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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:19 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
When the damage sustained is not his fault then yes. Obviously.

I think our point is that although it isn't really his fault, he is the one who puts himself in this situation by attempting an overtake. Lots of these are what have lead to problems for Verstappen.


I can think of only two I thought were over ambitious, Massa in Monza and Dan in Hungary. I can't think of many more in his career and I don't think they (his other moves) carried any more risk than what Bottas attempted in Mexico with Kimi for example.

And Max still wasn't trying to go 3 wide in Spain, he was trying to go 2 wide but the guy in front and on the inside of the car Max was trying to pass braked earlier than everyone else and made it an awkward three-way instead. No way Max should be expected to think someone backs out that much at T1, the video is borderline comical how early Bottas puts the anchor down...


Every cam except Verstappen's himself, one thing seems to be clear regarding the tightness of the chicane is that you are never going 3 wide around there.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:21 pm 
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Gumption wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He went off the track once avoiding Alonso's car which had brake tested him.


He locked up his brakes and lost control after a bad start where he fell to 4:th place

Because Alonso brake tested him, Kimi also tapped on his brake going around the first corner losing Hamilton momentum and losing a place to Alonso, little tricks of the trade when a driver only needs to finish in 5th place, let's see if we can damage his front wing.

Pokerman, honest question... So if you're vehement that Alonso brake-checked him then how can you say that Hamilton did not brake-check Vettel in Baku when the on-board telemetry clearly shows Hamilton tap his brake coming out of the turn in the acceleration zone when Vettel was right on his gearbox?

In one situation they were racing and in another situation they were not, also Hamilton had to create a gap to the safety car.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:25 pm 
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Gumption wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Gumption wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:

He locked up his brakes and lost control after a bad start where he fell to 4:th place

Because Alonso brake tested him, Kimi also tapped on his brake going around the first corner losing Hamilton momentum and losing a place to Alonso, little tricks of the trade when a driver only needs to finish in 5th place, let's see if we can damage his front wing.

Pokerman, honest question... So if you're vehement that Alonso brake-checked him then how can you say that Hamilton did not brake-check Vettel in Baku when the on-board telemetry clearly shows Hamilton tap his brake coming out of the turn in the acceleration zone when Vettel was right on his gearbox?


Tbf i don't think for one minute Alonso did brake test Hamilton but the situations are totally different. In Baku Hamilton was in behind the safety car needing to drop back before the restart. Hardly usual driving conditions.

I agree. I don't think Alonso did either. He brought up brake-checking and tricks of the trade so I'm curious his take on it given that's exactly what I thought Hamilton did in Baku given there was no gap between Hamilton and Vettel so tapping the brake shouldn't have been an option.

Vettel was too close, Hamilton needed to slow to create a gap to the safety car, also you try to make it seem like both cars were traveling at a constant speed, Vettel had just started to accelerate a bit harder.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:29 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Gumption wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tbf that's not Hamilton's responsibility. He is allowed to brake and Vettel knew that. Even Vettel doesn't think he was brake tested. Straight after the race he even said he was sure Hamilton didn't do it on purpose. If not done on purpose it can't be a brake test. That requires intent.

If there's no room behind you to brake (especially when you're coming out of a slow turn behind a safety car already going much slower than safety car speed with literally nothing in front of you for a kilometer) then you don't have the right to brake. If you want to slow down more, move over. Vettel had no obligation given their speed to have any gap. The braking on Hamilton's part was sudden and unexpected.

If anything, at a minimum the stewards/FIA screwed up by not clarifying what is and isn't brake-checking. Tapping your brake unnecessarily when a car is directly behind you at a very slow speed could definitely fall into that category.


The safety car was a kilometer ahead? You may want to check that... Hamilton had to slow to leave room. He nearly passed it on the lap before. Vettel running right on Hamilton's gearbox is not Hamilton's choice. It's Vettel's.

Cheers that saves me posting, the lack of understanding of the situation is somewhat frustrating.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:35 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Gumption wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tbf that's not Hamilton's responsibility. He is allowed to brake and Vettel knew that. Even Vettel doesn't think he was brake tested. Straight after the race he even said he was sure Hamilton didn't do it on purpose. If not done on purpose it can't be a brake test. That requires intent.

If there's no room behind you to brake (especially when you're coming out of a slow turn behind a safety car already going much slower than safety car speed with literally nothing in front of you for a kilometer) then you don't have the right to brake. If you want to slow down more, move over. Vettel had no obligation given their speed to have any gap. The braking on Hamilton's part was sudden and unexpected.

If anything, at a minimum the stewards/FIA screwed up by not clarifying what is and isn't brake-checking. Tapping your brake unnecessarily when a car is directly behind you at a very slow speed could definitely fall into that category.


I don't know why I'm allowing myself to even be drawn in to this stuff again, but Hamilton's slowing down was not sudden and it shouldn't have been unexpected. Given everyone else behind Vettel also had to 'suddenly stop', and managed to to do without running in to anyone, I'd say this shouldn't be unexpected.

The brake is even a red herring. Cars can touch the brake and not change speed through throttle control, cars can not touch the brake and slow down rapidly due to the mass of aero on the cars. Hamilton did slow, not particularly hugely in F1 terms, at a point where everyone and their dog knew he was going to start playing the game to get the jump (as every driver does). Vettel didn't want Hamilton to get the jump, got too close and got caught out. That's it. Barely even worth a conversation, if it hadn't been for his reaction afterwards.

Don't agree it shouldn't have been unexpected. I think it's reasonable for the following driver to stay as tight as possible to the car in front, particularly in a restart situation. Vettel got caught out, it happens, but OTOH he wouldn't be doing his job right if he gave the car in front too much room.

Again a total lack of understanding of the situation at hand, if Hamilton had accelerated at that point he would have passed the SC, Vettel had no need to be that close, he had to realise that Hamilton was too close to the SC to accelerate at that point, if anything you might consider it bullying by Vettel in order to force Hamilton into a mistake by trying to control the speed of Hamilton's car but that is the privilege of the lead car only.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:38 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Gumption wrote:
If there's no room behind you to brake (especially when you're coming out of a slow turn behind a safety car already going much slower than safety car speed with literally nothing in front of you for a kilometer) then you don't have the right to brake. If you want to slow down more, move over. Vettel had no obligation given their speed to have any gap. The braking on Hamilton's part was sudden and unexpected.

If anything, at a minimum the stewards/FIA screwed up by not clarifying what is and isn't brake-checking. Tapping your brake unnecessarily when a car is directly behind you at a very slow speed could definitely fall into that category.


I don't know why I'm allowing myself to even be drawn in to this stuff again, but Hamilton's slowing down was not sudden and it shouldn't have been unexpected. Given everyone else behind Vettel also had to 'suddenly stop', and managed to to do without running in to anyone, I'd say this shouldn't be unexpected.

The brake is even a red herring. Cars can touch the brake and not change speed through throttle control, cars can not touch the brake and slow down rapidly due to the mass of aero on the cars. Hamilton did slow, not particularly hugely in F1 terms, at a point where everyone and their dog knew he was going to start playing the game to get the jump (as every driver does). Vettel didn't want Hamilton to get the jump, got too close and got caught out. That's it. Barely even worth a conversation, if it hadn't been for his reaction afterwards.

