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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:45 am 
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Was this in place for 2017?

I thought it was for every red flag situation but it wasn't used (or mentioned?) in Baku

I'm going to assume it was in place last year, seeing as it was so heavily publicised before the season

I have an inkling it is only for wet restarts and for the initial start after following the safety car for a while. Neither of which we had in 2017 (i think)

I would like to see it for every red flag restart as (to me) it seems to be point of the rule - to add excitement


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:53 pm 
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So after all last week with the rule being standing starts after safety cars, it now appears they are for red flags only

Apparently it took the intervention of Charlie Whiting to change this


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:04 pm 
Standing starts after a SC would be a disaster. I really hope they never implement it.

It is also open to race fixing. Imagine a championship deciding race. Hamilton leads Vettel in the final round, Vettel needs to win the race. Kimi puts it in the barrier with 10 laps to, SC. The grid re-forms, Vettel beats Hamilton to T1 and wins the race and title.

You could also potentially see a driver dominant an entire weekend, a late SC comes out and he gets jumped. Who wants to see that? That is not racing.

After a red flag I accept, because that happens maybe once every 2 seasons and a red flag can't be brought out intentionally. SC's happen about 15-20 times per season.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:27 pm 
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Personally I would do away with the safety car entirely. It's not needed.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:01 pm 
Good point Mike, you are right, we are now at a point where its not needed but I think its become a part of the racing and show now.

SC's have saved many boring races and whilst its not pure racing and we have the technology now to preserve the gaps as they were - I think the average fan would prefer the SC to remain. Some variables and randomness are acceptable in racing. We have the technology to form the cars up in a train (without a SC) behind the leader and then release them so the gaps are preserved to what they where before the "SC" was deployed.

Would fans want this? We wouldn't get races like Baku 2017 anymore and most fans love a race like that once in a while. We also wouldn't have got the moment of excitement in Spa last year when Vettel nearly got Hamilton in Spa or the close duel and overtake for the lead in Spain between Hamilton and Vettel. Vettel likely would have won that race without the VSC allowing Lewis to gain 8 seconds on Seb.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:54 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Personally I would do away with the safety car entirely. It's not needed.

Just make do with the VSC?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:38 pm 
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A standing start should only ever begin a Grand Prix, in my opinion. It has no place after safety cars or red flags; those events are enforced breaks in the racing, not leading to the start of a second race. Things should be returned to (as close as practical) the state they were in before the break in racing occurred.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:44 am 
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jiminwatford wrote:
So after all last week with the rule being standing starts after safety cars, it now appears they are for red flags only

Apparently it took the intervention of Charlie Whiting to change this

Where was it reported that they wouldn't be after safety cars? Wasn't this tested in Barcelona the other week? Can't find any reports contrary to this. Won't weigh in on whether it's a good idea or not but would like to know what to expect with the first race in 3 days


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:54 am 
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Exediron wrote:
A standing start should only ever begin a Grand Prix, in my opinion. It has no place after safety cars or red flags; those events are enforced breaks in the racing, not leading to the start of a second race. Things should be returned to (as close as practical) the state they were in before the break in racing occurred.

I couldn't agree more, who wants too see a 5 lap race?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:13 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Personally I would do away with the safety car entirely. It's not needed.

Just make do with the VSC?


Yes. If the track is blocked then red flag otherwise the VSC should sufficient.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:23 am 
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WHoff78 wrote:
jiminwatford wrote:
So after all last week with the rule being standing starts after safety cars, it now appears they are for red flags only

Apparently it took the intervention of Charlie Whiting to change this

Where was it reported that they wouldn't be after safety cars? Wasn't this tested in Barcelona the other week? Can't find any reports contrary to this. Won't weigh in on whether it's a good idea or not but would like to know what to expect with the first race in 3 days


I don't have an official source. It was mentioned in last night's Midweek Live on The F1 Word https://youtu.be/OB1JF2PX92w?t=2927 Listening to that again it doesn't suggest Charlie Whiting himself made the change rather than he was the one who announced it

I'm going to keep watching the coverage for confirmation


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:40 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Personally I would do away with the safety car entirely. It's not needed.

Just make do with the VSC?


Yes. If the track is blocked then red flag otherwise the VSC should sufficient.

For some incidents yes. But others no. What if there is large debris on track? The safest way for a marshal to clear it is to bunch the pack up together giving the marshals a clear window. Under VSC conditions the cars are still travelling bloody quickly, could still do damage to a marshal in an accident and dont give them a sensible "car free window" to work in.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:34 am 
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lamo wrote:
Standing starts after a SC would be a disaster. I really hope they never implement it.

