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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:36 pm 
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Whatever it is, it can’t be the ICE, as Kimi is still using Spec 1 on his car


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:40 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Lojik wrote:
Rockie wrote:
So you thought there was a point behind this discussion asides from Mercedes fans wanting to say the Ferrari is the more powerful engine.


Or Ferrari fans desepate to paint the Merc as the better engine? And that's the whole problem isn't it. So many see any discussion here as Ferrari/Vettel vs Merc/Hamilton, and everything they say is based on that position. There actually is an interesting conversation to be had about the improvements to both teams PUs and who is pulling ahead or falling behind at any given point. Trouble is that any discussion like that is drowned under a sea of partisan crap.


I'd say more of people not paying attention to what is happening as Ferrari tries to take control of F1.

Now people focus on the engine saying Ferrari powered teams means the Ferrari engine is best neglecting the fact that asides the engine Haas basically take all help allowed within the rules from Ferrari.

As for Sauber Ferrari let Simone Resta join them as technical director without gardening leave since Alfa Romeo has invested in them, Resta designed the current Ferrari watch where the Sauber ends up this year and where it starts next year, it's equivalent to Redbull sending Dan Fallows to Toro Rosso as TD.


Or Mercedes sending Paddy Lowe to Williams? :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:48 pm 
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Who will have the better package for Hungary, Belgium, Italy and Singapore? My feeling is that Ferrari will have close-ish but clear edge at all 4. I can see them torching Mercedes in Belgium and Italy and outmanouvering them at Hungary and Singapore. Mercedes should have made more of the stretch from Canada to Silverstone.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:52 pm 
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Hungary should be a Ferrari track going off recent history, as should Singapore.

They seem quick on the straights this year too which may help at Italy although historically Italy has been comfortable Mercedes ground, so who knows?

Belgium I feel will be pretty equal. These last two races have been too close to call and I don't think Belgium has any characteristics which would heavily point to one over the other.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:55 pm 
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Ferrari should have the better package in Hungary and Singapore, Wolff was saying this on Sky. Problem for Mercedes is there's the potential of having the 3rd best car at Monaco, Hungary and Singapore. That can make a real difference in a season.

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2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:05 pm 
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Somehow the Ferrari 0.5s advantage didn't show up in the race as Mercedes claimed, it looked like the Mercedes engine in Hamilton's car had it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:06 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Somehow the Ferrari 0.5s advantage didn't show up in the race as Mercedes claimed, it looked like the Mercedes engine in Hamilton's car had it.


Pretty sure I saw Vettel stroll out to a comfortable lead over Bottas? If the race stayed dry he was heading for a simple win.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:08 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Somehow the Ferrari 0.5s advantage didn't show up in the race as Mercedes claimed, it looked like the Mercedes engine in Hamilton's car had it.


Pretty sure I saw Vettel stroll out to a comfortable lead over Bottas? If the race stayed dry he was heading for a simple win.


Oh but the Haas and Sauber he was flying past weren't Ferrari powered?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:16 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Somehow the Ferrari 0.5s advantage didn't show up in the race as Mercedes claimed, it looked like the Mercedes engine in Hamilton's car had it.


Pretty sure I saw Vettel stroll out to a comfortable lead over Bottas? If the race stayed dry he was heading for a simple win.


Oh but the Haas and Sauber he was flying past weren't Ferrari powered?


In DRS zones in a car that can lap seconds quicker.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:29 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Somehow the Ferrari 0.5s advantage didn't show up in the race as Mercedes claimed, it looked like the Mercedes engine in Hamilton's car had it.


Pretty sure I saw Vettel stroll out to a comfortable lead over Bottas? If the race stayed dry he was heading for a simple win.


Oh but the Haas and Sauber he was flying past weren't Ferrari powered?


In DRS zones in a car that can lap seconds quicker.


But the claim was the Ferrari engine was 0.5s faster on the straights.

None of that showed up with Haas and Sauber on faster tyres.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:32 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Somehow the Ferrari 0.5s advantage didn't show up in the race as Mercedes claimed, it looked like the Mercedes engine in Hamilton's car had it.


