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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:49 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Tell this to Spud Webb or Muggsy Bogues... Imagination is the only limit for humans. If you have the skill, you can make it work


Then you why the need for this new rule then?

There are always exceptions - see Webber, Berger and Wurz. Fact is just about every major sport outside of F1 favours people who are bigger. I never really had a problem redressing that balance ever so slightly. Especially considering unlike other sports that favour larger people you do have other options in professional motor racing even if your size holds you back in F1.


I'm sorry, again we'll have to disagree. Maradona and Mesi disagree with you. Arguably the best two footballers ever where some of the smallest players in the world. In fact anything that has to do with agility favours (normally) the smaller size people. Hell, have you heard of Naim Suleymanoglu? The biggest weightlifter of his time, the pocket sized Hercules, he was standing proud at 1.46m! And that was in a sport affected directly by technique and raw power. His small stature meant that he had to lift the weights at a lower height. He turned it into an advantage.

Physical attributes are something that helps but are not always a disadvantage/advantage.

The new rule is fairly explanatory I guess:

"The new rule will allow driver weights and car weights to be handled separately by the regulations. This has been deemed necessary because a series of rules changes has increased the minimum weight of F1 cars, meaning taller drivers are increasingly at a disadvantage. The addition of Halo to the 2018 F1 cars has significantly increased the weight of the safety structures around the cockpit."

Not that there was something inherently wrong before the Halo, it just meant that the heavier drivers had less ballast to play with in the car for stability. And in the past taller drivers, like Wilson, had other issues; I remember talking about his height possibly being an obstruction for the top intake of the car.


Average height of a top league footballer is higher than the average height of an adult man. There are plenty of 6ft 5inch + footballers but very few 5ft 5inch and under.

Being smaller helps for certain types of footballer but generally you've got more chance of making it if your larger. Why do you think Barcelona gave Messi growth hormones?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:29 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Tell this to Spud Webb or Muggsy Bogues... Imagination is the only limit for humans. If you have the skill, you can make it work


Then you why the need for this new rule then?

There are always exceptions - see Webber, Berger and Wurz. Fact is just about every major sport outside of F1 favours people who are bigger. I never really had a problem redressing that balance ever so slightly. Especially considering unlike other sports that favour larger people you do have other options in professional motor racing even if your size holds you back in F1.


I'm sorry, again we'll have to disagree. Maradona and Mesi disagree with you. Arguably the best two footballers ever where some of the smallest players in the world. In fact anything that has to do with agility favours (normally) the smaller size people. Hell, have you heard of Naim Suleymanoglu? The biggest weightlifter of his time, the pocket sized Hercules, he was standing proud at 1.46m! And that was in a sport affected directly by technique and raw power. His small stature meant that he had to lift the weights at a lower height. He turned it into an advantage.

Physical attributes are something that helps but are not always a disadvantage/advantage.

The new rule is fairly explanatory I guess:

"The new rule will allow driver weights and car weights to be handled separately by the regulations. This has been deemed necessary because a series of rules changes has increased the minimum weight of F1 cars, meaning taller drivers are increasingly at a disadvantage. The addition of Halo to the 2018 F1 cars has significantly increased the weight of the safety structures around the cockpit."

Not that there was something inherently wrong before the Halo, it just meant that the heavier drivers had less ballast to play with in the car for stability. And in the past taller drivers, like Wilson, had other issues; I remember talking about his height possibly being an obstruction for the top intake of the car.


Average height of a top league footballer is higher than the average height of an adult man. There are plenty of 6ft 5inch + footballers but very few 5ft 5inch and under.

Being smaller helps for certain types of footballer but generally you've got more chance of making it if your larger. Why do you think Barcelona gave Messi growth hormones?


Mikey, I don't know how you measured the average height of a top league footballer. Nor the average height of an adult man, as it varies from place to place. But it is around the 1.70-1.80m. There have been players as short as 1.54 that actually made it, like the Brazilian Elton. Ira Murchison was a sprinter that was 1.65m (far below an average sprinter's height), but with an Olympic gold medal to prove his speed.

Spud Web that I mentioned earlier managed to win the NBA dunk contest, against a certain Dominique Wilkins. If you follow basketball at all you will know who these men are and how impressive this feat was.

