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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:03 pm 
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Absolutely. But it to be fair they are 1sec up on Torro Rosso. Giving Alonso and Mclaren little credit they make 0.5secs out of it I guess?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:06 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
As expected there is a huge gap to RBR 1sec gap which is their benchmark. I do not remember but they blamed Honda for some 1.5sec gap and claimed to have best chassis. Now they have the same engine so they can 't BS anymore :nod: From P7-P12 I think driver can make a difference. Mclaren should have been in Q3 today

McLaren are not only behind Red Bull; they are behind the works team as well. In other words, they are the weakest Renault-powered team.

We'll see how Honda does this year but one thing is for certain; McLaren have been exposed as being all talk. The chassis is nowhere near the best on the grid. It is a midfield chassis.


Alonso messed up his last run and lost 6ths in S1, he'd have done a 1.23.2 if he'd matched his best there, which would put them ahead of works Renault and splitting the Haas, and it looked it (4th) up until that last run to be fair. (He got traffic and messed up his tyre prep on the out lap)

But still nowhere near Red Bull obviously so not good enough but they did say they lacked to Red Bull in amongst the one of the best talk as well but no-one remembers that.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:14 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
As expected there is a huge gap to RBR 1sec gap which is their benchmark. I do not remember but they blamed Honda for some 1.5sec gap and claimed to have best chassis. Now they have the same engine so they can 't BS anymore :nod: From P7-P12 I think driver can make a difference. Mclaren should have been in Q3 today

McLaren are not only behind Red Bull; they are behind the works team as well. In other words, they are the weakest Renault-powered team.

We'll see how Honda does this year but one thing is for certain; McLaren have been exposed as being all talk. The chassis is nowhere near the best on the grid. It is a midfield chassis.


Alonso messed up his last run and lost 6ths in S1, he'd have done a 1.23.2 if he'd matched his best there, which would put them ahead of works Renault and splitting the Haas, and it looked it (4th) up until that last run to be fair. (He got traffic and messed up his tyre prep on the out lap)

But still nowhere near Red Bull obviously so not good enough but they did say they lacked to Red Bull in amongst the one of the best talk as well but no-one remembers that.

I'm sorry my friend, I know you must be getting tired of defending them. I really do hope for the best for them but I think they were a bit harsh with Honda and that's a pet peeve for me. Didn't like the way Red Bull treated Renault back in 2015 either for the record. I think McLaren took advantage of Honda's struggles and pinned the whole thing on them; assuming the position of a team that had built a top chassis but was held back by the engine. Now I think they have to deal with the reality of where they actually are; which is substantially off the pace. Overall though this is as good as they looked during the best of times with Honda these last few years so a good start to the season. And yes, Alonso didn't hook it up today so the ceiling is a bit higher.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:46 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
As expected there is a huge gap to RBR 1sec gap which is their benchmark. I do not remember but they blamed Honda for some 1.5sec gap and claimed to have best chassis. Now they have the same engine so they can 't BS anymore :nod: From P7-P12 I think driver can make a difference. Mclaren should have been in Q3 today

McLaren are not only behind Red Bull; they are behind the works team as well. In other words, they are the weakest Renault-powered team.

We'll see how Honda does this year but one thing is for certain; McLaren have been exposed as being all talk. The chassis is nowhere near the best on the grid. It is a midfield chassis.


Alonso messed up his last run and lost 6ths in S1, he'd have done a 1.23.2 if he'd matched his best there, which would put them ahead of works Renault and splitting the Haas, and it looked it (4th) up until that last run to be fair. (He got traffic and messed up his tyre prep on the out lap)

But still nowhere near Red Bull obviously so not good enough but they did say they lacked to Red Bull in amongst the one of the best talk as well but no-one remembers that.

I'm sorry my friend, I know you must be getting tired of defending them. I really do hope for the best for them but I think they were a bit harsh with Honda and that's a pet peeve for me. Didn't like the way Red Bull treated Renault back in 2015 either for the record. I think McLaren took advantage of Honda's struggles and pinned the whole thing on them; assuming the position of a team that had built a top chassis but was held back by the engine. Now I think they have to deal with the reality of where they actually are; which is substantially off the pace. Overall though this is as good as they looked during the best of times with Honda these last few years so a good start to the season. And yes, Alonso didn't hook it up today so the ceiling is a bit higher.