Don't agree it shouldn't have been unexpected. I think it's reasonable for the following driver to stay as tight as possible to the car in front, particularly in a restart situation. Vettel got caught out, it happens, but OTOH he wouldn't be doing his job right if he gave the car in front too much room.


It's reasonable to stay as close as possible, but if you drive in to the car in front of you then you're no longer as close as possible - you've crossed that line.

well, we're back to whether it should have been expected, really. It's perfectly common for racing cars to follow each other through corners at a distance which would have the police being called on normal roads, sometimes to the extent that it can be hard to tell where one car ends and the other begins, precisely because drivers would not reasonably expect the car in front to slow down, except in very specific places. There are no hazards for them to anticipate. This inevitably means that if the car in front does something contrary to the norm, then the following car will be caught out and often won't have much time to react.

You can't compare cars traveling under race conditions to those traveling under SC conditions.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Gumption wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tbf that's not Hamilton's responsibility. He is allowed to brake and Vettel knew that. Even Vettel doesn't think he was brake tested. Straight after the race he even said he was sure Hamilton didn't do it on purpose. If not done on purpose it can't be a brake test. That requires intent.

If there's no room behind you to brake (especially when you're coming out of a slow turn behind a safety car already going much slower than safety car speed with literally nothing in front of you for a kilometer) then you don't have the right to brake. If you want to slow down more, move over. Vettel had no obligation given their speed to have any gap. The braking on Hamilton's part was sudden and unexpected.

If anything, at a minimum the stewards/FIA screwed up by not clarifying what is and isn't brake-checking. Tapping your brake unnecessarily when a car is directly behind you at a very slow speed could definitely fall into that category.


I don't know why I'm allowing myself to even be drawn in to this stuff again, but Hamilton's slowing down was not sudden and it shouldn't have been unexpected. Given everyone else behind Vettel also had to 'suddenly stop', and managed to to do without running in to anyone, I'd say this shouldn't be unexpected.

The brake is even a red herring. Cars can touch the brake and not change speed through throttle control, cars can not touch the brake and slow down rapidly due to the mass of aero on the cars. Hamilton did slow, not particularly hugely in F1 terms, at a point where everyone and their dog knew he was going to start playing the game to get the jump (as every driver does). Vettel didn't want Hamilton to get the jump, got too close and got caught out. That's it. Barely even worth a conversation, if it hadn't been for his reaction afterwards.

Don't agree it shouldn't have been unexpected. I think it's reasonable for the following driver to stay as tight as possible to the car in front, particularly in a restart situation. Vettel got caught out, it happens, but OTOH he wouldn't be doing his job right if he gave the car in front too much room.

Again a total lack of understanding of the situation at hand, if Hamilton had accelerated at that point he would have passed the SC, Vettel had no need to be that close, he had to realise that Hamilton was too close to the SC to accelerate at that point, if anything you might consider it bullying by Vettel in order to force Hamilton into a mistake by trying to control the speed of Hamilton's car but that is the privilege of the lead car only.

If Hamilton was too close to the SC at that point, it's his fault. If he needed to slow down and a car is right behind him, he doesn't have the right to tap his brake and cause an incident. He should have veered over and slowed. Vettel needed to be on his gearbox. With the speed advantage Mercedes had, he couldn't afford to be any further behind. If the onboard footage didn't show Hamilton tap his brake I would just chalk it up to nothing more than a racing incident.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:16 pm 
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If Vettel really thought Hamilton may be about to drop the throttle with the safety car still in view and nearly a mile to start line then he really does have problems. No need for Web to be so close at that point because there's no way Hamilton could have gone for it for quite some time. Honestly the driver behind should not be so close as to make it impossible to avoid a crash if the driver in front dabs his brakes under non racing conditions. As for suggesting Hamilton was too close to the safety car.... every restart has to go through the same thing. The leader has to drop back from being close to being far enough away. Hamilton was at the start of that process. A process that tends to begin early in Baku due to the nature of the circuit. Hamilton's crew had already warned him he got very close to overtaking the safety car on the last restart.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:36 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Gumption wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tbf that's not Hamilton's responsibility. He is allowed to brake and Vettel knew that. Even Vettel doesn't think he was brake tested. Straight after the race he even said he was sure Hamilton didn't do it on purpose. If not done on purpose it can't be a brake test. That requires intent.

If there's no room behind you to brake (especially when you're coming out of a slow turn behind a safety car already going much slower than safety car speed with literally nothing in front of you for a kilometer) then you don't have the right to brake. If you want to slow down more, move over. Vettel had no obligation given their speed to have any gap. The braking on Hamilton's part was sudden and unexpected.

If anything, at a minimum the stewards/FIA screwed up by not clarifying what is and isn't brake-checking. Tapping your brake unnecessarily when a car is directly behind you at a very slow speed could definitely fall into that category.


I don't know why I'm allowing myself to even be drawn in to this stuff again, but Hamilton's slowing down was not sudden and it shouldn't have been unexpected. Given everyone else behind Vettel also had to 'suddenly stop', and managed to to do without running in to anyone, I'd say this shouldn't be unexpected.

The brake is even a red herring. Cars can touch the brake and not change speed through throttle control, cars can not touch the brake and slow down rapidly due to the mass of aero on the cars. Hamilton did slow, not particularly hugely in F1 terms, at a point where everyone and their dog knew he was going to start playing the game to get the jump (as every driver does). Vettel didn't want Hamilton to get the jump, got too close and got caught out. That's it. Barely even worth a conversation, if it hadn't been for his reaction afterwards.

Don't agree it shouldn't have been unexpected. I think it's reasonable for the following driver to stay as tight as possible to the car in front, particularly in a restart situation. Vettel got caught out, it happens, but OTOH he wouldn't be doing his job right if he gave the car in front too much room.

Again a total lack of understanding of the situation at hand, if Hamilton had accelerated at that point he would have passed the SC, Vettel had no need to be that close, he had to realise that Hamilton was too close to the SC to accelerate at that point, if anything you might consider it bullying by Vettel in order to force Hamilton into a mistake by trying to control the speed of Hamilton's car but that is the privilege of the lead car only.
im perfectly comfortable with my understanding of the situation, thanks. I just have a different viewpoint to yours


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ennis wrote:

I don't know why I'm allowing myself to even be drawn in to this stuff again, but Hamilton's slowing down was not sudden and it shouldn't have been unexpected. Given everyone else behind Vettel also had to 'suddenly stop', and managed to to do without running in to anyone, I'd say this shouldn't be unexpected.

The brake is even a red herring. Cars can touch the brake and not change speed through throttle control, cars can not touch the brake and slow down rapidly due to the mass of aero on the cars. Hamilton did slow, not particularly hugely in F1 terms, at a point where everyone and their dog knew he was going to start playing the game to get the jump (as every driver does). Vettel didn't want Hamilton to get the jump, got too close and got caught out. That's it. Barely even worth a conversation, if it hadn't been for his reaction afterwards.

Don't agree it shouldn't have been unexpected. I think it's reasonable for the following driver to stay as tight as possible to the car in front, particularly in a restart situation. Vettel got caught out, it happens, but OTOH he wouldn't be doing his job right if he gave the car in front too much room.