Sunday is a different day, as it has been for the last 2 years.

But the Ferrari gained circa 0.4 on the straights on Mercedes. It’s not a claim, it’s a fact seen on the GPS. That could be due to driver skill, car setup or numerous things and not just engine but it did gain that amount on the straight.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:32 pm 
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Ferrari is clearly ahead of Mercedes right now. Very worrisome for Merc and co. They got lucky today, but won't happen a lot going forward.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:48 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Somehow the Ferrari 0.5s advantage didn't show up in the race as Mercedes claimed, it looked like the Mercedes engine in Hamilton's car had it.


In race they are even I think. Kimi said he was not able to gain on behind Bottas. He is still using old spec or some old components on his engine. But the main advantage is probably in qualifying. Somehow Ferrari party mode is now far superior to Mercedes 8O

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:17 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Somehow the Ferrari 0.5s advantage didn't show up in the race as Mercedes claimed, it looked like the Mercedes engine in Hamilton's car had it.


Sunday is a different day, as it has been for the last 2 years.

But the Ferrari gained circa 0.4 on the straights on Mercedes. It’s not a claim, it’s a fact seen on the GPS. That could be due to driver skill, car setup or numerous things and not just engine but it did gain that amount on the straight.


Yet Kimi could not get near Bottas?

Also the Mercedes gains on the Ferrari in high speed corners, it's all to do with car setup as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:35 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Somehow the Ferrari 0.5s advantage didn't show up in the race as Mercedes claimed, it looked like the Mercedes engine in Hamilton's car had it.


Sunday is a different day, as it has been for the last 2 years.

But the Ferrari gained circa 0.4 on the straights on Mercedes. It’s not a claim, it’s a fact seen on the GPS. That could be due to driver skill, car setup or numerous things and not just engine but it did gain that amount on the straight.


Yet Kimi could not get near Bottas?

Also the Mercedes gains on the Ferrari in high speed corners, it's all to do with car setup as well.


Couldn’t he?

Gap from Bottas to Kimi when Kimi pitted was 2.5 seconds after 13 laps. Considering the gap was 1.3 at the end of lap one due to spread, he lost 1.2 seconds in 12 laps. Using his older spec engine.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:28 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Ferrari is clearly ahead of Mercedes right now. Very worrisome for Merc and co. They got lucky today, but won't happen a lot going forward.


Indeed. They are better in low speed corners and they have an advantage in straight line speed, probably due to superior deployment. Will be interesting to see what happens in Hungary, Spa and Monza.

I personally think that Ferrari will outperform them in Hungary and Monza, but Spa will be 50/50. IMO Merc still holds an advantage in high speed cornering, but that is it right now.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:37 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Somehow the Ferrari 0.5s advantage didn't show up in the race as Mercedes claimed, it looked like the Mercedes engine in Hamilton's car had it.


Sunday is a different day, as it has been for the last 2 years.

But the Ferrari gained circa 0.4 on the straights on Mercedes. It’s not a claim, it’s a fact seen on the GPS. That could be due to driver skill, car setup or numerous things and not just engine but it did gain that amount on the straight.


Yet Kimi could not get near Bottas?

Also the Mercedes gains on the Ferrari in high speed corners, it's all to do with car setup as well.


Couldn’t he?

Gap from Bottas to Kimi when Kimi pitted was 2.5 seconds after 13 laps. Considering the gap was 1.3 at the end of lap one due to spread, he lost 1.2 seconds in 12 laps. Using his older spec engine.


Any car that has 0.5 on the straights will be getting into DRS constantly.

Its hogwash from Mercedes at most both engines are on par, Ferrari has always had good traction from slow speed corners hence why in previous years they beat Mercedes at tracks like hungaroring and Singapore.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:38 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Somehow the Ferrari 0.5s advantage didn't show up in the race as Mercedes claimed, it looked like the Mercedes engine in Hamilton's car had it.


