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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:48 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
It's really unfortunate for (team name here) who not only lost half of day two and all of day three, but have been limited to (very low number here) laps today because of a (part of the car here) problem.

(Thought I'd type this out now for easy editing later today).

Hehe :twisted: :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:10 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I think McLaren have been incompetent since the 20th century ended. It's like they're the only corporate entity that were actually hit by the millennium bug and they've never been able to shake it off


Erm, they were able to fight the exceptional Schumacher-Ferrari combo in 2000 and 2003, despite having inferior drivers to Schumacher. They were the fastest car in 2005, but again with the inferior drivers. In 2007 and 2008, they were behind Ferrari, but their better drivers got them a championship. Close to winning the WDC in 2010, maybe the joint-fastest car in 2012. I've never liked McLaren, but if this is your definition of incompetency in the 21st century for McLaren, then :lol:

How many titles did they win?

I don't think Mercedes winning the last four on the trot means that everybody else is incompetent.

I thought we were just talking about McLaren?

If them not winning titles is an indicator of incompetence, then why does that apply only to them?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:15 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
How many titles did they win?

I don't think Mercedes winning the last four on the trot means that everybody else is incompetent.

I thought we were just talking about McLaren?


If the measure of competence is titles then everyone but Mercedes has been incompetent obviously.

The measure of competence isn't titles. But it can't be denied that McLaren have been serial underachievers throughout the 21st century. Despite all the years they have had the fastest cars and the best drivers, they have one WDC to their name in all that time. A WDC that was a fumbling bellyflop over the finish line

Highlighting the number of years they've fought for and lost championships does not make for good reading

The drivers play a big part in that. If not for Schumacher, Ferrari would arguably be just as "incompetent" as McLaren.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:17 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't think Mercedes winning the last four on the trot means that everybody else is incompetent.

I thought we were just talking about McLaren?


If the measure of competence is titles then everyone but Mercedes has been incompetent obviously.

The measure of competence isn't titles. But it can't be denied that McLaren have been serial underachievers throughout the 21st century. Despite all the years they have had the fastest cars and the best drivers, they have one WDC to their name in all that time. A WDC that was a fumbling bellyflop over the finish line

Highlighting the number of years they've fought for and lost championships does not make for good reading

Yes this is the point I was making. :thumbup:

But linking it to incompetence makes a very different point. Not winning titles is not a measure of incompetence


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:20 am 
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Zoue wrote:
The drivers play a big part in that. If not for Schumacher, Ferrari would arguably be just as "incompetent" as McLaren.


I agree. Seasons like 00, 01,03 and 07 could have been won with better driving performance, but I guess a driver is still part of the team?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:50 am 
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Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't think Mercedes winning the last four on the trot means that everybody else is incompetent.

I thought we were just talking about McLaren?


If the measure of competence is titles then everyone but Mercedes has been incompetent obviously.

The measure of competence isn't titles. But it can't be denied that McLaren have been serial underachievers throughout the 21st century. Despite all the years they have had the fastest cars and the best drivers, they have one WDC to their name in all that time. A WDC that was a fumbling bellyflop over the finish line

Highlighting the number of years they've fought for and lost championships does not make for good reading

The drivers play a big part in that. If not for Schumacher, Ferrari would arguably be just as "incompetent" as McLaren.

That's only guesswork. McLaren have legit had the fastest cars and best drivers and have damn all silverware to show for it. Ferrari actually won with their fast cars and top drivers

Why is it that drivers like Raikkonen, Hamilton, Alonso, Button had their greatest successes somewhere else?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:04 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I thought we were just talking about McLaren?


If the measure of competence is titles then everyone but Mercedes has been incompetent obviously.

The measure of competence isn't titles. But it can't be denied that McLaren have been serial underachievers throughout the 21st century. Despite all the years they have had the fastest cars and the best drivers, they have one WDC to their name in all that time. A WDC that was a fumbling bellyflop over the finish line

Highlighting the number of years they've fought for and lost championships does not make for good reading

The drivers play a big part in that. If not for Schumacher, Ferrari would arguably be just as "incompetent" as McLaren.