It's reasonable to stay as close as possible, but if you drive in to the car in front of you then you're no longer as close as possible - you've crossed that line.

well, we're back to whether it should have been expected, really. It's perfectly common for racing cars to follow each other through corners at a distance which would have the police being called on normal roads, sometimes to the extent that it can be hard to tell where one car ends and the other begins, precisely because drivers would not reasonably expect the car in front to slow down, except in very specific places. There are no hazards for them to anticipate. This inevitably means that if the car in front does something contrary to the norm, then the following car will be caught out and often won't have much time to react.

You can't compare cars traveling under race conditions to those traveling under SC conditions.

Nonsense. They are still racing, in that they are jockeying for position in order to be best placed to take advantage of the restart. They are not simply cruising


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:01 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
When the damage sustained is not his fault then yes. Obviously.

I think our point is that although it isn't really his fault, he is the one who puts himself in this situation by attempting an overtake. Lots of these are what have lead to problems for Verstappen.


I can think of only two I thought were over ambitious, Massa in Monza and Dan in Hungary. I can't think of many more in his career and I don't think they (his other moves) carried any more risk than what Bottas attempted in Mexico with Kimi for example.

And Max still wasn't trying to go 3 wide in Spain, he was trying to go 2 wide but the guy in front and on the inside of the car Max was trying to pass braked earlier than everyone else and made it an awkward three-way instead. No way Max should be expected to think someone backs out that much at T1, the video is borderline comical how early Bottas puts the anchor down...


Every cam except Verstappen's himself, one thing seems to be clear regarding the tightness of the chicane is that you are never going 3 wide around there.


No I wouldn't recommend it either but the point is no-one tried to. Max was trying to go 2 wide with Kimi which is perfectly normal. Here's his onboard..


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:06 pm 
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Yes, at the point it goes three wide Verstappen is already in the braking zone. Nothing he can do to back off at that stage. He can't just brake harder.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:16 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Yes, at the point it goes three wide Verstappen is already in the braking zone. Nothing he can do to back off at that stage. He can't just brake harder.

He can open up his steering and go straight. He's actively turning into the corner at the moment of the hit.

Now, I'm not saying he should have had to do anything. But unlike in Singapore, there is something he could have done. Drivers cut chicanes all the time when they realize there's an accident waiting to happen by turning in.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:34 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Yes, at the point it goes three wide Verstappen is already in the braking zone. Nothing he can do to back off at that stage. He can't just brake harder.

He can open up his steering and go straight. He's actively turning into the corner at the moment of the hit.

Now, I'm not saying he should have had to do anything. But unlike in Singapore, there is something he could have done. Drivers cut chicanes all the time when they realize there's an accident waiting to happen by turning in.


I'm not that convinced he even knew there was something that needed to be avoided. Kimi tucks up behind Bottas before moving more to the middle as Max commits to the outside and Kimi moving to the middle alone can be a perfectly normal defensive line against Max rather than an indicator there was someone now on the inside of him.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:10 pm 
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Nice post as it's often something overlooked with Hamilton. So few race-ending or damage inducing incidents is pretty remarkable given that he is known as a pretty aggressive driver.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:08 pm 
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Gumption wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ennis wrote:
I don't know why I'm allowing myself to even be drawn in to this stuff again, but Hamilton's slowing down was not sudden and it shouldn't have been unexpected. Given everyone else behind Vettel also had to 'suddenly stop', and managed to to do without running in to anyone, I'd say this shouldn't be unexpected.

The brake is even a red herring. Cars can touch the brake and not change speed through throttle control, cars can not touch the brake and slow down rapidly due to the mass of aero on the cars. Hamilton did slow, not particularly hugely in F1 terms, at a point where everyone and their dog knew he was going to start playing the game to get the jump (as every driver does). Vettel didn't want Hamilton to get the jump, got too close and got caught out. That's it. Barely even worth a conversation, if it hadn't been for his reaction afterwards.

Don't agree it shouldn't have been unexpected. I think it's reasonable for the following driver to stay as tight as possible to the car in front, particularly in a restart situation. Vettel got caught out, it happens, but OTOH he wouldn't be doing his job right if he gave the car in front too much room.

Again a total lack of understanding of the situation at hand, if Hamilton had accelerated at that point he would have passed the SC, Vettel had no need to be that close, he had to realise that Hamilton was too close to the SC to accelerate at that point, if anything you might consider it bullying by Vettel in order to force Hamilton into a mistake by trying to control the speed of Hamilton's car but that is the privilege of the lead car only.

If Hamilton was too close to the SC at that point, it's his fault. If he needed to slow down and a car is right behind him, he doesn't have the right to tap his brake and cause an incident. He should have veered over and slowed. Vettel needed to be on his gearbox. With the speed advantage Mercedes had, he couldn't afford to be any further behind. If the onboard footage didn't show Hamilton tap his brake I would just chalk it up to nothing more than a racing incident.

You have to drive within a set distance of the SC otherwise you can get penalised, then when the lights go out on the SC you then have to slow to create a gap for the restart otherwise you risk passing it and also getting penalised.

Vettel didn't need to be on Hamilton's gearbox because Hamilton was never going to restart from that corner otherwise he would have passed the SC, I don't know how many times this has to be repeated?

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Last edited by pokerman on Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:10 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Gumption wrote:
If there's no room behind you to brake (especially when you're coming out of a slow turn behind a safety car already going much slower than safety car speed with literally nothing in front of you for a kilometer) then you don't have the right to brake. If you want to slow down more, move over. Vettel had no obligation given their speed to have any gap. The braking on Hamilton's part was sudden and unexpected.

If anything, at a minimum the stewards/FIA screwed up by not clarifying what is and isn't brake-checking. Tapping your brake unnecessarily when a car is directly behind you at a very slow speed could definitely fall into that category.


I don't know why I'm allowing myself to even be drawn in to this stuff again, but Hamilton's slowing down was not sudden and it shouldn't have been unexpected. Given everyone else behind Vettel also had to 'suddenly stop', and managed to to do without running in to anyone, I'd say this shouldn't be unexpected.

The brake is even a red herring. Cars can touch the brake and not change speed through throttle control, cars can not touch the brake and slow down rapidly due to the mass of aero on the cars. Hamilton did slow, not particularly hugely in F1 terms, at a point where everyone and their dog knew he was going to start playing the game to get the jump (as every driver does). Vettel didn't want Hamilton to get the jump, got too close and got caught out. That's it. Barely even worth a conversation, if it hadn't been for his reaction afterwards.

Don't agree it shouldn't have been unexpected. I think it's reasonable for the following driver to stay as tight as possible to the car in front, particularly in a restart situation. Vettel got caught out, it happens, but OTOH he wouldn't be doing his job right if he gave the car in front too much room.

Again a total lack of understanding of the situation at hand, if Hamilton had accelerated at that point he would have passed the SC, Vettel had no need to be that close, he had to realise that Hamilton was too close to the SC to accelerate at that point, if anything you might consider it bullying by Vettel in order to force Hamilton into a mistake by trying to control the speed of Hamilton's car but that is the privilege of the lead car only.
im perfectly comfortable with my understanding of the situation, thanks. I just have a different viewpoint to yours

It's not a different viewpoint it's the actual situation at hand.

mikeyg123 wrote:
If Vettel really thought Hamilton may be about to drop the throttle with the safety car still in view and nearly a mile to start line then he really does have problems. No need for Web to be so close at that point because there's no way Hamilton could have gone for it for quite some time. Honestly the driver behind should not be so close as to make it impossible to avoid a crash if the driver in front dabs his brakes under non racing conditions. As for suggesting Hamilton was too close to the safety car.... every restart has to go through the same thing. The leader has to drop back from being close to being far enough away. Hamilton was at the start of that process. A process that tends to begin early in Baku due to the nature of the circuit. Hamilton's crew had already warned him he got very close to overtaking the safety car on the last restart.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:19 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Don't agree it shouldn't have been unexpected. I think it's reasonable for the following driver to stay as tight as possible to the car in front, particularly in a restart situation. Vettel got caught out, it happens, but OTOH he wouldn't be doing his job right if he gave the car in front too much room.


