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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:50 am 
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So far, all the evidence points at Ferrari > Mercedes > Red Bull >>>>> rest of the field, IMO.
Sauber, Williams and STR seem to be marginally behind the midfield.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:20 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
So far, all the evidence points at Ferrari > Mercedes > Red Bull >>>>> rest of the field, IMO.
Sauber, Williams and STR seem to be marginally behind the midfield.


I think the Williams car is in that midfield.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:21 am 
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AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No let's actually look at this. I've decided that this year I'm going to take posters such as yourself to task; even if it takes a couple of minutes to gather the relevant facts.

Here is a quote from my post from after the Australian Gran Prix:
"One thing is clear though. Ferrari are no match for Mercedes. The gap between them is substantial. At no point did Lewis really go 10/10 in this race and he had plenty of pace in hand over the Ferraris. Only the circuit prevented him from passing Vettel."
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14879&start=280

So this is what I actually wrote after the first race of the season. If I have a biased agenda as you seek to convey through your accusation, I am certainly not doing a very good job of supporting it am I?

You, on the other hand, were saying that Mercedes were fastest even after Bahrain. On the second page of this thread you can be seen suggesting that Mercedes intentionally tuned down their engine in Q3 in order to be able to gain political points in the negotiations over 2021 regulations. That's the extent you'll go to to push YOUR agenda..

In other words; stop projecting your own behavior onto me please.


You're taking yourself and this way to serious, ease up a bit.
I didn't claim Merc was holding back, I cited a Ricciardo answer joking about it, and had a laugh about it, even Marko said that Merc here playing.

You claim Ferrari is faster and that their engine is better now, I claim it's hard to judge, I don't believe it yet, Bottas had no problem at all undercutting Vettel and holding him off.

Don't tell me to ease up when you are the person who took things in this direction with your BS accusation. Pointing your finger at me and accusing me of what you actually do is behavior that reflects poorly on you. But we can leave that alone for now.

In terms of the cars themselves, the Ferrari has been stronger so far. There's not really a reasonable argument to the contrary. Australia is a wildcard circuit and as the first race, it is often not representative of the actual pecking order. Ferrari also made significant adjustments to their car after Australia which have clearly worked.

The reason I say they have more power is because the evidence suggests that they do. They have been faster than Mercedes in a straight line all year and, in China, they were also clearly quicker through the corners. They were much more planted through the fast corners like 7 and 13.

Again, Vettel was comfortably in control of the gap to Bottas when in front and breathing down his neck when behind. Even Raikkonen is able to comfortably outqualify the Mercs and would beat them in the races too if he could make a decent start and run a decent strategy. Considering his level of performance in the last 5 years, this is clear indication of Ferrari's strength.

Above all else though, it's the logical inconsistency from some posters that I have to call out. Last year Mercedes were sometimes only quicker in qualy and lost out to Ferrari during the race and yet people were saying that's enough to make Mercedes the better package. At races like spa they said getting pole was so important that it superseded being quicker during the race. Now we have a team that is faster both on Saturday's and Sundays but they're not convinced?


Last edited by sandman1347 on Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:24 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:22 am 
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lamo wrote:
3.5 seconds isn't that extreme for an undercut at all, especially on a high degradation track and with 1 second of it in the pit lane. But one thing in Mercedes favour over Ferrari is its ability to switch the tyres on immediately. This was evident yesterday with Bottas' out lap and also after the SC went in, he was quicker than Vettel when the tyres were cold for that first lap and a half. My gut feeling was Vettel was significantly quicker than Bottas when they went onto mediums, he was the only car to be able to hound another car whilst on a similar age/compound tyre. Everybody else in this scenario couldn't get within 1.5 seconds of the car in front due to dirty air.

The undercut was just as strong in Bahrain too.

Vettel lead Bottas by 2.2 seconds.

Vettel pitted 2 laps before Bottas.

The gap was then 7.7 seconds.

Vettel gained 5.5 seconds in two laps.

That is also the reason Vettel jumped in the pits in Bahrain because the Mercedes boys were out in the pits ready to undercut him. If Bottas had pitted a lap before in Bahrain he would have lead the race there too. Its going to be who is bravest to pit earliest this year.

Old tyres are really slow this year, its why Kimi was going to win in Bahrain on his new SS's. The teams are trying to run 1 stoppers when 2 stoppers are quicker (in Bahrain and china at least)


I don't think a two stopper was quicker 8n Bahrain. Look at Ericsson.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:32 am 
mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
3.5 seconds isn't that extreme for an undercut at all, especially on a high degradation track and with 1 second of it in the pit lane. But one thing in Mercedes favour over Ferrari is its ability to switch the tyres on immediately. This was evident yesterday with Bottas' out lap and also after the SC went in, he was quicker than Vettel when the tyres were cold for that first lap and a half. My gut feeling was Vettel was significantly quicker than Bottas when they went onto mediums, he was the only car to be able to hound another car whilst on a similar age/compound tyre. Everybody else in this scenario couldn't get within 1.5 seconds of the car in front due to dirty air.

The undercut was just as strong in Bahrain too.

Vettel lead Bottas by 2.2 seconds.

Vettel pitted 2 laps before Bottas.

The gap was then 7.7 seconds.

Vettel gained 5.5 seconds in two laps.

That is also the reason Vettel jumped in the pits in Bahrain because the Mercedes boys were out in the pits ready to undercut him. If Bottas had pitted a lap before in Bahrain he would have lead the race there too. Its going to be who is bravest to pit earliest this year.

Old tyres are really slow this year, its why Kimi was going to win in Bahrain on his new SS's. The teams are trying to run 1 stoppers when 2 stoppers are quicker (in Bahrain and china at least)


I don't think a two stopper was quicker 8n Bahrain. Look at Ericsson.


The 2 stop was so much quicker in Bahrain that if Vettel had pitted with 6 laps to go he would had completed the race quicker than he actually did. Raikkonen was going to win the race if he didn't have his pit stop failure.

We saw in China, the Red Bulls with 10 lap fresher tyres and 1 stage softer go 1.3-1.5 seocnds a lap quicker than Bottas a car that there were slower than when on equal tyres/compound.

In Bahrain, Kimi would have been 16 laps fresher and 1 stage softer. Not only that, but Vettel tyres went off the cliff at the end. Kimi would have had 21 laps to close a 23 second gap. He would have been over 2 seconds per lap quicker.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:36 am 
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lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
3.5 seconds isn't that extreme for an undercut at all, especially on a high degradation track and with 1 second of it in the pit lane. But one thing in Mercedes favour over Ferrari is its ability to switch the tyres on immediately. This was evident yesterday with Bottas' out lap and also after the SC went in, he was quicker than Vettel when the tyres were cold for that first lap and a half. My gut feeling was Vettel was significantly quicker than Bottas when they went onto mediums, he was the only car to be able to hound another car whilst on a similar age/compound tyre. Everybody else in this scenario couldn't get within 1.5 seconds of the car in front due to dirty air.

The undercut was just as strong in Bahrain too.

Vettel lead Bottas by 2.2 seconds.

Vettel pitted 2 laps before Bottas.

The gap was then 7.7 seconds.

Vettel gained 5.5 seconds in two laps.

That is also the reason Vettel jumped in the pits in Bahrain because the Mercedes boys were out in the pits ready to undercut him. If Bottas had pitted a lap before in Bahrain he would have lead the race there too. Its going to be who is bravest to pit earliest this year.

Old tyres are really slow this year, its why Kimi was going to win in Bahrain on his new SS's. The teams are trying to run 1 stoppers when 2 stoppers are quicker (in Bahrain and china at least)


I don't think a two stopper was quicker 8n Bahrain. Look at Ericsson.


The 2 stop was so much quicker in Bahrain that if Vettel had pitted with 6 laps to go he would had completed the race quicker than he actually did. Raikkonen was going to win the race if he didn't have his pit stop failure.


Then why did nobody on a one stopper loose out?

In China as well, no doubt Alonso gained from his one stop strategy.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:41 am 
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I think the thing with this season so far is we've had two races where on pace one looked dominant, Mercedes in Australia and Ferrari in China.

Then you've got pole for Ferrari in Bahrain but the quickest Mercedes driver has a penalty and is allegedly set up more for the race and in the race they seem quite even pace wise but with different strategies and Mercedes again admitting to withholding pace because they thought something else was going on. (They said they could've let Bottas go earlier and attack but didn't).

So you can see the problem as there's two clear cut, at least for me it's clear it's one each, but there's enough going on in Bahrain to leave it up in the air as the usually slower Mercedes driver should've won even with being held back.(Should've Danny Ricc'd him on the penultimate lap). And then there's Red Bull to consider who were convinced they would've won in Bahrain too so I'm not sure how we can be definitive about Bahrain for anybody.

Over all I'm going Ferrari>>Mercedes>>>Red Bull right now as I feel the Ferrari is more well rounded again but I couldn't really argue if someone said Oz for Merc, China for Ferrari and I don't know for Bahrain, which would leave them looking at things as pretty even.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:44 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No let's actually look at this. I've decided that this year I'm going to take posters such as yourself to task; even if it takes a couple of minutes to gather the relevant facts.