That's only guesswork. McLaren have legit had the fastest cars and best drivers and have damn all silverware to show for it. Ferrari actually won with their fast cars and top drivers

Why is it that drivers like Raikkonen, Hamilton, Alonso, Button had their greatest successes somewhere else?

well, that's why I put "arguably." If you feel that without Schumacher Ferrari would have had identical results , then that raises the question of whether any team should bother getting a top driver anyway.

Regarding Alonso and Hamilton, I think it's a tad unfair to blame McLaren for the fact that both drivers threw their toys out of the pram and messed up the title chances for the team in 2007. You can lead a horse to water, and all that. Button had his success when he had a dominant car (at least for the first half of the season). He's not done better before or since, so how is that down to McLaren's incompetence?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying McLaren couldn't have done better at any point. But no more than Ferrari in 2010 and 2012 (and 2017, come to think of it). I just think accusations of incompetence are a bit strong when titles are often decided by the smallest of margins


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:06 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
The drivers play a big part in that. If not for Schumacher, Ferrari would arguably be just as "incompetent" as McLaren.


I agree. Seasons like 00, 01,03 and 07 could have been won with better driving performance, but I guess a driver is still part of the team?

sure, but it's a bit unfair to blame the team when the driver messes up IMO. Generally people view them as two distinct entities, anyway


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:45 pm 
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Random question: since testing was limited to just one car per team, is there a record for most laps completed in a single day?

With the teams so desperate to make up laps today, and there being no break for lunch, I guess we could see teams getting towards 150.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:16 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
If the measure of competence is titles then everyone but Mercedes has been incompetent obviously.

The measure of competence isn't titles. But it can't be denied that McLaren have been serial underachievers throughout the 21st century. Despite all the years they have had the fastest cars and the best drivers, they have one WDC to their name in all that time. A WDC that was a fumbling bellyflop over the finish line

Highlighting the number of years they've fought for and lost championships does not make for good reading

The drivers play a big part in that. If not for Schumacher, Ferrari would arguably be just as "incompetent" as McLaren.

That's only guesswork. McLaren have legit had the fastest cars and best drivers and have damn all silverware to show for it. Ferrari actually won with their fast cars and top drivers

Why is it that drivers like Raikkonen, Hamilton, Alonso, Button had their greatest successes somewhere else?

well, that's why I put "arguably." If you feel that without Schumacher Ferrari would have had identical results , then that raises the question of whether any team should bother getting a top driver anyway.

Regarding Alonso and Hamilton, I think it's a tad unfair to blame McLaren for the fact that both drivers threw their toys out of the pram and messed up the title chances for the team in 2007. You can lead a horse to water, and all that. Button had his success when he had a dominant car (at least for the first half of the season). He's not done better before or since, so how is that down to McLaren's incompetence?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying McLaren couldn't have done better at any point. But no more than Ferrari in 2010 and 2012 (and 2017, come to think of it). I just think accusations of incompetence are a bit strong when titles are often decided by the smallest of margins

Who knows if another top driver wouldn't have won those titles in Schumacher's cars? What we do know is that once Schumacher left, Ferrari won again with someone else. Someone who was let down by McLaren

I absolutely do blame Ron Dennis and the mismanagement of his 2007 drivers for costing his team both titles and $100m. The whole thing was a shambles, from the top down

Of course you can point to the specific reasons why those drivers succeeded when/where they did. But the common theme is a McLaren team that promised so much and failed to achieve, despite the speed of their machinery. The list is longer than just the champs. Montoya had his best days somewhere else. Perez had his best days somewhere else

McLaren's 21st century to date reads like a list of sporting horror stories. Fast cars falling apart, multiple agonising defeats, record fines, driver infighting, Ron falling out with a lengthy list of drivers, falling out with Mercedes, falling out with sponsors, the entire Honda nightmare, Adrian Newey mismanaged within an inch of his sanity... at a certain point people start asking "How come this stuff happens to McLaren more than anyone else?"

Being an Alonso fan is hard enough. I'm glad I'm not a fan of the team as I can only endure so much torture

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:33 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
If them not winning titles is an indicator of incompetence, then why does that apply only to them?

