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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:47 pm 
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The minimum limit will be set at 80 kilogrammes. Drivers who weigh less than that will be required to carry ballast taking them up to that level.

The new rule will allow driver weights and car weights to be handled separately by the regulations. This has been deemed necessary because a series of rules changes has increased the minimum weight of F1 cars, meaning taller drivers are increasingly at a disadvantage. The addition of Halo to the 2018 F1 cars has significantly increased the weight of the safety structures around the cockpit


https://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2018/01/19/ ... nned-2019/


Good news for some of the bigger guys like Ericsson and Hulk at last.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:57 pm 
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On a separate note the cars now generally are way too heavy.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:03 pm 
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Yeah agree, the Halo has hurt Force India I was reading a few weeks ago. Seems they're struggling to still be able to use ballast for this year.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:11 pm 
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A sensible move, this should have been done years ago. I'm concerned about the increase in the weight of the cars though. It feels like the increased weight has undone most of the benefits of the new aero rules, particularly as I imagine the halo will lift the car's centre of mass quite significantly. With Pirelli's more fragile tyres for next year I wonder if we'll be back in the region of 2016 lap times.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:04 pm 
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j man wrote:
A sensible move, this should have been done years ago. I'm concerned about the increase in the weight of the cars though. It feels like the increased weight has undone most of the benefits of the new aero rules, particularly as I imagine the halo will lift the car's centre of mass quite significantly. With Pirelli's more fragile tyres for next year I wonder if we'll be back in the region of 2016 lap times.



Not necessarily, yes the weight of the cars has increased but the output of the power units has also increased. The power to weight ratio may not be as far off as one might suspect...... Now car balancing issues and getting the tires to work could present itself to be an issue for more teams this year but its all speculation at this point.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:58 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Yeah agree, the Halo has hurt Force India I was reading a few weeks ago. Seems they're struggling to still be able to use ballast for this year.

I just don't understand how such a high level sport can be so amateurish at times, the halo and attachments weigh 15Kg so increase the weight of the car by 15Kg, simple.

Also regarding driver weights why did it take so long to bring out such a simple regulation that many have asked for years now, 80Kg minimum weight for driver and seat, for too long light drivers have had an unfair advantage.

The heaviest driver in F1 is the Hulk, how much advantage did Perez have by being able to place 11Kg extra of ballast within the car, also next year with him being 8Kg heavier than Sainz will he be actually running heavier than Sainz?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Yeah agree, the Halo has hurt Force India I was reading a few weeks ago. Seems they're struggling to still be able to use ballast for this year.

I just don't understand how such a high level sport can be so amateurish at times, the halo and attachments weigh 15Kg so increase the weight of the car by 15Kg, simple.

Also regarding driver weights why did it take so long to bring out such a simple regulation that many have asked for years now, 80Kg minimum weight for driver and seat, for too long light drivers have had an unfair advantage.

The heaviest driver in F1 is the Hulk, how much advantage did Perez have by being able to place 11Kg extra of ballast within the car, also next year with him being 8Kg heavier than Sainz will he be actually running heavier than Sainz?


TBF F1 has done better than most sports in this. Almost every sport favours big or tall - Short or light etc. Basketball has never installed lower hoops to allow players under 6ft to have a chance. TBH being bigger is an advantage in most major sports. I've never minded F1 being one of the few that being small and light helps. I mean Perez or Massa could never play rugby could they?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:21 pm 
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Something I had never considered until I read this thread, at what height does a driver become too tall for the halo?
This is not overall height, some have long legs some have long bodies, but at some point the drivers head will be up in the danger zone of a wheel dropping into the Halo. They are not flat, so a large head room is needed.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
The heaviest driver in F1 is the Hulk, how much advantage did Perez have by being able to place 11Kg extra of ballast within the car, also next year with him being 8Kg heavier than Sainz will he be actually running heavier than Sainz?


Specifics are not clear yet but I would suspect that the meaning/intent is that the driver and seat must total 80kg. Meaning that the ballast must be located in the seat. This precludes the team taking advantage by placing ballast where it is advantageous and/or allowing them freedom the add heavier components to the car than they would not have done otherwise. Total weight of the cars should be the same.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Yeah agree, the Halo has hurt Force India I was reading a few weeks ago. Seems they're struggling to still be able to use ballast for this year.

I just don't understand how such a high level sport can be so amateurish at times, the halo and attachments weigh 15Kg so increase the weight of the car by 15Kg, simple.

Also regarding driver weights why did it take so long to bring out such a simple regulation that many have asked for years now, 80Kg minimum weight for driver and seat, for too long light drivers have had an unfair advantage.

The heaviest driver in F1 is the Hulk, how much advantage did Perez have by being able to place 11Kg extra of ballast within the car, also next year with him being 8Kg heavier than Sainz will he be actually running heavier than Sainz?


Yeah I see your point, it's frustrating for teams like FI who were going to have it tough with Macca and Renault anyway but this probably takes them out of it if true. McLaren have already confirmed they still have ballast.

It got vetoed/voted down a few times I believe. (I'm guessing by a team with a couple of shorties!)

I'd assumed and I'm hoping it's as ETM3 describes above as that's the fair way. Minimum car and driver weight that's separate from the car, so both Sainz and Hulk and seats(And ballast if the driver's under) would be 80kg.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:21 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Yeah agree, the Halo has hurt Force India I was reading a few weeks ago. Seems they're struggling to still be able to use ballast for this year.

