. This was the time of multiple pitstops and cheese tyres.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:28 am 
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Are we talking race retirement crashes or general contact? Because if the latter then I think the story is a little different. Hamilton played bumper cars at Silverstone in 2014 and was also responsible for a bodywork-unfriendly coming together with Ricciardo that same year, off the top of my head. Both occasions were when he was fighting through traffic, so I think the previous poster has a point when say that leading from the front, which he has done recently more often than not, presents fewer opportunities for havoc.

I’d disagree with Ricciardo being clean. I find he relies over heavily on others to get out of his way. His banzai attack on Kimi in Monaco is a prime example and to this day I do not understand why he was allowed to get away with it. Spain 2016 (I think, traveling at Mo) is another exexample, where if Vettel hadn’t taken avoiding action both drivers may have had their race ended there. Ricciardo gets a lot of praise for a style which many now criticize Senna for.

Kimi went through a patch where he was the cleanest driver on the grid for a good while, but lately he’s been a bit more contact happy. I think all the top drivers have their share of moments and these are heavily related to their grid positions


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:45 am 
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I'm just talking about contact leading to retirements or race ending crashes and spins. My memory is not good enough to recall every piece of exchanged body work but I'm sure Hamilton has been at fault for some!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:52 am 
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Oh in that case fair enough. His record there is pretty good


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:38 pm 
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Hamilton's remit is to try and avoid contact if he can so it's hardly surprising that he has quite a good record in this respect, that and better decision making in the past few years see him make the flag more often than most.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:27 pm 
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Anyone with dominant car has an excellent crash record. Vettel in RBR dominaton record, Schumacher in his era, etc.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:09 pm 
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Schumacher didn't have anything to mach Hamilton in this department TBF. And Hamilton only had a dominant car for half this period. He didn't crash in the years when he didn't either.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:00 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Schumacher didn't have anything to mach Hamilton in this department TBF. And Hamilton only had a dominant car for half this period. He didn't crash in the years when he didn't either.


No he never had such cars that's true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1Wcch5nR-g


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:10 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Schumacher didn't have anything to mach Hamilton in this department TBF. And Hamilton only had a dominant car for half this period. He didn't crash in the years when he didn't either.


No he never had such cars that's true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1Wcch5nR-g


To your comment - Your facetiousness does you no favours.

To the video - I agree you could argue Hamilton was partly at fault.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:15 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Schumacher didn't have anything to mach Hamilton in this department TBF. And Hamilton only had a dominant car for half this period. He didn't crash in the years when he didn't either.


I am confused, mikey. Are you saying that Schumi has not had dominate cars like Hamilton has, or the other way around?
They have both had dominate cars ... Schumi in '02 & 04, '15 & '16... both have had other cars that were certainly competitive, if not dominate. Can a driver really ask for anything more than to have a competitive ride?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:30 pm 
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Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Schumacher didn't have anything to mach Hamilton in this department TBF. And Hamilton only had a dominant car for half this period. He didn't crash in the years when he didn't either.


I am confused, mikey. Are you saying that Schumi has not had dominate cars like Hamilton has, or the other way around?
They have both had dominate cars ... Schumi in '02 & 04, '15 & '16... both have had other cars that were certainly competitive, if not dominate. Can a driver really ask for anything more than to have a competitive ride?


Apologies, I meant that in terms of a "crash record" Schumacher never managed to get close to one or even two race ending incidents in 6 seasons. I wasn't making a comment on the competitiveness of the cars or otherwise.

My opinion on that would be that Hamilton has had cars with bigger advantages but has had to do more "racing" than Schumacher anyway due to the current sporting regulations, competition tyre etc.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:17 pm 
2007-2011 Hamilton isn't much different to 2011-2017 Hamilton in my book. Its more circumstantial. Look at his first year in 2007, he had no incidents and made 1 driver error all year under a special scenario where the team left him out on inters that had worn down to the canvas something that hasn't been since before or after so you can even give him some slack on that.

2008 he certainly chased it a bit but the Hamilton-Mclaren package was slower than the Massa-Ferrari one so he had to take risks and take it to the limit and only his sublime wet weather drivers kept him in that title race.

2010 he was clean all year until he began to fall out of the title race as the Mclaren fell behind and took risks in Singapore to pass Webber (who lead the WDC at that point) and Massa at the start in Monza both resulting in DNFs. If the Mclaren was still strong I doubt he would have had either incident.

