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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 10:10 am 
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FIA the is week seeming to allow development of mirrors on the halo (which will just make the cars look even more daft). Given the amount of vibration on the mirrors watching the last race at Azerbaijan, why don't F1 cars have rear cameras with heat vision which might be useful in rain / spray as well as radio sensors to detect how close the car behind is and which direction they are?

One could mount the screen on the centre of the halo facing the driver. Multiple cameras could be selected by the driver giving 360 vision. Screen could also be used to display timings, race order, track positions, pit requests, telemetry, safety car and accidents on map etc.


Last edited by pendulumeffect on Wed May 02, 2018 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 10:31 am 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
FIA the is week seeming to allow development of mirrors on the halo (which will just make the cars look even more daft). Given the amount of vibration on the mirrors watching the last race at Azerbaijan, why don't F1 cars have rear cameras with heat vision which might be useful in rain / spray as well as radio sensors to detect how close the car behind is and which direction they are?

I see where you are going with this, but in my opinion it is getting too much if they get proximity sensors. Takes out the driver instinct. Better than taking out another driver I guess, but all the more these cars are becoming less driver/more technology & car. I think there should be no driver aids of any kind, not even radio comms (except for emergency).


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:54 am 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
FIA the is week seeming to allow development of mirrors on the halo (which will just make the cars look even more daft). Given the amount of vibration on the mirrors watching the last race at Azerbaijan, why don't F1 cars have rear cameras with heat vision which might be useful in rain / spray as well as radio sensors to detect how close the car behind is and which direction they are?

How about making it that they should also be mounted to the halo rather than instead of, making sure that each attachment is capable of being able to do the job alone.
This would stiffen up the mirrors and should reduce vibration...


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 9:47 pm 
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I see where ur going with the idea as far as adding more tech to the cars but as sio7 stated your putting more aids that take away from the craft that is a driver and managing your surroundings unaided...

Also drivers have more then enough things to to do as it on the steering wheel alone. Adding a monitor with infrared and asking them to focus on a screen going 200 mph is asking for disaster. Heck guys are crashing following the safety car during the day in dry conditions

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 9:54 pm 
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Probably would not have helped in this case as supposedly Marcus' mirrors were useless from excessive vibration, but lower profile rear wings and lower rear wings would probably make it easier to see what's behind you.


Last edited by Mort Canard on Tue May 01, 2018 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 10:01 pm 
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Cameras are at least 1/60th of a second behind realtime. That's ok as a delay when you are reversing, but not at F1 speeds.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 12:07 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Cameras are at least 1/60th of a second behind realtime. That's ok as a delay when you are reversing, but not at F1 speeds.


Yeah but there are relatively at the same speed.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 12:16 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
pendulumeffect wrote:
FIA the is week seeming to allow development of mirrors on the halo (which will just make the cars look even more daft). Given the amount of vibration on the mirrors watching the last race at Azerbaijan, why don't F1 cars have rear cameras with heat vision which might be useful in rain / spray as well as radio sensors to detect how close the car behind is and which direction they are?

I see where you are going with this, but in my opinion it is getting too much if they get proximity sensors. Takes out the driver instinct. Better than taking out another driver I guess, but all the more these cars are becoming less driver/more technology & car. I think there should be no driver aids of any kind, not even radio comms (except for emergency).


Being able to look behind is a normal thing in many other motorsport categories. It is not desirable to be unable to see opponents if you want wheel to wheel racing. 360 degree vision is going to eliminate luck not skill. You still need the skill to use it efficiently.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 12:16 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
pendulumeffect wrote:
FIA the is week seeming to allow development of mirrors on the halo (which will just make the cars look even more daft). Given the amount of vibration on the mirrors watching the last race at Azerbaijan, why don't F1 cars have rear cameras with heat vision which might be useful in rain / spray as well as radio sensors to detect how close the car behind is and which direction they are?

I see where you are going with this, but in my opinion it is getting too much if they get proximity sensors. Takes out the driver instinct. Better than taking out another driver I guess, but all the more these cars are becoming less driver/more technology & car. I think there should be no driver aids of any kind, not even radio comms (except for emergency).


