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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
so I think qualifying today has made my point pretty effectively. Things are changing so much race by race this season that you can't take anything for granted. Ferrari and Mercedes have effectively swapped places


...because that lap (which Hamilton was unable to reproduce the 2nd time round, nor Bottas get anywhere near, which neither of them did anything close to all weekend so far) clearly indicates Mercedes have made the jump? Could just as likely be it was a once in a lifetime lap combined with a lacklustre showing from both Ferrari drivers (and given Verstappen has jumped the pair of them, it's not exactly unlikely). Kimi was faster in Q2!


You don't put 0.60 and 0.75 on the Ferrari pair without a great car. Mercedes was the car to have. Hamilton did a great lap and maybe the advantage in his car is less than those gaps, but Mercedes was the better car, the margin is too big.

Vettel didn't manage his Singapore magic (was 0.6 and 0.7 ahead of Kimi in 2015 and 2017) but even that would not have been enough to bridge the gap.



It would have put him about equal if we assume that similar form would have seen him produce a similar gap to Kimi at a track which is a Seb specialty. I think we saw a special lap or two today.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:22 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
so I think qualifying today has made my point pretty effectively. Things are changing so much race by race this season that you can't take anything for granted. Ferrari and Mercedes have effectively swapped places


...because that lap (which Hamilton was unable to reproduce the 2nd time round, nor Bottas get anywhere near, which neither of them did anything close to all weekend so far) clearly indicates Mercedes have made the jump? Could just as likely be it was a once in a lifetime lap combined with a lacklustre showing from both Ferrari drivers (and given Verstappen has jumped the pair of them, it's not exactly unlikely). Kimi was faster in Q2!


You don't put 0.60 and 0.75 on the Ferrari pair without a great car. Mercedes was the car to have. Hamilton did a great lap and maybe the advantage in his car is less than those gaps, but Mercedes was the better car, the margin is too big.

Vettel didn't manage his Singapore magic (was 0.6 and 0.7 ahead of Kimi in 2015 and 2017) but even that would not have been enough to bridge the gap.



It would have put him about equal if we assume that similar form would have seen him produce a similar gap to Kimi at a track which is a Seb specialty. I think we saw a special lap or two today.


Its possible I guess.. ordinarily I would say that is madness but if you look at historic numbers for Kimi he has been 0.6-0.8 off his team mate every season at Singapore except for the anomaly of 2009 when Fisichella took the car over from Massa, Singapore was his 2nd race and he was miles off Kimi at all tracks. Grosjean beat him twice by 0.6-0.7 even. He is hopeless in Singapore.

It seems today, the low performer is Vettel. But I still feel the Mercedes is at least 0.2 up on the Ferrari. If Vettel brought his Singapore magic he probably would be P2 though.

Its also of note, that Vettel missed half of FP2 and FP1 and FP3 are in daylight and not represantive of qualifying/race conditions. FP2 is key in Singapore, this is the reason Rosberg thrashed Hamilton there in 2016 as he missed both FP2 and FP3.


Last edited by Johnson on Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:23 pm 
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It appears that Mercedes have stolen the march here. For the first time in a while they seemed to have the car to beat on the day. Of course the performance from Hamilton helped immensely. That was no ordinary lap and I'm quite certain that the laps that Lewis and Max produced were every bit as important to their starting positions as the cars. That said, Bottas did have the edge on Kimi and the Mercs were highly competitive even in practice. It looked very even going into the qualifying session but I think the Mercs strength in the middle sector was scary. At least in Hamilton's hands there was no one close other than Max through there.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:24 pm 
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Yes, Ferrari were quicker in S1. This suggests they were heating the tyres up too much on the out lap. The Mercedes came good in the middle and especially last sectors.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:26 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
It appears that Mercedes have stolen the march here. For the first time in a while they seemed to have the car to beat on the day. Of course the performance from Hamilton helped immensely. That was no ordinary lap and I'm quite certain that the laps that Lewis and Max produced were every bit as important to their starting positions as the cars. That said, Bottas did have the edge on Kimi and the Mercs were highly competitive even in practice. It looked very even going into the qualifying session but I think the Mercs strength in the middle sector was scary. At least in Hamilton's hands there was no one close other than Max through there.


I'm not so sure that Kimi wasn't sent out to just try and disrupt the Mercs by going far too fast and overtaking them on their outlaps.
Seb knew the best way was to go slow on the outlap and Kimi blasted his?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Invade wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
so I think qualifying today has made my point pretty effectively. Things are changing so much race by race this season that you can't take anything for granted. Ferrari and Mercedes have effectively swapped places


...because that lap (which Hamilton was unable to reproduce the 2nd time round, nor Bottas get anywhere near, which neither of them did anything close to all weekend so far) clearly indicates Mercedes have made the jump? Could just as likely be it was a once in a lifetime lap combined with a lacklustre showing from both Ferrari drivers (and given Verstappen has jumped the pair of them, it's not exactly unlikely). Kimi was faster in Q2!