I just don't understand how such a high level sport can be so amateurish at times, the halo and attachments weigh 15Kg so increase the weight of the car by 15Kg, simple.

Also regarding driver weights why did it take so long to bring out such a simple regulation that many have asked for years now, 80Kg minimum weight for driver and seat, for too long light drivers have had an unfair advantage.

The heaviest driver in F1 is the Hulk, how much advantage did Perez have by being able to place 11Kg extra of ballast within the car, also next year with him being 8Kg heavier than Sainz will he be actually running heavier than Sainz?


TBF F1 has done better than most sports in this. Almost every sport favours big or tall - Short or light etc. Basketball has never installed lower hoops to allow players under 6ft to have a chance. TBH being bigger is an advantage in most major sports. I've never minded F1 being one of the few that being small and light helps. I mean Perez or Massa could never play rugby could they?

Motor racing is different because weight can be measured in lap time difference, whereas in most other sports competitors can bring something different with their height and weight, footballers for instance can range from 5'6" to 6'9" and in combat sports they have weight classes otherwise a small person could never win.

Going back to motor racing if you take part in even grass roots karting they have minimum weight limits otherwise most people that take part would just be wasting their time, somebody weighing 9st has a 6 tenths advantage over a 11 stone driver and 11 stone is far from being average weight for a man.

The proposed 80Kg limit equates to 12.5st so that gives good scope for an average man to compete and not drain himself, in respect to the Hulk if he had to compete based purely on his weight disadvantage then his F1 career would have been short lived.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:26 am 
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ETM3 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The heaviest driver in F1 is the Hulk, how much advantage did Perez have by being able to place 11Kg extra of ballast within the car, also next year with him being 8Kg heavier than Sainz will he be actually running heavier than Sainz?


Specifics are not clear yet but I would suspect that the meaning/intent is that the driver and seat must total 80kg. Meaning that the ballast must be located in the seat. This precludes the team taking advantage by placing ballast where it is advantageous and/or allowing them freedom the add heavier components to the car than they would not have done otherwise. Total weight of the cars should be the same.

No I'm referencing things that have happened in the recent past, on a total level playing field the Hulk perhaps beats Perez, next year the Hulk could be greatly disadvantaged against Sainz because of the weight of the halo and teams struggling to meet the weight limit, then finally in 2019 the Hulk has a total level playing field.

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Last edited by pokerman on Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:29 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Yeah agree, the Halo has hurt Force India I was reading a few weeks ago. Seems they're struggling to still be able to use ballast for this year.

I just don't understand how such a high level sport can be so amateurish at times, the halo and attachments weigh 15Kg so increase the weight of the car by 15Kg, simple.

Also regarding driver weights why did it take so long to bring out such a simple regulation that many have asked for years now, 80Kg minimum weight for driver and seat, for too long light drivers have had an unfair advantage.

The heaviest driver in F1 is the Hulk, how much advantage did Perez have by being able to place 11Kg extra of ballast within the car, also next year with him being 8Kg heavier than Sainz will he be actually running heavier than Sainz?


Yeah I see your point, it's frustrating for teams like FI who were going to have it tough with Macca and Renault anyway but this probably takes them out of it if true. McLaren have already confirmed they still have ballast.

It got vetoed/voted down a few times I believe. (I'm guessing by a team with a couple of shorties!)

I'd assumed and I'm hoping it's as ETM3 describes above as that's the fair way. Minimum car and driver weight that's separate from the car, so both Sainz and Hulk and seats(And ballast if the driver's under) would be 80kg.

Yes I heard it got vetoed in the past, 5'5" Massa was able to veto it, why it wasn't merely pushed through by the FIA baffles me.

Yes it's seat and driver will have to weigh 80Kg in 2019.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:38 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Yeah agree, the Halo has hurt Force India I was reading a few weeks ago. Seems they're struggling to still be able to use ballast for this year.

I just don't understand how such a high level sport can be so amateurish at times, the halo and attachments weigh 15Kg so increase the weight of the car by 15Kg, simple.

Also regarding driver weights why did it take so long to bring out such a simple regulation that many have asked for years now, 80Kg minimum weight for driver and seat, for too long light drivers have had an unfair advantage.

The heaviest driver in F1 is the Hulk, how much advantage did Perez have by being able to place 11Kg extra of ballast within the car, also next year with him being 8Kg heavier than Sainz will he be actually running heavier than Sainz?


TBF F1 has done better than most sports in this. Almost every sport favours big or tall - Short or light etc. Basketball has never installed lower hoops to allow players under 6ft to have a chance. TBH being bigger is an advantage in most major sports. I've never minded F1 being one of the few that being small and light helps. I mean Perez or Massa could never play rugby could they?

Motor racing is different because weight can be measured in lap time difference, whereas in most other sports competitors can bring something different with their height and weight, footballers for instance can range from 5'6" to 6'9" and in combat sports they have weight classes otherwise a small person could never win.

Going back to motor racing if you take part in even grass roots karting they have minimum weight limits otherwise most people that take part would just be wasting their time, somebody weighing 9st has a 6 tenths advantage over a 11 stone driver and 11 stone is far from being average weight for a man.

The proposed 80Kg limit equates to 12.5st so that gives good scope for an average man to compete and not drain himself, in respect to the Hulk if he had to compete based purely on his weight disadvantage then his F1 career would have been short lived.