Here is a quote from my post from after the Australian Gran Prix:
"One thing is clear though. Ferrari are no match for Mercedes. The gap between them is substantial. At no point did Lewis really go 10/10 in this race and he had plenty of pace in hand over the Ferraris. Only the circuit prevented him from passing Vettel."
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14879&start=280

So this is what I actually wrote after the first race of the season. If I have a biased agenda as you seek to convey through your accusation, I am certainly not doing a very good job of supporting it am I?

You, on the other hand, were saying that Mercedes were fastest even after Bahrain. On the second page of this thread you can be seen suggesting that Mercedes intentionally tuned down their engine in Q3 in order to be able to gain political points in the negotiations over 2021 regulations. That's the extent you'll go to to push YOUR agenda..

In other words; stop projecting your own behavior onto me please.


You're taking yourself and this way to serious, ease up a bit.
I didn't claim Merc was holding back, I cited a Ricciardo answer joking about it, and had a laugh about it, even Marko said that Merc here playing.

You claim Ferrari is faster and that their engine is better now, I claim it's hard to judge, I don't believe it yet, Bottas had no problem at all undercutting Vettel and holding him off.

Don't tell me to ease up when you are the person who took things in this direction with your BS accusation. Pointing your finger at me and accusing me of what you actually do is behavior that reflects poorly on you. But we can leave that alone for now.

In terms of the cars themselves, the Ferrari has been stronger so far. There's not really a reasonable argument to the contrary. Australia is a wildcard circuit and as the first race, it is often not representative of the actual pecking order. Ferrari also made significant adjustments to their car after Australia which have clearly worked.

The reason I say they have more power is because the evidence suggests that they do. They have been faster than Mercedes in a straight line all year and, in China, they were also clearly quicker through the corners. They were much more planted through the fast corners like 7 and 13.

Again, Vettel was comfortably in control of the gap to Bottas when in front and breathing down his neck when behind. Even Raikkonen is able to comfortably outqualify the Mercs and would beat them in the races too if he could make a decent start and run a decent strategy. Considering his level of performance in the last 5 years, this is clear indication of Ferrari's strength.

Above all else though, it's the logical inconsistency from some posters that I have to call out. Last year Mercedes were sometimes only quicker in qualy and lost out to Ferrari during the race and yet people were saying that's enough to make Mercedes the better package. At races like spa they said getting pole was so important that it superseded being quicker during the race. Now we have a team that is faster both on Saturday's and Sundays but they're not convinced?

I don't agree with that argument at all. You can't claim you have the only reasonable view.

The Ferrari does look the better car at the moment, but the noticeable variations between each race means it's by no means a sure thing. Vettel wasn't exactly dropping Bottas in China, so their relative performances aren't that easy to judge, particularly since both were dropping Kimi. All in all the two cars look fairly comparable on race day.

In qualifying, Ferrari did have the edge in China, no contest. And I'd agree that an edge in qualifying translates to a significant advantage on race day, which puts Ferrari firmly in the hot seat (Bottas' excellent work notwithstanding, Vettel/Ferrari should never have allowed him to take the lead). In Bahrain, however, I think it was too close to call for sure. I still think the issues Hamilton is having at the moment are masking the Merc's true pace, while Bottas was a hair's breadth from pipping Kimi in Qualifying. I'd be happy to say advantage Ferrari but not that it's clear cut.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:45 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
I think the thing with this season so far is we've had two races where on pace one looked dominant, Mercedes in Australia and Ferrari in China.

Then you've got pole for Ferrari in Bahrain but the quickest Mercedes driver has a penalty and is allegedly set up more for the race and in the race they seem quite even pace wise but with different strategies and Mercedes again admitting to withholding pace because they thought something else was going on. (They said they could've let Bottas go earlier and attack but didn't).

So you can see the problem as there's two clear cut, at least for me it's clear it's one each, but there's enough going on in Bahrain to leave it up in the air as the usually slower Mercedes driver should've won even with being held back.(Should've Danny Ricc'd him on the penultimate lap). And then there's Red Bull to consider who were convinced they would've won in Bahrain too so I'm not sure how we can be definitive about Bahrain for anybody.

Over all I'm going Ferrari>>Mercedes>>>Red Bull right now as I feel the Ferrari is more well rounded again but I couldn't really argue if someone said Oz for Merc, China for Ferrari and I don't know for Bahrain, which would leave them looking at things as pretty even.

:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:47 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Don't tell me to ease up when you are the person who took things in this direction with your BS accusation. Pointing your finger at me and accusing me of what you actually do is behavior that reflects poorly on you. But we can leave that alone for now.

In terms of the cars themselves, the Ferrari has been stronger so far. There's not really a reasonable argument to the contrary. Australia is a wildcard circuit and as the first race, it is often not representative of the actual pecking order. Ferrari also made significant adjustments to their car after Australia which have clearly worked.

The reason I say they have more power is because the evidence suggests that they do. They have been faster than Mercedes in a straight line all year and, in China, they were also clearly quicker through the corners. They were much more planted through the fast corners like 7 and 13.

Again, Vettel was comfortably in control of the gap to Bottas when in front and breathing down his neck when behind. Even Raikkonen is able to comfortably outqualify the Mercs and would beat them in the races too if he could make a decent start and run a decent strategy. Considering his level of performance in the last 5 years, this is clear indication of Ferrari's strength.

Above all else though, it's the logical inconsistency from some posters that I have to call out. Last year Mercedes were sometimes only quicker in qualy and lost out to Ferrari during the race and yet people were saying that's enough to make Mercedes the better package. At races like spa they said getting pole was so important that it superseded being quicker during the race. Now we have a team that is faster both on Saturday's and Sundays but they're not convinced?


Do you really beleive that saying you have an agenda is "a bs agenda", really?

Again, Bottas had no problem undercutting Vettel and control the gap.
Ferrari was not quicker in the corners, go back and watch laps, no evidence for engine yet.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:50 am 
mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
3.5 seconds isn't that extreme for an undercut at all, especially on a high degradation track and with 1 second of it in the pit lane. But one thing in Mercedes favour over Ferrari is its ability to switch the tyres on immediately. This was evident yesterday with Bottas' out lap and also after the SC went in, he was quicker than Vettel when the tyres were cold for that first lap and a half. My gut feeling was Vettel was significantly quicker than Bottas when they went onto mediums, he was the only car to be able to hound another car whilst on a similar age/compound tyre. Everybody else in this scenario couldn't get within 1.5 seconds of the car in front due to dirty air.

The undercut was just as strong in Bahrain too.

Vettel lead Bottas by 2.2 seconds.

Vettel pitted 2 laps before Bottas.

The gap was then 7.7 seconds.

Vettel gained 5.5 seconds in two laps.

That is also the reason Vettel jumped in the pits in Bahrain because the Mercedes boys were out in the pits ready to undercut him. If Bottas had pitted a lap before in Bahrain he would have lead the race there too. Its going to be who is bravest to pit earliest this year.

Old tyres are really slow this year, its why Kimi was going to win in Bahrain on his new SS's. The teams are trying to run 1 stoppers when 2 stoppers are quicker (in Bahrain and china at least)


I don't think a two stopper was quicker 8n Bahrain. Look at Ericsson.


The 2 stop was so much quicker in Bahrain that if Vettel had pitted with 6 laps to go he would had completed the race quicker than he actually did. Raikkonen was going to win the race if he didn't have his pit stop failure.


Then why did nobody on a one stopper loose out?

In China as well, no doubt Alonso gained from his one stop strategy.


China is much more difficult to analyse due to the SC, track position was also a lot more important in China. A 2 stop would have been quicker in China but no necessarily better.

Bahrain, without any doubt - a 2 stopper was both better and quicker. Especially so because the leaders pitted so early for stop 1.

Vettels stints were 19 laps and 39 laps. Maybe a 1 stop would have worked if more evened out. But as soon as Vettel pitted on lap 19 it should have been a 2 stop race. Vettels pace at the end was stupendously slow and he was a sitting duck for anybody who 2 stopped.

The reason nobody lost out is because nobody ran a proper 2 stopper in Bahrain. Sainz done a 2 stopper but he did it in a weird way, he stopped twice in the first 28 laps then ran 30 laps to the end. The same with K-mag. The only one to run a proper 2 stopper was Kimi, to make the 2 stopper effective you need to be on the soft fresh tyre at the end and reeling in the leaders who will be on harder and worn tyres.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:57 am 
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AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Don't tell me to ease up when you are the person who took things in this direction with your BS accusation. Pointing your finger at me and accusing me of what you actually do is behavior that reflects poorly on you. But we can leave that alone for now.

In terms of the cars themselves, the Ferrari has been stronger so far. There's not really a reasonable argument to the contrary. Australia is a wildcard circuit and as the first race, it is often not representative of the actual pecking order. Ferrari also made significant adjustments to their car after Australia which have clearly worked.

The reason I say they have more power is because the evidence suggests that they do. They have been faster than Mercedes in a straight line all year and, in China, they were also clearly quicker through the corners. They were much more planted through the fast corners like 7 and 13.

Again, Vettel was comfortably in control of the gap to Bottas when in front and breathing down his neck when behind. Even Raikkonen is able to comfortably outqualify the Mercs and would beat them in the races too if he could make a decent start and run a decent strategy. Considering his level of performance in the last 5 years, this is clear indication of Ferrari's strength.

Above all else though, it's the logical inconsistency from some posters that I have to call out. Last year Mercedes were sometimes only quicker in qualy and lost out to Ferrari during the race and yet people were saying that's enough to make Mercedes the better package. At races like spa they said getting pole was so important that it superseded being quicker during the race. Now we have a team that is faster both on Saturday's and Sundays but they're not convinced?