It's reasonable to stay as close as possible, but if you drive in to the car in front of you then you're no longer as close as possible - you've crossed that line.

well, we're back to whether it should have been expected, really. It's perfectly common for racing cars to follow each other through corners at a distance which would have the police being called on normal roads, sometimes to the extent that it can be hard to tell where one car ends and the other begins, precisely because drivers would not reasonably expect the car in front to slow down, except in very specific places. There are no hazards for them to anticipate. This inevitably means that if the car in front does something contrary to the norm, then the following car will be caught out and often won't have much time to react.

You can't compare cars traveling under race conditions to those traveling under SC conditions.

Nonsense. They are still racing, in that they are jockeying for position in order to be best placed to take advantage of the restart. They are not simply cruising

The race was never going to restart from that corner, Vettel's misjudgement.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:25 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
When the damage sustained is not his fault then yes. Obviously.

I think our point is that although it isn't really his fault, he is the one who puts himself in this situation by attempting an overtake. Lots of these are what have lead to problems for Verstappen.


I can think of only two I thought were over ambitious, Massa in Monza and Dan in Hungary. I can't think of many more in his career and I don't think they (his other moves) carried any more risk than what Bottas attempted in Mexico with Kimi for example.

And Max still wasn't trying to go 3 wide in Spain, he was trying to go 2 wide but the guy in front and on the inside of the car Max was trying to pass braked earlier than everyone else and made it an awkward three-way instead. No way Max should be expected to think someone backs out that much at T1, the video is borderline comical how early Bottas puts the anchor down...


Every cam except Verstappen's himself, one thing seems to be clear regarding the tightness of the chicane is that you are never going 3 wide around there.


No I wouldn't recommend it either but the point is no-one tried to. Max was trying to go 2 wide with Kimi which is perfectly normal. Here's his onboard..


Did he think that Bottas's car had magically disappeared?

He put himself in a vulnerable position, the chicane is too tight for 3 abreast.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:29 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Yes, at the point it goes three wide Verstappen is already in the braking zone. Nothing he can do to back off at that stage. He can't just brake harder.

He can open up his steering and go straight. He's actively turning into the corner at the moment of the hit.

Now, I'm not saying he should have had to do anything. But unlike in Singapore, there is something he could have done. Drivers cut chicanes all the time when they realize there's an accident waiting to happen by turning in.


I'm not that convinced he even knew there was something that needed to be avoided. Kimi tucks up behind Bottas before moving more to the middle as Max commits to the outside and Kimi moving to the middle alone can be a perfectly normal defensive line against Max rather than an indicator there was someone now on the inside of him.

Kimi's trying to pass Bottas on the outside whilst Verstappen is trying to pass Kimi on the ouside at the same time, does Bottas just disappear?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:41 pm 
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He doesn't need to. Verstappen left room for the pair of them.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:58 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I think our point is that although it isn't really his fault, he is the one who puts himself in this situation by attempting an overtake. Lots of these are what have lead to problems for Verstappen.


I can think of only two I thought were over ambitious, Massa in Monza and Dan in Hungary. I can't think of many more in his career and I don't think they (his other moves) carried any more risk than what Bottas attempted in Mexico with Kimi for example.

And Max still wasn't trying to go 3 wide in Spain, he was trying to go 2 wide but the guy in front and on the inside of the car Max was trying to pass braked earlier than everyone else and made it an awkward three-way instead. No way Max should be expected to think someone backs out that much at T1, the video is borderline comical how early Bottas puts the anchor down...


Every cam except Verstappen's himself, one thing seems to be clear regarding the tightness of the chicane is that you are never going 3 wide around there.


No I wouldn't recommend it either but the point is no-one tried to. Max was trying to go 2 wide with Kimi which is perfectly normal. Here's his onboard..


Did he think that Bottas's car had magically disappeared?

He put himself in a vulnerable position, the chicane is too tight for 3 abreast.


Bottas is ahead of both, he doesn't need to disappear. When Bottas brakes/lifts he's fully alongside Lewis, not Kimi and Max. (10s mark)

You can see Kimi pull in behind Bottas on the run to T1,right? When Kimi moves to the middle again and Max moves to the outside of Kimi, Bottas is still ahead and on the inside of Kimi as you can see on the onboards provided. (around 11s mark)

It should have been 1-2-2 going in, but Bottas braking so early to get out of Lewis's way as both Kimi and Max are on the outside turns it into a 1-1-3.

Max was trying to pass Kimi around the outside, not Kimi and the driver who was comfortably a car length ahead on the inside and challenging Lewis. Why on earth should Max expect Bottas to fight the two cars behind him at that stage instead of the two cars in front? Who does that? By the time it was a 3 way Max was already on the outside and in the braking zone so unless he doesn't bother turning right and goes straight on there's not much else to do.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:09 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Yes, at the point it goes three wide Verstappen is already in the braking zone. Nothing he can do to back off at that stage. He can't just brake harder.

He can open up his steering and go straight. He's actively turning into the corner at the moment of the hit.

Now, I'm not saying he should have had to do anything. But unlike in Singapore, there is something he could have done. Drivers cut chicanes all the time when they realize there's an accident waiting to happen by turning in.


I'm not that convinced he even knew there was something that needed to be avoided. Kimi tucks up behind Bottas before moving more to the middle as Max commits to the outside and Kimi moving to the middle alone can be a perfectly normal defensive line against Max rather than an indicator there was someone now on the inside of him.

Kimi's trying to pass Bottas on the outside whilst Verstappen is trying to pass Kimi on the ouside at the same time, does Bottas just disappear?


Bottas is ahead of both so rather than disappear he could just try staying ahead, that would've worked fine but it would've involved fighting Lewis at the start which either isn't allowed or he bottled it for whatever reason.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:28 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I think our point is that although it isn't really his fault, he is the one who puts himself in this situation by attempting an overtake. Lots of these are what have lead to problems for Verstappen.


I can think of only two I thought were over ambitious, Massa in Monza and Dan in Hungary. I can't think of many more in his career and I don't think they (his other moves) carried any more risk than what Bottas attempted in Mexico with Kimi for example.

And Max still wasn't trying to go 3 wide in Spain, he was trying to go 2 wide but the guy in front and on the inside of the car Max was trying to pass braked earlier than everyone else and made it an awkward three-way instead. No way Max should be expected to think someone backs out that much at T1, the video is borderline comical how early Bottas puts the anchor down...


Every cam except Verstappen's himself, one thing seems to be clear regarding the tightness of the chicane is that you are never going 3 wide around there.


No I wouldn't recommend it either but the point is no-one tried to. Max was trying to go 2 wide with Kimi which is perfectly normal. Here's his onboard..


