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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:22 pm 
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lamo wrote:
The pattern is the same for Alonso too, 2005 and 2006 combined he made one error in hitting the wall at the 2005 Canadian GP.

Fast forward to 2007 and under pressure from a fast team mate, no comfort zone in the WDC and he made more errors in the 2007 Canadian GP than he did the entire 2004,2005 and 2006 seasons combined as well as others throughout 2007. 2010 when he was on the fringes of the title also had a lot of errors especially early in the year.

2015-2017 he was firmly in the pack at the back so its a completely different ball game, but put him back into the 2005/2006 Renault situation and he would make zero errors again.


On 2007 he also had new team, brakes and tyres to get used to as well as a fast team mate but agree overall.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:54 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Not that is is that long compared to Hamilton, but has Bottas actually ever been deemed responsible for his or anyone else’s retirement in qualifying or the race? I didn't follow 2013 very well, but from 2014, I don't think Bottas has ever crashed out and not been able to get going again in qualifying or the race. I remember the commentators saying something like this at the end of 2015. I don't even remember him crashing out in practice due to his own errors either and I usually do follow practice. And I think he's the only driver on the grid who is still here now who has managed to avoid causing any retirements. Some may have your arguments in Spain this year. But the fact was it was a racing incident and he was the only one involved not to suffer. They did say that they would be less strict on lap 1 collisions, but they still said that is one driver was predominantly to blame, they would be punished. So I just don't blame Bottas for this. Racing incident.

This is in a way a positive to what many think of Bottas as being overly cautious. It has certainly kept him out of trouble a lot of his career. Other drivers take risks, but look at the amount of incidents they have got involved in. However, Taking risks very often does pay off so I still think Bottas should take more than he does.

I hold Bottas responsible for taking Kimi out in Baku this year, so there's one. However, if you're asking if he's ever received a penalty from the stewards for causing a collision that led to a DNF for the other driver, I don't actually know. Probably not. But Verstappen has never received a penalty for dangerous driving, either...

He crashed out of a race early 2014 when he hit a wall, I can't remember which track, he got blamed by some for crashing Kimi out in Baku and also he got blamed by some for the 3 car collision which saw Kimi and Verstappen retire from the race.


Oz he hit the wall in 2014, should have been a podium, he was the quickest guy on track behind Nico. Collision in Russia with Kimi one year as well I think on the last lap, there was a running story for a while of those two coming together. Spain and Baku this year as you mention. He hit Lewis at a start I think in Bahrain or China in 2016 as well iirc.



Apologies for not knowing how to reply separately to each quote so I will just state the name of who I am replaying to.



Exediron, I was talking about Bottas being responsible for a retirement. We can hardly say he made Kimi retire can we? He lost him about 2 or 3 places. We can't say Bottas was the one who triggered the 2 Force Indias to contact each other resulting in some of their body work hitting Kimi. That was what caused Kimi the biggest issues. If you go as far as saying that he was behind the Force Indias because of what Bottas did then you could say a whole load of other incidents could be avoidable. The rest of Kimi's race that resulted in retirement was pure bad luck and not related to Bottas. Even with the incident, it was deemed to be 50 - 50 blame. They won't have just done that because it was the start. As just because it is the start they wouldn't say you were equally responsible then and not later. This is quoted from F1 Fanatic and is what the stewards verdict was: “The stewards examined video evidence and considered that car seven [Raikkonen] was making a speculative pass on the outside of car 77 [Bottas] in turn two and that car 77 hit the kerb and was pushed wide into car seven,” they noted. “The stewards determined that no driver was wholly or predominately to blame for the collision.” https://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/06/26/ ... no-action/

I at first blamed Bottas most, but after watching many replays and seeing their view, I think they were equally at fault and Bottas was the one who suffered most from the incident itself. But I guess I should respect that everyone can have an opinion. I'm just basing it on what the stewards decided and I don't see how he was responsible for Kimi retiring.
Regarding Verstappen, I don't think he has received a penalty for dangerous driving no, but he has been responsible for his or others retirements several times. I can remember at leased 6 times when he was responsible for a retirement. Monaco and Britain 2015. Then 3 crashes in a single weekend in Monaco the following year (just involving himself). Then knocking Ricciardo out in Hungary last year. It is a bit a harsh including practice but in Baku, he crashed out right at the end of Q3 after the flag I think. Not the smartest thing to do just before qualifying. The main reason why I have been including practice is because I never remember Bottas causing his retirement in this either.



pokerman, I remember the commentators on the BBC mentioning just after Kimi and Bottas came together in Russia 2015 that Bottas had never been deemed responsible for his own or anyone else retirement, even in qualifying over his F1 career. I think they will have remembered if he had crashed out in a race in 2014 which was just the year before at the time. But I remember that race in Australia pretty well. He certainly did ruin it. He went much wider than necessary which he should have got away with if there was no wall but that wasn't the case. So he ended up puncturing his rear right tyre. But it wasn't a retirement. About Baku, I know you are saying that he got blamed by some (maybe not you yourself) for crashing Kimi out, but I think those words are maybe a bit strong. Bottas didn't crash Kimi out, he had contact which knocked him down a few places. The rest could have happened anyway and it wasn't related to Bottas as he was right at the back.




Lotus49, I think a podium may have possibly been reachable but as Bottas lost it so early, It is a bit hard to tell. But he certainly did loose a chance of one. Bottas certainly has been involved with several incidents with Kimi like you say. I think virtually everyone fully blamed Kimi for what happened in Russia 2015. Then they came together again in Mexico and Kimi retired this time with broken suspension. Again, everybody did seem to blame Kimi and it didn't get investigated any further by the stewards. Then it was Bahrain 2016 he was a bit optimistic in the first corner and hit Hamilton. But on F1 Fanatic, many of us thought the penalty Bottas got was one of the most harsh of the season. Even Hamilton said Bottas had no need to apologise afterwards in an interview almost implying that he thought the penalty was a bit much. It was a drive through penalty with 2 penalty points for a first corner incident that resulted in Hamilton spinning and loosing just 5 places. However, he certainly did have a bit of damage which did slightly reduce the cars performance. I actually think that may have been the only time in the past 2 seasons that Bottas got penalty points. Spain and Baku last year were more races he was involved in incidents, but as I explained in my first post relating to Spain, I really can't see how Bottas can be held as responsible for that given the rules this year. Also in Baku, the stewards decision was that both were equally to blame.









As a lot may be able to tell by now, I do like Bottas and have been following his performance very closely over the past few years. But I didn't follow F1 that much in 2013. But I still think that since 2013, Bottas has never been responsible for his or anyone else’s retirement in qualifying or the race. From the stewards verdict anyway. I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I feel people may have a hard time finding a qualifying session or race where Bottas has actually clearly been to blame over the last 5 years. Even Hamilton has certainly crashed out in qualifying twice over the past couple of years. But I guess that isn't the point of this thread as it was mainly focussed on the race.

Anyhow in terms of the race, I think Bottas does have a very low crash record relative to the topic of this thread. If I'm basing them on the stewards verdicts, then I guess I can't say Hamilton was at fault in Spain 2016. So for the time Bottas has been in F1, I think he's done as well as Hamilton in the past few years. So that is basically only 1 year less than what we are basing Hamilton's crash record on. And I have been including qualifying for Bottas too.

I won't start saying I think Bottas is better than Hamilton (because I don't think that at all). I just think there are a lot of positives about Bottas managing to generally keep out of trouble and keep the car on track as much as possible.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:02 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron, I was talking about Bottas being responsible for a retirement. We can hardly say he made Kimi retire can we? He lost him about 2 or 3 places. We can't say Bottas was the one who triggered the 2 Force Indias to contact each other resulting in some of their body work hitting Kimi. That was what caused Kimi the biggest issues.