Do you really beleive that saying you have an agenda is "a bs agenda", really?

Again, Bottas had no problem undercutting Vettel and control the gap.
Ferrari was not quicker in the corners, go back and watch laps, no evidence for engine yet.


Again you are ignoring everything that actually happened, controlled the gap :?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:01 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Don't tell me to ease up when you are the person who took things in this direction with your BS accusation. Pointing your finger at me and accusing me of what you actually do is behavior that reflects poorly on you. But we can leave that alone for now.

In terms of the cars themselves, the Ferrari has been stronger so far. There's not really a reasonable argument to the contrary. Australia is a wildcard circuit and as the first race, it is often not representative of the actual pecking order. Ferrari also made significant adjustments to their car after Australia which have clearly worked.

The reason I say they have more power is because the evidence suggests that they do. They have been faster than Mercedes in a straight line all year and, in China, they were also clearly quicker through the corners. They were much more planted through the fast corners like 7 and 13.

Again, Vettel was comfortably in control of the gap to Bottas when in front and breathing down his neck when behind. Even Raikkonen is able to comfortably outqualify the Mercs and would beat them in the races too if he could make a decent start and run a decent strategy. Considering his level of performance in the last 5 years, this is clear indication of Ferrari's strength.

Above all else though, it's the logical inconsistency from some posters that I have to call out. Last year Mercedes were sometimes only quicker in qualy and lost out to Ferrari during the race and yet people were saying that's enough to make Mercedes the better package. At races like spa they said getting pole was so important that it superseded being quicker during the race. Now we have a team that is faster both on Saturday's and Sundays but they're not convinced?


Do you really beleive that saying you have an agenda is "a bs agenda", really?

Again, Bottas had no problem undercutting Vettel and control the gap.
Ferrari was not quicker in the corners, go back and watch laps, no evidence for engine yet.


Again you are ignoring everything that actually happened, controlled the gap :?

What makes you think he didn't? He kept enough ahead of Vettel that the latter couldn't challenge, while trying to manage tyres that had to go all the way to the end


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:06 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Don't tell me to ease up when you are the person who took things in this direction with your BS accusation. Pointing your finger at me and accusing me of what you actually do is behavior that reflects poorly on you. But we can leave that alone for now.

In terms of the cars themselves, the Ferrari has been stronger so far. There's not really a reasonable argument to the contrary. Australia is a wildcard circuit and as the first race, it is often not representative of the actual pecking order. Ferrari also made significant adjustments to their car after Australia which have clearly worked.

The reason I say they have more power is because the evidence suggests that they do. They have been faster than Mercedes in a straight line all year and, in China, they were also clearly quicker through the corners. They were much more planted through the fast corners like 7 and 13.

Again, Vettel was comfortably in control of the gap to Bottas when in front and breathing down his neck when behind. Even Raikkonen is able to comfortably outqualify the Mercs and would beat them in the races too if he could make a decent start and run a decent strategy. Considering his level of performance in the last 5 years, this is clear indication of Ferrari's strength.

Above all else though, it's the logical inconsistency from some posters that I have to call out. Last year Mercedes were sometimes only quicker in qualy and lost out to Ferrari during the race and yet people were saying that's enough to make Mercedes the better package. At races like spa they said getting pole was so important that it superseded being quicker during the race. Now we have a team that is faster both on Saturday's and Sundays but they're not convinced?


Do you really beleive that saying you have an agenda is "a bs agenda", really?

Again, Bottas had no problem undercutting Vettel and control the gap.
Ferrari was not quicker in the corners, go back and watch laps, no evidence for engine yet.


Again you are ignoring everything that actually happened, controlled the gap :?


Then please enlighten me, Bottas had a lap 5 th faster than anything that Vettel had when he needed it, otherwise Vettel had an advantage on straights and Bottas in corners.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:09 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Don't tell me to ease up when you are the person who took things in this direction with your BS accusation. Pointing your finger at me and accusing me of what you actually do is behavior that reflects poorly on you. But we can leave that alone for now.

In terms of the cars themselves, the Ferrari has been stronger so far. There's not really a reasonable argument to the contrary. Australia is a wildcard circuit and as the first race, it is often not representative of the actual pecking order. Ferrari also made significant adjustments to their car after Australia which have clearly worked.

The reason I say they have more power is because the evidence suggests that they do. They have been faster than Mercedes in a straight line all year and, in China, they were also clearly quicker through the corners. They were much more planted through the fast corners like 7 and 13.

Again, Vettel was comfortably in control of the gap to Bottas when in front and breathing down his neck when behind. Even Raikkonen is able to comfortably outqualify the Mercs and would beat them in the races too if he could make a decent start and run a decent strategy. Considering his level of performance in the last 5 years, this is clear indication of Ferrari's strength.

Above all else though, it's the logical inconsistency from some posters that I have to call out. Last year Mercedes were sometimes only quicker in qualy and lost out to Ferrari during the race and yet people were saying that's enough to make Mercedes the better package. At races like spa they said getting pole was so important that it superseded being quicker during the race. Now we have a team that is faster both on Saturday's and Sundays but they're not convinced?


Do you really beleive that saying you have an agenda is "a bs agenda", really?

Again, Bottas had no problem undercutting Vettel and control the gap.
Ferrari was not quicker in the corners, go back and watch laps, no evidence for engine yet.


Again you are ignoring everything that actually happened, controlled the gap :?

What makes you think he didn't? He kept enough ahead of Vettel that the latter couldn't challenge, while trying to manage tyres that had to go all the way to the end


I'm not sure how the gap never getting above 1.4 seconds is controlling the race? That was after the pitstops top. Vettel got into the DRS because of Kimi but then stayed there for a coupleof laps longer . Controlling the race is over 3 seconds and apparently Vettel was holding back.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:09 pm 
Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Don't tell me to ease up when you are the person who took things in this direction with your BS accusation. Pointing your finger at me and accusing me of what you actually do is behavior that reflects poorly on you. But we can leave that alone for now.

In terms of the cars themselves, the Ferrari has been stronger so far. There's not really a reasonable argument to the contrary. Australia is a wildcard circuit and as the first race, it is often not representative of the actual pecking order. Ferrari also made significant adjustments to their car after Australia which have clearly worked.

The reason I say they have more power is because the evidence suggests that they do. They have been faster than Mercedes in a straight line all year and, in China, they were also clearly quicker through the corners. They were much more planted through the fast corners like 7 and 13.

Again, Vettel was comfortably in control of the gap to Bottas when in front and breathing down his neck when behind. Even Raikkonen is able to comfortably outqualify the Mercs and would beat them in the races too if he could make a decent start and run a decent strategy. Considering his level of performance in the last 5 years, this is clear indication of Ferrari's strength.

Above all else though, it's the logical inconsistency from some posters that I have to call out. Last year Mercedes were sometimes only quicker in qualy and lost out to Ferrari during the race and yet people were saying that's enough to make Mercedes the better package. At races like spa they said getting pole was so important that it superseded being quicker during the race. Now we have a team that is faster both on Saturday's and Sundays but they're not convinced?


Do you really beleive that saying you have an agenda is "a bs agenda", really?

Again, Bottas had no problem undercutting Vettel and control the gap.
Ferrari was not quicker in the corners, go back and watch laps, no evidence for engine yet.


Again you are ignoring everything that actually happened, controlled the gap :?

What makes you think he didn't? He kept enough ahead of Vettel that the latter couldn't challenge, while trying to manage tyres that had to go all the way to the end


You would never allow a car DRS if you had the pace to stop it. Vettel had DRS on Bottas for 4 consecutive laps.

Controlling the gap is usually considered to be what Hamilton did in Australia to Kimi. Built a 2.5-3.0 second lead and kept it there. The same as Vettel did to Bottas in the first stint in China.

China 2018 was more like Australia 2017 and Hamilton was not controlling the gap to Vettel there. He was holding Vettel up.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:12 pm 
AnRs wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Don't tell me to ease up when you are the person who took things in this direction with your BS accusation. Pointing your finger at me and accusing me of what you actually do is behavior that reflects poorly on you. But we can leave that alone for now.

In terms of the cars themselves, the Ferrari has been stronger so far. There's not really a reasonable argument to the contrary. Australia is a wildcard circuit and as the first race, it is often not representative of the actual pecking order. Ferrari also made significant adjustments to their car after Australia which have clearly worked.

The reason I say they have more power is because the evidence suggests that they do. They have been faster than Mercedes in a straight line all year and, in China, they were also clearly quicker through the corners. They were much more planted through the fast corners like 7 and 13.

Again, Vettel was comfortably in control of the gap to Bottas when in front and breathing down his neck when behind. Even Raikkonen is able to comfortably outqualify the Mercs and would beat them in the races too if he could make a decent start and run a decent strategy. Considering his level of performance in the last 5 years, this is clear indication of Ferrari's strength.

Above all else though, it's the logical inconsistency from some posters that I have to call out. Last year Mercedes were sometimes only quicker in qualy and lost out to Ferrari during the race and yet people were saying that's enough to make Mercedes the better package. At races like spa they said getting pole was so important that it superseded being quicker during the race. Now we have a team that is faster both on Saturday's and Sundays but they're not convinced?