2011, as soon as it was clear he couldn't win the title he drove poorly and had a sort of all or nothing approach to race weekends. He was also apparently suffering an illness through that year (to be detailed in the post retirement autobiography apparently) so I guess that might shed some light on why he lacked a bit of speed. I think the fact he didn't have a speed advantage over Button and there was no title to fight for changed his driving that year. Without 2011 he would be classed as one of the cleanest and least error prone champions of all time.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:18 pm 
mikeyg123 wrote:
Schumacher didn't have anything to mach Hamilton in this department TBF. And Hamilton only had a dominant car for half this period. He didn't crash in the years when he didn't either.


Schumacher was always prone to an error a season, except for his most dominant years when he was cruising. But the tracks are a bit more forgiving now than the bulk of Schumachers career.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:27 pm 
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lamo wrote:
2007-2011 Hamilton isn't much different to 2011-2017 Hamilton in my book. Its more circumstantial. Look at his first year in 2007, he had no incidents and made 1 driver error all year under a special scenario where the team left him out on inters that had worn down to the canvas something that hasn't been since before or after so you can even give him some slack on that.

2008 he certainly chased it a bit but the Hamilton-Mclaren package was slower than the Massa-Ferrari one so he had to take risks and take it to the limit and only his sublime wet weather drivers kept him in that title race.

2010 he was clean all year until he began to fall out of the title race as the Mclaren fell behind and took risks in Singapore to pass Webber (who lead the WDC at that point) and Massa at the start in Monza both resulting in DNFs. If the Mclaren was still strong I doubt he would have had either incident.

2011, as soon as it was clear he couldn't win the title he drove poorly and had a sort of all or nothing approach to race weekends. He was also apparently suffering an illness through that year (to be detailed in the post retirement autobiography apparently) so I guess that might shed some light on why he lacked a bit of speed. I think the fact he didn't have a speed advantage over Button and there was no title to fight for changed his driving that year. Without 2011 he would be classed as one of the cleanest and least error prone champions of all time.


You, see I think that's quite a big difference. He's gone from a couple a season to a couple in 6 years.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:47 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
2007-2011 Hamilton isn't much different to 2011-2017 Hamilton in my book. Its more circumstantial. Look at his first year in 2007, he had no incidents and made 1 driver error all year under a special scenario where the team left him out on inters that had worn down to the canvas something that hasn't been since before or after so you can even give him some slack on that.

2008 he certainly chased it a bit but the Hamilton-Mclaren package was slower than the Massa-Ferrari one so he had to take risks and take it to the limit and only his sublime wet weather drivers kept him in that title race.

2010 he was clean all year until he began to fall out of the title race as the Mclaren fell behind and took risks in Singapore to pass Webber (who lead the WDC at that point) and Massa at the start in Monza both resulting in DNFs. If the Mclaren was still strong I doubt he would have had either incident.

2011, as soon as it was clear he couldn't win the title he drove poorly and had a sort of all or nothing approach to race weekends. He was also apparently suffering an illness through that year (to be detailed in the post retirement autobiography apparently) so I guess that might shed some light on why he lacked a bit of speed. I think the fact he didn't have a speed advantage over Button and there was no title to fight for changed his driving that year. Without 2011 he would be classed as one of the cleanest and least error prone champions of all time.


You, see I think that's quite a big difference. He's gone from a couple a season to a couple in 6 years.

Yes, but lamo has pretty much given a plausible explanation why. In seasons where he didn’t have the best equipment, he was much more likely to have accidents. Whereas in seasons where he didn’t have the pressure to overdrive, he consequently looked smoother. So is it driver ability or circumstance that is the biggest influence?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:06 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
2007-2011 Hamilton isn't much different to 2011-2017 Hamilton in my book. Its more circumstantial. Look at his first year in 2007, he had no incidents and made 1 driver error all year under a special scenario where the team left him out on inters that had worn down to the canvas something that hasn't been since before or after so you can even give him some slack on that.

2008 he certainly chased it a bit but the Hamilton-Mclaren package was slower than the Massa-Ferrari one so he had to take risks and take it to the limit and only his sublime wet weather drivers kept him in that title race.