Sunday is a different day, as it has been for the last 2 years.

But the Ferrari gained circa 0.4 on the straights on Mercedes. It’s not a claim, it’s a fact seen on the GPS. That could be due to driver skill, car setup or numerous things and not just engine but it did gain that amount on the straight.


Yet Kimi could not get near Bottas?

Also the Mercedes gains on the Ferrari in high speed corners, it's all to do with car setup as well.


Couldn’t he?

Gap from Bottas to Kimi when Kimi pitted was 2.5 seconds after 13 laps. Considering the gap was 1.3 at the end of lap one due to spread, he lost 1.2 seconds in 12 laps. Using his older spec engine.


Any car that has 0.5 on the straights will be getting into DRS constantly.

Its hogwash from Mercedes at most both engines are on par, Ferrari has always had good traction from slow speed corners hence why in previous years they beat Mercedes at tracks like hungaroring and Singapore.


Make your mind up. You said Kimi couldn’t get near, he was 2.5 seconds back. Does that mean Bottas could not get near Vettel as he was 3.5 seconds back at the same time.

As you well know, there is a lot more to lap time than straight line speed and time spent on straights. Manor used to post highest top speeds in 2014 and be 5 seconds a lap off the pace...


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:04 pm 
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What a load of cow manure!

Vettel "Prone" to mistakes??!?!?! Really??!?!?!?

Besides his angry brain fart in Baku last year, please list all his /mistakes. The only other time I can remember him making a mistake that was this costly (notice I didn't say his mistake was significant) was losing it in Canada allowing Button to take the greatest win f his entire career.

As for Verstappen being obviously quicker than Ricciardo, I disagree. They each tend to best one another pretty well. Verstappen is more aggressive in pushing the envelope whereas Ricciardo will feel the pressure mounting and put together quick laps to catch the guy ahead up and then drop his Kamikaze move (not one that I approve of but it's proved effective for him. I feel Verstappen has a better awareness for what his car can do all-around, but he struggles at times to remain level headed and costs himself and others in the way of contact. His chop blocking is also something that needs to be curbed because he's been lucky to have not been dealt penalties for unnecessarily dangerous tactics. Ricciardo however seems to always be improving little increments in different areas and he's a very formidably quick guys for anyone to deal with in the same car.

Massa was also not "prone" to making mistakes. Sure he had a few, but to suggest he was mistake prone is also ridiculous.

Ironically…

2017: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVnr42ksp4A
2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGWuPTxVN8k

One could call that "Prone" especially with it being at the same point of the same track 2 years in succession.

And then there's this for good measure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7goXvwbvwlg


Alonso & Hamilton are regarded as 2 of the very best drivers in the world and even they've made mistakes. It's the nature of the beast and it happens to EVERYONE.
I think it's time to stop making these kinds of totally baseless comments.

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HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:47 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
What a load of cow manure!

Vettel "Prone" to mistakes??!?!?! Really??!?!?!?

Besides his angry brain fart in Baku last year, please list all his /mistakes. The only other time I can remember him making a mistake that was this costly (notice I didn't say his mistake was significant) was losing it in Canada allowing Button to take the greatest win f his entire career.

Vettel certainly was prone to mistakes at one point in his career - between 2009 and 2010, I think he threw away more good results than anyone else. However, he's pretty much got over that, and now makes only fairly rare mistakes.

That said, I do believe he makes the most costly mistakes of any of the 'big three', and he makes all of them when under pressure. That says a certain something about his character that isn't true for Hamilton.

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PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:00 am 
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Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
What a load of cow manure!

Vettel "Prone" to mistakes??!?!?! Really??!?!?!?

Besides his angry brain fart in Baku last year, please list all his /mistakes. The only other time I can remember him making a mistake that was this costly (notice I didn't say his mistake was significant) was losing it in Canada allowing Button to take the greatest win f his entire career.

Vettel certainly was prone to mistakes at one point in his career - between 2009 and 2010, I think he threw away more good results than anyone else. However, he's pretty much got over that, and now makes only fairly rare mistakes.