Do you really beleive that saying you have an agenda is "a bs agenda", really?

Again, Bottas had no problem undercutting Vettel and control the gap.
Ferrari was not quicker in the corners, go back and watch laps, no evidence for engine yet.


Again you are ignoring everything that actually happened, controlled the gap :?


Then please enlighten me, Bottas had a lap 5 th faster than anything that Vettel had when he needed it, otherwise Vettel had an advantage on straights and Bottas in corners.


Bottas fastest lap was his out lap on new mediums. Vettel never got to do a representative out lap since he was in Bottas' dirty air.

Edit - sorry that is wrong. Bottas went quicker later in the race on lap 50. We don't really know what Vettel might have been putting in at that point since he had a damaged floor by then.


Last edited by lamo on Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 2889
AnRs wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Don't tell me to ease up when you are the person who took things in this direction with your BS accusation. Pointing your finger at me and accusing me of what you actually do is behavior that reflects poorly on you. But we can leave that alone for now.

In terms of the cars themselves, the Ferrari has been stronger so far. There's not really a reasonable argument to the contrary. Australia is a wildcard circuit and as the first race, it is often not representative of the actual pecking order. Ferrari also made significant adjustments to their car after Australia which have clearly worked.

The reason I say they have more power is because the evidence suggests that they do. They have been faster than Mercedes in a straight line all year and, in China, they were also clearly quicker through the corners. They were much more planted through the fast corners like 7 and 13.

Again, Vettel was comfortably in control of the gap to Bottas when in front and breathing down his neck when behind. Even Raikkonen is able to comfortably outqualify the Mercs and would beat them in the races too if he could make a decent start and run a decent strategy. Considering his level of performance in the last 5 years, this is clear indication of Ferrari's strength.

Above all else though, it's the logical inconsistency from some posters that I have to call out. Last year Mercedes were sometimes only quicker in qualy and lost out to Ferrari during the race and yet people were saying that's enough to make Mercedes the better package. At races like spa they said getting pole was so important that it superseded being quicker during the race. Now we have a team that is faster both on Saturday's and Sundays but they're not convinced?


Do you really beleive that saying you have an agenda is "a bs agenda", really?

Again, Bottas had no problem undercutting Vettel and control the gap.
Ferrari was not quicker in the corners, go back and watch laps, no evidence for engine yet.


Again you are ignoring everything that actually happened, controlled the gap :?


Then please enlighten me, Bottas had a lap 5 th faster than anything that Vettel had when he needed it, otherwise Vettel had an advantage on straights and Bottas in corners.


So one fast lap when the car is turned up to max makes the car have better race pace? If only. I will repeat from before, new mediums to old softs was 2 seconds difference, the Merc loves the mediums, undercut was big, Vettel pit entry error, 1 second slower pitstop. We will just ignore all that to say Mercedes matched Ferrari for race pace :lol:

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:16 pm 
F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Don't tell me to ease up when you are the person who took things in this direction with your BS accusation. Pointing your finger at me and accusing me of what you actually do is behavior that reflects poorly on you. But we can leave that alone for now.

In terms of the cars themselves, the Ferrari has been stronger so far. There's not really a reasonable argument to the contrary. Australia is a wildcard circuit and as the first race, it is often not representative of the actual pecking order. Ferrari also made significant adjustments to their car after Australia which have clearly worked.

The reason I say they have more power is because the evidence suggests that they do. They have been faster than Mercedes in a straight line all year and, in China, they were also clearly quicker through the corners. They were much more planted through the fast corners like 7 and 13.

Again, Vettel was comfortably in control of the gap to Bottas when in front and breathing down his neck when behind. Even Raikkonen is able to comfortably outqualify the Mercs and would beat them in the races too if he could make a decent start and run a decent strategy. Considering his level of performance in the last 5 years, this is clear indication of Ferrari's strength.

Above all else though, it's the logical inconsistency from some posters that I have to call out. Last year Mercedes were sometimes only quicker in qualy and lost out to Ferrari during the race and yet people were saying that's enough to make Mercedes the better package. At races like spa they said getting pole was so important that it superseded being quicker during the race. Now we have a team that is faster both on Saturday's and Sundays but they're not convinced?


Do you really beleive that saying you have an agenda is "a bs agenda", really?

Again, Bottas had no problem undercutting Vettel and control the gap.
Ferrari was not quicker in the corners, go back and watch laps, no evidence for engine yet.


Again you are ignoring everything that actually happened, controlled the gap :?


Then please enlighten me, Bottas had a lap 5 th faster than anything that Vettel had when he needed it, otherwise Vettel had an advantage on straights and Bottas in corners.


So one fast lap when the car is turned up to max makes the car have better race pace? If only. I will repeat from before, new mediums to old softs was 2 seconds difference, the Merc loves the mediums, undercut was big, Vettel pit entry error, 1 second slower pitstop. We will just ignore all that to say Mercedes matched Ferrari for race pace :lol:


I guess he is happy to ignore Vettel gaining 5.5 seconds on Bottas in the race beforehand by pitting 2 laps before him too? AnR? Or do you only bring up undercut pace if it suits you?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:19 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23679
lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Don't tell me to ease up when you are the person who took things in this direction with your BS accusation. Pointing your finger at me and accusing me of what you actually do is behavior that reflects poorly on you. But we can leave that alone for now.

In terms of the cars themselves, the Ferrari has been stronger so far. There's not really a reasonable argument to the contrary. Australia is a wildcard circuit and as the first race, it is often not representative of the actual pecking order. Ferrari also made significant adjustments to their car after Australia which have clearly worked.

The reason I say they have more power is because the evidence suggests that they do. They have been faster than Mercedes in a straight line all year and, in China, they were also clearly quicker through the corners. They were much more planted through the fast corners like 7 and 13.

Again, Vettel was comfortably in control of the gap to Bottas when in front and breathing down his neck when behind. Even Raikkonen is able to comfortably outqualify the Mercs and would beat them in the races too if he could make a decent start and run a decent strategy. Considering his level of performance in the last 5 years, this is clear indication of Ferrari's strength.

Above all else though, it's the logical inconsistency from some posters that I have to call out. Last year Mercedes were sometimes only quicker in qualy and lost out to Ferrari during the race and yet people were saying that's enough to make Mercedes the better package. At races like spa they said getting pole was so important that it superseded being quicker during the race. Now we have a team that is faster both on Saturday's and Sundays but they're not convinced?


Do you really beleive that saying you have an agenda is "a bs agenda", really?

Again, Bottas had no problem undercutting Vettel and control the gap.
Ferrari was not quicker in the corners, go back and watch laps, no evidence for engine yet.


Again you are ignoring everything that actually happened, controlled the gap :?

What makes you think he didn't? He kept enough ahead of Vettel that the latter couldn't challenge, while trying to manage tyres that had to go all the way to the end


You would never allow a car DRS if you had the pace to stop it. Vettel had DRS on Bottas for 4 consecutive laps.

Controlling the gap is usually considered to be what Hamilton did in Australia to Kimi. Built a 2.5-3.0 second lead and kept it there. The same as Vettel did to Bottas in the first stint in China.

China 2018 was more like Australia 2017 and Hamilton was not controlling the gap to Vettel there. He was holding Vettel up.

And yet Bottas managed to go noticeably quicker towards the end. He was managing his tyres


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:22 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5305
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No let's actually look at this. I've decided that this year I'm going to take posters such as yourself to task; even if it takes a couple of minutes to gather the relevant facts.

Here is a quote from my post from after the Australian Gran Prix:
"One thing is clear though. Ferrari are no match for Mercedes. The gap between them is substantial. At no point did Lewis really go 10/10 in this race and he had plenty of pace in hand over the Ferraris. Only the circuit prevented him from passing Vettel."
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14879&start=280

So this is what I actually wrote after the first race of the season. If I have a biased agenda as you seek to convey through your accusation, I am certainly not doing a very good job of supporting it am I?

You, on the other hand, were saying that Mercedes were fastest even after Bahrain. On the second page of this thread you can be seen suggesting that Mercedes intentionally tuned down their engine in Q3 in order to be able to gain political points in the negotiations over 2021 regulations. That's the extent you'll go to to push YOUR agenda..

In other words; stop projecting your own behavior onto me please.


You're taking yourself and this way to serious, ease up a bit.
I didn't claim Merc was holding back, I cited a Ricciardo answer joking about it, and had a laugh about it, even Marko said that Merc here playing.

You claim Ferrari is faster and that their engine is better now, I claim it's hard to judge, I don't believe it yet, Bottas had no problem at all undercutting Vettel and holding him off.

Don't tell me to ease up when you are the person who took things in this direction with your BS accusation. Pointing your finger at me and accusing me of what you actually do is behavior that reflects poorly on you. But we can leave that alone for now.

In terms of the cars themselves, the Ferrari has been stronger so far. There's not really a reasonable argument to the contrary. Australia is a wildcard circuit and as the first race, it is often not representative of the actual pecking order. Ferrari also made significant adjustments to their car after Australia which have clearly worked.

The reason I say they have more power is because the evidence suggests that they do. They have been faster than Mercedes in a straight line all year and, in China, they were also clearly quicker through the corners. They were much more planted through the fast corners like 7 and 13.

Again, Vettel was comfortably in control of the gap to Bottas when in front and breathing down his neck when behind. Even Raikkonen is able to comfortably outqualify the Mercs and would beat them in the races too if he could make a decent start and run a decent strategy. Considering his level of performance in the last 5 years, this is clear indication of Ferrari's strength.