2010 he was clean all year until he began to fall out of the title race as the Mclaren fell behind and took risks in Singapore to pass Webber (who lead the WDC at that point) and Massa at the start in Monza both resulting in DNFs. If the Mclaren was still strong I doubt he would have had either incident.

2011, as soon as it was clear he couldn't win the title he drove poorly and had a sort of all or nothing approach to race weekends. He was also apparently suffering an illness through that year (to be detailed in the post retirement autobiography apparently) so I guess that might shed some light on why he lacked a bit of speed. I think the fact he didn't have a speed advantage over Button and there was no title to fight for changed his driving that year. Without 2011 he would be classed as one of the cleanest and least error prone champions of all time.


You, see I think that's quite a big difference. He's gone from a couple a season to a couple in 6 years.

Yes, but lamo has pretty much given a plausible explanation why. In seasons where he didn’t have the best equipment, he was much more likely to have accidents. Whereas in seasons where he didn’t have the pressure to overdrive, he consequently looked smoother. So is it driver ability or circumstance that is the biggest influence?


I think it's probably a bit of both. I do think he has improved a lot. You can say it's because of the car but he's still been in a fight each year. Aside from perhaps 2015 it's never been easy.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:07 pm 
Zoue wrote:
Yes, but lamo has pretty much given a plausible explanation why. In seasons where he didn’t have the best equipment, he was much more likely to have accidents. Whereas in seasons where he didn’t have the pressure to overdrive, he consequently looked smoother. So is it driver ability or circumstance that is the biggest influence?


Indeed, if the 2008 and 2010 Mclarens were 0.3 per lap quicker on average he would have walked both titles (especially 2008) and probably been close to error free for both of them too.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:14 pm 
mikeyg123 wrote:

I think it's probably a bit of both. I do think he has improved a lot. You can say it's because of the car but he's still been in a fight each year. Aside from perhaps 2015 it's never been easy.


2017 Hamilton seemed a step above probably, he didn't lose his head when he was quite a way back in the points and Ferrari looking strong. Hamilton of old may have started to take too many risks at that point. I also think he did well in 2016 to not let the reliability issues get to him which may have in the past. To me his gap to Rosberg was largest in 2016 and it was probably his best year of there pairing overall. Although ironically he was being patient waiting for Rosbergs bad luck to hit (which it always does in a title fight) and it was literally the only season in living memory a driver in a WDC battle didn't have a mechanical issue. Which Hamilton repeated in 2017.

The more I think of it, it probably is a bit of both. 2014 on wards Hamilton is more patient to let the title come to him. He could have quite easily blown it in 2014 post Spa when he was 29 points down. But 2014-2016 he did only have 1 person to cover and they had the same car, 2007-2010 he could find himself in the 1st-5th best car driver package at any weekend, lots of variables at play. When its one of one with your team mate its a lot easy, especially if you know you genuinely are better than him.

I'd probably go with 70% the car, 30% more emotionally mature/patient. 2007 he was exemplary though, so that's the anomaly - he had it in him right from the start.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:44 pm 
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lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I think it's probably a bit of both. I do think he has improved a lot. You can say it's because of the car but he's still been in a fight each year. Aside from perhaps 2015 it's never been easy.


2017 Hamilton seemed a step above probably, he didn't lose his head when he was quite a way back in the points and Ferrari looking strong. Hamilton of old may have started to take too many risks at that point. I also think he did well in 2016 to not let the reliability issues get to him which may have in the past. To me his gap to Rosberg was largest in 2016 and it was probably his best year of there pairing overall. Although ironically he was being patient waiting for Rosbergs bad luck to hit (which it always does in a title fight) and it was literally the only season in living memory a driver in a WDC battle didn't have a mechanical issue. Which Hamilton repeated in 2017.

The more I think of it, it probably is a bit of both. 2014 on wards Hamilton is more patient to let the title come to him. He could have quite easily blown it in 2014 post Spa when he was 29 points down. But 2014-2016 he did only have 1 person to cover and they had the same car, 2007-2010 he could find himself in the 1st-5th best car driver package at any weekend, lots of variables at play. When its one of one with your team mate its a lot easy, especially if you know you genuinely are better than him.

I'd probably go with 70% the car, 30% more emotionally mature/patient. 2007 he was exemplary though, so that's the anomaly - he had it in him right from the start.