It's cool, I think criticism of McLaren is warranted in some areas of their dealing with Honda I just think people jumped on some clickbait quotes and ignored others when it came to the chassis and that's my peeve I think. In the same interview Alonso said one of best chassis's he also said they lacked to Red Bull and in other interviews he said they lacked to the top 3 more than once.

And now we're in a new year against new cars for everyone and McLaren got their hydraulic suspension taken off them and are running an entirely new and unique rear suspension and an unfamiliar engine so it's not even a evolution of the MCL32 in important areas but because of one quali session in a different car goes badly against the top 3 it means the MCL32 was bad and all their previous cars are now bad and were never anywhere near the top 3 on any track at any point is what it seems like is being said.

Which is just too simplistic for me if that's the gist even though I do think they used the Honda problem to cover some of their own shortfalls at times and exaggerated their own prowess at times too. Most teams and drivers chat all manner of rubbish and if it was only them talking about their previous chassis's i'd ignore it but it wasn't so I can't.

Even if it does come across like a bit of a fanboi defender. :]

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:26 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
As expected there is a huge gap to RBR 1sec gap which is their benchmark. I do not remember but they blamed Honda for some 1.5sec gap and claimed to have best chassis. Now they have the same engine so they can 't BS anymore :nod: From P7-P12 I think driver can make a difference. Mclaren should have been in Q3 today

McLaren are not only behind Red Bull; they are behind the works team as well. In other words, they are the weakest Renault-powered team.

We'll see how Honda does this year but one thing is for certain; McLaren have been exposed as being all talk. The chassis is nowhere near the best on the grid. It is a midfield chassis.


Alonso messed up his last run and lost 6ths in S1, he'd have done a 1.23.2 if he'd matched his best there, which would put them ahead of works Renault and splitting the Haas, and it looked it (4th) up until that last run to be fair. (He got traffic and messed up his tyre prep on the out lap)

But still nowhere near Red Bull obviously so not good enough but they did say they lacked to Red Bull in amongst the one of the best talk as well but no-one remembers that.


This entire thing reminds me of the arguments quite a number of years ago. When people said Lewis Hamilton had zero talent and it was the car. Since then, those critics went vamoosh.

You can't judge a partnership on a single weekend. Especially the first one. Comparing Mclaren to RBR... well last I checked RBR had a solid car since their domination days. Mclaren on the first weekend with Honda were a back marker team. Why are the critics not comparing Mclaren to the team that has the Honda engine? why is that? because they've lost the argument.

You can't stick in a new engine manufacturer and expect an easy top 6 result without some luck. RBR have had 10x the amount of time working with Renault, why not stick the Honda in their car? They won't be competing with Merc/Ferrari.. they'd be sitting just ahead of the Toros.

I swear some people have zero engineering knowledge... and even less F1 understanding.. Course not everything was Honda's fault, other parts failed that were not provided by Honda.. some tracks were not suited to the Mclaren. BUT when the engine dies every weekend or just fails with barely any mileage... that's not the chassis.. regardless what people think.

So try and be a bit more realistic. Mclaren are already in a better position with a new engine manufacturer compared to the majority of 3 years with Honda.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:15 pm 
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It's a good thing they broke up. Assuming if Honda engine was equal to Renault ( which we would have no way of knowing). McLaren would still be outside the top ten with the lowest top speed and complaining they have among the best chasis but losing a second a lap on the straights to the front runners as a result of Honda. And somehow people here will rationalize it.

I see McLaren in trouble, I don't have any knowledge of their cash flow but clear to see they have skinny sponsors. Don't know how they going to outdevelop Renault let alone RBR unless their shareholders take a serious gamble. I say gamble because whatever their management has been telling them seems a lot of spin doctoring by looking at the results


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:36 pm 
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Teddy007 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
As expected there is a huge gap to RBR 1sec gap which is their benchmark. I do not remember but they blamed Honda for some 1.5sec gap and claimed to have best chassis. Now they have the same engine so they can 't BS anymore :nod: From P7-P12 I think driver can make a difference. Mclaren should have been in Q3 today

McLaren are not only behind Red Bull; they are behind the works team as well. In other words, they are the weakest Renault-powered team.

We'll see how Honda does this year but one thing is for certain; McLaren have been exposed as being all talk. The chassis is nowhere near the best on the grid. It is a midfield chassis.