Above all else though, it's the logical inconsistency from some posters that I have to call out. Last year Mercedes were sometimes only quicker in qualy and lost out to Ferrari during the race and yet people were saying that's enough to make Mercedes the better package. At races like spa they said getting pole was so important that it superseded being quicker during the race. Now we have a team that is faster both on Saturday's and Sundays but they're not convinced?

I don't agree with that argument at all. You can't claim you have the only reasonable view.

The Ferrari does look the better car at the moment, but the noticeable variations between each race means it's by no means a sure thing. Vettel wasn't exactly dropping Bottas in China, so their relative performances aren't that easy to judge, particularly since both were dropping Kimi. All in all the two cars look fairly comparable on race day.

In qualifying, Ferrari did have the edge in China, no contest. And I'd agree that an edge in qualifying translates to a significant advantage on race day, which puts Ferrari firmly in the hot seat (Bottas' excellent work notwithstanding, Vettel/Ferrari should never have allowed him to take the lead). In Bahrain, however, I think it was too close to call for sure. I still think the issues Hamilton is having at the moment are masking the Merc's true pace, while Bottas was a hair's breadth from pipping Kimi in Qualifying. I'd be happy to say advantage Ferrari but not that it's clear cut.

The problem Zoue is that this is inconsistent with your previous thinking. Last year, with far less convincing evidence, you decisively claimed that Mercedes was the car to beat. This year, Ferrari are ahead in a much more comprehensive way and yet you are still on the fence.

All Bottas did during the race was undercut Vettel due to Ferrari's miscalculation and then hold him up before the safety car shook up the order. Vettel was clearly faster.

One thing I agree with you on is that Lewis has not performed to his usual standard at all this year. He certainly performed well in Australia but he has been nowhere since then and really seems to be struggling in this car. A big part of that is a weakness that Mercedes have had since last year (and arguably before that) with regards to having a very narrow window of performance for their cars. That's not the whole thing though. I think Hamilton has struggled but not enough to create a half second deficit in qualy. That deficit is real and it's not based on oil burning or anything flukey. Ferrari are quicker at the moment. Only the most speculative of arguments can claim otherwise.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:22 pm 
[quote="Zoue"]

Did he? When? What laps?

Before Vettel damaged his floor. Bottas never pulled more than 1.8 seconds ahead of Vettel. He was 1,8 ahead for one single lap. Vettel was less than 1.6 behind him on all the other laps. When Max took Vettel out, Vettel was 1.2 seconds behind Bottas.

In total Vettel ran 1.6 seconds or less behind Bottas for 16 of the 17 laps he was behind him.


Last edited by lamo on Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23679
lamo wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Do you really beleive that saying you have an agenda is "a bs agenda", really?

Again, Bottas had no problem undercutting Vettel and control the gap.
Ferrari was not quicker in the corners, go back and watch laps, no evidence for engine yet.


Again you are ignoring everything that actually happened, controlled the gap :?


Then please enlighten me, Bottas had a lap 5 th faster than anything that Vettel had when he needed it, otherwise Vettel had an advantage on straights and Bottas in corners.


So one fast lap when the car is turned up to max makes the car have better race pace? If only. I will repeat from before, new mediums to old softs was 2 seconds difference, the Merc loves the mediums, undercut was big, Vettel pit entry error, 1 second slower pitstop. We will just ignore all that to say Mercedes matched Ferrari for race pace :lol:


I guess he is happy to ignore Vettel gaining 5.5 seconds on Bottas in the race beforehand by pitting 2 laps before him too? AnR? Or do you only bring up undercut pace if it suits you?

3.5 of those seconds was in Bottas' poor stop, like Vettel's poor one in China. It's not a reflection of relative pace of the cars


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:27 pm 
Zoue wrote:
3.5 of those seconds was in Bottas' poor stop, like Vettel's poor one in China. It's not a reflection of relative pace of the cars


No, 1.6 seconds off it was the stop in Bahrain. 0.9 of it was Vettels stop in China.

No its not a reflection of the cars, its a reflection of an old tyre vs a new one. In both circumstances the new tyre was worth about 2 seconds per lap.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 2889
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No let's actually look at this. I've decided that this year I'm going to take posters such as yourself to task; even if it takes a couple of minutes to gather the relevant facts.

Here is a quote from my post from after the Australian Gran Prix:
"One thing is clear though. Ferrari are no match for Mercedes. The gap between them is substantial. At no point did Lewis really go 10/10 in this race and he had plenty of pace in hand over the Ferraris. Only the circuit prevented him from passing Vettel."
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14879&start=280

So this is what I actually wrote after the first race of the season. If I have a biased agenda as you seek to convey through your accusation, I am certainly not doing a very good job of supporting it am I?

You, on the other hand, were saying that Mercedes were fastest even after Bahrain. On the second page of this thread you can be seen suggesting that Mercedes intentionally tuned down their engine in Q3 in order to be able to gain political points in the negotiations over 2021 regulations. That's the extent you'll go to to push YOUR agenda..

In other words; stop projecting your own behavior onto me please.


You're taking yourself and this way to serious, ease up a bit.
I didn't claim Merc was holding back, I cited a Ricciardo answer joking about it, and had a laugh about it, even Marko said that Merc here playing.

You claim Ferrari is faster and that their engine is better now, I claim it's hard to judge, I don't believe it yet, Bottas had no problem at all undercutting Vettel and holding him off.

Don't tell me to ease up when you are the person who took things in this direction with your BS accusation. Pointing your finger at me and accusing me of what you actually do is behavior that reflects poorly on you. But we can leave that alone for now.

In terms of the cars themselves, the Ferrari has been stronger so far. There's not really a reasonable argument to the contrary. Australia is a wildcard circuit and as the first race, it is often not representative of the actual pecking order. Ferrari also made significant adjustments to their car after Australia which have clearly worked.

The reason I say they have more power is because the evidence suggests that they do. They have been faster than Mercedes in a straight line all year and, in China, they were also clearly quicker through the corners. They were much more planted through the fast corners like 7 and 13.

Again, Vettel was comfortably in control of the gap to Bottas when in front and breathing down his neck when behind. Even Raikkonen is able to comfortably outqualify the Mercs and would beat them in the races too if he could make a decent start and run a decent strategy. Considering his level of performance in the last 5 years, this is clear indication of Ferrari's strength.

Above all else though, it's the logical inconsistency from some posters that I have to call out. Last year Mercedes were sometimes only quicker in qualy and lost out to Ferrari during the race and yet people were saying that's enough to make Mercedes the better package. At races like spa they said getting pole was so important that it superseded being quicker during the race. Now we have a team that is faster both on Saturday's and Sundays but they're not convinced?

I don't agree with that argument at all. You can't claim you have the only reasonable view.

The Ferrari does look the better car at the moment, but the noticeable variations between each race means it's by no means a sure thing. Vettel wasn't exactly dropping Bottas in China, so their relative performances aren't that easy to judge, particularly since both were dropping Kimi. All in all the two cars look fairly comparable on race day.

In qualifying, Ferrari did have the edge in China, no contest. And I'd agree that an edge in qualifying translates to a significant advantage on race day, which puts Ferrari firmly in the hot seat (Bottas' excellent work notwithstanding, Vettel/Ferrari should never have allowed him to take the lead). In Bahrain, however, I think it was too close to call for sure. I still think the issues Hamilton is having at the moment are masking the Merc's true pace, while Bottas was a hair's breadth from pipping Kimi in Qualifying. I'd be happy to say advantage Ferrari but not that it's clear cut.

The problem Zoue is that this is inconsistent with your previous thinking. Last year, with far less convincing evidence, you decisively claimed that Mercedes was the car to beat. This year, Ferrari are ahead in a much more comprehensive way and yet you are still on the fence.

All Bottas did during the race was undercut Vettel due to Ferrari's miscalculation and then hold him up before the safety car shook up the order. Vettel was clearly faster.

One thing I agree with you on is that Lewis has not performed to his usual standard at all this year. He certainly performed well in Australia but he has been nowhere since then and really seems to be struggling in this car. A big part of that is a weakness that Mercedes have had since last year (and arguably before that) with regards to having a very narrow window of performance for their cars. That's not the whole thing though. I think Hamilton has struggled but not enough to create a half second deficit in qualy. That deficit is real and it's not based on oil burning or anything flukey. Ferrari are quicker at the moment. Only the most speculative of arguments can claim otherwise.


Going by last season if Mercedes got pole like Ferrari did at China it would have been Mercedes is the better race car, this season it seems to have changed :?

Also moving away from Kimi, he was stuck behind Max.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


Last edited by F1_Ernie on Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23679
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No let's actually look at this. I've decided that this year I'm going to take posters such as yourself to task; even if it takes a couple of minutes to gather the relevant facts.

Here is a quote from my post from after the Australian Gran Prix:
"One thing is clear though. Ferrari are no match for Mercedes. The gap between them is substantial. At no point did Lewis really go 10/10 in this race and he had plenty of pace in hand over the Ferraris. Only the circuit prevented him from passing Vettel."
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14879&start=280

So this is what I actually wrote after the first race of the season. If I have a biased agenda as you seek to convey through your accusation, I am certainly not doing a very good job of supporting it am I?