You're right, and I clearly wasn't on my best mental game yesterday, since this is far from the only error I made. I had forgotten that Kimi was actually taken out by the Force Indias later in the race.

pokerman wrote:
He crashed out of a race early 2014 when he hit a wall, I can't remember which track, he got blamed by some for crashing Kimi out in Baku and also he got blamed by some for the 3 car collision which saw Kimi and Verstappen retire from the race.
Lotus49 wrote:
Oz he hit the wall in 2014, should have been a podium, he was the quickest guy on track behind Nico. Collision in Russia with Kimi one year as well I think on the last lap, there was a running story for a while of those two coming together. Spain and Baku this year as you mention. He hit Lewis at a start I think in Bahrain or China in 2016 as well iirc.

Indeed, he did hit the wall in Australia and certainly cost himself points, but not a retirement.

The Russia collision I hold to be Kimi's fault, so I wouldn't put that one on Bottas - the Mexico incident later in the same year was cut from similar cloth, and could perhaps have been Bottas' fault.

As for Hamilton driving into his car in Bahrain, it was insane to give him a penalty for that, and it didn't lead to either one retiring anyway.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:28 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron, I was talking about Bottas being responsible for a retirement. We can hardly say he made Kimi retire can we? He lost him about 2 or 3 places. We can't say Bottas was the one who triggered the 2 Force Indias to contact each other resulting in some of their body work hitting Kimi. That was what caused Kimi the biggest issues.

You're right, and I clearly wasn't on my best mental game yesterday, since this is far from the only error I made. I had forgotten that Kimi was actually taken out by the Force Indias later in the race.

pokerman wrote:
He crashed out of a race early 2014 when he hit a wall, I can't remember which track, he got blamed by some for crashing Kimi out in Baku and also he got blamed by some for the 3 car collision which saw Kimi and Verstappen retire from the race.
Lotus49 wrote:
Oz he hit the wall in 2014, should have been a podium, he was the quickest guy on track behind Nico. Collision in Russia with Kimi one year as well I think on the last lap, there was a running story for a while of those two coming together. Spain and Baku this year as you mention. He hit Lewis at a start I think in Bahrain or China in 2016 as well iirc.

Indeed, he did hit the wall in Australia and certainly cost himself points, but not a retirement.

The Russia collision I hold to be Kimi's fault, so I wouldn't put that one on Bottas - the Mexico incident later in the same year was cut from similar cloth, and could perhaps have been Bottas' fault.

As for Hamilton driving into his car in Bahrain, it was insane to give him a penalty for that, and it didn't lead to either one retiring anyway.



I think if you watch this video at 1:08, you may change your mind about Mexico: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKaZN_NJjAo

Bottas did certainly take a risk and suddenly became alongside Kimi. Kimi won't have expected this probably explaining why he didn't react. But he certainly had time to. But he basically takes his normal racing line even though Bottas is almost fully alongside on the inside and had been there for a couple of seconds too. I think it was just a blank moment from Kimi. Either that or it was too defensive that luckily didn't compromise Bottas. I think that will be the reason why they left it as a racing incident. It it had been the other way round, I get the feeling Kimi will have got quite some penalty for that.


Sorry if you were just having a blank moment regarding Baku. I probably went in to to much detail trying to explain my reasons. I forget things on plenty of occasions too!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:33 pm 
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In Spain Bottas was at least partly responsible for his retirement. He wasn't a passenger in someone else's accident. That's why I don't count Brazil 2012 for Hamilton when he was spun into but I would count Spain 2016 and Valencia 2012. I'm setting the bar quite high.

But still Bottas has a very impressive record.

Edit - I forgot, Bottas didn't actually retire from turn 1 in Spain. So a very impressive record.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:47 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
In Spain Bottas was at least partly responsible for his retirement. He wasn't a passenger in someone else's accident. That's why I don't count Brazil 2012 for Hamilton when he was spun into but I would count Spain 2016 and Valencia 2012. I'm setting the bar quite high.

But still Bottas has a very impressive record.

Edit - I forgot, Bottas didn't actually retire from turn 1 in Spain. So a very impressive record.

Indeed, i have to say Bottas was partly responsible in Spain. As you can say him braking early was what created an oppertunity for Verstappen and Kimi to pass. But then then those 2 chose to both go very tight when Bottas was still there. Or actually it may only have been Verstappen who chose to go tight as Kimi had nowhere to go. Verstappen however could have gone wider or backed off. So if I'm honest, I would probably blame Verstappen most and say Kimi was the least to blame. Bottas didn't understeer into them like many suggest, he just braked early and was unfortunate that that triggered what it did to happen next to him. But he certainly could have done something different. But a racing incident was the right decision. And yes, it was just him who didn't retire at this stage. It was just later that his engine blew up when he did.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:52 pm 
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Sorry, should've been more clear but I was just naming contact's he's had that I recall and filling in what GP it was that poker was talking about. I still think he caused the Spain 2017 start crash but we've been over that a few times and if we're only going by the stewards verdict then fair enough. Agree on Russia though.

He crashed in Free Practice in Mexico 2015 and Suzuka 2017 as well if we're looking there but not important for me.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:27 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
In Spain Bottas was at least partly responsible for his retirement. He wasn't a passenger in someone else's accident. That's why I don't count Brazil 2012 for Hamilton when he was spun into but I would count Spain 2016 and Valencia 2012. I'm setting the bar quite high.

But still Bottas has a very impressive record.

Edit - I forgot, Bottas didn't actually retire from turn 1 in Spain. So a very impressive record.

Indeed, i have to say Bottas was partly responsible in Spain. As you can say him braking early was what created an oppertunity for Verstappen and Kimi to pass. But then then those 2 chose to both go very tight when Bottas was still there. Or actually it may only have been Verstappen who chose to go tight as Kimi had nowhere to go. Verstappen however could have gone wider or backed off. So if I'm honest, I would probably blame Verstappen most and say Kimi was the least to blame. Bottas didn't understeer into them like many suggest, he just braked early and was unfortunate that that triggered what it did to happen next to him. But he certainly could have done something different. But a racing incident was the right decision. And yes, it was just him who didn't retire at this stage. It was just later that his engine blew up when he did.


haha, I think the exact opposite but there you are. I would put most blame on Kimi. He didn't give Bottas enough room and did have space to his left Verstappen was leaving him plenty of room.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:30 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Sorry, should've been more clear but I was just naming contact's he's had that I recall and filling in what GP it was that poker was talking about. I still think he caused the Spain 2017 start crash but we've been over that a few times and if we're only going by the stewards verdict then fair enough. Agree on Russia though.

He crashed in Free Practice in Mexico 2015 and Suzuka 2017 as well if we're looking there but not important for me.

Yes, it isn't important, but I'll point out that he didn't retire in practice in Japan this year. He got going and took his car back to the garage. In Mexico 2015, I don't remember him crashing in practice which is rare for me, but I may look into that for the sake of it :lol:

Edit, Just found a review of that qualifying session in Mexico 2015. Bottas crashed, but was able to go back to the pits. So the not so important challenge is still on for a practice session, qualifying or race where Bottas was clearly responsible for retiring himself or someone else! :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:41 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
In Spain Bottas was at least partly responsible for his retirement. He wasn't a passenger in someone else's accident. That's why I don't count Brazil 2012 for Hamilton when he was spun into but I would count Spain 2016 and Valencia 2012. I'm setting the bar quite high.

But still Bottas has a very impressive record.