That said, I do believe he makes the most costly mistakes of any of the 'big three', and he makes all of them when under pressure. That says a certain something about his character that isn't true for Hamilton.

Name them please because I can’t remember more than maybe 5 at the very most and his screw up with Webber was one of them, but one born from immature impetuousness. Since then I can remember maybe 4 more incidents.

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BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:24 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
What a load of cow manure!

Vettel "Prone" to mistakes??!?!?! Really??!?!?!?

Besides his angry brain fart in Baku last year, please list all his /mistakes. The only other time I can remember him making a mistake that was this costly (notice I didn't say his mistake was significant) was losing it in Canada allowing Button to take the greatest win f his entire career.

Vettel certainly was prone to mistakes at one point in his career - between 2009 and 2010, I think he threw away more good results than anyone else. However, he's pretty much got over that, and now makes only fairly rare mistakes.

That said, I do believe he makes the most costly mistakes of any of the 'big three', and he makes all of them when under pressure. That says a certain something about his character that isn't true for Hamilton.

Name them please because I can’t remember more than maybe 5 at the very most and his screw up with Webber was one of them, but one born from immature impetuousness. Since then I can remember maybe 4 more incidents.


Crash with Kubica in Australia 09 and then hit the wall. Spun off in Malaysia 09. Spun into Button in Belgium 2010.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:25 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
What a load of cow manure!

Vettel "Prone" to mistakes??!?!?! Really??!?!?!?

Besides his angry brain fart in Baku last year, please list all his /mistakes. The only other time I can remember him making a mistake that was this costly (notice I didn't say his mistake was significant) was losing it in Canada allowing Button to take the greatest win f his entire career

Massa was also not "prone" to making mistakes. Sure he had a few, but to suggest he was mistake prone is also ridiculous.
.


During the last 20 races or so, Vettel has thrown away 6 (!) potential wins or podiums through driver mistakes:
Baku 17
Singapore 17
Mexico 17
Baku 18
France 18
Germany 18
(not counting strong underperformances like Monza 17 qualifying)

So, in more than a quarter of those races, he made a costly mistake. For the level of a championship contender as well as for an experienced multi-wdc that is an unprecedented lot and too much.

And, come on, Massa is the definition of being mistake-prone.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:30 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Vettel certainly was prone to mistakes at one point in his career - between 2009 and 2010, I think he threw away more good results than anyone else. However, he's pretty much got over that, and now makes only fairly rare mistakes.

That said, I do believe he makes the most costly mistakes of any of the 'big three', and he makes all of them when under pressure. That says a certain something about his character that isn't true for Hamilton.

Name them please because I can’t remember more than maybe 5 at the very most and his screw up with Webber was one of them, but one born from immature impetuousness. Since then I can remember maybe 4 more incidents.

Here's the ones I can remember:

Crashed into Button at Spa (2010)
Crashed into Kubica in Australia (2009)
Crashed on his own in Monaco (2009)
First-corner incident at Silverstone (2010)
And of course most famously, crashed into Webber in Turkey (2010)
He also spun out in Malaysia 2009, but the conditions were pretty much unraceable that day.

That's six major accidents leading to either retirement or a huge loss of points in just two years. Since then I agree he's improved - hence why I said 'However, he's pretty much got over that, and now makes only fairly rare mistakes.' - but he's certainly had his fair share in the Ferrari years.

His entire race in Mexico (2015)
Slowing mid-corner after being hit by Kvyat in Russia, leading to his retirement (2016)
Chopping drivers at the start of the race, often leading to contact (numerous, but caused his retirement in Malaysia 2016 and arguably Singapore 2017)
Baku (enough said)
Hitting Hamilton in Mexico (2017), although that ended up not costing him in the net
And now crashing from the lead in Germany

It's not a giant number of serious mistakes over the course of three years, no. But in the same time period, how many race-ending (or even seriously costly) errors has Hamilton made? Maybe hitting Rosberg in Spain (2016) if you blame him for that, but I'm not thinking of any others.