You, on the other hand, were saying that Mercedes were fastest even after Bahrain. On the second page of this thread you can be seen suggesting that Mercedes intentionally tuned down their engine in Q3 in order to be able to gain political points in the negotiations over 2021 regulations. That's the extent you'll go to to push YOUR agenda..

In other words; stop projecting your own behavior onto me please.


You're taking yourself and this way to serious, ease up a bit.
I didn't claim Merc was holding back, I cited a Ricciardo answer joking about it, and had a laugh about it, even Marko said that Merc here playing.

You claim Ferrari is faster and that their engine is better now, I claim it's hard to judge, I don't believe it yet, Bottas had no problem at all undercutting Vettel and holding him off.

Don't tell me to ease up when you are the person who took things in this direction with your BS accusation. Pointing your finger at me and accusing me of what you actually do is behavior that reflects poorly on you. But we can leave that alone for now.

In terms of the cars themselves, the Ferrari has been stronger so far. There's not really a reasonable argument to the contrary. Australia is a wildcard circuit and as the first race, it is often not representative of the actual pecking order. Ferrari also made significant adjustments to their car after Australia which have clearly worked.

The reason I say they have more power is because the evidence suggests that they do. They have been faster than Mercedes in a straight line all year and, in China, they were also clearly quicker through the corners. They were much more planted through the fast corners like 7 and 13.

Again, Vettel was comfortably in control of the gap to Bottas when in front and breathing down his neck when behind. Even Raikkonen is able to comfortably outqualify the Mercs and would beat them in the races too if he could make a decent start and run a decent strategy. Considering his level of performance in the last 5 years, this is clear indication of Ferrari's strength.

Above all else though, it's the logical inconsistency from some posters that I have to call out. Last year Mercedes were sometimes only quicker in qualy and lost out to Ferrari during the race and yet people were saying that's enough to make Mercedes the better package. At races like spa they said getting pole was so important that it superseded being quicker during the race. Now we have a team that is faster both on Saturday's and Sundays but they're not convinced?

I don't agree with that argument at all. You can't claim you have the only reasonable view.

The Ferrari does look the better car at the moment, but the noticeable variations between each race means it's by no means a sure thing. Vettel wasn't exactly dropping Bottas in China, so their relative performances aren't that easy to judge, particularly since both were dropping Kimi. All in all the two cars look fairly comparable on race day.

In qualifying, Ferrari did have the edge in China, no contest. And I'd agree that an edge in qualifying translates to a significant advantage on race day, which puts Ferrari firmly in the hot seat (Bottas' excellent work notwithstanding, Vettel/Ferrari should never have allowed him to take the lead). In Bahrain, however, I think it was too close to call for sure. I still think the issues Hamilton is having at the moment are masking the Merc's true pace, while Bottas was a hair's breadth from pipping Kimi in Qualifying. I'd be happy to say advantage Ferrari but not that it's clear cut.

The problem Zoue is that this is inconsistent with your previous thinking. Last year, with far less convincing evidence, you decisively claimed that Mercedes was the car to beat. This year, Ferrari are ahead in a much more comprehensive way and yet you are still on the fence.

All Bottas did during the race was undercut Vettel due to Ferrari's miscalculation and then hold him up before the safety car shook up the order. Vettel was clearly faster.

One thing I agree with you on is that Lewis has not performed to his usual standard at all this year. He certainly performed well in Australia but he has been nowhere since then and really seems to be struggling in this car. A big part of that is a weakness that Mercedes have had since last year (and arguably before that) with regards to having a very narrow window of performance for their cars. That's not the whole thing though. I think Hamilton has struggled but not enough to create a half second deficit in qualy. That deficit is real and it's not based on oil burning or anything flukey. Ferrari are quicker at the moment. Only the most speculative of arguments can claim otherwise.

Actually, if you read my posts you'll see I'm happy to state Ferrari look like being ahead currently, so that's not really true. I've only added that I feel Lewis being missing may have skewed things a bit. There's no inconsistency there. You wouldn't judge the pace of the Ferrari if only Kimi turned up to the party, would you?

Lotus49 put it fairly eloquently a few posts earlier. There have been two races with a clear cut advantage for one car (in qualifying, at least), and one where things were not so straightforward. And, as I also stated last year, qualifying advantage translates into race advantage. I don't see anything there that is inconsistent.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:31 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:19 am
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Wonder if we've had this discussion if Merc had won all 3 races so far, and that wouldn't have taken that much for them to do.

To claim that they are down on power, slower in corners is obviously wrong, they overheat the softer tyres, but they switch on the tyres faster.

It's still a fact that Vettel couldn't produce the lap times that Bottas did, you can laugh or claim whatever you want to throw smokescreens over it.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:33 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
3.5 of those seconds was in Bottas' poor stop, like Vettel's poor one in China. It's not a reflection of relative pace of the cars


No, 1.6 seconds off it was the stop in Bahrain. 0.9 of it was Vettels stop in China.

No its not a reflection of the cars, its a reflection of an old tyre vs a new one. In both circumstances the new tyre was worth about 2 seconds per lap.

No, 3.5s were in the stop, by which I'm including the whole stop. Bottas lost nearly 2s on his outlap. That's all part of the stop. If he purposely put on the slower tyre, knowing it would mean he lost time in the exit, then he clearly wasn't going for any kind of undercut but was making a strategic call so he could put pressure on Vettel later in the race. So a totally different situation to China, then


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:33 pm 
sandman1347 wrote:
One thing I agree with you on is that Lewis has not performed to his usual standard at all this year. He certainly performed well in Australia but he has been nowhere since then and really seems to be struggling in this car. A big part of that is a weakness that Mercedes have had since last year (and arguably before that) with regards to having a very narrow window of performance for their cars. That's not the whole thing though. I think Hamilton has struggled but not enough to create a half second deficit in qualy. That deficit is real and it's not based on oil burning or anything flukey. Ferrari are quicker at the moment. Only the most speculative of arguments can claim otherwise.



Both of the number 1's are considerably slower this year. Vettel had about 0.35 over Kimi last year, he has lost about 0.30 of that this year. But its still putting him marginally ahead.

Hamilton had about 0.25 over Bottas last year, he has lost the same amount as Vettel but that is putting him fractionally behind Bottas.

So if anyone is here is saying "Well Bottas out qualified Lewis by 0.050 surely the Mercedes has more in it?" then equally they should be saying "Vettel only out qualified Kimi by 0.050, surely the Ferrari has more in it" as well??


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:34 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:

Did he? When? What laps?

Before Vettel damaged his floor. Bottas never pulled more than 1.8 seconds ahead of Vettel. He was 1,8 ahead for one single lap. Vettel was less than 1.6 behind him on all the other laps. When Max took Vettel out, Vettel was 1.2 seconds behind Bottas.

In total Vettel ran 1.6 seconds or less behind Bottas for 16 of the 17 laps he was behind him.

I'm not entirely clear what you are quoting here, so difficult for me to answer.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:35 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
Wonder if we've had this discussion if Merc had won all 3 races so far, and that wouldn't have taken that much for them to do.

To claim that they are down on power, slower in corners is obviously wrong, they overheat the softer tyres, but they switch on the tyres faster.

It's still a fact that Vettel couldn't produce the lap times that Bottas did, you can laugh or claim whatever you want to throw smokescreens over it.


How can you put in the same times when your in the dirty air compared to someone in clear air :lol: Not rocket science.

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Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:36 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Wonder if we've had this discussion if Merc had won all 3 races so far, and that wouldn't have taken that much for them to do.

To claim that they are down on power, slower in corners is obviously wrong, they overheat the softer tyres, but they switch on the tyres faster.

It's still a fact that Vettel couldn't produce the lap times that Bottas did, you can laugh or claim whatever you want to throw smokescreens over it.


How can you put in the same times when your in the dirty air compared to someone in clear air :lol: Not rocket science.


He never produced a lap time like Bottas even when in clean air.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:37 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:

You're taking yourself and this way to serious, ease up a bit.
I didn't claim Merc was holding back, I cited a Ricciardo answer joking about it, and had a laugh about it, even Marko said that Merc here playing.

You claim Ferrari is faster and that their engine is better now, I claim it's hard to judge, I don't believe it yet, Bottas had no problem at all undercutting Vettel and holding him off.

Don't tell me to ease up when you are the person who took things in this direction with your BS accusation. Pointing your finger at me and accusing me of what you actually do is behavior that reflects poorly on you. But we can leave that alone for now.

In terms of the cars themselves, the Ferrari has been stronger so far. There's not really a reasonable argument to the contrary. Australia is a wildcard circuit and as the first race, it is often not representative of the actual pecking order. Ferrari also made significant adjustments to their car after Australia which have clearly worked.

The reason I say they have more power is because the evidence suggests that they do. They have been faster than Mercedes in a straight line all year and, in China, they were also clearly quicker through the corners. They were much more planted through the fast corners like 7 and 13.

Again, Vettel was comfortably in control of the gap to Bottas when in front and breathing down his neck when behind. Even Raikkonen is able to comfortably outqualify the Mercs and would beat them in the races too if he could make a decent start and run a decent strategy. Considering his level of performance in the last 5 years, this is clear indication of Ferrari's strength.

Above all else though, it's the logical inconsistency from some posters that I have to call out. Last year Mercedes were sometimes only quicker in qualy and lost out to Ferrari during the race and yet people were saying that's enough to make Mercedes the better package. At races like spa they said getting pole was so important that it superseded being quicker during the race. Now we have a team that is faster both on Saturday's and Sundays but they're not convinced?