Alonso messed up his last run and lost 6ths in S1, he'd have done a 1.23.2 if he'd matched his best there, which would put them ahead of works Renault and splitting the Haas, and it looked it (4th) up until that last run to be fair. (He got traffic and messed up his tyre prep on the out lap)

But still nowhere near Red Bull obviously so not good enough but they did say they lacked to Red Bull in amongst the one of the best talk as well but no-one remembers that.


This entire thing reminds me of the arguments quite a number of years ago. When people said Lewis Hamilton had zero talent and it was the car. Since then, those critics went vamoosh.

You can't judge a partnership on a single weekend. Especially the first one. Comparing Mclaren to RBR... well last I checked RBR had a solid car since their domination days. Mclaren on the first weekend with Honda were a back marker team. Why are the critics not comparing Mclaren to the team that has the Honda engine? why is that? because they've lost the argument.

You can't stick in a new engine manufacturer and expect an easy top 6 result without some luck. RBR have had 10x the amount of time working with Renault, why not stick the Honda in their car? They won't be competing with Merc/Ferrari.. they'd be sitting just ahead of the Toros.

I swear some people have zero engineering knowledge... and even less F1 understanding.. Course not everything was Honda's fault, other parts failed that were not provided by Honda.. some tracks were not suited to the Mclaren. BUT when the engine dies every weekend or just fails with barely any mileage... that's not the chassis.. regardless what people think.

So try and be a bit more realistic. Mclaren are already in a better position with a new engine manufacturer compared to the majority of 3 years with Honda.




Mclaren themselves claimed about having best car and competing with RBR as they also using the same engine. My prediction was they will finish 6th in WCC this year. In fact they are doing slightly better than I thought. If you look at Renault they are more realistic, they don't make such claims and have gradually progressed.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:21 pm 
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I think the title of the thread should have been 'What if it wasn't all Honda's fault ?'
If that were the case, most sane people would have agree and that would be the end of it..


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:24 pm 
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If you want to look at it positively, they seem to already be on better shape starting the season on their first time with Renault, than they were last year after two years of experience with Honda. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:46 pm 
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mpls2 wrote:
I think the title of the thread should have been 'What if it wasn't all Honda's fault ?'
If that were the case, most sane people would have agree and that would be the end of it..



:thumbup: Agree


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:16 pm 
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So going by the comparison of pace relative to last year in qualifying - which has McLaren up by about 2 seconds and Toro Rosso marginally down, the only team to be so - it looks like maybe it was and still is Honda's fault?

Honestly, I don't know why everybody jumped the gun and started saying the Honda engine was suddenly great just because it didn't blow up in testing. It never looked quick.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:05 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
It doesn't actually matter whether or not the engine came good this year. It's maintaining that works team situation that should have taken precedent. Honda brought a lot of resources to the table that Mclaren now have to do without. They also brought the possibility of becoming champions again some day. For a customer team to win titles in this era or the next would be all but impossible. Maybe Red Bull could pull it off but I'd say the odds are against even them and they have a vastly superior chassis.

I do agree and I argued as much on here when the decision was being made. But at the same time, I can understand why patience ran out after three years of waiting. It's not as though Honda weren't quite there yet: they failed quite spectacularly. There was always a risk that Honda would turn the corner after the divorce but there again the risk that they wouldn't actually improve was probably far greater at the time. They were woeful. It's not that long ago that McLaren were seen as one of the giants in the sport. Now, judging by many of the comments, many appear to have forgotten about their legacy at all

McLaren were already on a downward path before Honda linked up with them, they have not won a race since 2012.

I think you're being a bit creative here. They did produce a dud in 2013, but in 2014 nobody won a race apart from Mercedes and Red Bull. After that, McLaren were with Honda, which scuppered any further chances of producing a race winner

In 2014 McLaren got beat easily by Williams and only just beat Force India, they clearly were not a top team.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:08 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
As expected there is a huge gap to RBR 1sec gap which is their benchmark. I do not remember but they blamed Honda for some 1.5sec gap and claimed to have best chassis. Now they have the same engine so they can 't BS anymore :nod: From P7-P12 I think driver can make a difference. Mclaren should have been in Q3 today

McLaren are not only behind Red Bull; they are behind the works team as well. In other words, they are the weakest Renault-powered team.

We'll see how Honda does this year but one thing is for certain; McLaren have been exposed as being all talk. The chassis is nowhere near the best on the grid. It is a midfield chassis.