Because McLaren have until relatively recently always been competitive and capable of winning races.

In 2005 McLaren had:

Adrian Newey as their chief designer
Works Mercedes support
Fernando Alonso signed on a pre-contract
Lewis Hamilton as a young academy driver

They should have absolutely dominated the last decade of the sport. Instead, due to poor management, Newey left and Alonso had quit by the end of 2007. Mercedes pulled their works support in 2009 and Hamilton grew sick and tired of McLaren's incompetence and left in 2012. All of which has led to the debacle of the last 5 years.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:39 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
The measure of competence isn't titles. But it can't be denied that McLaren have been serial underachievers throughout the 21st century. Despite all the years they have had the fastest cars and the best drivers, they have one WDC to their name in all that time. A WDC that was a fumbling bellyflop over the finish line

Highlighting the number of years they've fought for and lost championships does not make for good reading

The drivers play a big part in that. If not for Schumacher, Ferrari would arguably be just as "incompetent" as McLaren.

That's only guesswork. McLaren have legit had the fastest cars and best drivers and have damn all silverware to show for it. Ferrari actually won with their fast cars and top drivers

Why is it that drivers like Raikkonen, Hamilton, Alonso, Button had their greatest successes somewhere else?

well, that's why I put "arguably." If you feel that without Schumacher Ferrari would have had identical results , then that raises the question of whether any team should bother getting a top driver anyway.

Regarding Alonso and Hamilton, I think it's a tad unfair to blame McLaren for the fact that both drivers threw their toys out of the pram and messed up the title chances for the team in 2007. You can lead a horse to water, and all that. Button had his success when he had a dominant car (at least for the first half of the season). He's not done better before or since, so how is that down to McLaren's incompetence?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying McLaren couldn't have done better at any point. But no more than Ferrari in 2010 and 2012 (and 2017, come to think of it). I just think accusations of incompetence are a bit strong when titles are often decided by the smallest of margins

Who knows if another top driver wouldn't have won those titles in Schumacher's cars? What we do know is that once Schumacher left, Ferrari won again with someone else. Someone who was let down by McLaren

I absolutely do blame Ron Dennis and the mismanagement of his 2007 drivers for costing his team both titles and $100m. The whole thing was a shambles, from the top down

Of course you can point to the specific reasons why those drivers succeeded when/where they did. But the common theme is a McLaren team that promised so much and failed to achieve, despite the speed of their machinery. The list is longer than just the champs. Montoya had his best days somewhere else. Perez had his best days somewhere else

McLaren's 21st century to date reads like a list of sporting horror stories. Fast cars falling apart, multiple agonising defeats, record fines, driver infighting, Ron falling out with a lengthy list of drivers, falling out with Mercedes, falling out with sponsors, the entire Honda nightmare, Adrian Newey mismanaged within an inch of his sanity... at a certain point people start asking "How come this stuff happens to McLaren more than anyone else?"

Being an Alonso fan is hard enough. I'm glad I'm not a fan of the team as I can only endure so much torture

what exactly are you arguing about here? I put "arguably." That means it's at least up for discussion.

Every team, other than Mercedes and Red Bull, have failed to deliver anything in more than a decade. Does that make them all incompetent? Mercedes didn't win a thing before 2014 - were they incompetent before that? Are Red Bull suddenly incompetent, despite always having had at least one top driver?

I don't see how you can blame Ron for the fact that both his drivers in 2007 behaved like total dicks. The finger of blame for that year should be pointed squarely at those in the driving seats, nobody else.

I'd agree that Ron couldn't move with the times and him falling out with sponsors and staff the way he did at the end is a major black mark. There again, his management style is the main reason McLaren rose to the successes they did in the first place. Losing Newey was a major misjudgment, for sure. But how can he possibly be blamed for Honda's woes? That seems reaching, to me. How's he supposed to know that a company like Honda couldn't design a PU?