What is rugby or basketball doing to help Perez and Massa? Rather than simply being disadvantaged these are sports they simply can't compete at. People are only interested in equalisation when the bigger man is comprised.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:02 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Yeah agree, the Halo has hurt Force India I was reading a few weeks ago. Seems they're struggling to still be able to use ballast for this year.

I just don't understand how such a high level sport can be so amateurish at times, the halo and attachments weigh 15Kg so increase the weight of the car by 15Kg, simple.

Also regarding driver weights why did it take so long to bring out such a simple regulation that many have asked for years now, 80Kg minimum weight for driver and seat, for too long light drivers have had an unfair advantage.

The heaviest driver in F1 is the Hulk, how much advantage did Perez have by being able to place 11Kg extra of ballast within the car, also next year with him being 8Kg heavier than Sainz will he be actually running heavier than Sainz?


TBF F1 has done better than most sports in this. Almost every sport favours big or tall - Short or light etc. Basketball has never installed lower hoops to allow players under 6ft to have a chance. TBH being bigger is an advantage in most major sports. I've never minded F1 being one of the few that being small and light helps. I mean Perez or Massa could never play rugby could they?

Motor racing is different because weight can be measured in lap time difference, whereas in most other sports competitors can bring something different with their height and weight, footballers for instance can range from 5'6" to 6'9" and in combat sports they have weight classes otherwise a small person could never win.

Going back to motor racing if you take part in even grass roots karting they have minimum weight limits otherwise most people that take part would just be wasting their time, somebody weighing 9st has a 6 tenths advantage over a 11 stone driver and 11 stone is far from being average weight for a man.

The proposed 80Kg limit equates to 12.5st so that gives good scope for an average man to compete and not drain himself, in respect to the Hulk if he had to compete based purely on his weight disadvantage then his F1 career would have been short lived.


What is rugby or basketball doing to help Perez and Massa? Rather than simply being disadvantaged these are sports they simply can't compete at. People are only interested in equalisation when the bigger man is comprised.

I don't think you can compare with these sports which are physical contact sports, F1 is a mechanical sport, if you don't give drivers an equal power to weight ratio then most of the grid would consist of 9 stone drivers.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:08 am 
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How ballast effects F1 drivers

"lighter drivers, such as Felipe Massa, who weighs 59 kilos, will have an advantage over taller drivers like Nico Hulkenberg, who weighs in at 74 kilos. The preference is for the car and driver to weigh in below the minimum weight and for ballast to make up the difference. The heavier a driver is the less ballast the teams have to play with. That means that taller drivers like Hulkenberg face the risk of being overlooked for competitive seats simply because they are too heavy.

1kg of weight equates to about 0.035secs a lap on an average circuit. So, for example, Sebastain Vettel (65kg) will be 0.35s faster on a lap than Nico Hulkenberg (75kg) all other things being equal. A taller driver is also at a disadvantage because his weight is high up in the car."

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/ballast.html

Also lets not forget thats teams have been adding ballast (weight) at strategic points around the cars for years to help with setups on any given track.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:39 pm 
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Mayhem wrote:
How ballast effects F1 drivers

"lighter drivers, such as Felipe Massa, who weighs 59 kilos, will have an advantage over taller drivers like Nico Hulkenberg, who weighs in at 74 kilos. The preference is for the car and driver to weigh in below the minimum weight and for ballast to make up the difference. The heavier a driver is the less ballast the teams have to play with. That means that taller drivers like Hulkenberg face the risk of being overlooked for competitive seats simply because they are too heavy.

1kg of weight equates to about 0.035secs a lap on an average circuit. So, for example, Sebastain Vettel (65kg) will be 0.35s faster on a lap than Nico Hulkenberg (75kg) all other things being equal. A taller driver is also at a disadvantage because his weight is high up in the car."

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/ballast.html

Also lets not forget thats teams have been adding ballast (weight) at strategic points around the cars for years to help with setups on any given track.

Indeed and the question is do we want an average weight man to be disadvantaged by jockey sized drivers like the 5'5" Massa's?

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2016: 4th Place

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:51 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
How ballast effects F1 drivers

"lighter drivers, such as Felipe Massa, who weighs 59 kilos, will have an advantage over taller drivers like Nico Hulkenberg, who weighs in at 74 kilos. The preference is for the car and driver to weigh in below the minimum weight and for ballast to make up the difference. The heavier a driver is the less ballast the teams have to play with. That means that taller drivers like Hulkenberg face the risk of being overlooked for competitive seats simply because they are too heavy.

1kg of weight equates to about 0.035secs a lap on an average circuit. So, for example, Sebastain Vettel (65kg) will be 0.35s faster on a lap than Nico Hulkenberg (75kg) all other things being equal. A taller driver is also at a disadvantage because his weight is high up in the car."

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/ballast.html

Also lets not forget thats teams have been adding ballast (weight) at strategic points around the cars for years to help with setups on any given track.

Indeed and the question is do we want an average weight man to be disadvantaged by jockey sized drivers like the 5'5" Massa's?