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TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:53 am 
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Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Vettel certainly was prone to mistakes at one point in his career - between 2009 and 2010, I think he threw away more good results than anyone else. However, he's pretty much got over that, and now makes only fairly rare mistakes.

That said, I do believe he makes the most costly mistakes of any of the 'big three', and he makes all of them when under pressure. That says a certain something about his character that isn't true for Hamilton.

Name them please because I can’t remember more than maybe 5 at the very most and his screw up with Webber was one of them, but one born from immature impetuousness. Since then I can remember maybe 4 more incidents.

Here's the ones I can remember:

Crashed into Button at Spa (2010)
Crashed into Kubica in Australia (2009)
Crashed on his own in Monaco (2009)
First-corner incident at Silverstone (2010)
And of course most famously, crashed into Webber in Turkey (2010)
He also spun out in Malaysia 2009, but the conditions were pretty much unraceable that day.

That's six major accidents leading to either retirement or a huge loss of points in just two years. Since then I agree he's improved - hence why I said 'However, he's pretty much got over that, and now makes only fairly rare mistakes.' - but he's certainly had his fair share in the Ferrari years.

His entire race in Mexico (2015)
Slowing mid-corner after being hit by Kvyat in Russia, leading to his retirement (2016)
Chopping drivers at the start of the race, often leading to contact (numerous, but caused his retirement in Malaysia 2016 and arguably Singapore 2017)
Baku (enough said)
Hitting Hamilton in Mexico (2017), although that ended up not costing him in the net
And now crashing from the lead in Germany

It's not a giant number of serious mistakes over the course of three years, no. But in the same time period, how many race-ending (or even seriously costly) errors has Hamilton made? Maybe hitting Rosberg in Spain (2016) if you blame him for that, but I'm not thinking of any others.


This is very funny even in a race where he was hit twice by Kyvat that goes down as a Vettel error? wow!

Going by this maybe do Hamilton for 2010 and 2011 and lets see how this compares to Vettel.

This year he has paid dearly for his mistakes whilst his rival has not that simple.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:03 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Vettel certainly was prone to mistakes at one point in his career - between 2009 and 2010, I think he threw away more good results than anyone else. However, he's pretty much got over that, and now makes only fairly rare mistakes.

That said, I do believe he makes the most costly mistakes of any of the 'big three', and he makes all of them when under pressure. That says a certain something about his character that isn't true for Hamilton.

Name them please because I can’t remember more than maybe 5 at the very most and his screw up with Webber was one of them, but one born from immature impetuousness. Since then I can remember maybe 4 more incidents.

Here's the ones I can remember:

Crashed into Button at Spa (2010)
Crashed into Kubica in Australia (2009)
Crashed on his own in Monaco (2009)
First-corner incident at Silverstone (2010)
And of course most famously, crashed into Webber in Turkey (2010)
He also spun out in Malaysia 2009, but the conditions were pretty much unraceable that day.

That's six major accidents leading to either retirement or a huge loss of points in just two years. Since then I agree he's improved - hence why I said 'However, he's pretty much got over that, and now makes only fairly rare mistakes.' - but he's certainly had his fair share in the Ferrari years.

His entire race in Mexico (2015)
Slowing mid-corner after being hit by Kvyat in Russia, leading to his retirement (2016)
Chopping drivers at the start of the race, often leading to contact (numerous, but caused his retirement in Malaysia 2016 and arguably Singapore 2017)
Baku (enough said)
Hitting Hamilton in Mexico (2017), although that ended up not costing him in the net
And now crashing from the lead in Germany

It's not a giant number of serious mistakes over the course of three years, no. But in the same time period, how many race-ending (or even seriously costly) errors has Hamilton made? Maybe hitting Rosberg in Spain (2016) if you blame him for that, but I'm not thinking of any others.


This is very funny even in a race where he was hit twice by Kyvat that goes down as a Vettel error? wow!

Going by this maybe do Hamilton for 2010 and 2011 and lets see how this compares to Vettel.