However this is splitting hair. My point is that you don't have to be the biggest guy to make it. Talent and technique can take athletes a long way.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:49 am 
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No, but being larger helps. Just how in F1 being smaller helps. In the premier league average height is 181cm. I don't see how you can disagree. I'm dealing purely in facts here. In just about all major sports being larger is an advantage. Football is the least extreme I grant you.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:49 am 
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By the way, Messi got hormones as he had a growth disorder in the first place, meaning that he was much shorter and weaker than other kids of his age.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:53 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
By the way, Messi got hormones as he had a growth disorder in the first place, meaning that he was much shorter and weaker than other kids of his age.


The point is that Barca thought he'd do better at 168cm than 150cm.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:39 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
By the way, Messi got hormones as he had a growth disorder in the first place, meaning that he was much shorter and weaker than other kids of his age.


The point is that Barca thought he'd do better at 168cm than 150cm.

The point is that he had a deficiency that was treated. Do they treat all short players in their academy with growth hormones??


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:41 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
By the way, Messi got hormones as he had a growth disorder in the first place, meaning that he was much shorter and weaker than other kids of his age.


The point is that Barca thought he'd do better at 168cm than 150cm.

The point is that he had a deficiency that was treated. Do they treat all short players in their academy with growth hormones??


I don't know.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:49 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
No, but being larger helps. Just how in F1 being smaller helps. In the premier league average height is 181cm. I don't see how you can disagree. I'm dealing purely in facts here. In just about all major sports being larger is an advantage. Football is the least extreme I grant you.


Yes, we agree on this, being bigger helps in some sports, but my point is that it is not the end of all if someone with different physique than what is perceived the normal one for each sport.

Put it this way, it gives an advantage in some areas, but not in others. A tall guy in football will get a header, but may not be as fast to sprint. The tall guy will get a rebound in basketball, but the short guy will run circles around him dribbling.

In F1 they are trying to equalise this with this rule. It is not a bad thing to try to level the field on that respect. It's just easier by nature for this particular sport to play with the weights of the athletes rather than with someone's heights like in basketball for example.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:58 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
By the way, Messi got hormones as he had a growth disorder in the first place, meaning that he was much shorter and weaker than other kids of his age.


The point is that Barca thought he'd do better at 168cm than 150cm.

The point is that he had a deficiency that was treated. Do they treat all short players in their academy with growth hormones??


I don't know.


I do not think they do (not knowing what happens behind closed doors of course!). Xavi for example started from their academy as a kid as well and he is 1.68, shorter than Messi.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:21 pm 
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I think you get my general point though? In big sports outside of F1 you have more chance of making it if your Hulks size than Massa's. For some you are very unlikely to have a chance if you are Massa's size.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:11 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I think you get my general point though? In big sports outside of F1 you have more chance of making it if your Hulks size than Massa's. For some you are very unlikely to have a chance if you are Massa's size.

Yes, I made it clear that being bigger generally helps in some sports.

What I was putting forward is that there are more than enough examples of the opposite as well. In which we seem to agree I think. Hmm, another example, Kyle Hines, the CCKA Moscow center and one of my favourite players, he is only 1.98 tall! I'll stop here, I hope you also get my point!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:14 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Tell this to Spud Webb or Muggsy Bogues... Imagination is the only limit for humans. If you have the skill, you can make it work


Then you why the need for this new rule then?

There are always exceptions - see Webber, Berger and Wurz. Fact is just about every major sport outside of F1 favours people who are bigger. I never really had a problem redressing that balance ever so slightly. Especially considering unlike other sports that favour larger people you do have other options in professional motor racing even if your size holds you back in F1.


I'm sorry, again we'll have to disagree. Maradona and Mesi disagree with you. Arguably the best two footballers ever where some of the smallest players in the world. In fact anything that has to do with agility favours (normally) the smaller size people. Hell, have you heard of Naim Suleymanoglu? The biggest weightlifter of his time, the pocket sized Hercules, he was standing proud at 1.46m! And that was in a sport affected directly by technique and raw power. His small stature meant that he had to lift the weights at a lower height. He turned it into an advantage.

Physical attributes are something that helps but are not always a disadvantage/advantage.

The new rule is fairly explanatory I guess:

"The new rule will allow driver weights and car weights to be handled separately by the regulations. This has been deemed necessary because a series of rules changes has increased the minimum weight of F1 cars, meaning taller drivers are increasingly at a disadvantage. The addition of Halo to the 2018 F1 cars has significantly increased the weight of the safety structures around the cockpit."