You don't put 0.60 and 0.75 on the Ferrari pair without a great car. Mercedes was the car to have. Hamilton did a great lap and maybe the advantage in his car is less than those gaps, but Mercedes was the better car, the margin is too big.

Vettel didn't manage his Singapore magic (was 0.6 and 0.7 ahead of Kimi in 2015 and 2017) but even that would not have been enough to bridge the gap.



It would have put him about equal if we assume that similar form would have seen him produce a similar gap to Kimi at a track which is a Seb specialty. I think we saw a special lap or two today.


Its possible I guess.. ordinarily I would say that is madness but if you look at historic numbers for Kimi he has been 0.6-0.8 off his team mate every season at Singapore except for the anomaly of 2009 when Fisichella took the car over from Massa, Singapore was his 2nd race and he was miles off Kimi at all tracks. Grosjean beat him twice by 0.6-0.7 even. He is hopeless in Singapore.

It seems today, the low performer is Vettel. But I still feel the Mercedes is at least 0.2 up on the Ferrari. If Vettel brought his Singapore magic he probably would be P2 though.


Yes if I had to choose one way or the other I'd say Merc had 0.1 on Ferrari maybe 0.2. My guess would be about 0.1 but it's just pretty much impossible to gauge these things with any certainty. Ultimately to me it seems that Vettel wasn't as good as usual and he, Kimi and Bottas all did OK, maybe even quite well, and Hamilton and Verstappen were superb.

Going forward though I wonder what this result will mean? We still have a race to run but Mercedes were very good in the long runs in FP - just as good as Ferrari or RBR. It seems to me they are turning the tables.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:41 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Invade wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
...because that lap (which Hamilton was unable to reproduce the 2nd time round, nor Bottas get anywhere near, which neither of them did anything close to all weekend so far) clearly indicates Mercedes have made the jump? Could just as likely be it was a once in a lifetime lap combined with a lacklustre showing from both Ferrari drivers (and given Verstappen has jumped the pair of them, it's not exactly unlikely). Kimi was faster in Q2!


You don't put 0.60 and 0.75 on the Ferrari pair without a great car. Mercedes was the car to have. Hamilton did a great lap and maybe the advantage in his car is less than those gaps, but Mercedes was the better car, the margin is too big.

Vettel didn't manage his Singapore magic (was 0.6 and 0.7 ahead of Kimi in 2015 and 2017) but even that would not have been enough to bridge the gap.



It would have put him about equal if we assume that similar form would have seen him produce a similar gap to Kimi at a track which is a Seb specialty. I think we saw a special lap or two today.


Its possible I guess.. ordinarily I would say that is madness but if you look at historic numbers for Kimi he has been 0.6-0.8 off his team mate every season at Singapore except for the anomaly of 2009 when Fisichella took the car over from Massa, Singapore was his 2nd race and he was miles off Kimi at all tracks. Grosjean beat him twice by 0.6-0.7 even. He is hopeless in Singapore.

It seems today, the low performer is Vettel. But I still feel the Mercedes is at least 0.2 up on the Ferrari. If Vettel brought his Singapore magic he probably would be P2 though.


Yes if I had to choose one way or the other I'd say Merc had 0.1 on Ferrari maybe 0.2. My guess would be about 0.1 but it's just pretty much impossible to gauge these things with any certainty. Ultimately to me it seems that Vettel wasn't as good as usual and he, Kimi and Bottas all did OK, maybe even quite well, and Hamilton and Verstappen were superb.

Going forward though I wonder what this result will mean? We still have a race to run but Mercedes were very good in the long runs in FP - just as good as Ferrari or RBR. It seems to me they are turning the tables.

I can't see the gap being less than 3-4 tenths personally. Perfectly happy to assume Hamilton absolutely nailed his lap and Vettel didn't but even being generous and assuming a very poor performance from Vettel I can't justify estimating any more than 3-4 tenths left on the table after 2 attempts. Even that would be very poor for a driver of Vettel's level.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:49 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Johnson wrote:

Its possible I guess.. ordinarily I would say that is madness but if you look at historic numbers for Kimi he has been 0.6-0.8 off his team mate every season at Singapore except for the anomaly of 2009 when Fisichella took the car over from Massa, Singapore was his 2nd race and he was miles off Kimi at all tracks. Grosjean beat him twice by 0.6-0.7 even. He is hopeless in Singapore.