I don't agree with that argument at all. You can't claim you have the only reasonable view.

The Ferrari does look the better car at the moment, but the noticeable variations between each race means it's by no means a sure thing. Vettel wasn't exactly dropping Bottas in China, so their relative performances aren't that easy to judge, particularly since both were dropping Kimi. All in all the two cars look fairly comparable on race day.

In qualifying, Ferrari did have the edge in China, no contest. And I'd agree that an edge in qualifying translates to a significant advantage on race day, which puts Ferrari firmly in the hot seat (Bottas' excellent work notwithstanding, Vettel/Ferrari should never have allowed him to take the lead). In Bahrain, however, I think it was too close to call for sure. I still think the issues Hamilton is having at the moment are masking the Merc's true pace, while Bottas was a hair's breadth from pipping Kimi in Qualifying. I'd be happy to say advantage Ferrari but not that it's clear cut.

The problem Zoue is that this is inconsistent with your previous thinking. Last year, with far less convincing evidence, you decisively claimed that Mercedes was the car to beat. This year, Ferrari are ahead in a much more comprehensive way and yet you are still on the fence.

All Bottas did during the race was undercut Vettel due to Ferrari's miscalculation and then hold him up before the safety car shook up the order. Vettel was clearly faster.

One thing I agree with you on is that Lewis has not performed to his usual standard at all this year. He certainly performed well in Australia but he has been nowhere since then and really seems to be struggling in this car. A big part of that is a weakness that Mercedes have had since last year (and arguably before that) with regards to having a very narrow window of performance for their cars. That's not the whole thing though. I think Hamilton has struggled but not enough to create a half second deficit in qualy. That deficit is real and it's not based on oil burning or anything flukey. Ferrari are quicker at the moment. Only the most speculative of arguments can claim otherwise.

Actually, if you read my posts you'll see I'm happy to state Ferrari look like being ahead currently, so that's not really true. I've only added that I feel Lewis being missing may have skewed things a bit. There's no inconsistency there. You wouldn't judge the pace of the Ferrari if only Kimi turned up to the party, would you?

Lotus49 put it fairly eloquently a few posts earlier. There have been two races with a clear cut advantage for one car (in qualifying, at least), and one where things were not so straightforward. And, as I also stated last year, qualifying advantage translates into race advantage. I don't see anything there that is inconsistent.

Fair enough but I would add that chronology matters here. That Mercedes seemed clearly stronger in Australia a month ago does not carry the same weight as Ferrari's strength a couple of days ago. The fact that we know Ferrari made a significant update to their floor after Australia also helps flesh this out. I just think that Ferrari had yet to really unlock their car in Australia. Their car is a big change from the 2017 car while the Mercedes is more of a gradual evolution. The Ferrari seems to clearly have the higher ceiling this year IMO.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:37 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Wonder if we've had this discussion if Merc had won all 3 races so far, and that wouldn't have taken that much for them to do.

To claim that they are down on power, slower in corners is obviously wrong, they overheat the softer tyres, but they switch on the tyres faster.

It's still a fact that Vettel couldn't produce the lap times that Bottas did, you can laugh or claim whatever you want to throw smokescreens over it.


How can you put in the same times when your in the dirty air compared to someone in clear air :lol: Not rocket science.


He never produced a lap time like Bottas even when in clean air.


With a damaged car and completely ruined tyres :lol:

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2016: 24th place
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Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:39 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:

You're taking yourself and this way to serious, ease up a bit.
I didn't claim Merc was holding back, I cited a Ricciardo answer joking about it, and had a laugh about it, even Marko said that Merc here playing.

You claim Ferrari is faster and that their engine is better now, I claim it's hard to judge, I don't believe it yet, Bottas had no problem at all undercutting Vettel and holding him off.

Don't tell me to ease up when you are the person who took things in this direction with your BS accusation. Pointing your finger at me and accusing me of what you actually do is behavior that reflects poorly on you. But we can leave that alone for now.

In terms of the cars themselves, the Ferrari has been stronger so far. There's not really a reasonable argument to the contrary. Australia is a wildcard circuit and as the first race, it is often not representative of the actual pecking order. Ferrari also made significant adjustments to their car after Australia which have clearly worked.

The reason I say they have more power is because the evidence suggests that they do. They have been faster than Mercedes in a straight line all year and, in China, they were also clearly quicker through the corners. They were much more planted through the fast corners like 7 and 13.

Again, Vettel was comfortably in control of the gap to Bottas when in front and breathing down his neck when behind. Even Raikkonen is able to comfortably outqualify the Mercs and would beat them in the races too if he could make a decent start and run a decent strategy. Considering his level of performance in the last 5 years, this is clear indication of Ferrari's strength.

Above all else though, it's the logical inconsistency from some posters that I have to call out. Last year Mercedes were sometimes only quicker in qualy and lost out to Ferrari during the race and yet people were saying that's enough to make Mercedes the better package. At races like spa they said getting pole was so important that it superseded being quicker during the race. Now we have a team that is faster both on Saturday's and Sundays but they're not convinced?

I don't agree with that argument at all. You can't claim you have the only reasonable view.

The Ferrari does look the better car at the moment, but the noticeable variations between each race means it's by no means a sure thing. Vettel wasn't exactly dropping Bottas in China, so their relative performances aren't that easy to judge, particularly since both were dropping Kimi. All in all the two cars look fairly comparable on race day.

In qualifying, Ferrari did have the edge in China, no contest. And I'd agree that an edge in qualifying translates to a significant advantage on race day, which puts Ferrari firmly in the hot seat (Bottas' excellent work notwithstanding, Vettel/Ferrari should never have allowed him to take the lead). In Bahrain, however, I think it was too close to call for sure. I still think the issues Hamilton is having at the moment are masking the Merc's true pace, while Bottas was a hair's breadth from pipping Kimi in Qualifying. I'd be happy to say advantage Ferrari but not that it's clear cut.

The problem Zoue is that this is inconsistent with your previous thinking. Last year, with far less convincing evidence, you decisively claimed that Mercedes was the car to beat. This year, Ferrari are ahead in a much more comprehensive way and yet you are still on the fence.

All Bottas did during the race was undercut Vettel due to Ferrari's miscalculation and then hold him up before the safety car shook up the order. Vettel was clearly faster.

One thing I agree with you on is that Lewis has not performed to his usual standard at all this year. He certainly performed well in Australia but he has been nowhere since then and really seems to be struggling in this car. A big part of that is a weakness that Mercedes have had since last year (and arguably before that) with regards to having a very narrow window of performance for their cars. That's not the whole thing though. I think Hamilton has struggled but not enough to create a half second deficit in qualy. That deficit is real and it's not based on oil burning or anything flukey. Ferrari are quicker at the moment. Only the most speculative of arguments can claim otherwise.


Going by last season if Mercedes got pole like Ferrari did at China it would have been Mercedes is the better race car, this season it seems to have changed :?

Also moving away from Kimi, he was stuck behind Max.


Except Bahrain last year which was generally given to Ferrari from what I remember. Despite a similar gap in qualifying for Mercedes,Mercedes screwing up Bottas's tyre's in the race and Lewis generally being a bit off that weekend (Error with drs in Q and outqualified, jumped at the start,needed Bottas moved over in the race and a self inflicted penalty).

Yet it still was said the Ferrari was the better car that weekend by the majority on here so it's not like inconsistencies are anything new to be fair.

China was clearly Ferrari for me though fwiw.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:39 pm 
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
3.5 of those seconds was in Bottas' poor stop, like Vettel's poor one in China. It's not a reflection of relative pace of the cars


No, 1.6 seconds off it was the stop in Bahrain. 0.9 of it was Vettels stop in China.

No its not a reflection of the cars, its a reflection of an old tyre vs a new one. In both circumstances the new tyre was worth about 2 seconds per lap.

No, 3.5s were in the stop, by which I'm including the whole stop. Bottas lost nearly 2s on his outlap. That's all part of the stop. If he purposely put on the slower tyre, knowing it would mean he lost time in the exit, then he clearly wasn't going for any kind of undercut but was making a strategic call so he could put pressure on Vettel later in the race. So a totally different situation to China, then


That is not correct.
Bottas total pit lane time in Bahrain was 26.1 seconds. That is pit entry to Exit. Vettels was 24.5. He lost 1.6 seconds in the stop.

But lets make the new tyre thing a whole lot simpler;

Vettels 3 laps before pitting;

36.5
36.4
36.6

Vettels 3 laps after putting on new tyres;
34.7
34.5
34.6

New tyres were worth 2 seconds. Isn't that clear?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:40 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Wonder if we've had this discussion if Merc had won all 3 races so far, and that wouldn't have taken that much for them to do.

To claim that they are down on power, slower in corners is obviously wrong, they overheat the softer tyres, but they switch on the tyres faster.

It's still a fact that Vettel couldn't produce the lap times that Bottas did, you can laugh or claim whatever you want to throw smokescreens over it.


How can you put in the same times when your in the dirty air compared to someone in clear air :lol: Not rocket science.


He never produced a lap time like Bottas even when in clean air.


With a damaged car and completely ruined tyres :lol:


Did you even watch it? He never had clean air before that? Honestly...