Now that you mention jockeys... do you think there should be a minimum weight in horse races as well to not disadvantage non-jockey sized riders?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:05 am 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
How ballast effects F1 drivers

"lighter drivers, such as Felipe Massa, who weighs 59 kilos, will have an advantage over taller drivers like Nico Hulkenberg, who weighs in at 74 kilos. The preference is for the car and driver to weigh in below the minimum weight and for ballast to make up the difference. The heavier a driver is the less ballast the teams have to play with. That means that taller drivers like Hulkenberg face the risk of being overlooked for competitive seats simply because they are too heavy.

1kg of weight equates to about 0.035secs a lap on an average circuit. So, for example, Sebastain Vettel (65kg) will be 0.35s faster on a lap than Nico Hulkenberg (75kg) all other things being equal. A taller driver is also at a disadvantage because his weight is high up in the car."

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/ballast.html

Also lets not forget thats teams have been adding ballast (weight) at strategic points around the cars for years to help with setups on any given track.

Indeed and the question is do we want an average weight man to be disadvantaged by jockey sized drivers like the 5'5" Massa's?

Now that you mention jockeys... do you think there should be a minimum weight in horse races as well to not disadvantage non-jockey sized riders?


I don't really care about horse racing, but from what I've seen horse racing is more about the horses with a few elite jockeys able to jump between the good horses from race to race and really it is just an excuse to gamble rather than people becoming emotionally invested or a fan of a specific jockey or horse.

In F1 the drivers are supposed to mean something to people, its who people connect with, and I'd rather we didn't eradicate a whole bunch of talent because tiny people are accidentally quicker.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:45 am 
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Ennis wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
How ballast effects F1 drivers

"lighter drivers, such as Felipe Massa, who weighs 59 kilos, will have an advantage over taller drivers like Nico Hulkenberg, who weighs in at 74 kilos. The preference is for the car and driver to weigh in below the minimum weight and for ballast to make up the difference. The heavier a driver is the less ballast the teams have to play with. That means that taller drivers like Hulkenberg face the risk of being overlooked for competitive seats simply because they are too heavy.

1kg of weight equates to about 0.035secs a lap on an average circuit. So, for example, Sebastain Vettel (65kg) will be 0.35s faster on a lap than Nico Hulkenberg (75kg) all other things being equal. A taller driver is also at a disadvantage because his weight is high up in the car."

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/ballast.html

Also lets not forget thats teams have been adding ballast (weight) at strategic points around the cars for years to help with setups on any given track.

Indeed and the question is do we want an average weight man to be disadvantaged by jockey sized drivers like the 5'5" Massa's?

Now that you mention jockeys... do you think there should be a minimum weight in horse races as well to not disadvantage non-jockey sized riders?


I don't really care about horse racing, but from what I've seen horse racing is more about the horses with a few elite jockeys able to jump between the good horses from race to race and really it is just an excuse to gamble rather than people becoming emotionally invested or a fan of a specific jockey or horse.

In F1 the drivers are supposed to mean something to people, its who people connect with, and I'd rather we didn't eradicate a whole bunch of talent because tiny people are accidentally quicker.


Why does that argument not apply to sports that benefits a larger size. Perez or Massa could never have taken up a career in Rugby, Basketball or probably even tennis no matter how much talent they had. Hulkenberg could.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:42 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
How ballast effects F1 drivers

"lighter drivers, such as Felipe Massa, who weighs 59 kilos, will have an advantage over taller drivers like Nico Hulkenberg, who weighs in at 74 kilos. The preference is for the car and driver to weigh in below the minimum weight and for ballast to make up the difference. The heavier a driver is the less ballast the teams have to play with. That means that taller drivers like Hulkenberg face the risk of being overlooked for competitive seats simply because they are too heavy.

1kg of weight equates to about 0.035secs a lap on an average circuit. So, for example, Sebastain Vettel (65kg) will be 0.35s faster on a lap than Nico Hulkenberg (75kg) all other things being equal. A taller driver is also at a disadvantage because his weight is high up in the car."

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/ballast.html

Also lets not forget thats teams have been adding ballast (weight) at strategic points around the cars for years to help with setups on any given track.

Indeed and the question is do we want an average weight man to be disadvantaged by jockey sized drivers like the 5'5" Massa's?

Now that you mention jockeys... do you think there should be a minimum weight in horse races as well to not disadvantage non-jockey sized riders?


I don't really care about horse racing, but from what I've seen horse racing is more about the horses with a few elite jockeys able to jump between the good horses from race to race and really it is just an excuse to gamble rather than people becoming emotionally invested or a fan of a specific jockey or horse.

In F1 the drivers are supposed to mean something to people, its who people connect with, and I'd rather we didn't eradicate a whole bunch of talent because tiny people are accidentally quicker.


I'm sure there are plenty of kids who want to become jockeys like their idols only to get their dreams crushed once puberty hits and they grow too large.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:57 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
How ballast effects F1 drivers

"lighter drivers, such as Felipe Massa, who weighs 59 kilos, will have an advantage over taller drivers like Nico Hulkenberg, who weighs in at 74 kilos. The preference is for the car and driver to weigh in below the minimum weight and for ballast to make up the difference. The heavier a driver is the less ballast the teams have to play with. That means that taller drivers like Hulkenberg face the risk of being overlooked for competitive seats simply because they are too heavy.

1kg of weight equates to about 0.035secs a lap on an average circuit. So, for example, Sebastain Vettel (65kg) will be 0.35s faster on a lap than Nico Hulkenberg (75kg) all other things being equal. A taller driver is also at a disadvantage because his weight is high up in the car."