Being able to look behind is a normal thing in many other motorsport categories. It is not desirable to be unable to see opponents if you want wheel to wheel racing. 360 degree vision is going to eliminate luck not skill. You still need the skill to use it efficiently.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 7:08 am 
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Parking sensors perhaps?
How about collision prevention systems? Grosjean about drive around under safety car then?

Perhaps pilot assist so the driver can take a break?


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:24 am 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pendulumeffect wrote:
FIA the is week seeming to allow development of mirrors on the halo (which will just make the cars look even more daft). Given the amount of vibration on the mirrors watching the last race at Azerbaijan, why don't F1 cars have rear cameras with heat vision which might be useful in rain / spray as well as radio sensors to detect how close the car behind is and which direction they are?

I see where you are going with this, but in my opinion it is getting too much if they get proximity sensors. Takes out the driver instinct. Better than taking out another driver I guess, but all the more these cars are becoming less driver/more technology & car. I think there should be no driver aids of any kind, not even radio comms (except for emergency).


Being able to look behind is a normal thing in many other motorsport categories. It is not desirable to be unable to see opponents if you want wheel to wheel racing. 360 degree vision is going to eliminate luck not skill. You still need the skill to use it efficiently.

You have a point, but I am just not really buying into it. They have mirrors to look behind. Not perfect, but this is how it is, maybe they can design them better to eliminate vibrations.

What other motorosport categories use cameras? Real question as I am not following other motorsport other than F1 really. I know go karts or superbikes don't even have mirrors and you can't go more wheel to wheel than that. It is not a given that mirrors give you a better race or something, is it?


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 9:20 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
pendulumeffect wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pendulumeffect wrote:
FIA the is week seeming to allow development of mirrors on the halo (which will just make the cars look even more daft). Given the amount of vibration on the mirrors watching the last race at Azerbaijan, why don't F1 cars have rear cameras with heat vision which might be useful in rain / spray as well as radio sensors to detect how close the car behind is and which direction they are?

I see where you are going with this, but in my opinion it is getting too much if they get proximity sensors. Takes out the driver instinct. Better than taking out another driver I guess, but all the more these cars are becoming less driver/more technology & car. I think there should be no driver aids of any kind, not even radio comms (except for emergency).


Being able to look behind is a normal thing in many other motorsport categories. It is not desirable to be unable to see opponents if you want wheel to wheel racing. 360 degree vision is going to eliminate luck not skill. You still need the skill to use it efficiently.

You have a point, but I am just not really buying into it. They have mirrors to look behind. Not perfect, but this is how it is, maybe they can design them better to eliminate vibrations.

What other motorosport categories use cameras? Real question as I am not following other motorsport other than F1 really. I know go karts or superbikes don't even have mirrors and you can't go more wheel to wheel than that. It is not a given that mirrors give you a better race or something, is it?


Superbikes and karts don't need cameras because one simply turns your head to look behind. One could still do that in early F1 cars like the Jim Clark era before the airbox and rear wing evolved and they had great overtaking. Cameras would just negate the modern safety and performance features obstructing vision.


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 4:36 pm 
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If the mirrors do not work, then fix the mirrors.

Adding another layer of technology between the driver and his environment is adding one more thing that can go wrong. It is also extra cost, adds weight, and is no guarantee that the driver is better able to discern his environment any better. Fix the mirrors, give the drivers better visibility.

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 11:37 am 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pendulumeffect wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pendulumeffect wrote:
FIA the is week seeming to allow development of mirrors on the halo (which will just make the cars look even more daft). Given the amount of vibration on the mirrors watching the last race at Azerbaijan, why don't F1 cars have rear cameras with heat vision which might be useful in rain / spray as well as radio sensors to detect how close the car behind is and which direction they are?

I see where you are going with this, but in my opinion it is getting too much if they get proximity sensors. Takes out the driver instinct. Better than taking out another driver I guess, but all the more these cars are becoming less driver/more technology & car. I think there should be no driver aids of any kind, not even radio comms (except for emergency).