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:41 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Don't tell me to ease up when you are the person who took things in this direction with your BS accusation. Pointing your finger at me and accusing me of what you actually do is behavior that reflects poorly on you. But we can leave that alone for now.

In terms of the cars themselves, the Ferrari has been stronger so far. There's not really a reasonable argument to the contrary. Australia is a wildcard circuit and as the first race, it is often not representative of the actual pecking order. Ferrari also made significant adjustments to their car after Australia which have clearly worked.

The reason I say they have more power is because the evidence suggests that they do. They have been faster than Mercedes in a straight line all year and, in China, they were also clearly quicker through the corners. They were much more planted through the fast corners like 7 and 13.

Again, Vettel was comfortably in control of the gap to Bottas when in front and breathing down his neck when behind. Even Raikkonen is able to comfortably outqualify the Mercs and would beat them in the races too if he could make a decent start and run a decent strategy. Considering his level of performance in the last 5 years, this is clear indication of Ferrari's strength.

Above all else though, it's the logical inconsistency from some posters that I have to call out. Last year Mercedes were sometimes only quicker in qualy and lost out to Ferrari during the race and yet people were saying that's enough to make Mercedes the better package. At races like spa they said getting pole was so important that it superseded being quicker during the race. Now we have a team that is faster both on Saturday's and Sundays but they're not convinced?

I don't agree with that argument at all. You can't claim you have the only reasonable view.

The Ferrari does look the better car at the moment, but the noticeable variations between each race means it's by no means a sure thing. Vettel wasn't exactly dropping Bottas in China, so their relative performances aren't that easy to judge, particularly since both were dropping Kimi. All in all the two cars look fairly comparable on race day.

In qualifying, Ferrari did have the edge in China, no contest. And I'd agree that an edge in qualifying translates to a significant advantage on race day, which puts Ferrari firmly in the hot seat (Bottas' excellent work notwithstanding, Vettel/Ferrari should never have allowed him to take the lead). In Bahrain, however, I think it was too close to call for sure. I still think the issues Hamilton is having at the moment are masking the Merc's true pace, while Bottas was a hair's breadth from pipping Kimi in Qualifying. I'd be happy to say advantage Ferrari but not that it's clear cut.

The problem Zoue is that this is inconsistent with your previous thinking. Last year, with far less convincing evidence, you decisively claimed that Mercedes was the car to beat. This year, Ferrari are ahead in a much more comprehensive way and yet you are still on the fence.

All Bottas did during the race was undercut Vettel due to Ferrari's miscalculation and then hold him up before the safety car shook up the order. Vettel was clearly faster.

One thing I agree with you on is that Lewis has not performed to his usual standard at all this year. He certainly performed well in Australia but he has been nowhere since then and really seems to be struggling in this car. A big part of that is a weakness that Mercedes have had since last year (and arguably before that) with regards to having a very narrow window of performance for their cars. That's not the whole thing though. I think Hamilton has struggled but not enough to create a half second deficit in qualy. That deficit is real and it's not based on oil burning or anything flukey. Ferrari are quicker at the moment. Only the most speculative of arguments can claim otherwise.

Actually, if you read my posts you'll see I'm happy to state Ferrari look like being ahead currently, so that's not really true. I've only added that I feel Lewis being missing may have skewed things a bit. There's no inconsistency there. You wouldn't judge the pace of the Ferrari if only Kimi turned up to the party, would you?

Lotus49 put it fairly eloquently a few posts earlier. There have been two races with a clear cut advantage for one car (in qualifying, at least), and one where things were not so straightforward. And, as I also stated last year, qualifying advantage translates into race advantage. I don't see anything there that is inconsistent.

Fair enough but I would add that chronology matters here. That Mercedes seemed clearly stronger in Australia a month ago does not carry the same weight as Ferrari's strength a couple of days ago. The fact that we know Ferrari made a significant update to their floor after Australia also helps flesh this out. I just think that Ferrari had yet to really unlock their car in Australia. Their car is a big change from the 2017 car while the Mercedes is more of a gradual evolution. The Ferrari seems to clearly have the higher ceiling this year IMO.


This is pretty much why I went with Ferrari, it just feels the better prospect right now and the swing from Mercedes since Melbourne is a bit alarming.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:41 pm 
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lamo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
One thing I agree with you on is that Lewis has not performed to his usual standard at all this year. He certainly performed well in Australia but he has been nowhere since then and really seems to be struggling in this car. A big part of that is a weakness that Mercedes have had since last year (and arguably before that) with regards to having a very narrow window of performance for their cars. That's not the whole thing though. I think Hamilton has struggled but not enough to create a half second deficit in qualy. That deficit is real and it's not based on oil burning or anything flukey. Ferrari are quicker at the moment. Only the most speculative of arguments can claim otherwise.



Both of the number 1's are considerably slower this year. Vettel had about 0.35 over Kimi last year, he has lost about 0.30 of that this year. But its still putting him marginally ahead.

Hamilton had about 0.25 over Bottas last year, he has lost the same amount as Vettel but that is putting him fractionally behind Bottas.

So if anyone is here is saying "Well Bottas out qualified Lewis by 0.050 surely the Mercedes has more in it?" then equally they should be saying "Vettel only out qualified Kimi by 0.050, surely the Ferrari has more in it" as well??

Why? On race pace Kimi is clearly inferior to Vettel, so business as usual. Not so with Merc.

It's possible Bottas has upped his game, but Hamilton is clearly struggling, so Occam's Razor suggests the main variable is Hamilton. At Ferrari, Kimi can't translate his qualifying competitiveness to the race, which is consistent with previous years. So it looks as though Vettel is showing the true pace of the car.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:42 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Don't tell me to ease up when you are the person who took things in this direction with your BS accusation. Pointing your finger at me and accusing me of what you actually do is behavior that reflects poorly on you. But we can leave that alone for now.

In terms of the cars themselves, the Ferrari has been stronger so far. There's not really a reasonable argument to the contrary. Australia is a wildcard circuit and as the first race, it is often not representative of the actual pecking order. Ferrari also made significant adjustments to their car after Australia which have clearly worked.

The reason I say they have more power is because the evidence suggests that they do. They have been faster than Mercedes in a straight line all year and, in China, they were also clearly quicker through the corners. They were much more planted through the fast corners like 7 and 13.

Again, Vettel was comfortably in control of the gap to Bottas when in front and breathing down his neck when behind. Even Raikkonen is able to comfortably outqualify the Mercs and would beat them in the races too if he could make a decent start and run a decent strategy. Considering his level of performance in the last 5 years, this is clear indication of Ferrari's strength.

Above all else though, it's the logical inconsistency from some posters that I have to call out. Last year Mercedes were sometimes only quicker in qualy and lost out to Ferrari during the race and yet people were saying that's enough to make Mercedes the better package. At races like spa they said getting pole was so important that it superseded being quicker during the race. Now we have a team that is faster both on Saturday's and Sundays but they're not convinced?

I don't agree with that argument at all. You can't claim you have the only reasonable view.

The Ferrari does look the better car at the moment, but the noticeable variations between each race means it's by no means a sure thing. Vettel wasn't exactly dropping Bottas in China, so their relative performances aren't that easy to judge, particularly since both were dropping Kimi. All in all the two cars look fairly comparable on race day.

In qualifying, Ferrari did have the edge in China, no contest. And I'd agree that an edge in qualifying translates to a significant advantage on race day, which puts Ferrari firmly in the hot seat (Bottas' excellent work notwithstanding, Vettel/Ferrari should never have allowed him to take the lead). In Bahrain, however, I think it was too close to call for sure. I still think the issues Hamilton is having at the moment are masking the Merc's true pace, while Bottas was a hair's breadth from pipping Kimi in Qualifying. I'd be happy to say advantage Ferrari but not that it's clear cut.

The problem Zoue is that this is inconsistent with your previous thinking. Last year, with far less convincing evidence, you decisively claimed that Mercedes was the car to beat. This year, Ferrari are ahead in a much more comprehensive way and yet you are still on the fence.

All Bottas did during the race was undercut Vettel due to Ferrari's miscalculation and then hold him up before the safety car shook up the order. Vettel was clearly faster.

One thing I agree with you on is that Lewis has not performed to his usual standard at all this year. He certainly performed well in Australia but he has been nowhere since then and really seems to be struggling in this car. A big part of that is a weakness that Mercedes have had since last year (and arguably before that) with regards to having a very narrow window of performance for their cars. That's not the whole thing though. I think Hamilton has struggled but not enough to create a half second deficit in qualy. That deficit is real and it's not based on oil burning or anything flukey. Ferrari are quicker at the moment. Only the most speculative of arguments can claim otherwise.


Going by last season if Mercedes got pole like Ferrari did at China it would have been Mercedes is the better race car, this season it seems to have changed :?

Also moving away from Kimi, he was stuck behind Max.


Except Bahrain last year which was generally given to Ferrari from what I remember. Despite a similar gap in qualifying for Mercedes,Mercedes screwing up Bottas's tyre's in the race and Lewis generally being a bit off that weekend (Error with drs in Q and outqualified, jumped at the start,needed Bottas moved over in the race and a self inflicted penalty).

Yet it still was said the Ferrari was the better car that weekend by the majority on here so it's not like inconsistencies are anything new to be fair.

China was clearly Ferrari for me though fwiw.


Your earlier comment regarding the races so far I agree with :thumbup:

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2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
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