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/ballast.html

Also lets not forget thats teams have been adding ballast (weight) at strategic points around the cars for years to help with setups on any given track.

Indeed and the question is do we want an average weight man to be disadvantaged by jockey sized drivers like the 5'5" Massa's?

Now that you mention jockeys... do you think there should be a minimum weight in horse races as well to not disadvantage non-jockey sized riders?


I don't really care about horse racing, but from what I've seen horse racing is more about the horses with a few elite jockeys able to jump between the good horses from race to race and really it is just an excuse to gamble rather than people becoming emotionally invested or a fan of a specific jockey or horse.

In F1 the drivers are supposed to mean something to people, its who people connect with, and I'd rather we didn't eradicate a whole bunch of talent because tiny people are accidentally quicker.


Why does that argument not apply to sports that benefits a larger size. Perez or Massa could never have taken up a career in Rugby, Basketball or probably even tennis no matter how much talent they had. Hulkenberg could.

Tell this to Spud Webb or Muggsy Bogues... Imagination is the only limit for humans. If you have the skill, you can make it work


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:52 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
How ballast effects F1 drivers

"lighter drivers, such as Felipe Massa, who weighs 59 kilos, will have an advantage over taller drivers like Nico Hulkenberg, who weighs in at 74 kilos. The preference is for the car and driver to weigh in below the minimum weight and for ballast to make up the difference. The heavier a driver is the less ballast the teams have to play with. That means that taller drivers like Hulkenberg face the risk of being overlooked for competitive seats simply because they are too heavy.

1kg of weight equates to about 0.035secs a lap on an average circuit. So, for example, Sebastain Vettel (65kg) will be 0.35s faster on a lap than Nico Hulkenberg (75kg) all other things being equal. A taller driver is also at a disadvantage because his weight is high up in the car."

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/ballast.html

Also lets not forget thats teams have been adding ballast (weight) at strategic points around the cars for years to help with setups on any given track.

Indeed and the question is do we want an average weight man to be disadvantaged by jockey sized drivers like the 5'5" Massa's?

Now that you mention jockeys... do you think there should be a minimum weight in horse races as well to not disadvantage non-jockey sized riders?


I don't really care about horse racing, but from what I've seen horse racing is more about the horses with a few elite jockeys able to jump between the good horses from race to race and really it is just an excuse to gamble rather than people becoming emotionally invested or a fan of a specific jockey or horse.

In F1 the drivers are supposed to mean something to people, its who people connect with, and I'd rather we didn't eradicate a whole bunch of talent because tiny people are accidentally quicker.


Why does that argument not apply to sports that benefits a larger size. Perez or Massa could never have taken up a career in Rugby, Basketball or probably even tennis no matter how much talent they had. Hulkenberg could.


Because many sports don't have a decent solution, particularly team sports. Genetics always play a part anyway, train me all you want but I'll never play football like Messi, tennis like Andy Murray or golf like Rory McIlroy. Hell, even in MMA which has weight divisions to counter this somewhat we just seen someone reach the #2 ranked heavyweight in the world with very little training (in relative terms) and technique way worse than most of the people he was fighting, purely because he's an absolute genetic monster with crazy natural power.

In F1 we have a situation where we have weight allowances and the ability to add ballast. The only thing even comparable I can think of (other than other motor-racing where I'd put forward the same argument), is horse-riding where they could potentially add weight to jockeys/horses. I'm neither for or against this because I don't particularly care, if someone asked me to pick a solution I'd say add weight and let anyone within reason be a jockey.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:53 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
How ballast effects F1 drivers

"lighter drivers, such as Felipe Massa, who weighs 59 kilos, will have an advantage over taller drivers like Nico Hulkenberg, who weighs in at 74 kilos. The preference is for the car and driver to weigh in below the minimum weight and for ballast to make up the difference. The heavier a driver is the less ballast the teams have to play with. That means that taller drivers like Hulkenberg face the risk of being overlooked for competitive seats simply because they are too heavy.

1kg of weight equates to about 0.035secs a lap on an average circuit. So, for example, Sebastain Vettel (65kg) will be 0.35s faster on a lap than Nico Hulkenberg (75kg) all other things being equal. A taller driver is also at a disadvantage because his weight is high up in the car."

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/ballast.html

Also lets not forget thats teams have been adding ballast (weight) at strategic points around the cars for years to help with setups on any given track.

Indeed and the question is do we want an average weight man to be disadvantaged by jockey sized drivers like the 5'5" Massa's?

Now that you mention jockeys... do you think there should be a minimum weight in horse races as well to not disadvantage non-jockey sized riders?


I don't really care about horse racing, but from what I've seen horse racing is more about the horses with a few elite jockeys able to jump between the good horses from race to race and really it is just an excuse to gamble rather than people becoming emotionally invested or a fan of a specific jockey or horse.

In F1 the drivers are supposed to mean something to people, its who people connect with, and I'd rather we didn't eradicate a whole bunch of talent because tiny people are accidentally quicker.


I'm sure there are plenty of kids who want to become jockeys like their idols only to get their dreams crushed once puberty hits and they grow too large.


That's a shame.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:32 am 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
How ballast effects F1 drivers

"lighter drivers, such as Felipe Massa, who weighs 59 kilos, will have an advantage over taller drivers like Nico Hulkenberg, who weighs in at 74 kilos. The preference is for the car and driver to weigh in below the minimum weight and for ballast to make up the difference. The heavier a driver is the less ballast the teams have to play with. That means that taller drivers like Hulkenberg face the risk of being overlooked for competitive seats simply because they are too heavy.