Not that there was something inherently wrong before the Halo, it just meant that the heavier drivers had less ballast to play with in the car for stability. And in the past taller drivers, like Wilson, had other issues; I remember talking about his height possibly being an obstruction for the top intake of the car.


Average height of a top league footballer is higher than the average height of an adult man. There are plenty of 6ft 5inch + footballers but very few 5ft 5inch and under.

Being smaller helps for certain types of footballer but generally you've got more chance of making it if your larger. Why do you think Barcelona gave Messi growth hormones?

The average height of the Manchester City football club is 5'11" so it's a sport were an average sized person can compete, do we want F1 to be a sport were an average sized person is at a disadvantage?

With reference to Basketball and Rugby, F1 drivers are basically too small to compete in those sports but then again the reverse is also true with players from these sports being too big to compete in F1.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:19 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
No, but being larger helps. Just how in F1 being smaller helps. In the premier league average height is 181cm. I don't see how you can disagree. I'm dealing purely in facts here. In just about all major sports being larger is an advantage. Football is the least extreme I grant you.

All this doesn't change the fact that the best player in football, Messi, is only 5'7", arguable the best player in the premier league, Eden Hazzard is only 5'8".

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Tell this to Spud Webb or Muggsy Bogues... Imagination is the only limit for humans. If you have the skill, you can make it work


Then you why the need for this new rule then?

There are always exceptions - see Webber, Berger and Wurz. Fact is just about every major sport outside of F1 favours people who are bigger. I never really had a problem redressing that balance ever so slightly. Especially considering unlike other sports that favour larger people you do have other options in professional motor racing even if your size holds you back in F1.


I'm sorry, again we'll have to disagree. Maradona and Mesi disagree with you. Arguably the best two footballers ever where some of the smallest players in the world. In fact anything that has to do with agility favours (normally) the smaller size people. Hell, have you heard of Naim Suleymanoglu? The biggest weightlifter of his time, the pocket sized Hercules, he was standing proud at 1.46m! And that was in a sport affected directly by technique and raw power. His small stature meant that he had to lift the weights at a lower height. He turned it into an advantage.

Physical attributes are something that helps but are not always a disadvantage/advantage.

The new rule is fairly explanatory I guess:

"The new rule will allow driver weights and car weights to be handled separately by the regulations. This has been deemed necessary because a series of rules changes has increased the minimum weight of F1 cars, meaning taller drivers are increasingly at a disadvantage. The addition of Halo to the 2018 F1 cars has significantly increased the weight of the safety structures around the cockpit."

Not that there was something inherently wrong before the Halo, it just meant that the heavier drivers had less ballast to play with in the car for stability. And in the past taller drivers, like Wilson, had other issues; I remember talking about his height possibly being an obstruction for the top intake of the car.


Average height of a top league footballer is higher than the average height of an adult man. There are plenty of 6ft 5inch + footballers but very few 5ft 5inch and under.

Being smaller helps for certain types of footballer but generally you've got more chance of making it if your larger. Why do you think Barcelona gave Messi growth hormones?

The average height of the Manchester City football club is 5'11" so it's a sport were an average sized person can compete, do we want F1 to be a sport were an average sized person is at a disadvantage?

With reference to Basketball and Rugby, F1 drivers are basically too small to compete in those sports but then again the reverse is also true with players from these sports being too big to compete in F1.

But this is exactly what I was talking about Poker. There have been athletes way shorter than the average F1 driver making it in other physical sports, albeit not the norm. Massa is an extreme case indeed, looking at his weight of just 58kg. Having said that, if we want to be fair, then we'd have to assume that athletes would change if they had to enter another series: Massa would/could bulk up if he was to join - say - MMA or another sport!

Then again the average point guard in basketball is 1.88m; Steph Curry is shorter than Justin Wilson or Dan Gurney, so who is saying that he couldn't have an F1 or Indy career?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:52 pm 
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I fully support equalizing drivers concerning weight. This way, talent begins to shine brighter.

I am also concerned that presently some drivers must cut weight, forcing their bodies to have less mass than what is healthy.

Question: if Fangio had been around in this modern era, would he have been too heavy for Formula One?