It is also open to race fixing. Imagine a championship deciding race. Hamilton leads Vettel in the final round, Vettel needs to win the race. Kimi puts it in the barrier with 10 laps to, SC. The grid re-forms, Vettel beats Hamilton to T1 and wins the race and title.

You could also potentially see a driver dominant an entire weekend, a late SC comes out and he gets jumped. Who wants to see that? That is not racing.

After a red flag I accept, because that happens maybe once every 2 seasons and a red flag can't be brought out intentionally. SC's happen about 15-20 times per season.


In theory that could happen in a race re-start as well though, so how more open to race fixing is it? It is always an inherent risk on a restart that one car can overtake another as the grid bunches up


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:07 am 
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angrypirate wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Personally I would do away with the safety car entirely. It's not needed.

Just make do with the VSC?


Yes. If the track is blocked then red flag otherwise the VSC should sufficient.

For some incidents yes. But others no. What if there is large debris on track? The safest way for a marshal to clear it is to bunch the pack up together giving the marshals a clear window. Under VSC conditions the cars are still travelling bloody quickly, could still do damage to a marshal in an accident and dont give them a sensible "car free window" to work in.


So reduce the VSC speeds further in the required zones.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:41 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
A standing start should only ever begin a Grand Prix, in my opinion. It has no place after safety cars or red flags; those events are enforced breaks in the racing, not leading to the start of a second race. Things should be returned to (as close as practical) the state they were in before the break in racing occurred.


100% in agreement


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:42 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Standing starts after a SC would be a disaster. I really hope they never implement it.

It is also open to race fixing. Imagine a championship deciding race. Hamilton leads Vettel in the final round, Vettel needs to win the race. Kimi puts it in the barrier with 10 laps to, SC. The grid re-forms, Vettel beats Hamilton to T1 and wins the race and title.

You could also potentially see a driver dominant an entire weekend, a late SC comes out and he gets jumped. Who wants to see that? That is not racing.

After a red flag I accept, because that happens maybe once every 2 seasons and a red flag can't be brought out intentionally. SC's happen about 15-20 times per season.


i hope they dont start bringing out red flags just to add the entertainment.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:05 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Personally I would do away with the safety car entirely. It's not needed.

Just make do with the VSC?


Yes. If the track is blocked then red flag otherwise the VSC should sufficient.

Totally agree :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:23 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Standing starts after a SC would be a disaster. I really hope they never implement it.

It is also open to race fixing. Imagine a championship deciding race. Hamilton leads Vettel in the final round, Vettel needs to win the race. Kimi puts it in the barrier with 10 laps to, SC. The grid re-forms, Vettel beats Hamilton to T1 and wins the race and title.

You could also potentially see a driver dominant an entire weekend, a late SC comes out and he gets jumped. Who wants to see that? That is not racing.

After a red flag I accept, because that happens maybe once every 2 seasons and a red flag can't be brought out intentionally. SC's happen about 15-20 times per season.


In theory that could happen in a race re-start as well though, so how more open to race fixing is it? It is always an inherent risk on a restart that one car can overtake another as the grid bunches up

Standing starts are far more haphazard then SC restarts, there is far more chances of drivers losing positions as well as contact, also I would say near the end of a race there is far more of a chance of drivers just going for it as opposed to the very start of the race were if they crash out then they've missed all the race, so I would say far more chance of carnage as well.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:26 pm 
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lucifers wrote:
lamo wrote:
Standing starts after a SC would be a disaster. I really hope they never implement it.

It is also open to race fixing. Imagine a championship deciding race. Hamilton leads Vettel in the final round, Vettel needs to win the race. Kimi puts it in the barrier with 10 laps to, SC. The grid re-forms, Vettel beats Hamilton to T1 and wins the race and title.

You could also potentially see a driver dominant an entire weekend, a late SC comes out and he gets jumped. Who wants to see that? That is not racing.

After a red flag I accept, because that happens maybe once every 2 seasons and a red flag can't be brought out intentionally. SC's happen about 15-20 times per season.


i hope they dont start bringing out red flags just to add the entertainment.

Yep if they start making F1 a dash for the cash then that's me considering checking out.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:06 am 
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I'm looking forward to the outrage when one of the following happens that leads to a safety car.

> safety car for debris in turn 7. (Why couldn't double yellows cover it. It's a open corner)

> a competition safety car on lap 15 of the 58 lap Australian grand prix .
We are after all owned by American company libety media.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:22 am 
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wire2004 wrote:
I'm looking forward to the outrage when one of the following happens that leads to a safety car.