And given Kimi's relatively lacklustre performances since leaving McLaren - and I include his title year in that, as he only won it because Lewis and Fernando messed up big time - I'd argue that McLaren actually brought out the best in him and got more performance out of him than anyone else. Sure, they may have messed up in 2012, but it's somewhat ironic that the only team with a worse record of failures that year was Mercedes, and look at them now.

Bottom line is that every team makes mistakes at some point. McLaren were a damn good team for years and the rot actually started when Ron left the team initially, not after he returned. Or before, for that matter. He built that team and McLaren owe him a lot. He's absolutely not perfect, but I don't think he deserves to be called incompetent. Not after everything he's done


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:52 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Zoue wrote:
If them not winning titles is an indicator of incompetence, then why does that apply only to them?

Because McLaren have until relatively recently always been competitive and capable of winning races.

In 2005 McLaren had:

Adrian Newey as their chief designer
Works Mercedes support
Fernando Alonso signed on a pre-contract
Lewis Hamilton as a young academy driver

They should have absolutely dominated the last decade of the sport. Instead, due to poor management, Newey left and Alonso had quit by the end of 2007. Mercedes pulled their works support in 2009 and Hamilton grew sick and tired of McLaren's incompetence and left in 2012. All of which has led to the debacle of the last 5 years.

Newey left because he felt stifled. I'd agree that was Ron's fault and he shouldn't have allowed it to happen. However, it baffles me how anyone could blame Alonso leaving on anyone but Alonso. Nobody forced Alonso to behave like a total douchebag that year.

As for losing Mercedes, that was out of McLaren's control. Mercedes bought a Championship-winning team for a bargain basement $100M (reportedly), which effectively demoted McLaren to supplier status. It was a very cheap way for Mercedes to form their own Works team. Was Ron supposed to give his team away?

As I've mentioned before, it's ironic that Hamilton chose to leave McLaren, allegedly because of losing patience with their incompetence, only to join the only team with a worse record in that department in 2012. Which raises questions as to whether that was even a factor at all.

I'm curious whether anyone considers red Bull to be incompetent, since they haven't won a bean in four years, despite having the same management and engine supplier in that time. Renault were rubbish in the last few years and must be thanking their lucky stars that Honda took the limelight away from their own inadequacies. Does that make CH incompetent, too?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:03 pm 
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Red Bull have won races in 3 of the last 4 seasons despite being at an engine disadvantage, which is not within their control.

Losing top personnel and your engine supplier (who owned 50% of the team) due to your management style is worse.

edit: having said that, the non-existent relationship between Renault and Red Bull is down to incompetent management.


Last edited by GingerFurball on Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:04 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Who knows if another top driver wouldn't have won those titles in Schumacher's cars? What we do know is that once Schumacher left, Ferrari won again with someone else. Someone who was let down by McLaren

I absolutely do blame Ron Dennis and the mismanagement of his 2007 drivers for costing his team both titles and $100m. The whole thing was a shambles, from the top down

Of course you can point to the specific reasons why those drivers succeeded when/where they did. But the common theme is a McLaren team that promised so much and failed to achieve, despite the speed of their machinery. The list is longer than just the champs. Montoya had his best days somewhere else. Perez had his best days somewhere else

McLaren's 21st century to date reads like a list of sporting horror stories. Fast cars falling apart, multiple agonising defeats, record fines, driver infighting, Ron falling out with a lengthy list of drivers, falling out with Mercedes, falling out with sponsors, the entire Honda nightmare, Adrian Newey mismanaged within an inch of his sanity... at a certain point people start asking "How come this stuff happens to McLaren more than anyone else?"

Being an Alonso fan is hard enough. I'm glad I'm not a fan of the team as I can only endure so much torture



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:26 pm 
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I know it's early days, but....


1 Vandoorne McLaren 1m19.854s
2 Hamilton Mercedes 1m19.984s
3 Vettel Ferrari 1m20.692s
4 Sainz Renault 1m20.940s
5 Alonso McLaren 1m21.113s


Sainz is faster than Alonso despite being on mediums, and only a second off Vandoorne's hypersoft time.

I'm starting to worry that this McLaren is slow. I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise so far...


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Centauri wrote:
I know it's early days, but....