This year he has paid dearly for his mistakes whilst his rival has not that simple.


Hamilton hasn't made any mistakes. Hamilton has just suffered from reliability, being hit and poor strategy. Vettel has made mistakes in Baku, France and Germany.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:12 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:

Hamilton hasn't made any mistakes. Hamilton has just suffered from reliability, being hit and poor strategy. Vettel has made mistakes in Baku, France and Germany.


In Baku Hamilton kept locking up behind Vettel he had to pit, without the safety car he would have finished behind Bottas, but the one time Vettel locked up he was penalised heavily for it.

In France same again a lock up and it damaged his wing and he had to pit dead last and made his way up, compare that to Hamilton at Silverstone he was hit dead last without pitting and a safety car to boot.

Germany same as well little mistake nothing out of the ordinary and it's a place the car cant be recovered, Leclerc had a full spin and continued others went off as well and continued.

Let's not go back to china where he was hit as well.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:37 am 
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Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

Hamilton hasn't made any mistakes. Hamilton has just suffered from reliability, being hit and poor strategy. Vettel has made mistakes in Baku, France and Germany.


In Baku Hamilton kept locking up behind Vettel he had to pit, without the safety car he would have finished behind Bottas, but the one time Vettel locked up he was penalised heavily for it.

In France same again a lock up and it damaged his wing and he had to pit dead last and made his way up, compare that to Hamilton at Silverstone he was hit dead last without pitting and a safety car to boot.

Germany same as well little mistake nothing out of the ordinary and it's a place the car cant be recovered, Leclerc had a full spin and continued others went off as well and continued.

Let's not go back to china where he was hit as well.


Yep they're all just one little mistake. Trouble is if you keep making just one little mistake over and over again and your rivals don't it seriously compromises your championship chances. Vettel used to be bullet proof but for a tier one driver he has made far too many errors since the start of 2016.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:54 am 
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Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

Hamilton hasn't made any mistakes. Hamilton has just suffered from reliability, being hit and poor strategy. Vettel has made mistakes in Baku, France and Germany.


In Baku Hamilton kept locking up behind Vettel he had to pit, without the safety car he would have finished behind Bottas, but the one time Vettel locked up he was penalised heavily for it.

In France same again a lock up and it damaged his wing and he had to pit dead last and made his way up, compare that to Hamilton at Silverstone he was hit dead last without pitting and a safety car to boot.

Germany same as well little mistake nothing out of the ordinary and it's a place the car cant be recovered, Leclerc had a full spin and continued others went off as well and continued.

Let's not go back to china where he was hit as well.


They are all mistakes which cost him a bundle of points. So Hamilton locked up a few times at Baku, it didn't send him to to back of the grid or end his race. Vettel decided to dive bomb while the SC just ended and the cars are bunched up, any mistakes and you will be heavily punished.

Hamilton got hit in Silverstone by another car, Vettel was the one who hit another car causing his own car damage and sent himself to the back of the grid while damaging a rivals team car.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:23 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
What a load of cow manure!

Vettel "Prone" to mistakes??!?!?! Really??!?!?!?

Besides his angry brain fart in Baku last year, please list all his /mistakes. The only other time I can remember him making a mistake that was this costly (notice I didn't say his mistake was significant) was losing it in Canada allowing Button to take the greatest win f his entire career

Massa was also not "prone" to making mistakes. Sure he had a few, but to suggest he was mistake prone is also ridiculous.
.


During the last 20 races or so, Vettel has thrown away 6 (!) potential wins or podiums through driver mistakes:
Baku 17
Singapore 17
Mexico 17
Baku 18
France 18
Germany 18
(not counting strong underperformances like Monza 17 qualifying)

So, in more than a quarter of those races, he made a costly mistake. For the level of a championship contender as well as for an experienced multi-wdc that is an unprecedented lot and too much.

And, come on, Massa is the definition of being mistake-prone.


I would say 5, France he was going to be 3rd after turn 1, the win was a long shot.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:29 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

Hamilton hasn't made any mistakes. Hamilton has just suffered from reliability, being hit and poor strategy. Vettel has made mistakes in Baku, France and Germany.