07 he went off in China and retired and effectively "retired" at the European Grand Prix as well. Very good for a rookie season but not as good as recent times for him.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:35 am 
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Pretty hard to crash into another car when you are way out front on your own :lol:

I agree with the comment that it's circumstantial. Hamilton had many incidents before he arrived at Mercedes which were avoidable.

Since then he's had a car which can pass others easily and spends all its time out in front. Rosberg raced close, but as teammates it's inevitable they would be trying to avoid each other (most of the time).

His driving hasn't been completely clean - I think his behaviour behind safety cars is deliberately erratic. He also turned in on Dan Ricciardo at Monaco in 2016 which nearly resulted in contact.

Interesting point about Ricciardo - he's never really had an incident with another driver where he was at fault. His "dive bombs" seem to be criticised by some, but not once has one of these moves resulted in contact - the other driver simply hasn't had time to even contemplate blocking.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:32 am 
mikeyg123 wrote:
07 he went off in China and retired and effectively "retired" at the European Grand Prix as well. Very good for a rookie season but not as good as recent times for him.


Both very exceptional circumstances though.

At the Nurburgring he went off in a freak rain storm in which 7 cars went off on the same corner and same lap of the 15 or 16 or so that went through there at racing speeds before the SC deployment. Massa and a couple of others also nearly joined them.

The same with China, you don't let a car wear down to the canvas, although Hamilton was in part to blame. The team naively prioritised the race win over the championship.

In 2014 he dropped it coming out the pits at the start and was lucky to continue, he was the only driver to lose it there on that corner/lap. He also spun in Brazil when about to over cut Rosberg and was lucky to not hit the barrier. That year he also spun and ran wide and had his time deleted on his qualifying lap in Austria.


Last edited by lamo on Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:29 am 
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AnRs wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Schumacher didn't have anything to mach Hamilton in this department TBF. And Hamilton only had a dominant car for half this period. He didn't crash in the years when he didn't either.


No he never had such cars that's true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1Wcch5nR-g

You do realise that Maldonado got penalised for that.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:23 am 
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I think both viewpoints are right here.

Hamilton has matured massively. I think he was a bit gung-ho in his early career, in 2011 he was just mentally nowhere, and now he is - in my opinion - the mentally strongest driver on the grid.

However, part of this run is due to the situations he has been in. He has generally been in a fast car, where the risk vs reward doesn't add up for pushing it that little bit too much. Especially 2015-2017, where he was always likely to only finish behind his teammate even if he ran a cautious weekend (and give his teammate +25 points if he messed up).


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:27 am 
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lamo wrote:
2007-2011 Hamilton isn't much different to 2011-2017 Hamilton in my book. Its more circumstantial. Look at his first year in 2007, he had no incidents and made 1 driver error all year under a special scenario where the team left him out on inters that had worn down to the canvas something that hasn't been since before or after so you can even give him some slack on that.


He lost the WDC at the start of the final race by going off 2 times bumping around and picking up demis that blocked the gearbox.
There is a lot of trying to rewrite 2007 and 2008 in here...


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:24 am 
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Not that is is that long compared to Hamilton, but has Bottas actually ever been deemed responsible for his or anyone else’s retirement in qualifying or the race? I didn't follow 2013 very well, but from 2014, I don't think Bottas has ever crashed out and not been able to get going again in qualifying or the race. I remember the commentators saying something like this at the end of 2015. I don't even remember him crashing out in practice due to his own errors either and I usually do follow practice. And I think he's the only driver on the grid who is still here now who has managed to avoid causing any retirements. Some may have your arguments in Spain this year. But the fact was it was a racing incident and he was the only one involved not to suffer. They did say that they would be less strict on lap 1 collisions, but they still said that is one driver was predominantly to blame, they would be punished. So I just don't blame Bottas for this. Racing incident.