Alonso messed up his last run and lost 6ths in S1, he'd have done a 1.23.2 if he'd matched his best there, which would put them ahead of works Renault and splitting the Haas, and it looked it (4th) up until that last run to be fair. (He got traffic and messed up his tyre prep on the out lap)

But still nowhere near Red Bull obviously so not good enough but they did say they lacked to Red Bull in amongst the one of the best talk as well but no-one remembers that.

1-23.2 is ifs buts and maybes, Sainz posted a 1-23.0 in Q2.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:12 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
So going by the comparison of pace relative to last year in qualifying - which has McLaren up by about 2 seconds and Toro Rosso marginally down, the only team to be so - it looks like maybe it was and still is Honda's fault?

Honestly, I don't know why everybody jumped the gun and started saying the Honda engine was suddenly great just because it didn't blow up in testing. It never looked quick.

I think what's being questioned here are McLaren claims that it was the Honda engine that was preventing them from being a top team.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
So going by the comparison of pace relative to last year in qualifying - which has McLaren up by about 2 seconds and Toro Rosso marginally down, the only team to be so - it looks like maybe it was and still is Honda's fault?
Honestly, I don't know why everybody jumped the gun and started saying the Honda engine was suddenly great just because it didn't blow up in testing. It never looked quick.

I think what's being questioned here are McLaren claims that it was the Honda engine that was preventing them from being a top team.

Right, but if you split the difference between Toro Rosso and McLaren last year compared to this year so far - assuming they developed to a similar extent, which is admittedly an assumption - you get the Honda engine being around 1 second per lap slower than the Renault PU. If you apply that difference to McLaren last year, there would definitely have been tracks where they were challenging Red Bull, and that would put them in top team territory.

This year they seem to have taken a step backwards (although I don't think they showed their full potential in quali), but that doesn't mean last year's car wasn't within the margin of deficit from the engine. After all, last year Force India was safely the 4th-quckest team, and they certainly don't seem to be anymore. A good car one year does not mean a good car the next year.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:36 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I do agree and I argued as much on here when the decision was being made. But at the same time, I can understand why patience ran out after three years of waiting. It's not as though Honda weren't quite there yet: they failed quite spectacularly. There was always a risk that Honda would turn the corner after the divorce but there again the risk that they wouldn't actually improve was probably far greater at the time. They were woeful. It's not that long ago that McLaren were seen as one of the giants in the sport. Now, judging by many of the comments, many appear to have forgotten about their legacy at all

McLaren were already on a downward path before Honda linked up with them, they have not won a race since 2012.

I think you're being a bit creative here. They did produce a dud in 2013, but in 2014 nobody won a race apart from Mercedes and Red Bull. After that, McLaren were with Honda, which scuppered any further chances of producing a race winner

In 2014 McLaren got beat easily by Williams and only just beat Force India, they clearly were not a top team.

And they were just behind Ferrari.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:59 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
McLaren were already on a downward path before Honda linked up with them, they have not won a race since 2012.

I think you're being a bit creative here. They did produce a dud in 2013, but in 2014 nobody won a race apart from Mercedes and Red Bull. After that, McLaren were with Honda, which scuppered any further chances of producing a race winner

In 2014 McLaren got beat easily by Williams and only just beat Force India, they clearly were not a top team.

And they were just behind Ferrari.

With a vastly superior engine.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:30 am 
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I've long gotten used to the fact that McLaren always puts out massive piles of BS before the season, and the English media just laps it all up. I've gotten to the point where I just laugh at it and the idiots who claim to be experts that repeat it.

Alonso was talking about podiums this year. Well, only if the top three teams all take themselves out into turn 1. Even then there's probably 3 cars that can beat Alonso.

What if it wasn't Honda's fault?
Indeed.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:07 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
So going by the comparison of pace relative to last year in qualifying - which has McLaren up by about 2 seconds and Toro Rosso marginally down, the only team to be so - it looks like maybe it was and still is Honda's fault?
Honestly, I don't know why everybody jumped the gun and started saying the Honda engine was suddenly great just because it didn't blow up in testing. It never looked quick.

I think what's being questioned here are McLaren claims that it was the Honda engine that was preventing them from being a top team.