Edit - I forgot, Bottas didn't actually retire from turn 1 in Spain. So a very impressive record.

Indeed, i have to say Bottas was partly responsible in Spain. As you can say him braking early was what created an oppertunity for Verstappen and Kimi to pass. But then then those 2 chose to both go very tight when Bottas was still there. Or actually it may only have been Verstappen who chose to go tight as Kimi had nowhere to go. Verstappen however could have gone wider or backed off. So if I'm honest, I would probably blame Verstappen most and say Kimi was the least to blame. Bottas didn't understeer into them like many suggest, he just braked early and was unfortunate that that triggered what it did to happen next to him. But he certainly could have done something different. But a racing incident was the right decision. And yes, it was just him who didn't retire at this stage. It was just later that his engine blew up when he did.


haha, I think the exact opposite but there you are. I would put most blame on Kimi. He didn't give Bottas enough room and did have space to his left Verstappen was leaving him plenty of room.


Interesting. I would say Kimi had a fraction more room but hardly enough to avoid Verstappen. But I still know that Verstappen could have definitely gone wider. Karun Chandhok and Eddie Jordan both expressed their views on Channel 4 saying they think Verstappen should have backed off or gone wider. They also said that it was Verstappen taking most risk going in as he should have been able to see that both Kimi and Bottas were already going in and 3 into 1 often can go wrong. But everyone can still have their own view ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:43 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Sorry, should've been more clear but I was just naming contact's he's had that I recall and filling in what GP it was that poker was talking about. I still think he caused the Spain 2017 start crash but we've been over that a few times and if we're only going by the stewards verdict then fair enough. Agree on Russia though.

He crashed in Free Practice in Mexico 2015 and Suzuka 2017 as well if we're looking there but not important for me.

Yes, it isn't important, but I'll point out that he didn't retire in practice in Japan this year. He got going and took his car back to the garage. In Mexico 2015, I don't remember him crashing in practice which is rare for me, but I may look into that for the sake of it :lol:

Edit, Just found a review of that qualifying session in Mexico 2015. Bottas crashed, but was able to go back to the pits. So the not so important challenge is still on for a practice session, qualifying or race where Bottas was clearly responsible for retiring himself or someone else! :lol:


I don't think he could run again in either practice could he?

Getting the car back to the pits is only half the job but we're talking about luck rather than judgement or skill to avoid retiring after binning it so I don't think it changes much tbh.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:12 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Sorry, should've been more clear but I was just naming contact's he's had that I recall and filling in what GP it was that poker was talking about. I still think he caused the Spain 2017 start crash but we've been over that a few times and if we're only going by the stewards verdict then fair enough. Agree on Russia though.

He crashed in Free Practice in Mexico 2015 and Suzuka 2017 as well if we're looking there but not important for me.

Yes, it isn't important, but I'll point out that he didn't retire in practice in Japan this year. He got going and took his car back to the garage. In Mexico 2015, I don't remember him crashing in practice which is rare for me, but I may look into that for the sake of it :lol:

Edit, Just found a review of that qualifying session in Mexico 2015. Bottas crashed, but was able to go back to the pits. So the not so important challenge is still on for a practice session, qualifying or race where Bottas was clearly responsible for retiring himself or someone else! :lol:


I don't think he could run again in either practice could he?

Getting the car back to the pits is only half the job but we're talking about luck rather than judgement or skill to avoid retiring after binning it so I don't think it changes much tbh.

Yes, agree he was lucky and it was a big mistake. I'm only saying it in this thread just because I'm only including retirements where drivers couldn't take their car any further than where they crashed, which I think is what the first post means. But yes, it really doesn't matter that much. And I can see what you mean. It is still a negative as I don't think he did continue in the sessions. But he had done nearly as many laps as the others in Mexico just before he crashed.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:22 am 
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AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He went off the track once avoiding Alonso's car which had brake tested him.


He locked up his brakes and lost control after a bad start where he fell to 4:th place

Because Alonso brake tested him, Kimi also tapped on his brake going around the first corner losing Hamilton momentum and losing a place to Alonso, little tricks of the trade when a driver only needs to finish in 5th place, let's see if we can damage his front wing.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:26 am 
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tootsie323 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton's remit is to try and avoid contact if he can so it's hardly surprising that he has quite a good record in this respect, that and better decision making in the past few years see him make the flag more often than most.
Pardon me for sounding facetious but does any driver go looking for contact? I appreciate that there are some that one may argue put themselves into positions where they are reliant on another driver to avoid it but I'm pretty sure that, on the whole, all drivers try to avoid contact.

Some drivers clearly don't mind doing a bit of rubbing.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:34 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Not that is is that long compared to Hamilton, but has Bottas actually ever been deemed responsible for his or anyone else’s retirement in qualifying or the race? I didn't follow 2013 very well, but from 2014, I don't think Bottas has ever crashed out and not been able to get going again in qualifying or the race. I remember the commentators saying something like this at the end of 2015. I don't even remember him crashing out in practice due to his own errors either and I usually do follow practice. And I think he's the only driver on the grid who is still here now who has managed to avoid causing any retirements. Some may have your arguments in Spain this year. But the fact was it was a racing incident and he was the only one involved not to suffer. They did say that they would be less strict on lap 1 collisions, but they still said that is one driver was predominantly to blame, they would be punished. So I just don't blame Bottas for this. Racing incident.

This is in a way a positive to what many think of Bottas as being overly cautious. It has certainly kept him out of trouble a lot of his career. Other drivers take risks, but look at the amount of incidents they have got involved in. However, Taking risks very often does pay off so I still think Bottas should take more than he does.

I hold Bottas responsible for taking Kimi out in Baku this year, so there's one. However, if you're asking if he's ever received a penalty from the stewards for causing a collision that led to a DNF for the other driver, I don't actually know. Probably not. But Verstappen has never received a penalty for dangerous driving, either...

He crashed out of a race early 2014 when he hit a wall, I can't remember which track, he got blamed by some for crashing Kimi out in Baku and also he got blamed by some for the 3 car collision which saw Kimi and Verstappen retire from the race.


Oz he hit the wall in 2014, should have been a podium, he was the quickest guy on track behind Nico. Collision in Russia with Kimi one year as well I think on the last lap, there was a running story for a while of those two coming together. Spain and Baku this year as you mention. He hit Lewis at a start I think in Bahrain or China in 2016 as well iirc.



Apologies for not knowing how to reply separately to each quote so I will just state the name of who I am replaying to.



Exediron, I was talking about Bottas being responsible for a retirement. We can hardly say he made Kimi retire can we? He lost him about 2 or 3 places. We can't say Bottas was the one who triggered the 2 Force Indias to contact each other resulting in some of their body work hitting Kimi. That was what caused Kimi the biggest issues. If you go as far as saying that he was behind the Force Indias because of what Bottas did then you could say a whole load of other incidents could be avoidable. The rest of Kimi's race that resulted in retirement was pure bad luck and not related to Bottas. Even with the incident, it was deemed to be 50 - 50 blame. They won't have just done that because it was the start. As just because it is the start they wouldn't say you were equally responsible then and not later. This is quoted from F1 Fanatic and is what the stewards verdict was: “The stewards examined video evidence and considered that car seven [Raikkonen] was making a speculative pass on the outside of car 77 [Bottas] in turn two and that car 77 hit the kerb and was pushed wide into car seven,” they noted. “The stewards determined that no driver was wholly or predominately to blame for the collision.” https://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/06/26/ ... no-action/