This is in a way a positive to what many think of Bottas as being overly cautious. It has certainly kept him out of trouble a lot of his career. Other drivers take risks, but look at the amount of incidents they have got involved in. However, Taking risks very often does pay off so I still think Bottas should take more than he does.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:57 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Not that is is that long compared to Hamilton, but has Bottas actually ever been deemed responsible for his or anyone else’s retirement in qualifying or the race? I didn't follow 2013 very well, but from 2014, I don't think Bottas has ever crashed out and not been able to get going again in qualifying or the race. I remember the commentators saying something like this at the end of 2015. I don't even remember him crashing out in practice due to his own errors either and I usually do follow practice. And I think he's the only driver on the grid who is still here now who has managed to avoid causing any retirements. Some may have your arguments in Spain this year. But the fact was it was a racing incident and he was the only one involved not to suffer. They did say that they would be less strict on lap 1 collisions, but they still said that is one driver was predominantly to blame, they would be punished. So I just don't blame Bottas for this. Racing incident.

This is in a way a positive to what many think of Bottas as being overly cautious. It has certainly kept him out of trouble a lot of his career. Other drivers take risks, but look at the amount of incidents they have got involved in. However, Taking risks very often does pay off so I still think Bottas should take more than he does.

I hold Bottas responsible for taking Kimi out in Baku this year, so there's one. However, if you're asking if he's ever received a penalty from the stewards for causing a collision that led to a DNF for the other driver, I don't actually know. Probably not. But Verstappen has never received a penalty for dangerous driving, either...

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:05 pm 
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oz_karter wrote:
Pretty hard to crash into another car when you are way out front on your own :lol:

I agree with the comment that it's circumstantial. Hamilton had many incidents before he arrived at Mercedes which were avoidable.

Since then he's had a car which can pass others easily and spends all its time out in front. Rosberg raced close, but as teammates it's inevitable they would be trying to avoid each other (most of the time).

His driving hasn't been completely clean - I think his behaviour behind safety cars is deliberately erratic. He also turned in on Dan Ricciardo at Monaco in 2016 which nearly resulted in contact.

Interesting point about Ricciardo - he's never really had an incident with another driver where he was at fault. His "dive bombs" seem to be criticised by some, but not once has one of these moves resulted in contact - the other driver simply hasn't had time to even contemplate blocking.

I beg to differ. He came together with Kimi at Monaco in 2015 (i think?), in a move that was ambitious, to put it kindly. And the only reason he didn't take Vettel out in 2016 in Spain was because Vettel saw him and actively altered his line. But Ricciardo was going so fast that he completely overshot the corner.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:14 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
lamo wrote:
2007-2011 Hamilton isn't much different to 2011-2017 Hamilton in my book. Its more circumstantial. Look at his first year in 2007, he had no incidents and made 1 driver error all year under a special scenario where the team left him out on inters that had worn down to the canvas something that hasn't been since before or after so you can even give him some slack on that.


He lost the WDC at the start of the final race by going off 2 times bumping around and picking up demis that blocked the gearbox.
There is a lot of trying to rewrite 2007 and 2008 in here...

He went off the track once avoiding Alonso's car which had brake tested him.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:19 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Not that is is that long compared to Hamilton, but has Bottas actually ever been deemed responsible for his or anyone else’s retirement in qualifying or the race? I didn't follow 2013 very well, but from 2014, I don't think Bottas has ever crashed out and not been able to get going again in qualifying or the race. I remember the commentators saying something like this at the end of 2015. I don't even remember him crashing out in practice due to his own errors either and I usually do follow practice. And I think he's the only driver on the grid who is still here now who has managed to avoid causing any retirements. Some may have your arguments in Spain this year. But the fact was it was a racing incident and he was the only one involved not to suffer. They did say that they would be less strict on lap 1 collisions, but they still said that is one driver was predominantly to blame, they would be punished. So I just don't blame Bottas for this. Racing incident.

This is in a way a positive to what many think of Bottas as being overly cautious. It has certainly kept him out of trouble a lot of his career. Other drivers take risks, but look at the amount of incidents they have got involved in. However, Taking risks very often does pay off so I still think Bottas should take more than he does.

I hold Bottas responsible for taking Kimi out in Baku this year, so there's one. However, if you're asking if he's ever received a penalty from the stewards for causing a collision that led to a DNF for the other driver, I don't actually know. Probably not. But Verstappen has never received a penalty for dangerous driving, either...

He crashed out of a race early 2014 when he hit a wall, I can't remember which track, he got blamed by some for crashing Kimi out in Baku and also he got blamed by some for the 3 car collision which saw Kimi and Verstappen retire from the race.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
He went off the track once avoiding Alonso's car which had brake tested him.