> safety car for debris in turn 7. (Why couldn't double yellows cover it. It's a open corner)

> a competition safety car on lap 15 of the 58 lap Australian grand prix .
We are after all owned by American company libety media.


Could yet turn into NASCAR with its safety cars every five laps.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:20 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Personally I would do away with the safety car entirely. It's not needed.

Just make do with the VSC?


Yes. If the track is blocked then red flag otherwise the VSC should sufficient.

For some incidents yes. But others no. What if there is large debris on track? The safest way for a marshal to clear it is to bunch the pack up together giving the marshals a clear window. Under VSC conditions the cars are still travelling bloody quickly, could still do damage to a marshal in an accident and dont give them a sensible "car free window" to work in.


So reduce the VSC speeds further in the required zones.

This is not about a speed - this is about a car free window on the track.

Ultimately, what im trying to say is what speed is safe? You can kill a pedestrian at 30mph....


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:37 pm 
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angrypirate wrote:
This is not about a speed - this is about a car free window on the track.

Ultimately, what im trying to say is what speed is safe? You can kill a pedestrian at 30mph....


Only if the pedestrian walks in front of it. No F1 driver is going to lose control of his car at 30mph. Unless the track is blocked there should be no reason for car and marshals to get anywhere near one another.

I've never understood how people complain about things like DRS because its artificial but don't say a peep about the safety car. It's by far an away the most artificial factor in any race involving it.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:04 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
This is not about a speed - this is about a car free window on the track.

Ultimately, what im trying to say is what speed is safe? You can kill a pedestrian at 30mph....


Only if the pedestrian walks in front of it. No F1 driver is going to lose control of his car at 30mph. Unless the track is blocked there should be no reason for car and marshals to get anywhere near one another.

I've never understood how people complain about things like DRS because its artificial but don't say a peep about the safety car. It's by far an away the most artificial factor in any race involving it.

Yep and that's why the VSC was such a good step forward however with that they should be stopping cars from pitting and gaining an advantage, the purer the race the better, it's supposed to be a 50/70 lap race.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
This is not about a speed - this is about a car free window on the track.

Ultimately, what im trying to say is what speed is safe? You can kill a pedestrian at 30mph....


Only if the pedestrian walks in front of it. No F1 driver is going to lose control of his car at 30mph. Unless the track is blocked there should be no reason for car and marshals to get anywhere near one another.

I've never understood how people complain about things like DRS because its artificial but don't say a peep about the safety car. It's by far an away the most artificial factor in any race involving it.

On the whole im not happy about the safety car - there are many times in the past when it has been unnecessarily deployed. However there will always be a time and place for it (albeit with VSC these times are now minimised) and it should not be excluded as an option to make the track safe in order to marshals to carry out safety critical work. Surely a SC is a lot better than a red flag which results in a huge delay before cars then would set off again? Also bear in mind that if more than 75% of laps have been completed, a red flagged race isnt restarted


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:11 pm 
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angrypirate wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
This is not about a speed - this is about a car free window on the track.

Ultimately, what im trying to say is what speed is safe? You can kill a pedestrian at 30mph....


Only if the pedestrian walks in front of it. No F1 driver is going to lose control of his car at 30mph. Unless the track is blocked there should be no reason for car and marshals to get anywhere near one another.

I've never understood how people complain about things like DRS because its artificial but don't say a peep about the safety car. It's by far an away the most artificial factor in any race involving it.

On the whole im not happy about the safety car - there are many times in the past when it has been unnecessarily deployed. However there will always be a time and place for it (albeit with VSC these times are now minimised) and it should not be excluded as an option to make the track safe in order to marshals to carry out safety critical work. Surely a SC is a lot better than a red flag which results in a huge delay before cars then would set off again? Also bear in mind that if more than 75% of laps have been completed, a red flagged race isnt restarted

Yes a SC is a lot better than a red flag so long as there are not standing start restarts.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:56 pm 
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angrypirate wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
This is not about a speed - this is about a car free window on the track.

Ultimately, what im trying to say is what speed is safe? You can kill a pedestrian at 30mph....


Only if the pedestrian walks in front of it. No F1 driver is going to lose control of his car at 30mph. Unless the track is blocked there should be no reason for car and marshals to get anywhere near one another.

I've never understood how people complain about things like DRS because its artificial but don't say a peep about the safety car. It's by far an away the most artificial factor in any race involving it.