1kg of weight equates to about 0.035secs a lap on an average circuit. So, for example, Sebastain Vettel (65kg) will be 0.35s faster on a lap than Nico Hulkenberg (75kg) all other things being equal. A taller driver is also at a disadvantage because his weight is high up in the car."

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/ballast.html

Also lets not forget thats teams have been adding ballast (weight) at strategic points around the cars for years to help with setups on any given track.

Indeed and the question is do we want an average weight man to be disadvantaged by jockey sized drivers like the 5'5" Massa's?

Now that you mention jockeys... do you think there should be a minimum weight in horse races as well to not disadvantage non-jockey sized riders?

I don't have much interest in horse racing although I believe in some races they ballast the horses?

Anyway regarding horse racing without the gambling would there be a race in the first place, it's not something I much care about but it's a nice day out for some and a bit of a flutter.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:35 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
How ballast effects F1 drivers

"lighter drivers, such as Felipe Massa, who weighs 59 kilos, will have an advantage over taller drivers like Nico Hulkenberg, who weighs in at 74 kilos. The preference is for the car and driver to weigh in below the minimum weight and for ballast to make up the difference. The heavier a driver is the less ballast the teams have to play with. That means that taller drivers like Hulkenberg face the risk of being overlooked for competitive seats simply because they are too heavy.

1kg of weight equates to about 0.035secs a lap on an average circuit. So, for example, Sebastain Vettel (65kg) will be 0.35s faster on a lap than Nico Hulkenberg (75kg) all other things being equal. A taller driver is also at a disadvantage because his weight is high up in the car."

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/ballast.html

Also lets not forget thats teams have been adding ballast (weight) at strategic points around the cars for years to help with setups on any given track.

Indeed and the question is do we want an average weight man to be disadvantaged by jockey sized drivers like the 5'5" Massa's?

Now that you mention jockeys... do you think there should be a minimum weight in horse races as well to not disadvantage non-jockey sized riders?


I don't really care about horse racing, but from what I've seen horse racing is more about the horses with a few elite jockeys able to jump between the good horses from race to race and really it is just an excuse to gamble rather than people becoming emotionally invested or a fan of a specific jockey or horse.

In F1 the drivers are supposed to mean something to people, its who people connect with, and I'd rather we didn't eradicate a whole bunch of talent because tiny people are accidentally quicker.


Why does that argument not apply to sports that benefits a larger size. Perez or Massa could never have taken up a career in Rugby, Basketball or probably even tennis no matter how much talent they had. Hulkenberg could.

With driver weights being ignored Massa gains about 3 tenths on Alonso and then how we view Alonso and Massa is much changed.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:38 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
How ballast effects F1 drivers

"lighter drivers, such as Felipe Massa, who weighs 59 kilos, will have an advantage over taller drivers like Nico Hulkenberg, who weighs in at 74 kilos. The preference is for the car and driver to weigh in below the minimum weight and for ballast to make up the difference. The heavier a driver is the less ballast the teams have to play with. That means that taller drivers like Hulkenberg face the risk of being overlooked for competitive seats simply because they are too heavy.

1kg of weight equates to about 0.035secs a lap on an average circuit. So, for example, Sebastain Vettel (65kg) will be 0.35s faster on a lap than Nico Hulkenberg (75kg) all other things being equal. A taller driver is also at a disadvantage because his weight is high up in the car."

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/ballast.html

Also lets not forget thats teams have been adding ballast (weight) at strategic points around the cars for years to help with setups on any given track.

Indeed and the question is do we want an average weight man to be disadvantaged by jockey sized drivers like the 5'5" Massa's?

Now that you mention jockeys... do you think there should be a minimum weight in horse races as well to not disadvantage non-jockey sized riders?


I don't really care about horse racing, but from what I've seen horse racing is more about the horses with a few elite jockeys able to jump between the good horses from race to race and really it is just an excuse to gamble rather than people becoming emotionally invested or a fan of a specific jockey or horse.

In F1 the drivers are supposed to mean something to people, its who people connect with, and I'd rather we didn't eradicate a whole bunch of talent because tiny people are accidentally quicker.


I'm sure there are plenty of kids who want to become jockeys like their idols only to get their dreams crushed once puberty hits and they grow too large.

Are jockeys idolised that much, I don't know anything about it?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:55 am 
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pokerman wrote:
With driver weights being ignored Massa gains about 3 tenths on Alonso and then how we view Alonso and Massa is much changed.


Under current rules that's not true unless the car they are driving is over weight.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Now that you mention jockeys... do you think there should be a minimum weight in horse races as well to not disadvantage non-jockey sized riders?
I don't really care about horse racing, but from what I've seen horse racing is more about the horses with a few elite jockeys able to jump between the good horses from race to race and really it is just an excuse to gamble rather than people becoming emotionally invested or a fan of a specific jockey or horse.

In F1 the drivers are supposed to mean something to people, its who people connect with, and I'd rather we didn't eradicate a whole bunch of talent because tiny people are accidentally quicker.