I at first blamed Bottas most, but after watching many replays and seeing their view, I think they were equally at fault and Bottas was the one who suffered most from the incident itself. But I guess I should respect that everyone can have an opinion. I'm just basing it on what the stewards decided and I don't see how he was responsible for Kimi retiring.
Regarding Verstappen, I don't think he has received a penalty for dangerous driving no, but he has been responsible for his or others retirements several times. I can remember at leased 6 times when he was responsible for a retirement. Monaco and Britain 2015. Then 3 crashes in a single weekend in Monaco the following year (just involving himself). Then knocking Ricciardo out in Hungary last year. It is a bit a harsh including practice but in Baku, he crashed out right at the end of Q3 after the flag I think. Not the smartest thing to do just before qualifying. The main reason why I have been including practice is because I never remember Bottas causing his retirement in this either.



pokerman, I remember the commentators on the BBC mentioning just after Kimi and Bottas came together in Russia 2015 that Bottas had never been deemed responsible for his own or anyone else retirement, even in qualifying over his F1 career. I think they will have remembered if he had crashed out in a race in 2014 which was just the year before at the time. But I remember that race in Australia pretty well. He certainly did ruin it. He went much wider than necessary which he should have got away with if there was no wall but that wasn't the case. So he ended up puncturing his rear right tyre. But it wasn't a retirement. About Baku, I know you are saying that he got blamed by some (maybe not you yourself) for crashing Kimi out, but I think those words are maybe a bit strong. Bottas didn't crash Kimi out, he had contact which knocked him down a few places. The rest could have happened anyway and it wasn't related to Bottas as he was right at the back.




Lotus49, I think a podium may have possibly been reachable but as Bottas lost it so early, It is a bit hard to tell. But he certainly did loose a chance of one. Bottas certainly has been involved with several incidents with Kimi like you say. I think virtually everyone fully blamed Kimi for what happened in Russia 2015. Then they came together again in Mexico and Kimi retired this time with broken suspension. Again, everybody did seem to blame Kimi and it didn't get investigated any further by the stewards. Then it was Bahrain 2016 he was a bit optimistic in the first corner and hit Hamilton. But on F1 Fanatic, many of us thought the penalty Bottas got was one of the most harsh of the season. Even Hamilton said Bottas had no need to apologise afterwards in an interview almost implying that he thought the penalty was a bit much. It was a drive through penalty with 2 penalty points for a first corner incident that resulted in Hamilton spinning and loosing just 5 places. However, he certainly did have a bit of damage which did slightly reduce the cars performance. I actually think that may have been the only time in the past 2 seasons that Bottas got penalty points. Spain and Baku last year were more races he was involved in incidents, but as I explained in my first post relating to Spain, I really can't see how Bottas can be held as responsible for that given the rules this year. Also in Baku, the stewards decision was that both were equally to blame.









As a lot may be able to tell by now, I do like Bottas and have been following his performance very closely over the past few years. But I didn't follow F1 that much in 2013. But I still think that since 2013, Bottas has never been responsible for his or anyone else’s retirement in qualifying or the race. From the stewards verdict anyway. I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I feel people may have a hard time finding a qualifying session or race where Bottas has actually clearly been to blame over the last 5 years. Even Hamilton has certainly crashed out in qualifying twice over the past couple of years. But I guess that isn't the point of this thread as it was mainly focussed on the race.

Anyhow in terms of the race, I think Bottas does have a very low crash record relative to the topic of this thread. If I'm basing them on the stewards verdicts, then I guess I can't say Hamilton was at fault in Spain 2016. So for the time Bottas has been in F1, I think he's done as well as Hamilton in the past few years. So that is basically only 1 year less than what we are basing Hamilton's crash record on. And I have been including qualifying for Bottas too.

I won't start saying I think Bottas is better than Hamilton (because I don't think that at all). I just think there are a lot of positives about Bottas managing to generally keep out of trouble and keep the car on track as much as possible.

You put a lot of work into that. :)

No I thought I should just mention Bottas hitting the wall, that was quite a basic mistake and was a crash of sorts even though he was able to pit for repairs.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:37 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
In Spain Bottas was at least partly responsible for his retirement. He wasn't a passenger in someone else's accident. That's why I don't count Brazil 2012 for Hamilton when he was spun into but I would count Spain 2016 and Valencia 2012. I'm setting the bar quite high.

But still Bottas has a very impressive record.

Edit - I forgot, Bottas didn't actually retire from turn 1 in Spain. So a very impressive record.

Indeed, i have to say Bottas was partly responsible in Spain. As you can say him braking early was what created an oppertunity for Verstappen and Kimi to pass. But then then those 2 chose to both go very tight when Bottas was still there. Or actually it may only have been Verstappen who chose to go tight as Kimi had nowhere to go. Verstappen however could have gone wider or backed off. So if I'm honest, I would probably blame Verstappen most and say Kimi was the least to blame. Bottas didn't understeer into them like many suggest, he just braked early and was unfortunate that that triggered what it did to happen next to him. But he certainly could have done something different. But a racing incident was the right decision. And yes, it was just him who didn't retire at this stage. It was just later that his engine blew up when he did.


haha, I think the exact opposite but there you are. I would put most blame on Kimi. He didn't give Bottas enough room and did have space to his left Verstappen was leaving him plenty of room.


Interesting. I would say Kimi had a fraction more room but hardly enough to avoid Verstappen. But I still know that Verstappen could have definitely gone wider. Karun Chandhok and Eddie Jordan both expressed their views on Channel 4 saying they think Verstappen should have backed off or gone wider. They also said that it was Verstappen taking most risk going in as he should have been able to see that both Kimi and Bottas were already going in and 3 into 1 often can go wrong. But everyone can still have their own view ;)

Nice to see that they had the same view as me. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:19 am 
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pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:


Apologies for not knowing how to reply separately to each quote so I will just state the name of who I am replaying to.



Exediron, I was talking about Bottas being responsible for a retirement. We can hardly say he made Kimi retire can we? He lost him about 2 or 3 places. We can't say Bottas was the one who triggered the 2 Force Indias to contact each other resulting in some of their body work hitting Kimi. That was what caused Kimi the biggest issues. If you go as far as saying that he was behind the Force Indias because of what Bottas did then you could say a whole load of other incidents could be avoidable. The rest of Kimi's race that resulted in retirement was pure bad luck and not related to Bottas. Even with the incident, it was deemed to be 50 - 50 blame. They won't have just done that because it was the start. As just because it is the start they wouldn't say you were equally responsible then and not later. This is quoted from F1 Fanatic and is what the stewards verdict was: “The stewards examined video evidence and considered that car seven [Raikkonen] was making a speculative pass on the outside of car 77 [Bottas] in turn two and that car 77 hit the kerb and was pushed wide into car seven,” they noted. “The stewards determined that no driver was wholly or predominately to blame for the collision.” https://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/06/26/ ... no-action/

I at first blamed Bottas most, but after watching many replays and seeing their view, I think they were equally at fault and Bottas was the one who suffered most from the incident itself. But I guess I should respect that everyone can have an opinion. I'm just basing it on what the stewards decided and I don't see how he was responsible for Kimi retiring.
Regarding Verstappen, I don't think he has received a penalty for dangerous driving no, but he has been responsible for his or others retirements several times. I can remember at leased 6 times when he was responsible for a retirement. Monaco and Britain 2015. Then 3 crashes in a single weekend in Monaco the following year (just involving himself). Then knocking Ricciardo out in Hungary last year. It is a bit a harsh including practice but in Baku, he crashed out right at the end of Q3 after the flag I think. Not the smartest thing to do just before qualifying. The main reason why I have been including practice is because I never remember Bottas causing his retirement in this either.



pokerman, I remember the commentators on the BBC mentioning just after Kimi and Bottas came together in Russia 2015 that Bottas had never been deemed responsible for his own or anyone else retirement, even in qualifying over his F1 career. I think they will have remembered if he had crashed out in a race in 2014 which was just the year before at the time. But I remember that race in Australia pretty well. He certainly did ruin it. He went much wider than necessary which he should have got away with if there was no wall but that wasn't the case. So he ended up puncturing his rear right tyre. But it wasn't a retirement. About Baku, I know you are saying that he got blamed by some (maybe not you yourself) for crashing Kimi out, but I think those words are maybe a bit strong. Bottas didn't crash Kimi out, he had contact which knocked him down a few places. The rest could have happened anyway and it wasn't related to Bottas as he was right at the back.