In Baku Hamilton kept locking up behind Vettel he had to pit, without the safety car he would have finished behind Bottas, but the one time Vettel locked up he was penalised heavily for it.

In France same again a lock up and it damaged his wing and he had to pit dead last and made his way up, compare that to Hamilton at Silverstone he was hit dead last without pitting and a safety car to boot.

Germany same as well little mistake nothing out of the ordinary and it's a place the car cant be recovered, Leclerc had a full spin and continued others went off as well and continued.

Let's not go back to china where he was hit as well.


Yep they're all just one little mistake. Trouble is if you keep making just one little mistake over and over again and your rivals don't it seriously compromises your championship chances. Vettel used to be bullet proof but for a tier one driver he has made far too many errors since the start of 2016.


Yes basically every mistake is a little mistake, big mistakes are rare. But its more about the consequences. Hamilton made a little mistake at pit entry in China 2007 that lost him a title.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:37 pm 
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[quote="Rockie]

[/quote]

This is very funny even in a race where he was hit twice by Kyvat that goes down as a Vettel error? wow!

Going by this maybe do Hamilton for 2010 and 2011 and lets see how this compares to Vettel.

This year he has paid dearly for his mistakes whilst his rival has not that simple.[/quote]

Hamiltons 2011 was shocking for mistakes but 2010 was not it was one of his most error free years. The only acatual error I can rememeber was running wide in Korea in the wet and Alonso taking the lead. He also had 2 50/50 collisions late in the season when he had to start to take risks to stay im the WDC fight.

2011 was not a title fight, I don’t think he would have been taking those risks in a WDC fight. Hamilton certainly learned a lot from 2011 as did Vettel from 2008-2010.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:55 am 
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I wonder whether or not Ferrari's massive boost in performance has anything to do with bringing in Laurant Mekies the former FIA official who basically had access to all of the teams' cars and engines. Not making an accusation but just speculating a little. Their package is very impressive this season indeed and their customers are outshining the Mercedes customers. Been a while since the Merc wasn't the engine to buy.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:47 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I wonder whether or not Ferrari's massive boost in performance has anything to do with bringing in Laurant Mekies the former FIA official who basically had access to all of the teams' cars and engines. Not making an accusation but just speculating a little. Their package is very impressive this season indeed and their customers are outshining the Mercedes customers. Been a while since the Merc wasn't the engine to buy.


You are not making an accusation, but you are not far off I think. I believe he was a race and a safety director (overseeing the Halo for example), not only in F1, but across many disciplines. I am not really sure how that gave him the insights of the inner workings of the other teams secrets with their power units.

Also, he has stopped being involved with F1 duties since March, with his departure being in June (it must have happened now):

https://www.fia.com/news/safety-directo ... -leave-fia

He is going to join Ferrari in September, so this doesn't add either.

In any case, even if he had access to such material, I do not think he can remember every paper that he glimpses from every team from months and months ago and definitely is not working for Ferrari just yet.

In any case, Renault hasn't had any luck with their FIA guy!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:18 pm 
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It seems to me, that Ferrari now have the best PU, but Merc are a bit kinder on the tyres.

Could it just be that the extra Ferrari power is hurting the tyres more than previously?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:10 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I wonder whether or not Ferrari's massive boost in performance has anything to do with bringing in Laurant Mekies the former FIA official who basically had access to all of the teams' cars and engines. Not making an accusation but just speculating a little. Their package is very impressive this season indeed and their customers are outshining the Mercedes customers. Been a while since the Merc wasn't the engine to buy.


You are not making an accusation, but you are not far off I think. I believe he was a race and a safety director (overseeing the Halo for example), not only in F1, but across many disciplines. I am not really sure how that gave him the insights of the inner workings of the other teams secrets with their power units.

Also, he has stopped being involved with F1 duties since March, with his departure being in June (it must have happened now):

https://www.fia.com/news/safety-directo ... -leave-fia

He is going to join Ferrari in September, so this doesn't add either.