Did he think that Bottas's car had magically disappeared?

He put himself in a vulnerable position, the chicane is too tight for 3 abreast.


Oh well, I think I agree with pokerman about this. I think that video concludes my views. As well as EJ's and Chandhoks from Channel 4. Verstappen had sight of Bottas ahead of him. Bottas did brake earlier than necessary, but I still think Verstappen should have been a little more aware and could have done something different. He should have noticed that Bottas slipped out of sight as Kimi passed him, meaning that he was either alongside Kimi or behind. If he was behind, he could have seen in his mirrors. But he was along side and Verstappen can't have expected him to disappear. So to me, Bottas triggered this by braking early, But Verstappen easily could have avoided turning in quite as early as he did given he should have known that he must have been going into the corner 3 wide. If he didn't know, then I think that is basically another small mistake from him of not being fully aware of his surroundings or taking too high a risk, which was I think partly what Chandhok was pointing out. But again, I can't say it is anything other than a racing incident.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:47 am 
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I don't see how giving more space to Kimi would have prevented an accident? Kimi was already not using all the space Verstappen was leaving as it was.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:26 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
He doesn't need to. Verstappen left room for the pair of them.

He left enough room for himself to stay on the track but not enough room for the two cars on the inside of him, I believe Bottas even went onto the inside kerb?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:29 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I can think of only two I thought were over ambitious, Massa in Monza and Dan in Hungary. I can't think of many more in his career and I don't think they (his other moves) carried any more risk than what Bottas attempted in Mexico with Kimi for example.

And Max still wasn't trying to go 3 wide in Spain, he was trying to go 2 wide but the guy in front and on the inside of the car Max was trying to pass braked earlier than everyone else and made it an awkward three-way instead. No way Max should be expected to think someone backs out that much at T1, the video is borderline comical how early Bottas puts the anchor down...


Every cam except Verstappen's himself, one thing seems to be clear regarding the tightness of the chicane is that you are never going 3 wide around there.


No I wouldn't recommend it either but the point is no-one tried to. Max was trying to go 2 wide with Kimi which is perfectly normal. Here's his onboard..


Did he think that Bottas's car had magically disappeared?

He put himself in a vulnerable position, the chicane is too tight for 3 abreast.


Bottas is ahead of both, he doesn't need to disappear. When Bottas brakes/lifts he's fully alongside Lewis, not Kimi and Max. (10s mark)

You can see Kimi pull in behind Bottas on the run to T1,right? When Kimi moves to the middle again and Max moves to the outside of Kimi, Bottas is still ahead and on the inside of Kimi as you can see on the onboards provided. (around 11s mark)

It should have been 1-2-2 going in, but Bottas braking so early to get out of Lewis's way as both Kimi and Max are on the outside turns it into a 1-1-3.

Max was trying to pass Kimi around the outside, not Kimi and the driver who was comfortably a car length ahead on the inside and challenging Lewis. Why on earth should Max expect Bottas to fight the two cars behind him at that stage instead of the two cars in front? Who does that? By the time it was a 3 way Max was already on the outside and in the braking zone so unless he doesn't bother turning right and goes straight on there's not much else to do.

Verstappen can see there are now only 2 cars in front of him so were is Bottas, he doesn't consider there might be 2 cars on the inside of him?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:32 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Yes, at the point it goes three wide Verstappen is already in the braking zone. Nothing he can do to back off at that stage. He can't just brake harder.

He can open up his steering and go straight. He's actively turning into the corner at the moment of the hit.

Now, I'm not saying he should have had to do anything. But unlike in Singapore, there is something he could have done. Drivers cut chicanes all the time when they realize there's an accident waiting to happen by turning in.


I'm not that convinced he even knew there was something that needed to be avoided. Kimi tucks up behind Bottas before moving more to the middle as Max commits to the outside and Kimi moving to the middle alone can be a perfectly normal defensive line against Max rather than an indicator there was someone now on the inside of him.

Kimi's trying to pass Bottas on the outside whilst Verstappen is trying to pass Kimi on the ouside at the same time, does Bottas just disappear?


Bottas is ahead of both so rather than disappear he could just try staying ahead, that would've worked fine but it would've involved fighting Lewis at the start which either isn't allowed or he bottled it for whatever reason.

He choose not to fight him, Kimi's car is nowhere near the inside of the corner, he could reason there being a car on the inside of Kimi that being Bottas seeing as he no longer sees Bottas in front of him.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:02 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
He doesn't need to. Verstappen left room for the pair of them.

He left enough room for himself to stay on the track but not enough room for the two cars on the inside of him, I believe Bottas even went onto the inside kerb?


Have a look again. Kimi is not up against Vertsappen. With Kimi not using all the space given to him what makes you think he would have given Bottas more room if Verstappen had been wider. Kimi could already have given Bottas more space but didn't.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:47 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Every cam except Verstappen's himself, one thing seems to be clear regarding the tightness of the chicane is that you are never going 3 wide around there.


No I wouldn't recommend it either but the point is no-one tried to. Max was trying to go 2 wide with Kimi which is perfectly normal. Here's his onboard..


Did he think that Bottas's car had magically disappeared?

He put himself in a vulnerable position, the chicane is too tight for 3 abreast.


Bottas is ahead of both, he doesn't need to disappear. When Bottas brakes/lifts he's fully alongside Lewis, not Kimi and Max. (10s mark)

You can see Kimi pull in behind Bottas on the run to T1,right? When Kimi moves to the middle again and Max moves to the outside of Kimi, Bottas is still ahead and on the inside of Kimi as you can see on the onboards provided. (around 11s mark)

It should have been 1-2-2 going in, but Bottas braking so early to get out of Lewis's way as both Kimi and Max are on the outside turns it into a 1-1-3.

Max was trying to pass Kimi around the outside, not Kimi and the driver who was comfortably a car length ahead on the inside and challenging Lewis. Why on earth should Max expect Bottas to fight the two cars behind him at that stage instead of the two cars in front? Who does that? By the time it was a 3 way Max was already on the outside and in the braking zone so unless he doesn't bother turning right and goes straight on there's not much else to do.

Verstappen can see there are now only 2 cars in front of him so were is Bottas, he doesn't consider there might be 2 cars on the inside of him?


He can? He's got the front of Kimi's car blocking the view to behind Seb, remember he's sitting low and in the middle of his own car and Kimi is half a car ahead of him before he outbrakes Kimi to get alongside. The only time he'll see Bottas is no longer up Seb's backside is when he's already under braking and about to turn in so what do you want him to do? Go straight on because Bottas messed up and now suddenly there's three of them instead of two?

Why is he the one it falls on to do something and not the other two, including the man who creates it and has already scrubbed off more speed by lifting/braking earlier. If anyone can back out of it safely at that stage it's Bottas, he can get back on the brakes fully and let Kimi go as he had Lewis for example.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:53 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

No I wouldn't recommend it either but the point is no-one tried to. Max was trying to go 2 wide with Kimi which is perfectly normal. Here's his onboard..


Did he think that Bottas's car had magically disappeared?

He put himself in a vulnerable position, the chicane is too tight for 3 abreast.