Lotus49, I think a podium may have possibly been reachable but as Bottas lost it so early, It is a bit hard to tell. But he certainly did loose a chance of one. Bottas certainly has been involved with several incidents with Kimi like you say. I think virtually everyone fully blamed Kimi for what happened in Russia 2015. Then they came together again in Mexico and Kimi retired this time with broken suspension. Again, everybody did seem to blame Kimi and it didn't get investigated any further by the stewards. Then it was Bahrain 2016 he was a bit optimistic in the first corner and hit Hamilton. But on F1 Fanatic, many of us thought the penalty Bottas got was one of the most harsh of the season. Even Hamilton said Bottas had no need to apologise afterwards in an interview almost implying that he thought the penalty was a bit much. It was a drive through penalty with 2 penalty points for a first corner incident that resulted in Hamilton spinning and loosing just 5 places. However, he certainly did have a bit of damage which did slightly reduce the cars performance. I actually think that may have been the only time in the past 2 seasons that Bottas got penalty points. Spain and Baku last year were more races he was involved in incidents, but as I explained in my first post relating to Spain, I really can't see how Bottas can be held as responsible for that given the rules this year. Also in Baku, the stewards decision was that both were equally to blame.









As a lot may be able to tell by now, I do like Bottas and have been following his performance very closely over the past few years. But I didn't follow F1 that much in 2013. But I still think that since 2013, Bottas has never been responsible for his or anyone else’s retirement in qualifying or the race. From the stewards verdict anyway. I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I feel people may have a hard time finding a qualifying session or race where Bottas has actually clearly been to blame over the last 5 years. Even Hamilton has certainly crashed out in qualifying twice over the past couple of years. But I guess that isn't the point of this thread as it was mainly focussed on the race.

Anyhow in terms of the race, I think Bottas does have a very low crash record relative to the topic of this thread. If I'm basing them on the stewards verdicts, then I guess I can't say Hamilton was at fault in Spain 2016. So for the time Bottas has been in F1, I think he's done as well as Hamilton in the past few years. So that is basically only 1 year less than what we are basing Hamilton's crash record on. And I have been including qualifying for Bottas too.

I won't start saying I think Bottas is better than Hamilton (because I don't think that at all). I just think there are a lot of positives about Bottas managing to generally keep out of trouble and keep the car on track as much as possible.

You put a lot of work into that. :)

No I thought I should just mention Bottas hitting the wall, that was quite a basic mistake and was a crash of sorts even though he was able to pit for repairs.


Yes, it did take me some time. But most people often do tent to remember a lot more about drivers they like. It was this thread that reminded me that I don't think Bottas has every crashed out resulting in retirement in the race or qualifying and possibly even practice. I know as Lotus49 pointed out, it is a bit pointless when Bottas in a few practice sessions has crashed and managed to recover to the pits when he hasn't been able to do any more running due to the damage. But it often indicated that if the car is drivable, not as much damage has been done. I never remember Bottas having to get out of his car anywhere other than the pits due to a mistake of his own.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:33 am 
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pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
In Spain Bottas was at least partly responsible for his retirement. He wasn't a passenger in someone else's accident. That's why I don't count Brazil 2012 for Hamilton when he was spun into but I would count Spain 2016 and Valencia 2012. I'm setting the bar quite high.

But still Bottas has a very impressive record.

Edit - I forgot, Bottas didn't actually retire from turn 1 in Spain. So a very impressive record.

Indeed, i have to say Bottas was partly responsible in Spain. As you can say him braking early was what created an oppertunity for Verstappen and Kimi to pass. But then then those 2 chose to both go very tight when Bottas was still there. Or actually it may only have been Verstappen who chose to go tight as Kimi had nowhere to go. Verstappen however could have gone wider or backed off. So if I'm honest, I would probably blame Verstappen most and say Kimi was the least to blame. Bottas didn't understeer into them like many suggest, he just braked early and was unfortunate that that triggered what it did to happen next to him. But he certainly could have done something different. But a racing incident was the right decision. And yes, it was just him who didn't retire at this stage. It was just later that his engine blew up when he did.


haha, I think the exact opposite but there you are. I would put most blame on Kimi. He didn't give Bottas enough room and did have space to his left Verstappen was leaving him plenty of room.


Interesting. I would say Kimi had a fraction more room but hardly enough to avoid Verstappen. But I still know that Verstappen could have definitely gone wider. Karun Chandhok and Eddie Jordan both expressed their views on Channel 4 saying they think Verstappen should have backed off or gone wider. They also said that it was Verstappen taking most risk going in as he should have been able to see that both Kimi and Bottas were already going in and 3 into 1 often can go wrong. But everyone can still have their own view ;)

Nice to see that they had the same view as me. :)


I think we do have slightly similar views on Verstappen. I do think the good starts he has are full of risks. Several have been incredibly close to going wrong. I remember you commenting on Canada and I think the same. I wouldn't fully blame him, but he did choose to overtake Vettel in an awkward place and they did contact. I blame him most for Spain although a racing incident is what it should have been. Even in Singapore, I think he could have been a little smarter with the 2nd contact. Althogh he did already probably have damage. Surely he could see in his mirrors that Kimi had totally lost it and would very likely hit him. I noticed that Bottas and Ricciardo backed off to be cautious and look at the result that gave them. I don't blame Verstappen for the first contact at all and that could well have ended his race anyway. But I guess I don't know how badly his car was damaged so I probably shouldn't blame him for either. I even think Verstappen was incredibly lucky at the start of Mexico. He contacted Hamilton's front wing with his left rear trye by pulling in front just before he was fully past. People said this was an amazing overtake but it looked a little clumsy to me. Mercedes replaced Hamilton's front wing due to this as Vettel didn't touch it. It is incredibly lucky that his tyre didn't blow. People won't have called it a smart move then and that could very likely have happened. But his race from there was flawless. Although I actually think Red bull did have an advantage over Red Bull that day. I don't think they would beat a Mercedes by 20 seconds if that wasn't the case. Bottas hasn't been poor here in the past.

I don't want to sound like I dislike Verstappen. But if he keeps taking as many risks as he does, it is very likely he will get himself in to trouble pretty often next year. He's been lucky to get away with some of his moves without damage to his own car. Then again, he pushed to the limit of the rules in his career and often gets the best possible result so it is a good thing too in a way. I just think there are positives to Bottas's cautious approach as if there are a load of clashes up ahead in the first corner, being cautious and lifting off can sometimes bring home much better results if you push hard later.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:28 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Indeed, i have to say Bottas was partly responsible in Spain. As you can say him braking early was what created an oppertunity for Verstappen and Kimi to pass. But then then those 2 chose to both go very tight when Bottas was still there. Or actually it may only have been Verstappen who chose to go tight as Kimi had nowhere to go. Verstappen however could have gone wider or backed off. So if I'm honest, I would probably blame Verstappen most and say Kimi was the least to blame. Bottas didn't understeer into them like many suggest, he just braked early and was unfortunate that that triggered what it did to happen next to him. But he certainly could have done something different. But a racing incident was the right decision. And yes, it was just him who didn't retire at this stage. It was just later that his engine blew up when he did.


haha, I think the exact opposite but there you are. I would put most blame on Kimi. He didn't give Bottas enough room and did have space to his left Verstappen was leaving him plenty of room.