Right, but if you split the difference between Toro Rosso and McLaren last year compared to this year so far - assuming they developed to a similar extent, which is admittedly an assumption - you get the Honda engine being around 1 second per lap slower than the Renault PU. If you apply that difference to McLaren last year, there would definitely have been tracks where they were challenging Red Bull, and that would put them in top team territory.

This year they seem to have taken a step backwards (although I don't think they showed their full potential in quali), but that doesn't mean last year's car wasn't within the margin of deficit from the engine. After all, last year Force India was safely the 4th-quckest team, and they certainly don't seem to be anymore. A good car one year does not mean a good car the next year.

Yes STR are a second slower this year but they don't have Sainz in the car whilst McLaren were on average 1.3s slower than Red Bull in the second half of last season, I guess it's how you want to measure the Sainz factor bearing in mind he just out qualified the Hulk by half a second although he was hardly any quicker than Kvyat last year in Australia, it's hard to imagine Hartley being as quick as Sainz?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:10 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
As expected there is a huge gap to RBR 1sec gap which is their benchmark. I do not remember but they blamed Honda for some 1.5sec gap and claimed to have best chassis. Now they have the same engine so they can 't BS anymore :nod: From P7-P12 I think driver can make a difference. Mclaren should have been in Q3 today

McLaren are not only behind Red Bull; they are behind the works team as well. In other words, they are the weakest Renault-powered team.

We'll see how Honda does this year but one thing is for certain; McLaren have been exposed as being all talk. The chassis is nowhere near the best on the grid. It is a midfield chassis.


Alonso messed up his last run and lost 6ths in S1, he'd have done a 1.23.2 if he'd matched his best there, which would put them ahead of works Renault and splitting the Haas, and it looked it (4th) up until that last run to be fair. (He got traffic and messed up his tyre prep on the out lap)

But still nowhere near Red Bull obviously so not good enough but they did say they lacked to Red Bull in amongst the one of the best talk as well but no-one remembers that.

1-23.2 is ifs buts and maybes, Sainz posted a 1-23.0 in Q2.


Sure but it's not the cars fault Alonso couldn't repeat his S1 time. We're talking known performance there rather than pie in the sky.

Just pointing out they were still in the fight for 4th.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:29 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
So going by the comparison of pace relative to last year in qualifying - which has McLaren up by about 2 seconds and Toro Rosso marginally down, the only team to be so - it looks like maybe it was and still is Honda's fault?
Honestly, I don't know why everybody jumped the gun and started saying the Honda engine was suddenly great just because it didn't blow up in testing. It never looked quick.

I think what's being questioned here are McLaren claims that it was the Honda engine that was preventing them from being a top team.

Right, but if you split the difference between Toro Rosso and McLaren last year compared to this year so far - assuming they developed to a similar extent, which is admittedly an assumption - you get the Honda engine being around 1 second per lap slower than the Renault PU. If you apply that difference to McLaren last year, there would definitely have been tracks where they were challenging Red Bull, and that would put them in top team territory.

This year they seem to have taken a step backwards (although I don't think they showed their full potential in quali), but that doesn't mean last year's car wasn't within the margin of deficit from the engine. After all, last year Force India was safely the 4th-quckest team, and they certainly don't seem to be anymore. A good car one year does not mean a good car the next year.


There are lot of variables to compare to last year including drivers.

Mclaren are 1sec ahead of Torro Rosso in yesterday qualifying. Do you think that 1sec is purely on engine performance ?

So basically Torro Rosso car is on par with Mclaren and they are got exposed, right ? :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:53 am 
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The engine change has obviously affected both teams more than they let on.

McLaren's front half of the car and bargeboards are untouched from the last car,they were supposed to bring a new package here but now it's going to be spread across several races. That to me screams they are behind bringing in their upgrades and will bring them when ready. They had no choice but to overhaul the rear with a new suspension so I think that took the bulk of work over the winter.

In STR's case they were supposed to have Red Bull's rear from last year but had to scrap that idea and just come up with something to wrap around the engine. They are targeting Spain I believe for their upgrade and knowing them it could be good so they've got pkenty to come car wise too.

So yeah I think they both downplayed the switch.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:59 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
As expected there is a huge gap to RBR 1sec gap which is their benchmark. I do not remember but they blamed Honda for some 1.5sec gap and claimed to have best chassis. Now they have the same engine so they can 't BS anymore :nod: From P7-P12 I think driver can make a difference. Mclaren should have been in Q3 today

McLaren are not only behind Red Bull; they are behind the works team as well. In other words, they are the weakest Renault-powered team.