In any case, even if he had access to such material, I do not think he can remember every paper that he glimpses from every team from months and months ago and definitely is not working for Ferrari just yet.

In any case, Renault hasn't had any luck with their FIA guy!

Lol, I go out of my way to point out that I am not making an accusation and yet get a response as though I am accusing them of something. I'm not.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:16 pm 
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Another theory being floated on the Ferrari gains over at Autosport (sorry for posting so many Autosport links)

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/137625/is-a-blown-wing-trick-part-of-ferrari-advantage

If I understand correctly It is being suggested that Ferrari may be using the waste gate gasses and the exhaust to stall the rear wing, creating less drag on the straights. This is in part perhaps supported by the new waste gate outlet pipes mounting trialed for a session on Vettel's car at Hockenhiem. What I don't get if this is true, is how the customer teams are also benefiting, as this strikes me at least as being more of an individual package type deal.

The only real facts we have are that Ferrari and the customer teams now seem to be faster on straights. In my mind this is achieved in two ways, increased power or reduced drag. If as Brundle was has suggested, it is not the ERS system and therefore not an increase in power, I suppose we are left with decreased drag on the straights, like wing stalling, or F-Duct type gimmicks.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:18 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
Another theory being floated on the Ferrari gains over at Autosport (sorry for posting so many Autosport links)

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/137625/is-a-blown-wing-trick-part-of-ferrari-advantage

If I understand correctly It is being suggested that Ferrari may be using the waste gate gasses and the exhaust to stall the rear wing, creating less drag on the straights. This is in part perhaps supported by the new waste gate outlet pipes mounting trialed for a session on Vettel's car at Hockenhiem. What I don't get if this is true, is how the customer teams are also benefiting, as this strikes me at least as being more of an individual package type deal.

The only real facts we have are that Ferrari and the customer teams now seem to be faster on straights. In my mind this is achieved in two ways, increased power or reduced drag. If as Brundle was has suggested, it is not the ERS system and therefore not an increase in power, I suppose we are left with decreased drag on the straights, like wing stalling, or F-Duct type gimmicks.

But would this theory explain the customer teams' performance gains? They certainly don't have the integrated chassis that this would require.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:20 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
What I don't get if this is true, is how the customer teams are also benefiting, as this strikes me at least as being more of an individual package type deal.


:]


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:28 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I wonder whether or not Ferrari's massive boost in performance has anything to do with bringing in Laurant Mekies the former FIA official who basically had access to all of the teams' cars and engines. Not making an accusation but just speculating a little. Their package is very impressive this season indeed and their customers are outshining the Mercedes customers. Been a while since the Merc wasn't the engine to buy.


You are not making an accusation, but you are not far off I think. I believe he was a race and a safety director (overseeing the Halo for example), not only in F1, but across many disciplines. I am not really sure how that gave him the insights of the inner workings of the other teams secrets with their power units.

Also, he has stopped being involved with F1 duties since March, with his departure being in June (it must have happened now):

https://www.fia.com/news/safety-directo ... -leave-fia

He is going to join Ferrari in September, so this doesn't add either.

In any case, even if he had access to such material, I do not think he can remember every paper that he glimpses from every team from months and months ago and definitely is not working for Ferrari just yet.

In any case, Renault hasn't had any luck with their FIA guy!

Lol, I go out of my way to point out that I am not making an accusation and yet get a response as though I am accusing them of something. I'm not.


Lol all you want sandman, sentences that start with the good old "I'm not saying this, but..." are just what they sound like mostly.

In any case, I wasn't trying to offend you, please don't take it the wrong way. However consider this: you did little research on the matter and came up with a theory that the guy could have taken secrets to Ferrari. He hasn't even started working there, it is well known that he is starting there from September onwards, so this is a wild speculation at best. So shouldn't I challenge this opinion?

Again, I'm not having a go at you, just at the idea expressed on that post. (It will be very funny if he has indeed somehow leaked info to Ferrari now, wouldn't it?)


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