Interesting. I would say Kimi had a fraction more room but hardly enough to avoid Verstappen. But I still know that Verstappen could have definitely gone wider. Karun Chandhok and Eddie Jordan both expressed their views on Channel 4 saying they think Verstappen should have backed off or gone wider. They also said that it was Verstappen taking most risk going in as he should have been able to see that both Kimi and Bottas were already going in and 3 into 1 often can go wrong. But everyone can still have their own view ;)

Nice to see that they had the same view as me. :)


I think we do have slightly similar views on Verstappen. I do think the good starts he has are full of risks. Several have been incredibly close to going wrong. I remember you commenting on Canada and I think the same. I wouldn't fully blame him, but he did choose to overtake Vettel in an awkward place and they did contact. I blame him most for Spain although a racing incident is what it should have been. Even in Singapore, I think he could have been a little smarter with the 2nd contact. Althogh he did already probably have damage. Surely he could see in his mirrors that Kimi had totally lost it and would very likely hit him. I noticed that Bottas and Ricciardo backed off to be cautious and look at the result that gave them. I don't blame Verstappen for the first contact at all and that could well have ended his race anyway. But I guess I don't know how badly his car was damaged so I probably shouldn't blame him for either. I even think Verstappen was incredibly lucky at the start of Mexico. He contacted Hamilton's front wing with his left rear trye by pulling in front just before he was fully past. People said this was an amazing overtake but it looked a little clumsy to me. Mercedes replaced Hamilton's front wing due to this as Vettel didn't touch it. It is incredibly lucky that his tyre didn't blow. People won't have called it a smart move then and that could very likely have happened. But his race from there was flawless. Although I actually think Red bull did have an advantage over Red Bull that day. I don't think they would beat a Mercedes by 20 seconds if that wasn't the case. Bottas hasn't been poor here in the past.

I don't want to sound like I dislike Verstappen. But if he keeps taking as many risks as he does, it is very likely he will get himself in to trouble pretty often next year. He's been lucky to get away with some of his moves without damage to his own car. Then again, he pushed to the limit of the rules in his career and often gets the best possible result so it is a good thing too in a way. I just think there are positives to Bottas's cautious approach as if there are a load of clashes up ahead in the first corner, being cautious and lifting off can sometimes bring home much better results if you push hard later.

Yes some of his great moves do seem to include bouncing off other cars and if his race gets ruined through damage some will say it's just bad luck.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:15 pm 
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When the damage sustained is not his fault then yes. Obviously.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:52 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
When the damage sustained is not his fault then yes. Obviously.

I think our point is that although it isn't really his fault, he is the one who puts himself in this situation by attempting an overtake. Lots of these are what have lead to problems for Verstappen.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:08 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
When the damage sustained is not his fault then yes. Obviously.

I think our point is that although it isn't really his fault, he is the one who puts himself in this situation by attempting an overtake. Lots of these are what have lead to problems for Verstappen.


Not really lots. We are looking at two times and you have to view it really harshly even to go that far. I think when you are not fighting for the championship trying to take a risk is the right thing to do anyway TBH.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:20 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
When the damage sustained is not his fault then yes. Obviously.

I think our point is that although it isn't really his fault, he is the one who puts himself in this situation by attempting an overtake. Lots of these are what have lead to problems for Verstappen.


I can think of only two I thought were over ambitious, Massa in Monza and Dan in Hungary. I can't think of many more in his career and I don't think they (his other moves) carried any more risk than what Bottas attempted in Mexico with Kimi for example.

And Max still wasn't trying to go 3 wide in Spain, he was trying to go 2 wide but the guy in front and on the inside of the car Max was trying to pass braked earlier than everyone else and made it an awkward three-way instead. No way Max should be expected to think someone backs out that much at T1, the video is borderline comical how early Bottas puts the anchor down...


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:58 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
When the damage sustained is not his fault then yes. Obviously.

I think our point is that although it isn't really his fault, he is the one who puts himself in this situation by attempting an overtake. Lots of these are what have lead to problems for Verstappen.


Not really lots. We are looking at two times and you have to view it really harshly even to go that far. I think when you are not fighting for the championship trying to take a risk is the right thing to do anyway TBH.

Yes, I'm going a bit too far there saying there is lots. Fair enough


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:00 am 
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pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He went off the track once avoiding Alonso's car which had brake tested him.


He locked up his brakes and lost control after a bad start where he fell to 4:th place

Because Alonso brake tested him, Kimi also tapped on his brake going around the first corner losing Hamilton momentum and losing a place to Alonso, little tricks of the trade when a driver only needs to finish in 5th place, let's see if we can damage his front wing.

Pokerman, honest question... So if you're vehement that Alonso brake-checked him then how can you say that Hamilton did not brake-check Vettel in Baku when the on-board telemetry clearly shows Hamilton tap his brake coming out of the turn in the acceleration zone when Vettel was right on his gearbox?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:05 am 
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Gumption wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He went off the track once avoiding Alonso's car which had brake tested him.


He locked up his brakes and lost control after a bad start where he fell to 4:th place

Because Alonso brake tested him, Kimi also tapped on his brake going around the first corner losing Hamilton momentum and losing a place to Alonso, little tricks of the trade when a driver only needs to finish in 5th place, let's see if we can damage his front wing.

Pokerman, honest question... So if you're vehement that Alonso brake-checked him then how can you say that Hamilton did not brake-check Vettel in Baku when the on-board telemetry clearly shows Hamilton tap his brake coming out of the turn in the acceleration zone when Vettel was right on his gearbox?


Tbf i don't think for one minute Alonso did brake test Hamilton but the situations are totally different. In Baku Hamilton was in behind the safety car needing to drop back before the restart. Hardly usual driving conditions.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:15 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Gumption wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He went off the track once avoiding Alonso's car which had brake tested him.


He locked up his brakes and lost control after a bad start where he fell to 4:th place

Because Alonso brake tested him, Kimi also tapped on his brake going around the first corner losing Hamilton momentum and losing a place to Alonso, little tricks of the trade when a driver only needs to finish in 5th place, let's see if we can damage his front wing.

Pokerman, honest question... So if you're vehement that Alonso brake-checked him then how can you say that Hamilton did not brake-check Vettel in Baku when the on-board telemetry clearly shows Hamilton tap his brake coming out of the turn in the acceleration zone when Vettel was right on his gearbox?


Tbf i don't think for one minute Alonso did brake test Hamilton but the situations are totally different. In Baku Hamilton was in behind the safety car needing to drop back before the restart. Hardly usual driving conditions.

I agree. I don't think Alonso did either. He brought up brake-checking and tricks of the trade so I'm curious his take on it given that's exactly what I thought Hamilton did in Baku given there was no gap between Hamilton and Vettel so tapping the brake shouldn't have been an option.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:17 am 
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Tbf that's not Hamilton's responsibility. He is allowed to brake and Vettel knew that. Even Vettel doesn't think he was brake tested. Straight after the race he even said he was sure Hamilton didn't do it on purpose. If not done on purpose it can't be a brake test. That requires intent.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:20 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Tbf that's not Hamilton's responsibility. He is allowed to brake and Vettel knew that. Even Vettel doesn't think he was brake tested. Straight after the race he even said he was sure Hamilton didn't do it on purpose. If not done on purpose it can't be a brake test. That requires intent.