He locked up his brakes and lost control after a bad start where he fell to 4:th place


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:37 pm 
AnRs wrote:
lamo wrote:
2007-2011 Hamilton isn't much different to 2011-2017 Hamilton in my book. Its more circumstantial. Look at his first year in 2007, he had no incidents and made 1 driver error all year under a special scenario where the team left him out on inters that had worn down to the canvas something that hasn't been since before or after so you can even give him some slack on that.


He lost the WDC at the start of the final race by going off 2 times bumping around and picking up demis that blocked the gearbox.
There is a lot of trying to rewrite 2007 and 2008 in here...


How exactly?

So in 2007 you have
1) Spinning off on a corner in which 7 of 15 cars who went through it went off on that lap and ended up in the gravel.
2) Running rear tyres to canvas and losing it in the pit lane
3) Running wide on one corner in a race (that's not even a major error)

For me that is 1 true error (china), Nurburgring I don't think he was to blame (if 50% of the field go off, its the track) and if the third biggest error you can find is running wide on one corner onto the run off. When that is your third biggest error you know you have had a good season. He he has multiple of those per season for every year.

2007 is probably Hamilton 2nd best season (out of 11) in terms of errors. Only 2017 was better


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:00 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Hamilton's remit is to try and avoid contact if he can so it's hardly surprising that he has quite a good record in this respect, that and better decision making in the past few years see him make the flag more often than most.
Pardon me for sounding facetious but does any driver go looking for contact? I appreciate that there are some that one may argue put themselves into positions where they are reliant on another driver to avoid it but I'm pretty sure that, on the whole, all drivers try to avoid contact.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:16 pm 
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at the beginning of his career he didnt encounter a lot of crashes that where directly his fault it was only in the RBR dominance years when he was trying to over drive the car to keep pace that he came a cropper a few times. I still remember the car magnets that were him and Massa Bad Bad times.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:29 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Not that is is that long compared to Hamilton, but has Bottas actually ever been deemed responsible for his or anyone else’s retirement in qualifying or the race? I didn't follow 2013 very well, but from 2014, I don't think Bottas has ever crashed out and not been able to get going again in qualifying or the race. I remember the commentators saying something like this at the end of 2015. I don't even remember him crashing out in practice due to his own errors either and I usually do follow practice. And I think he's the only driver on the grid who is still here now who has managed to avoid causing any retirements. Some may have your arguments in Spain this year. But the fact was it was a racing incident and he was the only one involved not to suffer. They did say that they would be less strict on lap 1 collisions, but they still said that is one driver was predominantly to blame, they would be punished. So I just don't blame Bottas for this. Racing incident.

This is in a way a positive to what many think of Bottas as being overly cautious. It has certainly kept him out of trouble a lot of his career. Other drivers take risks, but look at the amount of incidents they have got involved in. However, Taking risks very often does pay off so I still think Bottas should take more than he does.

I hold Bottas responsible for taking Kimi out in Baku this year, so there's one. However, if you're asking if he's ever received a penalty from the stewards for causing a collision that led to a DNF for the other driver, I don't actually know. Probably not. But Verstappen has never received a penalty for dangerous driving, either...

He crashed out of a race early 2014 when he hit a wall, I can't remember which track, he got blamed by some for crashing Kimi out in Baku and also he got blamed by some for the 3 car collision which saw Kimi and Verstappen retire from the race.


Oz he hit the wall in 2014, should have been a podium, he was the quickest guy on track behind Nico. Collision in Russia with Kimi one year as well I think on the last lap, there was a running story for a while of those two coming together. Spain and Baku this year as you mention. He hit Lewis at a start I think in Bahrain or China in 2016 as well iirc.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:58 pm 
The pattern is the same for Alonso too, 2005 and 2006 combined he made one error in hitting the wall at the 2005 Canadian GP.

Fast forward to 2007 and under pressure from a fast team mate, no comfort zone in the WDC and he made more errors in the 2007 Canadian GP than he did the entire 2004,2005 and 2006 seasons combined as well as others throughout 2007. 2010 when he was on the fringes of the title also had a lot of errors especially early in the year.

2015-2017 he was firmly in the pack at the back so its a completely different ball game, but put him back into the 2005/2006 Renault situation and he would make zero errors again.


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