1 Vandoorne McLaren 1m19.854s
2 Hamilton Mercedes 1m19.984s
3 Vettel Ferrari 1m20.692s
4 Sainz Renault 1m20.940s
5 Alonso McLaren 1m21.113s


Sainz is faster than Alonso despite being on mediums, and only a second off Vandoorne's hypersoft time.

I'm starting to worry that this McLaren is slow. I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise so far...


How frustrating would it be for McLaren to have had the money to develop a good chassis thanks to partnering with Honda, but not be competitive because of Honda's engine -- then once they're freed from Honda, they don't have the budget to build as fast a car?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:05 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Red Bull have won races in 3 of the last 4 seasons despite being at an engine disadvantage, which is not within their control.

Losing top personnel and your engine supplier (who owned 50% of the team) due to your management style is worse.

edit: having said that, the non-existent relationship between Renault and Red Bull is down to incompetent management.

Except it’s not true. I’ve not seen anything that says Mercedes left McLarenbecause of Ron’s management style


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:47 pm 
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Toro Rosso Honda are lapping so many laps. Is it a coincidence that Honda's become so reliable after splitting with McLaren or 4th year was the lucky charm & McLaren just made a bad decision to split with Honda as Honda found the magic trick of reliability?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:47 pm 
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You wouldn't.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:30 pm 
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It does look like the McLaren is struggling. The Mercedes was very strong today with Hamilton putting that lap in on the medium tyre

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:38 pm 
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Very little running for Red Bull. I'm fearing another slow start from them this season.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:50 pm 
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Mercedes do look frighteningly strong being faster on a slower tyre! Hope its not a runaway season!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:24 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Toro Rosso Honda are lapping so many laps. Is it a coincidence that Honda's become so reliable after splitting with McLaren or 4th year was the lucky charm & McLaren just made a bad decision to split with Honda as Honda found the magic trick of reliability?


We shall see. Honda has to prove that it has also made huge strides in the power department if we are to believe Mclaren made a mistake by dumping them. I'm not so sure of that. I think when we get to Melbourne, we will see Honda at the bottom of the trap speeds again.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:27 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Mercedes do look frighteningly strong being faster on a slower tyre! Hope its not a runaway season!


Yeah everyone's gonna say too early... Testing.. cold temps blah blah blah but I have a nagging feeling it'll be another year of watching Hamilton take a stroll to the championship. McLaren look.. disappointing. And Honda ... Wtf?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:28 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Toro Rosso Honda are lapping so many laps. Is it a coincidence that Honda's become so reliable after splitting with McLaren or 4th year was the lucky charm & McLaren just made a bad decision to split with Honda as Honda found the magic trick of reliability?


We shall see. Honda has to prove that it has also made huge strides in the power department if we are to believe Mclaren made a mistake by dumping them. I'm not so sure of that. I think when we get to Melbourne, we will see Honda at the bottom of the trap speeds again.


My prediction was that they'd be reliable but slow, ultimately forcing Red Bull to stay with Renault for another year, and I think that'll stand true. Given the increased importance of reliability, and the other engine manufacturers all sacrificing performance for reliability, I think it would be almost unreasonable to expect Honda to not only increase reliability but also find more performance.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:47 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Toro Rosso Honda are lapping so many laps. Is it a coincidence that Honda's become so reliable after splitting with McLaren or 4th year was the lucky charm & McLaren just made a bad decision to split with Honda as Honda found the magic trick of reliability?


We shall see. Honda has to prove that it has also made huge strides in the power department if we are to believe Mclaren made a mistake by dumping them. I'm not so sure of that. I think when we get to Melbourne, we will see Honda at the bottom of the trap speeds again.



What i find worrying is Mclaren is deafeningly quiet about how much more power they have.
I was expecting them to be singing praises about how much more shove they getting off the straight, jumping up and down like its their first time in a rollercoaster.
Positive at least they found good number of laps today, so maybe things are on the up


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:06 pm 
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AravJ wrote:
kleefton wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Toro Rosso Honda are lapping so many laps. Is it a coincidence that Honda's become so reliable after splitting with McLaren or 4th year was the lucky charm & McLaren just made a bad decision to split with Honda as Honda found the magic trick of reliability?