Bottas is ahead of both, he doesn't need to disappear. When Bottas brakes/lifts he's fully alongside Lewis, not Kimi and Max. (10s mark)

You can see Kimi pull in behind Bottas on the run to T1,right? When Kimi moves to the middle again and Max moves to the outside of Kimi, Bottas is still ahead and on the inside of Kimi as you can see on the onboards provided. (around 11s mark)

It should have been 1-2-2 going in, but Bottas braking so early to get out of Lewis's way as both Kimi and Max are on the outside turns it into a 1-1-3.

Max was trying to pass Kimi around the outside, not Kimi and the driver who was comfortably a car length ahead on the inside and challenging Lewis. Why on earth should Max expect Bottas to fight the two cars behind him at that stage instead of the two cars in front? Who does that? By the time it was a 3 way Max was already on the outside and in the braking zone so unless he doesn't bother turning right and goes straight on there's not much else to do.

Verstappen can see there are now only 2 cars in front of him so were is Bottas, he doesn't consider there might be 2 cars on the inside of him?


He can? He's got the front of Kimi's car blocking the view to behind Seb, remember he's sitting low and in the middle of his own car and Kimi is half a car ahead of him before he outbrakes Kimi to get alongside. The only time he'll see Bottas is no longer up Seb's backside is when he's already under braking and about to turn in so what do you want him to do? Go straight on because Bottas messed up and now suddenly there's three of them instead of two?

Why is he the one it falls on to do something and not the other two, including the man who creates it and has already scrubbed off more speed by lifting/braking earlier. If anyone can back out of it safely at that stage it's Bottas, he can get back on the brakes fully and let Kimi go as he had Lewis for example.


Still think I agree with pokermon here about noticing there are less cars ahead of him. From his onboard, he started to pull alongside Kimi, and I do not get how he didn't think Bottas could still be on his inside. So I guess he maybe just wasn't aware if that is the case, then in my view it is a bit of a mistake. There was a fraction more space for Kimi to allow Bottas more room, but barely anything. If Bottas had slipped behind Kimi, Kimi will have gone much tighter than he did. So this should have indicated to Verstappen that he should have left more room I'd say (which he certainly could have done).

I can't find Chandhoks view on things, but many of Verstappen's incidents were discussed in the build up of the race in Singapore on Channel 4. This is what Webber said while watching Verstappen's on board.

"Goes to the outside. That's the key decision. Very vulnerable now, extremely vulnerable and boom, out of the race"

I think Chandhok's description as to why he though Verstappen was in the wrong was the best but I think EJ's was better than Webber's. EJ said:

"He gives himself no chance. The slightest mistake you know, 3 into 1 corner doesn't go. And what happens? Suddenly his race is over."

These messages don't look very good unless you hear their expression while they are describing it while they are watching the replay though.
Some of the things EJ said I thought were a bit unreasonable so I didn't include them. But I think he was implying that he was aware that there were 3 going into the corner and should have expected that this sort of thing was very likely to happen if he took that risk. No other drivers went 3 wide into this corner at the start. Bottas in a way did trigger the situation, but not the crash in my view. Verstappen should have been able to see tell that Bottas slipped back, but didn't slip behind Kimi by judging that Kimi wasn't going tight round the corner. I still think Verstappen was the most to blame for this, then Bottas, then Kimi. But a racing incident sort of concludes that the stewards don't blame Bottas as he was the only one who got away without any damage or retiring. And in the rules this year although the penalties have been less strict, it was clearly stated that if one driver was predominantly to blame for a first lap collision, they would get punished.


But like we have said before, I get the feeling we won't be able to agree on this. But I generally tend to agree with the stewards. As they are in charge and they have access to much more data and evidence than we will ever see.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:07 am 
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Verstappen isn't trying to go 3 wide in the corner. By the time that happens there is nothing he can do about it.

Kimi is using all the room available as it is. He has at least half a cars width to spare.

I don't see how Verstappen could be blamed for either of those things.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:09 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Still think I agree with pokermon here about noticing there are less cars ahead of him. From his onboard, he started to pull alongside Kimi, and I do not get how he didn't think Bottas could still be on his inside. So I guess he maybe just wasn't aware if that is the case, then in my view it is a bit of a mistake. There was a fraction more space for Kimi to allow Bottas more room, but barely anything. If Bottas had slipped behind Kimi, Kimi will have gone much tighter than he did. So this should have indicated to Verstappen that he should have left more room I'd say (which he certainly could have done).

I can't find Chandhoks view on things, but many of Verstappen's incidents were discussed in the build up of the race in Singapore on Channel 4. This is what Webber said while watching Verstappen's on board.

"Goes to the outside. That's the key decision. Very vulnerable now, extremely vulnerable and boom, out of the race"

I think Chandhok's description as to why he though Verstappen was in the wrong was the best but I think EJ's was better than Webber's. EJ said:

"He gives himself no chance. The slightest mistake you know, 3 into 1 corner doesn't go. And what happens? Suddenly his race is over."

These messages don't look very good unless you hear their expression while they are describing it while they are watching the replay though.
Some of the things EJ said I thought were a bit unreasonable so I didn't include them. But I think he was implying that he was aware that there were 3 going into the corner and should have expected that this sort of thing was very likely to happen if he took that risk. No other drivers went 3 wide into this corner at the start. Bottas in a way did trigger the situation, but not the crash in my view. Verstappen should have been able to see tell that Bottas slipped back, but didn't slip behind Kimi by judging that Kimi wasn't going tight round the corner. I still think Verstappen was the most to blame for this, then Bottas, then Kimi. But a racing incident sort of concludes that the stewards don't blame Bottas as he was the only one who got away without any damage or retiring. And in the rules this year although the penalties have been less strict, it was clearly stated that if one driver was predominantly to blame for a first lap collision, they would get punished.


But like we have said before, I get the feeling we won't be able to agree on this. But I generally tend to agree with the stewards. As they are in charge and they have access to much more data and evidence than we will ever see.



Haha, I read Pokemon!!!

Sorry to derail this, but I found it funny, my eyes played tricks.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:35 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Did he think that Bottas's car had magically disappeared?

He put himself in a vulnerable position, the chicane is too tight for 3 abreast.


Bottas is ahead of both, he doesn't need to disappear. When Bottas brakes/lifts he's fully alongside Lewis, not Kimi and Max. (10s mark)

You can see Kimi pull in behind Bottas on the run to T1,right? When Kimi moves to the middle again and Max moves to the outside of Kimi, Bottas is still ahead and on the inside of Kimi as you can see on the onboards provided. (around 11s mark)

It should have been 1-2-2 going in, but Bottas braking so early to get out of Lewis's way as both Kimi and Max are on the outside turns it into a 1-1-3.

Max was trying to pass Kimi around the outside, not Kimi and the driver who was comfortably a car length ahead on the inside and challenging Lewis. Why on earth should Max expect Bottas to fight the two cars behind him at that stage instead of the two cars in front? Who does that? By the time it was a 3 way Max was already on the outside and in the braking zone so unless he doesn't bother turning right and goes straight on there's not much else to do.

Verstappen can see there are now only 2 cars in front of him so were is Bottas, he doesn't consider there might be 2 cars on the inside of him?


He can? He's got the front of Kimi's car blocking the view to behind Seb, remember he's sitting low and in the middle of his own car and Kimi is half a car ahead of him before he outbrakes Kimi to get alongside. The only time he'll see Bottas is no longer up Seb's backside is when he's already under braking and about to turn in so what do you want him to do? Go straight on because Bottas messed up and now suddenly there's three of them instead of two?