I don't think what a driver says immediately after the race may necessarily be taken as evidence of anything. He may simply have been wanting to avoid a war of words. Or he could have been telling the truth. Point is we can't know for sure


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:29 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Tbf that's not Hamilton's responsibility. He is allowed to brake and Vettel knew that. Even Vettel doesn't think he was brake tested. Straight after the race he even said he was sure Hamilton didn't do it on purpose. If not done on purpose it can't be a brake test. That requires intent.

If there's no room behind you to brake (especially when you're coming out of a slow turn behind a safety car already going much slower than safety car speed with literally nothing in front of you for a kilometer) then you don't have the right to brake. If you want to slow down more, move over. Vettel had no obligation given their speed to have any gap. The braking on Hamilton's part was sudden and unexpected.

If anything, at a minimum the stewards/FIA screwed up by not clarifying what is and isn't brake-checking. Tapping your brake unnecessarily when a car is directly behind you at a very slow speed could definitely fall into that category.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:01 am 
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Gumption wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tbf that's not Hamilton's responsibility. He is allowed to brake and Vettel knew that. Even Vettel doesn't think he was brake tested. Straight after the race he even said he was sure Hamilton didn't do it on purpose. If not done on purpose it can't be a brake test. That requires intent.

If there's no room behind you to brake (especially when you're coming out of a slow turn behind a safety car already going much slower than safety car speed with literally nothing in front of you for a kilometer) then you don't have the right to brake. If you want to slow down more, move over. Vettel had no obligation given their speed to have any gap. The braking on Hamilton's part was sudden and unexpected.

If anything, at a minimum the stewards/FIA screwed up by not clarifying what is and isn't brake-checking. Tapping your brake unnecessarily when a car is directly behind you at a very slow speed could definitely fall into that category.


The safety car was a kilometer ahead? You may want to check that... Hamilton had to slow to leave room. He nearly passed it on the lap before. Vettel running right on Hamilton's gearbox is not Hamilton's choice. It's Vettel's.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:40 am 
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Gumption wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tbf that's not Hamilton's responsibility. He is allowed to brake and Vettel knew that. Even Vettel doesn't think he was brake tested. Straight after the race he even said he was sure Hamilton didn't do it on purpose. If not done on purpose it can't be a brake test. That requires intent.

If there's no room behind you to brake (especially when you're coming out of a slow turn behind a safety car already going much slower than safety car speed with literally nothing in front of you for a kilometer) then you don't have the right to brake. If you want to slow down more, move over. Vettel had no obligation given their speed to have any gap. The braking on Hamilton's part was sudden and unexpected.

If anything, at a minimum the stewards/FIA screwed up by not clarifying what is and isn't brake-checking. Tapping your brake unnecessarily when a car is directly behind you at a very slow speed could definitely fall into that category.


I don't know why I'm allowing myself to even be drawn in to this stuff again, but Hamilton's slowing down was not sudden and it shouldn't have been unexpected. Given everyone else behind Vettel also had to 'suddenly stop', and managed to to do without running in to anyone, I'd say this shouldn't be unexpected.

The brake is even a red herring. Cars can touch the brake and not change speed through throttle control, cars can not touch the brake and slow down rapidly due to the mass of aero on the cars. Hamilton did slow, not particularly hugely in F1 terms, at a point where everyone and their dog knew he was going to start playing the game to get the jump (as every driver does). Vettel didn't want Hamilton to get the jump, got too close and got caught out. That's it. Barely even worth a conversation, if it hadn't been for his reaction afterwards.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:33 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
Gumption wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tbf that's not Hamilton's responsibility. He is allowed to brake and Vettel knew that. Even Vettel doesn't think he was brake tested. Straight after the race he even said he was sure Hamilton didn't do it on purpose. If not done on purpose it can't be a brake test. That requires intent.

If there's no room behind you to brake (especially when you're coming out of a slow turn behind a safety car already going much slower than safety car speed with literally nothing in front of you for a kilometer) then you don't have the right to brake. If you want to slow down more, move over. Vettel had no obligation given their speed to have any gap. The braking on Hamilton's part was sudden and unexpected.

If anything, at a minimum the stewards/FIA screwed up by not clarifying what is and isn't brake-checking. Tapping your brake unnecessarily when a car is directly behind you at a very slow speed could definitely fall into that category.


I don't know why I'm allowing myself to even be drawn in to this stuff again, but Hamilton's slowing down was not sudden and it shouldn't have been unexpected. Given everyone else behind Vettel also had to 'suddenly stop', and managed to to do without running in to anyone, I'd say this shouldn't be unexpected.

The brake is even a red herring. Cars can touch the brake and not change speed through throttle control, cars can not touch the brake and slow down rapidly due to the mass of aero on the cars. Hamilton did slow, not particularly hugely in F1 terms, at a point where everyone and their dog knew he was going to start playing the game to get the jump (as every driver does). Vettel didn't want Hamilton to get the jump, got too close and got caught out. That's it. Barely even worth a conversation, if it hadn't been for his reaction afterwards.

Don't agree it shouldn't have been unexpected. I think it's reasonable for the following driver to stay as tight as possible to the car in front, particularly in a restart situation. Vettel got caught out, it happens, but OTOH he wouldn't be doing his job right if he gave the car in front too much room.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:39 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Gumption wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tbf that's not Hamilton's responsibility. He is allowed to brake and Vettel knew that. Even Vettel doesn't think he was brake tested. Straight after the race he even said he was sure Hamilton didn't do it on purpose. If not done on purpose it can't be a brake test. That requires intent.

If there's no room behind you to brake (especially when you're coming out of a slow turn behind a safety car already going much slower than safety car speed with literally nothing in front of you for a kilometer) then you don't have the right to brake. If you want to slow down more, move over. Vettel had no obligation given their speed to have any gap. The braking on Hamilton's part was sudden and unexpected.

If anything, at a minimum the stewards/FIA screwed up by not clarifying what is and isn't brake-checking. Tapping your brake unnecessarily when a car is directly behind you at a very slow speed could definitely fall into that category.


I don't know why I'm allowing myself to even be drawn in to this stuff again, but Hamilton's slowing down was not sudden and it shouldn't have been unexpected. Given everyone else behind Vettel also had to 'suddenly stop', and managed to to do without running in to anyone, I'd say this shouldn't be unexpected.

The brake is even a red herring. Cars can touch the brake and not change speed through throttle control, cars can not touch the brake and slow down rapidly due to the mass of aero on the cars. Hamilton did slow, not particularly hugely in F1 terms, at a point where everyone and their dog knew he was going to start playing the game to get the jump (as every driver does). Vettel didn't want Hamilton to get the jump, got too close and got caught out. That's it. Barely even worth a conversation, if it hadn't been for his reaction afterwards.

Don't agree it shouldn't have been unexpected. I think it's reasonable for the following driver to stay as tight as possible to the car in front, particularly in a restart situation. Vettel got caught out, it happens, but OTOH he wouldn't be doing his job right if he gave the car in front too much room.


I agree, the whole thing was unfortunate. I disagree with the premise that under a safety car anyone's driving should be modified due to the behaviour of the car behind. Whether you're 2nd or 20th it's your responsibility to avoid the car in front.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:56 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Gumption wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tbf that's not Hamilton's responsibility. He is allowed to brake and Vettel knew that. Even Vettel doesn't think he was brake tested. Straight after the race he even said he was sure Hamilton didn't do it on purpose. If not done on purpose it can't be a brake test. That requires intent.