I'm sure there are plenty of kids who want to become jockeys like their idols only to get their dreams crushed once puberty hits and they grow too large.
Are jockeys idolised that much, I don't know anything about it?
I follow horse racing a little and can tell you that people do become emotionally attached to horses (and jockeys).
In terms of 'ballast' races are either run on level weights or in a handicap, weights allocated according to form. These weights are horse, jockey and kit (saddle, bridle etc) combined. Weights will be placed in the saddle to make up the desired amount.
Mares (female of the species) carry a weight allowance and 'rookie' (known as 'conditional') jockeys can also claim an allowance, I believe, until so many wins (or races, I'm not sure) are registered.
As with F1, the sport will favour the smaller jockey.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:54 pm 
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At the risk of sounding controversial, why do we need a weight limit in F1 anyway? All the chassis structures go through comprehensive crash testing which they must pass prior to being allowed on track so I cant see it being a safety issue. As far as I can see, its another area where the FIA have prevented development (like they did with engines) except this one has the potential to trickle down into road cars (can you imagine the savings in fuel efficiency if road cars were all 10% lighter?).

And yes, some drivers would have a physical advantage over other drivers but hey, thats life and practically every other sport out there.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:03 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
How ballast effects F1 drivers

"lighter drivers, such as Felipe Massa, who weighs 59 kilos, will have an advantage over taller drivers like Nico Hulkenberg, who weighs in at 74 kilos. The preference is for the car and driver to weigh in below the minimum weight and for ballast to make up the difference. The heavier a driver is the less ballast the teams have to play with. That means that taller drivers like Hulkenberg face the risk of being overlooked for competitive seats simply because they are too heavy.

1kg of weight equates to about 0.035secs a lap on an average circuit. So, for example, Sebastain Vettel (65kg) will be 0.35s faster on a lap than Nico Hulkenberg (75kg) all other things being equal. A taller driver is also at a disadvantage because his weight is high up in the car."

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/ballast.html

Also lets not forget thats teams have been adding ballast (weight) at strategic points around the cars for years to help with setups on any given track.

Indeed and the question is do we want an average weight man to be disadvantaged by jockey sized drivers like the 5'5" Massa's?

Now that you mention jockeys... do you think there should be a minimum weight in horse races as well to not disadvantage non-jockey sized riders?


I don't really care about horse racing, but from what I've seen horse racing is more about the horses with a few elite jockeys able to jump between the good horses from race to race and really it is just an excuse to gamble rather than people becoming emotionally invested or a fan of a specific jockey or horse.

In F1 the drivers are supposed to mean something to people, its who people connect with, and I'd rather we didn't eradicate a whole bunch of talent because tiny people are accidentally quicker.


Why does that argument not apply to sports that benefits a larger size. Perez or Massa could never have taken up a career in Rugby, Basketball or probably even tennis no matter how much talent they had. Hulkenberg could.

While I see your point that size can be an advantage or disadvantage in other sports too, I think there's something that you are not taking into consideration here. In basketball, for example, a big huge guy like Shaq does have an advantage that is hard to compete with, however, a much smaller guy (relatively speaking) like Stephen Curry will probably have an easier time developing skills like shooting or handling the ball than someone so big. So there are some things that will favor the smaller guy.

There is really no benefit whatsoever to the bigger guy in racing and the advantage that the smaller guy is given is completely avoidable wheres in basketball, there really is no feasible way to remove the advantage of taller players without totally transforming the game to something completely different.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:38 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
While I see your point that size can be an advantage or disadvantage in other sports too, I think there's something that you are not taking into consideration here. In basketball, for example, a big huge guy like Shaq does have an advantage that is hard to compete with, however, a much smaller guy (relatively speaking) like Stephen Curry will probably have an easier time developing skills like shooting or handling the ball than someone so big. So there are some things that will favor the smaller guy.

There is really no benefit whatsoever to the bigger guy in racing and the advantage that the smaller guy is given is completely avoidable wheres in basketball, there really is no feasible way to remove the advantage of taller players without totally transforming the game to something completely different.


Zactly. F1 actually has the opportunity to do something about it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:41 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:

Why does that argument not apply to sports that benefits a larger size. Perez or Massa could never have taken up a career in Rugby, Basketball or probably even tennis no matter how much talent they had. Hulkenberg could.

Tell this to Spud Webb or Muggsy Bogues... Imagination is the only limit for humans. If you have the skill, you can make it work[/quote]

Exactly, you can make up for size in other sport with skills. There have been great tennis players and basketball players that were not tall. Rod Laver, Michael Chang, Isaiah Thomas, on top of those already named above. Their small size was actually an asset because they could move better. In motorsports there really is no way to make up for being heavier. Completely different dynamic.

The fact Hulk was able to match or beat Perez more often than not on pace tells me that he is the more skilled driver of the two. When they are going to regulate driver weight, it is going to be very interesting to see the pecking order with the drivers.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:48 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

Why does that argument not apply to sports that benefits a larger size. Perez or Massa could never have taken up a career in Rugby, Basketball or probably even tennis no matter how much talent they had. Hulkenberg could.

Tell this to Spud Webb or Muggsy Bogues... Imagination is the only limit for humans. If you have the skill, you can make it work


Exactly, you can make up for size in other sport with skills. There have been great tennis players and basketball players that were not tall. Rod Laver, Michael Chang, Isaiah Thomas, on top of those already named above. Their small size was actually an asset because they could move better. In motorsports there really is no way to make up for being heavier. Completely different dynamic.