We'll see how Honda does this year but one thing is for certain; McLaren have been exposed as being all talk. The chassis is nowhere near the best on the grid. It is a midfield chassis.


Alonso messed up his last run and lost 6ths in S1, he'd have done a 1.23.2 if he'd matched his best there, which would put them ahead of works Renault and splitting the Haas, and it looked it (4th) up until that last run to be fair. (He got traffic and messed up his tyre prep on the out lap)

But still nowhere near Red Bull obviously so not good enough but they did say they lacked to Red Bull in amongst the one of the best talk as well but no-one remembers that.

1-23.2 is ifs buts and maybes, Sainz posted a 1-23.0 in Q2.


Sure but it's not the cars fault Alonso couldn't repeat his S1 time. We're talking known performance there rather than pie in the sky.

Just pointing out they were still in the fight for 4th.

But still not as fast as the Renault, let's see how the Chinese upgrades go.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:02 am 
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[quote="pokerman"
But still not as fast as the Renault, let's see how the Chinese upgrades go.[/quote]

In Quali. Renault were much better in quali than in races last year. If Alonso gets a clean race who wouldn't back him to finish ahead of Sainz/Hulkenberg.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:02 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
The engine change has obviously affected both teams more than they let on.

McLaren's front half of the car and bargeboards are untouched from the last car,they were supposed to bring a new package here but now it's going to be spread across several races. That to me screams they are behind bringing in their upgrades and will bring them when ready. They had no choice but to overhaul the rear with a new suspension so I think that took the bulk of work over the winter.

In STR's case they were supposed to have Red Bull's rear from last year but had to scrap that idea and just come up with something to wrap around the engine. They are targeting Spain I believe for their upgrade and knowing them it could be good so they've got pkenty to come car wise too.

So yeah I think they both downplayed the switch.

So really for both teams we can't make a defining comparison of the relative engine performance between Renault and Honda?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:04 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
But still not as fast as the Renault, let's see how the Chinese upgrades go.


In Quali. Renault were much better in quali than in races last year. If Alonso gets a clean race who wouldn't back him to finish ahead of Sainz/Hulkenberg.

Indeed but would that be down to the car or Alonso himself?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:33 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
McLaren are not only behind Red Bull; they are behind the works team as well. In other words, they are the weakest Renault-powered team.

We'll see how Honda does this year but one thing is for certain; McLaren have been exposed as being all talk. The chassis is nowhere near the best on the grid. It is a midfield chassis.


Alonso messed up his last run and lost 6ths in S1, he'd have done a 1.23.2 if he'd matched his best there, which would put them ahead of works Renault and splitting the Haas, and it looked it (4th) up until that last run to be fair. (He got traffic and messed up his tyre prep on the out lap)

But still nowhere near Red Bull obviously so not good enough but they did say they lacked to Red Bull in amongst the one of the best talk as well but no-one remembers that.

1-23.2 is ifs buts and maybes, Sainz posted a 1-23.0 in Q2.


Sure but it's not the cars fault Alonso couldn't repeat his S1 time. We're talking known performance there rather than pie in the sky.

Just pointing out they were still in the fight for 4th.

But still not as fast as the Renault, let's see how the Chinese upgrades go.


There wasn't much in it until the last run where Alonso messed up and left 6ths on the table though tbf. A tenth or two max.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:35 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
The engine change has obviously affected both teams more than they let on.

McLaren's front half of the car and bargeboards are untouched from the last car,they were supposed to bring a new package here but now it's going to be spread across several races. That to me screams they are behind bringing in their upgrades and will bring them when ready. They had no choice but to overhaul the rear with a new suspension so I think that took the bulk of work over the winter.

In STR's case they were supposed to have Red Bull's rear from last year but had to scrap that idea and just come up with something to wrap around the engine. They are targeting Spain I believe for their upgrade and knowing them it could be good so they've got pkenty to come car wise too.

So yeah I think they both downplayed the switch.

So really for both teams we can't make a defining comparison of the relative engine performance between Renault and Honda?


Do you really need one? Honda say they are behind Renault. Marko says they are behind Renault. Red Bull haven't switched yet either which surely would be a sign.

And as I type the STR pits...

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:06 am 
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It's only one race but I suggest we have an answer.