We shall see. Honda has to prove that it has also made huge strides in the power department if we are to believe Mclaren made a mistake by dumping them. I'm not so sure of that. I think when we get to Melbourne, we will see Honda at the bottom of the trap speeds again.



What i find worrying is Mclaren is deafeningly quiet about how much more power they have.
I was expecting them to be singing praises about how much more shove they getting off the straight, jumping up and down like its their first time in a rollercoaster.
Positive at least they found good number of laps today, so maybe things are on the up


You might get that sort of talk once they've done quali or the race in Melbourne but saying that now would be suggesting they're going all out in testing and I doubt they are or if they were would want to tell everyone they've turned it up to max to check it out.

Aero checks and mechanical set up checks will still be being done with the amount of laps missed in the first 3 days for them. Last two days of the next test should show some more but good mileage finally today and it doesn't sound like the cooling issue is much of an issue at all.

The £2 exhaust bracket broke and burnt through the heat shield and they didn't have a spare hence the extra attention from the mechanics with the coolers although they did say the bracket may have broke because of a heat pocket so will make adjustments there for next week.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:09 pm 
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I feel like this week is a glorified systems check for most teams, and next week they spend more time on race pace.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:11 pm 
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Mercedes just look in a class of their own but it's very early. I read they think 1.15/16's are possible so there's still a whole load of performance being hidden by everyone and Ferrari,Red Bull and McLaren are getting the best praise track side in all conditions.

Apparently Newey is a fan of McLaren's new rear suspension aero wise but Mercedes doubt it offers any sizeable difference mechanically (AMuS)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:14 pm 
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Super Aguri Fun Time wrote:
I feel like this week is a glorified systems check for most teams, and next week they spend more time on race pace.


Yep, it's basically about making sure their entire winter work on the simulator wasn't a complete waste of time and everything correlates on track as it did in the sim.

Next week they'll turn it up a bit and do performance runs.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:25 pm 
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ohwell wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Mercedes do look frighteningly strong being faster on a slower tyre! Hope its not a runaway season!


Yeah everyone's gonna say too early... Testing.. cold temps blah blah blah but I have a nagging feeling it'll be another year of watching Hamilton take a stroll to the championship. McLaren look.. disappointing. And Honda ... Wtf?

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13460 ... --hamilton
Somewhat ominous comments from Lewis with regards to this. It certainly is too early to make any proclamations but I think it's safe to say that Mercedes will still be a race winning car. Just a matter of who will be up there with them and whether or not anyone will actually have them beat.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:55 pm 
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ohwell wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Mercedes do look frighteningly strong being faster on a slower tyre! Hope its not a runaway season!


Yeah everyone's gonna say too early... Testing.. cold temps blah blah blah but I have a nagging feeling it'll be another year of watching Hamilton take a stroll to the championship. McLaren look.. disappointing. And Honda ... Wtf?

To me, it already stinks like another year of Mercedes domination and walk-through.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:11 pm 
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ohwell wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
I have a nagging feeling it'll be another year of watching Hamilton take a stroll to the championship.


I agree, Lance's best chance at the world championship is Lewis taking him there ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:28 pm 
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It's interesting. I actually think Hamilton would have a better chance of a 5th WDC with a 3 tenth advantage than a 5 tenth + Advantage.

A 3 tenth gap would put Bottas into the clutches of whoever had the next best package whilst 0.5 puts him back into the position of an extra retirement taking four races to overcome.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:45 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
It's interesting. I actually think Hamilton would have a better chance of a 5th WDC with a 3 tenth advantage than a 5 tenth + Advantage.

A 3 tenth gap would put Bottas into the clutches of whoever had the next best package whilst 0.5 puts him back into the position of an extra retirement taking four races to overcome.

That's what we saw with Rosberg. The car really helped him to keep things close in a couple of those years by simply being strong enough to make up for an off day and still finish 2nd.

