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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:07 am 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
So why use the phrase "baying for blood"? It's not the same thing is it.

Why even the suggestion that Marquez may get worse, what am I supposed to read into that, he did get penalised after all and he's not stupid.

Well as many times before the problem seems to be you needing to read all sorts of things into everything. I wasn't calling for harder penalties hence I'm not baying for blood as you so eloquently put it.

Why would you think that he might get worse?

Frustration.

Unless his race gets ruined again by stalling his bike on the grid and then getting a ride through penalty I don't see how he's going to get frustrated?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:11 am 
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mds wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Some crazy race. A shame for the downright grade-A bullshittery Marquez pulled which has soaked up all attention, because right at the front we saw some good stuff happening. Stoked for Rins to have his first podium, would have liked to see him win but this is OK too. Zarco just not enough for his first win.

Although to be fair Miller was somewhat robbed with the starting procedure that was made up right there and then. There are rules and they were not followed, and Miller was disadvantaged.

I believe the actual rule was that tyre changing riders have to start from the back so basically all the riders apart from Miller started from the back.


I cannot claim to know the MotoGP rules as well as I do the F1 rules, but as I've read just about everywhere the tyre changing riders should have started from pit lane. Either that or flag to flag rules should have been implemented with a normal start and riders coming in after one lap to change bikes.


That is correct, but the worry was that 23 riders racing from the pitlane was unsafe, especially with a variable track, so the decision was made to make them start from the back as much as the could with the space allowed. That's what I got from Ezpeleta, anyway. I'm not sure I entirely agree but it does make sense. When this happened similarly at the Sachsenring a few years ago with 4 or 5 riders, it was dangerous and they were elbowing and banging immediately, so the thought of 23 riders doing the same could have caused mass carnage, which would have robbed us all of what eventually happened.


I get that, but Miller really got the bad end of the deal.

If they were making rules up on the spot anyway, they might as well have implemented flag to flag for those that didn't swap tyres before the start, and have given those that did swap tyres a ride-through. Done.

One made up rule is not better than another made up rule, the actual rule they didn't implement because of it being unsafe for all the bikes bar one starting from the pitlane.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 12th

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:33 am 
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Cold Gin wrote:
The bigger picture has to always be kept in mind; I think they made a good choice in the interests of safety. Miller still had a sizable advantage at the start, and the other riders were penalized to the back.


If everyone is penalized to the back then pretty much nobody is. Miller had all of, what, two seconds? That's not sizeable, not even close to what he should have had.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:35 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe the actual rule was that tyre changing riders have to start from the back so basically all the riders apart from Miller started from the back.


I cannot claim to know the MotoGP rules as well as I do the F1 rules, but as I've read just about everywhere the tyre changing riders should have started from pit lane. Either that or flag to flag rules should have been implemented with a normal start and riders coming in after one lap to change bikes.


That is correct, but the worry was that 23 riders racing from the pitlane was unsafe, especially with a variable track, so the decision was made to make them start from the back as much as the could with the space allowed. That's what I got from Ezpeleta, anyway. I'm not sure I entirely agree but it does make sense. When this happened similarly at the Sachsenring a few years ago with 4 or 5 riders, it was dangerous and they were elbowing and banging immediately, so the thought of 23 riders doing the same could have caused mass carnage, which would have robbed us all of what eventually happened.


I get that, but Miller really got the bad end of the deal.

If they were making rules up on the spot anyway, they might as well have implemented flag to flag for those that didn't swap tyres before the start, and have given those that did swap tyres a ride-through. Done.

One made up rule is not better than another made up rule, the actual rule they didn't implement because of it being unsafe for all the bikes bar one starting from the pitlane.


Then start them all on the grid and implement flag to flag. They'd have to make up far less for that than they did now. In the interest of fairness it would have been better.

In any case they have to look at the rules because this is clearly a case that isn't covered well enough.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:05 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Why even the suggestion that Marquez may get worse, what am I supposed to read into that, he did get penalised after all and he's not stupid.

Well as many times before the problem seems to be you needing to read all sorts of things into everything. I wasn't calling for harder penalties hence I'm not baying for blood as you so eloquently put it.

Why would you think that he might get worse?

Frustration.

Unless his race gets ruined again by stalling his bike on the grid and then getting a ride through penalty I don't see how he's going to get frustrated?

That's strange, I'd have thought there'd be more reasons to get frustrated.

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Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:20 pm 
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Mds what they did was the best solution

Gifting Miller a win would have been embarrassing viewing


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:43 pm 
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Zazu wrote:
Mds what they did was the best solution

Gifting Miller a win would have been embarrassing viewing


I don't care about embarrassing if it means it's fair. Miller had two seconds advance, which is a proper shambles. They rest screwed up and hardly paid for it at all.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:54 pm 
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You start from the pit lane if you change tyres after the formation lap. If you change before the formation lap, you start the formation lap from the pit exit once all other riders have passed and form up at the back of the grid in qualification order.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:45 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 24848
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
mds wrote:
I cannot claim to know the MotoGP rules as well as I do the F1 rules, but as I've read just about everywhere the tyre changing riders should have started from pit lane. Either that or flag to flag rules should have been implemented with a normal start and riders coming in after one lap to change bikes.


That is correct, but the worry was that 23 riders racing from the pitlane was unsafe, especially with a variable track, so the decision was made to make them start from the back as much as the could with the space allowed. That's what I got from Ezpeleta, anyway. I'm not sure I entirely agree but it does make sense. When this happened similarly at the Sachsenring a few years ago with 4 or 5 riders, it was dangerous and they were elbowing and banging immediately, so the thought of 23 riders doing the same could have caused mass carnage, which would have robbed us all of what eventually happened.


I get that, but Miller really got the bad end of the deal.

If they were making rules up on the spot anyway, they might as well have implemented flag to flag for those that didn't swap tyres before the start, and have given those that did swap tyres a ride-through. Done.

One made up rule is not better than another made up rule, the actual rule they didn't implement because of it being unsafe for all the bikes bar one starting from the pitlane.


Then start them all on the grid and implement flag to flag. They'd have to make up far less for that than they did now. In the interest of fairness it would have been better.

In any case they have to look at the rules because this is clearly a case that isn't covered well enough.

But then again you are inventing your own rule I believe?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 12th

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:46 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 24848
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Well as many times before the problem seems to be you needing to read all sorts of things into everything. I wasn't calling for harder penalties hence I'm not baying for blood as you so eloquently put it.

Why would you think that he might get worse?

Frustration.

Unless his race gets ruined again by stalling his bike on the grid and then getting a ride through penalty I don't see how he's going to get frustrated?

That's strange, I'd have thought there'd be more reasons to get frustrated.

More frustrated than getting a ride through penalty?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 12th

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:07 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:07 pm
Posts: 9049
What an awkward conversation, I'll stop now.

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Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


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