Why is he the one it falls on to do something and not the other two, including the man who creates it and has already scrubbed off more speed by lifting/braking earlier. If anyone can back out of it safely at that stage it's Bottas, he can get back on the brakes fully and let Kimi go as he had Lewis for example.


Still think I agree with pokermon here about noticing there are less cars ahead of him. From his onboard, he started to pull alongside Kimi, and I do not get how he didn't think Bottas could still be on his inside. So I guess he maybe just wasn't aware if that is the case, then in my view it is a bit of a mistake. There was a fraction more space for Kimi to allow Bottas more room, but barely anything. If Bottas had slipped behind Kimi, Kimi will have gone much tighter than he did. So this should have indicated to Verstappen that he should have left more room I'd say (which he certainly could have done).

I can't find Chandhoks view on things, but many of Verstappen's incidents were discussed in the build up of the race in Singapore on Channel 4. This is what Webber said while watching Verstappen's on board.

"Goes to the outside. That's the key decision. Very vulnerable now, extremely vulnerable and boom, out of the race"

I think Chandhok's description as to why he though Verstappen was in the wrong was the best but I think EJ's was better than Webber's. EJ said:

"He gives himself no chance. The slightest mistake you know, 3 into 1 corner doesn't go. And what happens? Suddenly his race is over."

These messages don't look very good unless you hear their expression while they are describing it while they are watching the replay though.
Some of the things EJ said I thought were a bit unreasonable so I didn't include them. But I think he was implying that he was aware that there were 3 going into the corner and should have expected that this sort of thing was very likely to happen if he took that risk. No other drivers went 3 wide into this corner at the start. Bottas in a way did trigger the situation, but not the crash in my view. Verstappen should have been able to see tell that Bottas slipped back, but didn't slip behind Kimi by judging that Kimi wasn't going tight round the corner. I still think Verstappen was the most to blame for this, then Bottas, then Kimi. But a racing incident sort of concludes that the stewards don't blame Bottas as he was the only one who got away without any damage or retiring. And in the rules this year although the penalties have been less strict, it was clearly stated that if one driver was predominantly to blame for a first lap collision, they would get punished.


But like we have said before, I get the feeling we won't be able to agree on this. But I generally tend to agree with the stewards. As they are in charge and they have access to much more data and evidence than we will ever see.


You say that like Bottas's position doesn't change. Bottas was ahead of Kimi and Max a few metres before the 100m board and Max was only halfway alongside Kimi. Why would Max even consider Bottas, who's fully ahead of Kimi would bail on the battle in front and join Max and Kimi's behind him? Who does that?

At what point do you think Max chooses to outbrake Kimi to get fully alongside? The closing speeds of Bottas who's ahead and on the inside but lifting/braking before 100m and Max who's behind not just Bottas but Kimi and is braking late beyond 100m is enormous. There is no time for Max to change his mind about outbraking Kimi, once you haven't hit the brakes, you haven't hit the brakes. And when he chose to do so Bottas was fully ahead and shouldn't have been involved, he still should be up Seb's rear.

By the time Max is far enough alongside Kimi to see Bottas is no longer up Seb's backside on the right and inside of Kimi it's a fait accompli, they're 3 abreast and he can either turn in and hope Bottas has bailed further or doesn't understeer or he can bail himself and go straight on and ruin his race because Bottas wet himself.

Bottas though, who's scrubbed off more speed by braking earlier, can back out of the 3 abreast if he wanted to so I still don't see how it falls on Max. One man created it by bailing from the battle in front and one man had scrubbed enough speed off to allow further braking and the ability to back out of the 3 way safely.

Both the same man which is Bottas. But it's Max fault?

Happy to agree to disagree.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:24 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Did he think that Bottas's car had magically disappeared?

Bottas is ahead of both, he doesn't need to disappear. When Bottas brakes/lifts he's fully alongside Lewis, not Kimi and Max. (10s mark)

You can see Kimi pull in behind Bottas on the run to T1,right? When Kimi moves to the middle again and Max moves to the outside of Kimi, Bottas is still ahead and on the inside of Kimi as you can see on the onboards provided. (around 11s mark)

It should have been 1-2-2 going in, but Bottas braking so early to get out of Lewis's way as both Kimi and Max are on the outside turns it into a 1-1-3.

Max was trying to pass Kimi around the outside, not Kimi and the driver who was comfortably a car length ahead on the inside and challenging Lewis. Why on earth should Max expect Bottas to fight the two cars behind him at that stage instead of the two cars in front? Who does that? By the time it was a 3 way Max was already on the outside and in the braking zone so unless he doesn't bother turning right and goes straight on there's not much else to do.

Verstappen can see there are now only 2 cars in front of him so were is Bottas, he doesn't consider there might be 2 cars on the inside of him?


He can? He's got the front of Kimi's car blocking the view to behind Seb, remember he's sitting low and in the middle of his own car and Kimi is half a car ahead of him before he outbrakes Kimi to get alongside. The only time he'll see Bottas is no longer up Seb's backside is when he's already under braking and about to turn in so what do you want him to do? Go straight on because Bottas messed up and now suddenly there's three of them instead of two?

Why is he the one it falls on to do something and not the other two, including the man who creates it and has already scrubbed off more speed by lifting/braking earlier. If anyone can back out of it safely at that stage it's Bottas, he can get back on the brakes fully and let Kimi go as he had Lewis for example.


Still think I agree with pokermon here about noticing there are less cars ahead of him. From his onboard, he started to pull alongside Kimi, and I do not get how he didn't think Bottas could still be on his inside. So I guess he maybe just wasn't aware if that is the case, then in my view it is a bit of a mistake. There was a fraction more space for Kimi to allow Bottas more room, but barely anything. If Bottas had slipped behind Kimi, Kimi will have gone much tighter than he did. So this should have indicated to Verstappen that he should have left more room I'd say (which he certainly could have done).

I can't find Chandhoks view on things, but many of Verstappen's incidents were discussed in the build up of the race in Singapore on Channel 4. This is what Webber said while watching Verstappen's on board.

"Goes to the outside. That's the key decision. Very vulnerable now, extremely vulnerable and boom, out of the race"

I think Chandhok's description as to why he though Verstappen was in the wrong was the best but I think EJ's was better than Webber's. EJ said:

"He gives himself no chance. The slightest mistake you know, 3 into 1 corner doesn't go. And what happens? Suddenly his race is over."

These messages don't look very good unless you hear their expression while they are describing it while they are watching the replay though.
Some of the things EJ said I thought were a bit unreasonable so I didn't include them. But I think he was implying that he was aware that there were 3 going into the corner and should have expected that this sort of thing was very likely to happen if he took that risk. No other drivers went 3 wide into this corner at the start. Bottas in a way did trigger the situation, but not the crash in my view. Verstappen should have been able to see tell that Bottas slipped back, but didn't slip behind Kimi by judging that Kimi wasn't going tight round the corner. I still think Verstappen was the most to blame for this, then Bottas, then Kimi. But a racing incident sort of concludes that the stewards don't blame Bottas as he was the only one who got away without any damage or retiring. And in the rules this year although the penalties have been less strict, it was clearly stated that if one driver was predominantly to blame for a first lap collision, they would get punished.