The fact Hulk was able to match or beat Perez more often than not on pace tells me that he is the more skilled driver of the two. When they are going to regulate driver weight, it is going to be very interesting to see the pecking order with the drivers.[/quote]

It won't change much. Perhaps a fraction but the FI wasn't overweight so both Perez and Hulk's cars weighed the same. Perez would have more options RE ballast and weight distribution around the car.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:58 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Tell this to Spud Webb or Muggsy Bogues... Imagination is the only limit for humans. If you have the skill, you can make it work


Then you why the need for this new rule then?

There are always exceptions - see Webber, Berger and Wurz. Fact is just about every major sport outside of F1 favours people who are bigger. I never really had a problem redressing that balance ever so slightly. Especially considering unlike other sports that favour larger people you do have other options in professional motor racing even if your size holds you back in F1.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:56 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
With driver weights being ignored Massa gains about 3 tenths on Alonso and then how we view Alonso and Massa is much changed.


Under current rules that's not true unless the car they are driving is over weight.

No but I'm referencing what you said that driver weights should be ignored.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:57 am 
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tootsie323 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Ennis wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Now that you mention jockeys... do you think there should be a minimum weight in horse races as well to not disadvantage non-jockey sized riders?
I don't really care about horse racing, but from what I've seen horse racing is more about the horses with a few elite jockeys able to jump between the good horses from race to race and really it is just an excuse to gamble rather than people becoming emotionally invested or a fan of a specific jockey or horse.

In F1 the drivers are supposed to mean something to people, its who people connect with, and I'd rather we didn't eradicate a whole bunch of talent because tiny people are accidentally quicker.


I'm sure there are plenty of kids who want to become jockeys like their idols only to get their dreams crushed once puberty hits and they grow too large.
Are jockeys idolised that much, I don't know anything about it?
I follow horse racing a little and can tell you that people do become emotionally attached to horses (and jockeys).
In terms of 'ballast' races are either run on level weights or in a handicap, weights allocated according to form. These weights are horse, jockey and kit (saddle, bridle etc) combined. Weights will be placed in the saddle to make up the desired amount.
Mares (female of the species) carry a weight allowance and 'rookie' (known as 'conditional') jockeys can also claim an allowance, I believe, until so many wins (or races, I'm not sure) are registered.
As with F1, the sport will favour the smaller jockey.

Would it be true to say that horses are idolised more than the jockeys?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:03 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Tell this to Spud Webb or Muggsy Bogues... Imagination is the only limit for humans. If you have the skill, you can make it work


Exactly, you can make up for size in other sport with skills. There have been great tennis players and basketball players that were not tall. Rod Laver, Michael Chang, Isaiah Thomas, on top of those already named above. Their small size was actually an asset because they could move better. In motorsports there really is no way to make up for being heavier. Completely different dynamic.

The fact Hulk was able to match or beat Perez more often than not on pace tells me that he is the more skilled driver of the two. When they are going to regulate driver weight, it is going to be very interesting to see the pecking order with the drivers.


It won't change much. Perhaps a fraction but the FI wasn't overweight so both Perez and Hulk's cars weighed the same. Perez would have more options RE ballast and weight distribution around the car.

If that only alone just makes 1 tenth difference then that would tip the scales in the Hulk's favour in 2019.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:07 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Tell this to Spud Webb or Muggsy Bogues... Imagination is the only limit for humans. If you have the skill, you can make it work


Then you why the need for this new rule then?

There are always exceptions - see Webber, Berger and Wurz. Fact is just about every major sport outside of F1 favours people who are bigger. I never really had a problem redressing that balance ever so slightly. Especially considering unlike other sports that favour larger people you do have other options in professional motor racing even if your size holds you back in F1.

It's not just F1 though, like I said before weight ballast starts as soon as you start racing karts at 8 years old, so doing that in F1 is not an exception in itself.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:45 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Tell this to Spud Webb or Muggsy Bogues... Imagination is the only limit for humans. If you have the skill, you can make it work


Then you why the need for this new rule then?

There are always exceptions - see Webber, Berger and Wurz. Fact is just about every major sport outside of F1 favours people who are bigger. I never really had a problem redressing that balance ever so slightly. Especially considering unlike other sports that favour larger people you do have other options in professional motor racing even if your size holds you back in F1.


I'm sorry, again we'll have to disagree. Maradona and Mesi disagree with you. Arguably the best two footballers ever where some of the smallest players in the world. In fact anything that has to do with agility favours (normally) the smaller size people. Hell, have you heard of Naim Suleymanoglu? The biggest weightlifter of his time, the pocket sized Hercules, he was standing proud at 1.46m! And that was in a sport affected directly by technique and raw power. His small stature meant that he had to lift the weights at a lower height. He turned it into an advantage.

Physical attributes are something that helps but are not always a disadvantage/advantage.

The new rule is fairly explanatory I guess:

"The new rule will allow driver weights and car weights to be handled separately by the regulations. This has been deemed necessary because a series of rules changes has increased the minimum weight of F1 cars, meaning taller drivers are increasingly at a disadvantage. The addition of Halo to the 2018 F1 cars has significantly increased the weight of the safety structures around the cockpit."

Not that there was something inherently wrong before the Halo, it just meant that the heavier drivers had less ballast to play with in the car for stability. And in the past taller drivers, like Wilson, had other issues; I remember talking about his height possibly being an obstruction for the top intake of the car.


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