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http://www.365daysofmotoring.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Untitled.png

Peter Collins was the right size, Fangio too heavy,and Mike Hawthorn too tall. Really, seriously, ponder that fact.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
No, but being larger helps. Just how in F1 being smaller helps. In the premier league average height is 181cm. I don't see how you can disagree. I'm dealing purely in facts here. In just about all major sports being larger is an advantage. Football is the least extreme I grant you.

All this doesn't change the fact that the best player in football, Messi, is only 5'7", arguable the best player in the premier league, Eden Hazzard is only 5'8".


And that doesn't change the fact you're more likely to make it in football being 6ft 5 than 5ft 5. And this is the major sport with the least benefit in being bigger.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:10 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Tell this to Spud Webb or Muggsy Bogues... Imagination is the only limit for humans. If you have the skill, you can make it work


Then you why the need for this new rule then?

There are always exceptions - see Webber, Berger and Wurz. Fact is just about every major sport outside of F1 favours people who are bigger. I never really had a problem redressing that balance ever so slightly. Especially considering unlike other sports that favour larger people you do have other options in professional motor racing even if your size holds you back in F1.


I'm sorry, again we'll have to disagree. Maradona and Mesi disagree with you. Arguably the best two footballers ever where some of the smallest players in the world. In fact anything that has to do with agility favours (normally) the smaller size people. Hell, have you heard of Naim Suleymanoglu? The biggest weightlifter of his time, the pocket sized Hercules, he was standing proud at 1.46m! And that was in a sport affected directly by technique and raw power. His small stature meant that he had to lift the weights at a lower height. He turned it into an advantage.

Physical attributes are something that helps but are not always a disadvantage/advantage.

The new rule is fairly explanatory I guess:

"The new rule will allow driver weights and car weights to be handled separately by the regulations. This has been deemed necessary because a series of rules changes has increased the minimum weight of F1 cars, meaning taller drivers are increasingly at a disadvantage. The addition of Halo to the 2018 F1 cars has significantly increased the weight of the safety structures around the cockpit."

Not that there was something inherently wrong before the Halo, it just meant that the heavier drivers had less ballast to play with in the car for stability. And in the past taller drivers, like Wilson, had other issues; I remember talking about his height possibly being an obstruction for the top intake of the car.


Average height of a top league footballer is higher than the average height of an adult man. There are plenty of 6ft 5inch + footballers but very few 5ft 5inch and under.

Being smaller helps for certain types of footballer but generally you've got more chance of making it if your larger. Why do you think Barcelona gave Messi growth hormones?

The average height of the Manchester City football club is 5'11" so it's a sport were an average sized person can compete, do we want F1 to be a sport were an average sized person is at a disadvantage?

With reference to Basketball and Rugby, F1 drivers are basically too small to compete in those sports but then again the reverse is also true with players from these sports being too big to compete in F1.


So what do Rugby and Basketball do to allow Massa sized people to compete? That's the point.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:16 pm 
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Mikey, you are comparing apples and oranges... Rugby can't do anything, as the players don't use equipment that can affect their physique. F1 has this privilege by it's nature, that's what I said earlier on


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:02 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Tell this to Spud Webb or Muggsy Bogues... Imagination is the only limit for humans. If you have the skill, you can make it work


Then you why the need for this new rule then?

There are always exceptions - see Webber, Berger and Wurz. Fact is just about every major sport outside of F1 favours people who are bigger. I never really had a problem redressing that balance ever so slightly. Especially considering unlike other sports that favour larger people you do have other options in professional motor racing even if your size holds you back in F1.


I'm sorry, again we'll have to disagree. Maradona and Mesi disagree with you. Arguably the best two footballers ever where some of the smallest players in the world. In fact anything that has to do with agility favours (normally) the smaller size people. Hell, have you heard of Naim Suleymanoglu? The biggest weightlifter of his time, the pocket sized Hercules, he was standing proud at 1.46m! And that was in a sport affected directly by technique and raw power. His small stature meant that he had to lift the weights at a lower height. He turned it into an advantage.

Physical attributes are something that helps but are not always a disadvantage/advantage.

The new rule is fairly explanatory I guess:

"The new rule will allow driver weights and car weights to be handled separately by the regulations. This has been deemed necessary because a series of rules changes has increased the minimum weight of F1 cars, meaning taller drivers are increasingly at a disadvantage. The addition of Halo to the 2018 F1 cars has significantly increased the weight of the safety structures around the cockpit."