On the whole im not happy about the safety car - there are many times in the past when it has been unnecessarily deployed. However there will always be a time and place for it (albeit with VSC these times are now minimised) and it should not be excluded as an option to make the track safe in order to marshals to carry out safety critical work. Surely a SC is a lot better than a red flag which results in a huge delay before cars then would set off again? Also bear in mind that if more than 75% of laps have been completed, a red flagged race isnt restarted


Actually it sometimes is. Remember Monaco 2011? I think that's when it was?

You could easily maintain the gaps after a red flag. But a VSC should be able to cover 90% Of things.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:33 pm 
The majority of the period I have been watching F1 the SC has been used. Its not pure but I accept it and actually enjoy the possibility of it.

Baku 2017 was voted the race of the year by an absolute land slide, that was only possible due to SC. We don't want every race like that but classic races usually have lots of SC's. Jenson Button in Canada 2011 was impossible without the SC, he was nearly a lap down at one point... Hungary 2014 would have been won by Rosberg by an absolute mile without the SC (he had a 10 second lead in the first 6 laps) that turned into a classic.

Also, knowing that a SC can come out at any time is the last true random variable we have in F1, except the weather but most of the time there is 0% chance of rain.

25 years ago we had cars that weren't reliable, so somebody could blow up before the end. 25 years ago, we had tracks that punished drivers (now we have run offs) so a driver could make an error and DNF. 25 years ago, we had teams making mistakes in pit stops quite frequently - this doesn't happen anymore, they are all too well trained.

The SC is the last thing left to turn a race on its head. Lets face it, a lot of races are over within 20% at least knowing that a SC might come out makes the race more interesting. If the SC was made completely fair and maintained gaps, lots more people would switch off races early I feel. I know I likely would.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:44 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Standing starts after a SC would be a disaster. I really hope they never implement it.

It is also open to race fixing. Imagine a championship deciding race. Hamilton leads Vettel in the final round, Vettel needs to win the race. Kimi puts it in the barrier with 10 laps to, SC. The grid re-forms, Vettel beats Hamilton to T1 and wins the race and title.

You could also potentially see a driver dominant an entire weekend, a late SC comes out and he gets jumped. Who wants to see that? That is not racing.

After a red flag I accept, because that happens maybe once every 2 seasons and a red flag can't be brought out intentionally. SC's happen about 15-20 times per season.



I agree that is not racing however neither is this junk we are watching, no refueling, cars throttling down to save engine revs, tire strategy, 3 engines, grid penalties for a piece of a race car breaks? why dong they give grid penalties for a suspension failure? I nose breaking? I mean why on engine and transmission components? transmission is cheaper to replace than suspension or nose or side pods etc? This is the worst of F1.

Bring back unlimited testing, engines, take away Sims (which is more expensive than actual testing on circuit as that cost is shared. a typical sim program for the year runs in multi multi millions (you know they have a Sim team right? its stupid and I am fed up with this artificial F1.

Oh for the days of watching practice tests at Mugello or Silverstone with multiple cars testing fans get access to this, it builds excitement. engines are 1 price for the year cost so what difference if its 3 engines or 30? today Williams pays MB for engines no matter if they use 3 or 7 in the year so why not make it unlimited? if teams say its too costly then I assume the Sim programs they are running is not as robust as say MB so where is the outrage there?

to be honest F1 sucks

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:53 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Personally I would do away with the safety car entirely. It's not needed.

Just make do with the VSC?


Yes. If the track is blocked then red flag otherwise the VSC should sufficient.

For some incidents yes. But others no. What if there is large debris on track? The safest way for a marshal to clear it is to bunch the pack up together giving the marshals a clear window. Under VSC conditions the cars are still travelling bloody quickly, could still do damage to a marshal in an accident and dont give them a sensible "car free window" to work in.


So reduce the VSC speeds further in the required zones.

And if the cars are space all around the track making no real opportunity to remove any debris safely as the gap in time might not be enough?

Personally, I don't think getting rid of the safety cars is a good idea.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:35 pm 
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Blake wrote:
And if the cars are space all around the track making no real opportunity to remove any debris safely as the gap in time might not be enough?

Personally, I don't think getting rid of the safety cars is a good idea.


Unless the track is covered or it is right on a blind corner then you don't need a gap to remove debris if the cars are going slow enough. In Formula E race control can talk to the drivers directly. Why not have that in F1? "Marshals will be collecting debris from the middle of the track between turns 5 and 6. Please keep as far as possible over to the right hand side and the VSC speed will be set at 40mph"

Or something like that.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:44 pm 
I've been karting where race control could speak to you through a headphone in the helmet. Its amazing they don't have that in F1 already.


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