Being able to look behind is a normal thing in many other motorsport categories. It is not desirable to be unable to see opponents if you want wheel to wheel racing. 360 degree vision is going to eliminate luck not skill. You still need the skill to use it efficiently.

You have a point, but I am just not really buying into it. They have mirrors to look behind. Not perfect, but this is how it is, maybe they can design them better to eliminate vibrations.

What other motorosport categories use cameras? Real question as I am not following other motorsport other than F1 really. I know go karts or superbikes don't even have mirrors and you can't go more wheel to wheel than that. It is not a given that mirrors give you a better race or something, is it?


Superbikes and karts don't need cameras because one simply turns your head to look behind. One could still do that in early F1 cars like the Jim Clark era before the airbox and rear wing evolved and they had great overtaking. Cameras would just negate the modern safety and performance features obstructing vision.


Yes, the ability to turn the head is there, I wonder though if you have ever tried it? I went karting recently and it is not easy to do it. Let alone in a competitive environment at far higher speeds than the indoor go kart track here. Try something else, try cycling and turning your head to look behind, see how that works for you. You can't maintain a straight line, not easily. In theory you can, in real life it is not really as easy as that.

But turning the head is not the issue really, cameras are. Are there other motorsports that use cameras? I don't know frankly. I do agree with Blinky, the easiest thing to do is fix the mirrors, maybe make it mandatory that two points of fixing on the car are needed, something like that


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 12:10 pm 
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It's difficult to write the rules for racing, because the driver ahead has very limited awareness of where exactly the attacking driver's car is - at every moment in time.
To require the lead driver to assess if the car behind will have an overlap by the time the driver in front moves to a particular place on the track would require the driver in front to have a tracking vertical view of the two cars and the area around and in front of them, and be watching it continuously.

Trying to restrict the defensive movements of the driver in front does improve the chances of an overtake - but it also makes the racing more predictable and safer.
Leaving a space wide enough for the other car at the edge of the track is one way of restricting the leading driver, and limiting the changes of direction is another.

It does change the type of racing we have seen in F1, but I think it is fairer than the dodgems system of defence or the easing the other car off the track defence.
It is also a system that is doable with effective rear view mirrors.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 9:08 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
But turning the head is not the issue really, cameras are. Are there other motorsports that use cameras? I don't know frankly. I do agree with Blinky, the easiest thing to do is fix the mirrors, maybe make it mandatory that two points of fixing on the car are needed, something like that

Some GT cars definitely do (the Corvette is the one I'm thinking of, but I'm sure others have it as well) including elaborate systems that will flag a prototype a different color so the driver knows that they're not fighting for position and can let the LMP car through quickly.

Honestly, I think the mirrors are good enough - drivers with good spacial awareness don't seem to have any problems.

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 12:16 am 
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Cameras serve a purpose in mixed class endurance racing where faster cars tend to surprise relatively slower cars. That is not what is happening in F1. Those video systems are also supplemental to the side mirrors, not replacing.

A driver needs a side mirror near his line of sight as he looks toward his next apex. It is normal to monitor the inside mirror as the driver is picking up his apex with his eyes. Though I do agree that there should be some standards in regards to mirror vibrations on the grounds of safety.

The recent VER and MAG incidents were not caused by a lack of rear vision, they were caused by egos.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 8:39 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
But turning the head is not the issue really, cameras are. Are there other motorsports that use cameras? I don't know frankly. I do agree with Blinky, the easiest thing to do is fix the mirrors, maybe make it mandatory that two points of fixing on the car are needed, something like that

Some GT cars definitely do (the Corvette is the one I'm thinking of, but I'm sure others have it as well) including elaborate systems that will flag a prototype a different color so the driver knows that they're not fighting for position and can let the LMP car through quickly.

Honestly, I think the mirrors are good enough - drivers with good spacial awareness don't seem to have any problems.


Thank Exediron, sounds like a good system for Le Mans, but not sure about F1. I agree with ETM3 above in what he says


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