Not that there was something inherently wrong before the Halo, it just meant that the heavier drivers had less ballast to play with in the car for stability. And in the past taller drivers, like Wilson, had other issues; I remember talking about his height possibly being an obstruction for the top intake of the car.


Average height of a top league footballer is higher than the average height of an adult man. There are plenty of 6ft 5inch + footballers but very few 5ft 5inch and under.

Being smaller helps for certain types of footballer but generally you've got more chance of making it if your larger. Why do you think Barcelona gave Messi growth hormones?


Mikey, I don't know how you measured the average height of a top league footballer. Nor the average height of an adult man, as it varies from place to place. But it is around the 1.70-1.80m. There have been players as short as 1.54 that actually made it, like the Brazilian Elton. Ira Murchison was a sprinter that was 1.65m (far below an average sprinter's height), but with an Olympic gold medal to prove his speed.

Spud Web that I mentioned earlier managed to win the NBA dunk contest, against a certain Dominique Wilkins. If you follow basketball at all you will know who these men are and how impressive this feat was.

However this is splitting hair. My point is that you don't have to be the biggest guy to make it. Talent and technique can take athletes a long way.



5'6 Spud Webb



Or 5'3 Muggsy Bouges





Agreed Siao7, if you have the talent, athleticism and the will to push yourself when others tell you that you cant make it nothing will stop you. Raw talent is just that, it cant be taken away from you. Does height/ physic play a major role in many sports and recreation yes but for every occasion there is a prime example of someone who defied the odds.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:19 pm 
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And the same applies I'm F1 now. See Berger, Wurz or Webber.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:23 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Mikey, you are comparing apples and oranges... Rugby can't do anything, as the players don't use equipment that can affect their physique. F1 has this privilege by it's nature, that's what I said earlier on


I agree really. I'm just playing devils advocate. It just feels a little unfair to me that the only major sports that favours a smaller person is being equalised. If you're born Massa sized then realistically there are very few major sports you can compete in. And yes I know there are exceptions and out liers but being realistic about it that is the case.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:17 am 
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Re Messi (and Hazard was also mentioned, I believe) - it's worth noting that, as well as the raw talent they have, the smaller the player is the larger the ball is proportionally. This makes it easier to control / dribble. Not sure whether that will translate to other ball games, and not altogether sure just how relevant it is! Just wanted to put it out there.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:16 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Mikey, you are comparing apples and oranges... Rugby can't do anything, as the players don't use equipment that can affect their physique. F1 has this privilege by it's nature, that's what I said earlier on


I agree really. I'm just playing devils advocate. It just feels a little unfair to me that the only major sports that favours a smaller person is being equalised. If you're born Massa sized then realistically there are very few major sports you can compete in. And yes I know there are exceptions and out liers but being realistic about it that is the case.


I see what you mean, but this was always an issue in F1, albeit a small one. Being 58 kg like Massa is amazing, imagine saving 16kg (compared to Hulk's 74kg listed weight) in the car. This is a sport that they are shaving grams from everywhere, the advantage that Massa or Sato, or others had was very big. Remember Rosberg recently listed as one of the reasons for beating Hamilton in that BBC video that he changed gloves as the bloody seam was annoying him!!! Every little thing helps in F1 and 16 kgs is massive.

Other sports can't do that, as they are 95% athlete and 5% equipment (figures out of my backside, but I don't believe the racket plays better tennis that Federer!). In F1 and the 30-70 car-driver rule (or even less nowadays), this is completely different. The equipment always played the biggest role in the sport and since they have a chance to correct something, they have. Kudos to them.

I look at it as taking away an advantage that was unfair in the first place, not just wanting to punish the smaller drivers.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:50 pm 
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Look at it another way and F1 is already quite an exclusive sport based on the resources required to get into it. Perhaps not a bad thing to remove some of the barriers and open it up a bit. Won’t even be an issue in 5 years’ time – will be interesting to see what impact this has on the current drivers relative pace though, at least as far as can be established given the other variables.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:33 pm 
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I think it's a good plan. Make sure that the driver portion is high enough to be reasonable and not to require drivers to be starved in order to make the weight...

Hopefully the FIA can then look at whether or not they can reduce the weight of the cars by themselves without the driver weight needing to be changed much.

Overall for me it's a good thing but I don't see it is as a massive deal.


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