The naysayers now have two choices, apologise or leave...


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:23 pm 
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Yeah, I think that race made it starkly clear exactly how bad the Honda engine still is. McLaren may or may not have had the best chassis last year, but you could put that lump in a Mercedes and they'd struggle to get in the points.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:40 am 
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Indeed, some people were impressed at the sky high honda trap speeds during the winter tests and practice sessions, myself included. But during the race and qualifying, for whatever reason, their trap speeds data went back to being normal, right back to the bottom.

Image




The race and quali showed us that Honda still has a whole lot of work to do, and are where most of us thought they would be before the season started; at the very bottom of the pecking order.

With that said, there is some food for thought, because Hartley, who is not exactly known as the next coming of Ayrton Senna, was only 5 tenths off Stoffel Vandoorne in qualifying. Toro Rosso has a major weakness with their driver lineup, so it's something to keep in mind.

But yeah it will be a fun season to watch unfold between these two teams. Let's see who will improve the most.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:55 am 
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Battle Far wrote:
It's only one race but I suggest we have an answer.

The naysayers now have two choices, apologise or leave...


You mean Torro Rosso DNF lol. Mclaren had a great race for sure especially in reliability.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:00 am 
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kleefton wrote:
With that said, there is some food for thought, because Hartley, who is not exactly known as the next coming of Ayrton Senna, was only 5 tenths off Stoffel Vandoorne in qualifying. Toro Rosso has a major weakness with their driver lineup, so it's something to keep in mind.

But yeah it will be a fun season to watch unfold between these two teams. Let's see who will improve the most.

True, and after qualifying I thought that maybe Honda wasn't as bad as I'd expected. But it seems they can't maintain that power level, because in the race Hartley was a lot more than half a second per lap off Vandoorne. After the safety car ended, Stoffel put 40 seconds on him in only 26 laps:

(data taken from http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... %20Hartley)

Image

The column on the left is Vandoorne's lap time, the right is Hartley's. They set their fastest race lap on the same lap and both in clean air, with similar tyre life - Vandoorne's was 1.2 seconds faster.

Both teams should indeed improve as they get the integration of engine and chassis down more, but I expect that improvement will not be favorable to Toro Rosso - they're the Honda works team, so in principle their car will already be very well designed around the Honda engine. McLaren had to make some compromises to fit the Renault in, so their development should be more rapid as they deal with those and move forward with actual optimization of the package.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:52 am 
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Efficiency is power in this formula and they don't have efficiency. Peak power quali mode is obviously improving, they have constant ers throughout the lap and ICE power won't be far off the others so in one lap pace they'll look a lot better.

But to run efficiently throughout the race they'll have to dial it back and that creates the power loss to their rivals. Also reliability is still nit there, hoodwinking everyone in winter testing by using 4 units worked but you can't fool anyone during the season and that MGU-H gave up the ghost pretty quick which last year meant the turbo was gone too because they're in the same block so that's another problem.

But they are at least on the same page as everyone else now with how the 'H' is used and they've got lean burn so it is at least, and at last, an F1 calibre engine, it's just currently the weakest.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:03 am 
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Bahrain and China are proper track and more engine sensitive than Australia. I think Mclaren is not worried about Honda though. They will be fighting with Renault and Haas in coming races

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:14 am 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Bahrain and China are proper track and more engine sensitive than Australia. I think Mclaren is not worried about Honda though. They will be fighting with Renault and Haas in coming races


Yeah Hass threw it away and Bahrain should suit them even more with Ferrari power so will be tricky to get a repeat for sure. STR might actually be a bit better in Q as I don't believe they have enough d/f and it looks quite slippy so Bahrain might be ok. The problem will be the race and reliability again for them.

Be interesting to see if McLaren bring the same engine cover as I'm not convinced they've solved that 'burn' issue at all. I've a hunch they are running detuned as a couple of comments from EB seemed to insinuate they could turn it up if they wanted and indeed did before the VSC and pit stops, Alonso was flying in clear air once past Sainz.

I wonder if a new engine cover could be the update Alonso talked about giving 'free' performance and that when they can actually get the same out of the power unit as Red Bull and Renault they could clear Renault but we'll see. If it's hot in Bahrain and they've got the same engine cover it could be tough I feel.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:59 am 
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It was Honda's fault.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:17 pm 
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Sutton wrote:
It was Honda's fault.

LMAO!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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