But like we have said before, I get the feeling we won't be able to agree on this. But I generally tend to agree with the stewards. As they are in charge and they have access to much more data and evidence than we will ever see.


You say that like Bottas's position doesn't change. Bottas was ahead of Kimi and Max a few metres before the 100m board and Max was only halfway alongside Kimi. Why would Max even consider Bottas, who's fully ahead of Kimi would bail on the battle in front and join Max and Kimi's behind him? Who does that?

At what point do you think Max chooses to outbrake Kimi to get fully alongside? The closing speeds of Bottas who's ahead and on the inside but lifting/braking before 100m and Max who's behind not just Bottas but Kimi and is braking late beyond 100m is enormous. There is no time for Max to change his mind about outbraking Kimi, once you haven't hit the brakes, you haven't hit the brakes. And when he chose to do so Bottas was fully ahead and shouldn't have been involved, he still should be up Seb's rear.

By the time Max is far enough alongside Kimi to see Bottas is no longer up Seb's backside on the right and inside of Kimi it's a fait accompli, they're 3 abreast and he can either turn in and hope Bottas has bailed further or doesn't understeer or he can bail himself and go straight on and ruin his race because Bottas wet himself.

Bottas though, who's scrubbed off more speed by braking earlier, can back out of the 3 abreast if he wanted to so I still don't see how it falls on Max. One man created it by bailing from the battle in front and one man had scrubbed enough speed off to allow further braking and the ability to back out of the 3 way safely.

Both the same man which is Bottas. But it's Max fault?

Happy to agree to disagree.


Yea I guess we just won't agree :lol: , But I still think Verstappen should have known that Bottas could be there. From his on board replay, he knows Bottas is ahead of him to start with. As Kimi suddenly lunges to the left well before the corner to try and get past Bottas. At that point Verstappen should have seen Bottas for a moment on the far right side of the track. Then he goes almost fully along side to the left of Kimi before turning into the corner, and there is no chance that he can't have noticed that Bottas was out of sight and no longer ahead of Kimi like he was at the start. Indicating that he was very likely on the inside of Kimi due to how wide Kimi was going.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:28 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Verstappen can see there are now only 2 cars in front of him so were is Bottas, he doesn't consider there might be 2 cars on the inside of him?


He can? He's got the front of Kimi's car blocking the view to behind Seb, remember he's sitting low and in the middle of his own car and Kimi is half a car ahead of him before he outbrakes Kimi to get alongside. The only time he'll see Bottas is no longer up Seb's backside is when he's already under braking and about to turn in so what do you want him to do? Go straight on because Bottas messed up and now suddenly there's three of them instead of two?

Why is he the one it falls on to do something and not the other two, including the man who creates it and has already scrubbed off more speed by lifting/braking earlier. If anyone can back out of it safely at that stage it's Bottas, he can get back on the brakes fully and let Kimi go as he had Lewis for example.


Still think I agree with pokermon here about noticing there are less cars ahead of him. From his onboard, he started to pull alongside Kimi, and I do not get how he didn't think Bottas could still be on his inside. So I guess he maybe just wasn't aware if that is the case, then in my view it is a bit of a mistake. There was a fraction more space for Kimi to allow Bottas more room, but barely anything. If Bottas had slipped behind Kimi, Kimi will have gone much tighter than he did. So this should have indicated to Verstappen that he should have left more room I'd say (which he certainly could have done).

I can't find Chandhoks view on things, but many of Verstappen's incidents were discussed in the build up of the race in Singapore on Channel 4. This is what Webber said while watching Verstappen's on board.

"Goes to the outside. That's the key decision. Very vulnerable now, extremely vulnerable and boom, out of the race"

I think Chandhok's description as to why he though Verstappen was in the wrong was the best but I think EJ's was better than Webber's. EJ said:

"He gives himself no chance. The slightest mistake you know, 3 into 1 corner doesn't go. And what happens? Suddenly his race is over."

These messages don't look very good unless you hear their expression while they are describing it while they are watching the replay though.
Some of the things EJ said I thought were a bit unreasonable so I didn't include them. But I think he was implying that he was aware that there were 3 going into the corner and should have expected that this sort of thing was very likely to happen if he took that risk. No other drivers went 3 wide into this corner at the start. Bottas in a way did trigger the situation, but not the crash in my view. Verstappen should have been able to see tell that Bottas slipped back, but didn't slip behind Kimi by judging that Kimi wasn't going tight round the corner. I still think Verstappen was the most to blame for this, then Bottas, then Kimi. But a racing incident sort of concludes that the stewards don't blame Bottas as he was the only one who got away without any damage or retiring. And in the rules this year although the penalties have been less strict, it was clearly stated that if one driver was predominantly to blame for a first lap collision, they would get punished.


But like we have said before, I get the feeling we won't be able to agree on this. But I generally tend to agree with the stewards. As they are in charge and they have access to much more data and evidence than we will ever see.


You say that like Bottas's position doesn't change. Bottas was ahead of Kimi and Max a few metres before the 100m board and Max was only halfway alongside Kimi. Why would Max even consider Bottas, who's fully ahead of Kimi would bail on the battle in front and join Max and Kimi's behind him? Who does that?

At what point do you think Max chooses to outbrake Kimi to get fully alongside? The closing speeds of Bottas who's ahead and on the inside but lifting/braking before 100m and Max who's behind not just Bottas but Kimi and is braking late beyond 100m is enormous. There is no time for Max to change his mind about outbraking Kimi, once you haven't hit the brakes, you haven't hit the brakes. And when he chose to do so Bottas was fully ahead and shouldn't have been involved, he still should be up Seb's rear.

By the time Max is far enough alongside Kimi to see Bottas is no longer up Seb's backside on the right and inside of Kimi it's a fait accompli, they're 3 abreast and he can either turn in and hope Bottas has bailed further or doesn't understeer or he can bail himself and go straight on and ruin his race because Bottas wet himself.

Bottas though, who's scrubbed off more speed by braking earlier, can back out of the 3 abreast if he wanted to so I still don't see how it falls on Max. One man created it by bailing from the battle in front and one man had scrubbed enough speed off to allow further braking and the ability to back out of the 3 way safely.

Both the same man which is Bottas. But it's Max fault?

Happy to agree to disagree.


Yea I guess we just won't agree :lol: , But I still think Verstappen should have known that Bottas could be there. From his on board replay, he knows Bottas is ahead of him to start with. As Kimi suddenly lunges to the left well before the corner to try and get past Bottas. At that point Verstappen should have seen Bottas for a moment on the far right side of the track. Then he goes almost fully along side to the left of Kimi before turning into the corner, and there is no chance that he can't have noticed that Bottas was out of sight and no longer ahead of Kimi like he was at the start. Indicating that he was very likely on the inside of Kimi due to how wide Kimi was going.


Bottas had the best start so no reason to think Kimi in a less powerful car would pass him or pull alongside before T1 and Kimi moved to the middle at the same time as Max moved to the outside but Max was only part alongside Kimi so taking his seating position into consideration there's no way he sees a car in front and on the inside of the car that was in front and on the inside of himself.

Not until he outbrakes Kimi to get fully alongside and by then there's nothing he can do anyway as he's under braking and committed to it.(Apart from not turn in of course but that's silly imo and applies to all three of them anyway).

Why can't Bottas back out further and avoid the 3-way then?

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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