If there's no room behind you to brake (especially when you're coming out of a slow turn behind a safety car already going much slower than safety car speed with literally nothing in front of you for a kilometer) then you don't have the right to brake. If you want to slow down more, move over. Vettel had no obligation given their speed to have any gap. The braking on Hamilton's part was sudden and unexpected.

If anything, at a minimum the stewards/FIA screwed up by not clarifying what is and isn't brake-checking. Tapping your brake unnecessarily when a car is directly behind you at a very slow speed could definitely fall into that category.


I don't know why I'm allowing myself to even be drawn in to this stuff again, but Hamilton's slowing down was not sudden and it shouldn't have been unexpected. Given everyone else behind Vettel also had to 'suddenly stop', and managed to to do without running in to anyone, I'd say this shouldn't be unexpected.

The brake is even a red herring. Cars can touch the brake and not change speed through throttle control, cars can not touch the brake and slow down rapidly due to the mass of aero on the cars. Hamilton did slow, not particularly hugely in F1 terms, at a point where everyone and their dog knew he was going to start playing the game to get the jump (as every driver does). Vettel didn't want Hamilton to get the jump, got too close and got caught out. That's it. Barely even worth a conversation, if it hadn't been for his reaction afterwards.

Don't agree it shouldn't have been unexpected. I think it's reasonable for the following driver to stay as tight as possible to the car in front, particularly in a restart situation. Vettel got caught out, it happens, but OTOH he wouldn't be doing his job right if he gave the car in front too much room.


It's reasonable to stay as close as possible, but if you drive in to the car in front of you then you're no longer as close as possible - you've crossed that line.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Gumption wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tbf that's not Hamilton's responsibility. He is allowed to brake and Vettel knew that. Even Vettel doesn't think he was brake tested. Straight after the race he even said he was sure Hamilton didn't do it on purpose. If not done on purpose it can't be a brake test. That requires intent.

If there's no room behind you to brake (especially when you're coming out of a slow turn behind a safety car already going much slower than safety car speed with literally nothing in front of you for a kilometer) then you don't have the right to brake. If you want to slow down more, move over. Vettel had no obligation given their speed to have any gap. The braking on Hamilton's part was sudden and unexpected.

If anything, at a minimum the stewards/FIA screwed up by not clarifying what is and isn't brake-checking. Tapping your brake unnecessarily when a car is directly behind you at a very slow speed could definitely fall into that category.


I don't know why I'm allowing myself to even be drawn in to this stuff again, but Hamilton's slowing down was not sudden and it shouldn't have been unexpected. Given everyone else behind Vettel also had to 'suddenly stop', and managed to to do without running in to anyone, I'd say this shouldn't be unexpected.

The brake is even a red herring. Cars can touch the brake and not change speed through throttle control, cars can not touch the brake and slow down rapidly due to the mass of aero on the cars. Hamilton did slow, not particularly hugely in F1 terms, at a point where everyone and their dog knew he was going to start playing the game to get the jump (as every driver does). Vettel didn't want Hamilton to get the jump, got too close and got caught out. That's it. Barely even worth a conversation, if it hadn't been for his reaction afterwards.

Don't agree it shouldn't have been unexpected. I think it's reasonable for the following driver to stay as tight as possible to the car in front, particularly in a restart situation. Vettel got caught out, it happens, but OTOH he wouldn't be doing his job right if he gave the car in front too much room.


It's reasonable to stay as close as possible, but if you drive in to the car in front of you then you're no longer as close as possible - you've crossed that line.

well, we're back to whether it should have been expected, really. It's perfectly common for racing cars to follow each other through corners at a distance which would have the police being called on normal roads, sometimes to the extent that it can be hard to tell where one car ends and the other begins, precisely because drivers would not reasonably expect the car in front to slow down, except in very specific places. There are no hazards for them to anticipate. This inevitably means that if the car in front does something contrary to the norm, then the following car will be caught out and often won't have much time to react.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:04 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Gumption wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tbf that's not Hamilton's responsibility. He is allowed to brake and Vettel knew that. Even Vettel doesn't think he was brake tested. Straight after the race he even said he was sure Hamilton didn't do it on purpose. If not done on purpose it can't be a brake test. That requires intent.

If there's no room behind you to brake (especially when you're coming out of a slow turn behind a safety car already going much slower than safety car speed with literally nothing in front of you for a kilometer) then you don't have the right to brake. If you want to slow down more, move over. Vettel had no obligation given their speed to have any gap. The braking on Hamilton's part was sudden and unexpected.

If anything, at a minimum the stewards/FIA screwed up by not clarifying what is and isn't brake-checking. Tapping your brake unnecessarily when a car is directly behind you at a very slow speed could definitely fall into that category.


I don't know why I'm allowing myself to even be drawn in to this stuff again, but Hamilton's slowing down was not sudden and it shouldn't have been unexpected. Given everyone else behind Vettel also had to 'suddenly stop', and managed to to do without running in to anyone, I'd say this shouldn't be unexpected.

The brake is even a red herring. Cars can touch the brake and not change speed through throttle control, cars can not touch the brake and slow down rapidly due to the mass of aero on the cars. Hamilton did slow, not particularly hugely in F1 terms, at a point where everyone and their dog knew he was going to start playing the game to get the jump (as every driver does). Vettel didn't want Hamilton to get the jump, got too close and got caught out. That's it. Barely even worth a conversation, if it hadn't been for his reaction afterwards.

Don't agree it shouldn't have been unexpected. I think it's reasonable for the following driver to stay as tight as possible to the car in front, particularly in a restart situation. Vettel got caught out, it happens, but OTOH he wouldn't be doing his job right if he gave the car in front too much room.


I agree, the whole thing was unfortunate. I disagree with the premise that under a safety car anyone's driving should be modified due to the behaviour of the car behind. Whether you're 2nd or 20th it's your responsibility to avoid the car in front.

I agree up to a point. I don't think the car in front has licence to do whatever they want, which I know not everyone agrees with. Racing drivers may reasonably expect other drivers to behave in a predictable manner IMO, which includes braking before a corner and accelerating immediately after.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:08 pm 
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And I agree with that to a point. But I don't think Hamilton's actions where unreasonable in the conditions. I don't really think Vettel was doing anything unreasonable either up until the obvious.

Anyway the main point I was making is that wherever you sit on either incident thinking Vettel was not brake tested by Hamilton does to preclude you from thinking Hamilton was brake tested by Alonso in 07. The situations surrounding the incidents are too different.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:19 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
And I agree with that to a point. But I don't think Hamilton's actions where unreasonable in the conditions. I don't really think Vettel was doing anything unreasonable either up until the obvious.

Anyway the main point I was making is that wherever you sit on either incident thinking Vettel was not brake tested by Hamilton does to preclude you from thinking Hamilton was brake tested by Alonso in 07. The situations surrounding the incidents are too different.

Fully agree with that. Every situation needs to be assessed on its own merits


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:42 pm 
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Zoue wrote:

well, we're back to whether it should have been expected, really. It's perfectly common for racing cars to follow each other through corners at a distance which would have the police being called on normal roads, sometimes to the extent that it can be hard to tell where one car ends and the other begins, precisely because drivers would not reasonably expect the car in front to slow down, except in very specific places. There are no hazards for them to anticipate. This inevitably means that if the car in front does something contrary to the norm, then the following car will be caught out and often won't have much time to react.


Yes, and I don't think the leading car slowing on the safety car in lap is in any way something which isn't the norm, or something which highly experienced racing drivers shouldn't anticipate. To top it, Vettel knew that was exactly where he could get a jump on Hamilton, so I'd have expected him to know that's exactly where Hamilton would look to get a jump on him.


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