I think it's a bit premature to assume that they'll have any advantage though. We'll need to wait for Melbourne to really know anything for sure. Seems like a reasonable expectation that the three teams who were in the mix last year will be in it this year as well, at least on some level. Hopefully it will be as close as 2017 in terms of performance.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:51 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Erm, they were able to fight the exceptional Schumacher-Ferrari combo in 2000 and 2003, despite having inferior drivers to Schumacher. They were the fastest car in 2005, but again with the inferior drivers. In 2007 and 2008, they were behind Ferrari, but their better drivers got them a championship. Close to winning the WDC in 2010, maybe the joint-fastest car in 2012. I've never liked McLaren, but if this is your definition of incompetency in the 21st century for McLaren, then :lol:

How many titles did they win?

I don't think Mercedes winning the last four on the trot means that everybody else is incompetent.

I thought we were just talking about McLaren?

If them not winning titles is an indicator of incompetence, then why does that apply only to them?

It depends of what kind of incompetence you mean, Hamilton didn't leave McLaren because they built slow cars.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:56 am 
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Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't think Mercedes winning the last four on the trot means that everybody else is incompetent.

I thought we were just talking about McLaren?


If the measure of competence is titles then everyone but Mercedes has been incompetent obviously.

The measure of competence isn't titles. But it can't be denied that McLaren have been serial underachievers throughout the 21st century. Despite all the years they have had the fastest cars and the best drivers, they have one WDC to their name in all that time. A WDC that was a fumbling bellyflop over the finish line

Highlighting the number of years they've fought for and lost championships does not make for good reading

The drivers play a big part in that. If not for Schumacher, Ferrari would arguably be just as "incompetent" as McLaren.

Barrichello would have won 2 titles.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:02 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I thought we were just talking about McLaren?


If the measure of competence is titles then everyone but Mercedes has been incompetent obviously.

The measure of competence isn't titles. But it can't be denied that McLaren have been serial underachievers throughout the 21st century. Despite all the years they have had the fastest cars and the best drivers, they have one WDC to their name in all that time. A WDC that was a fumbling bellyflop over the finish line

Highlighting the number of years they've fought for and lost championships does not make for good reading

Yes this is the point I was making. :thumbup:

But linking it to incompetence makes a very different point. Not winning titles is not a measure of incompetence

You seem to be generalising when the team in question is obviously McLaren, they had the cars to win more titles than what they achieved.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:10 am 
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Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
If the measure of competence is titles then everyone but Mercedes has been incompetent obviously.

The measure of competence isn't titles. But it can't be denied that McLaren have been serial underachievers throughout the 21st century. Despite all the years they have had the fastest cars and the best drivers, they have one WDC to their name in all that time. A WDC that was a fumbling bellyflop over the finish line

Highlighting the number of years they've fought for and lost championships does not make for good reading

The drivers play a big part in that. If not for Schumacher, Ferrari would arguably be just as "incompetent" as McLaren.

That's only guesswork. McLaren have legit had the fastest cars and best drivers and have damn all silverware to show for it. Ferrari actually won with their fast cars and top drivers

Why is it that drivers like Raikkonen, Hamilton, Alonso, Button had their greatest successes somewhere else?

well, that's why I put "arguably." If you feel that without Schumacher Ferrari would have had identical results , then that raises the question of whether any team should bother getting a top driver anyway.

Regarding Alonso and Hamilton, I think it's a tad unfair to blame McLaren for the fact that both drivers threw their toys out of the pram and messed up the title chances for the team in 2007. You can lead a horse to water, and all that. Button had his success when he had a dominant car (at least for the first half of the season). He's not done better before or since, so how is that down to McLaren's incompetence?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying McLaren couldn't have done better at any point. But no more than Ferrari in 2010 and 2012 (and 2017, come to think of it). I just think accusations of incompetence are a bit strong when titles are often decided by the smallest of margins

McLaren were not to blame for the spygate debacle which surely must have destabalised the team to an extent plus the terrible strategy in China were all Hamilton had to do was score points but they were more concerned with Hamilton beating Alonso and winning the race which meant leaving Hamilton out on bald wet tyres?

Ferrari didn't have the best car in 2010 and 2012 with Alonso at the helm they were actually over achieving.

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