It seems today, the low performer is Vettel. But I still feel the Mercedes is at least 0.2 up on the Ferrari. If Vettel brought his Singapore magic he probably would be P2 though.


Yes if I had to choose one way or the other I'd say Merc had 0.1 on Ferrari maybe 0.2. My guess would be about 0.1 but it's just pretty much impossible to gauge these things with any certainty. Ultimately to me it seems that Vettel wasn't as good as usual and he, Kimi and Bottas all did OK, maybe even quite well, and Hamilton and Verstappen were superb.

Going forward though I wonder what this result will mean? We still have a race to run but Mercedes were very good in the long runs in FP - just as good as Ferrari or RBR. It seems to me they are turning the tables.

I can't see the gap being less than 3-4 tenths personally. Perfectly happy to assume Hamilton absolutely nailed his lap and Vettel didn't but even being generous and assuming a very poor performance from Vettel I can't justify estimating any more than 3-4 tenths left on the table after 2 attempts. Even that would be very poor for a driver of Vettel's level.

Kimi has been demolished by his teammates around Singapore consistently and yet he was very close to Vettel here and just a touch behind Bottas. There's no way that there's 3-4 tenths in the cars alone here. I do think that the Mercs were the car to beat overall but the margin is very small in the cars. Vettel struggled with traffic on the warm-up lap during the time the track was fastest (the first Q3 runs). He didn't get a great lap in and no one really improved on their second run. Through your reasoning, you're basically equalizing Vettel and Hamilton's performance but their performances were far from equal on the day.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:09 pm 
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https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... -do-better

Quote:
"The gap is a surprise. But l don't think it reflects the true performance. For us, it wasn't as smooth as we wanted it to be," Vettel told Sky F1.

"As l said, it wasn't ideal - you can figure out what l mean. We should have done better. We had the ingredients but we didn't put it together. Pole was definitely there to grasp."


Doesn't sound like the words of a man who thinks he did all he could. Or is Vettel lying about the pace of the Ferrari too?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:17 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11491822/vettel-ferrari-must-do-better

Quote:
"The gap is a surprise. But l don't think it reflects the true performance. For us, it wasn't as smooth as we wanted it to be," Vettel told Sky F1.

"As l said, it wasn't ideal - you can figure out what l mean. We should have done better. We had the ingredients but we didn't put it together. Pole was definitely there to grasp."


Doesn't sound like the words of a man who thinks he did all he could. Or is Vettel lying about the pace of the Ferrari too?

I believe him. As has been said in this thread already, Kimi has a horrendous track record here and yet he was just a tenth behind Bottas. Vettel failed to put the kind of gap between Kimi and himself here that he has in the past and yet he still out-qualified Bottas. I believe him when he says pole was possible if they had executed better. The key seemed to be the outlap; where Ferrari wanted to run quite a bit quicker than Mercedes yet they kept getting stuck behind the Mercedes coming out of the garage. Vettel seemed to get balked there.

For me, this session was about a monster lap by Hamilton (and also Verstappen).


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:25 pm 
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Imo it was undoubtedly a great lap from Lewis and it’s safe to say the Merc has improved a lot since Spa. Toto Wolff was not kidding when he said they would “turn the factory upside down” to find performance. But it’s only Lewis who has been able to extract it it seems.

Ferrari has failed to capitalize during a pretty long period they had the faster car by letting Hamilton steal 3 races he shouldn’t have. It is possible that Merc may start to pull away now. They are always strongest in developing their car over a season. We shall see what happens next.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:26 pm 
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Well, given that the Mercedes cars seemed to keep up the pace over the lap, maybe the slower outlap was the way to go?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:29 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Yes, Ferrari were quicker in S1. This suggests they were heating the tyres up too much on the out lap. The Mercedes came good in the middle and especially last sectors.

I think this is a good point. At no point over the weekend so far have Mercedes looked to have a better car than Ferrari other than Hamilton in Q3. Vettel made a comment over the radio about the speed of the Mercedes outlaps, it may just be that they had a better understanding of the tyres and how to get the most out of them on a qualifying lap. Not a matter of the car being inherently better than the Ferrari, which the evidence of the weekend does not point towards.

If you ask me the gap is explained by a combination of Mercedes as a team doing a better job with the temperamental hypersoft tyres and Hamilton pulling a superb lap out of the bag. I struggle with the idea that a 6-7 tenth gap can be explained by driver talent alone.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:31 pm 
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That was a statement from Mercedes.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:37 pm 
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j man wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes, Ferrari were quicker in S1. This suggests they were heating the tyres up too much on the out lap. The Mercedes came good in the middle and especially last sectors.

I think this is a good point. At no point over the weekend so far have Mercedes looked to have a better car than Ferrari other than Hamilton in Q3. Vettel made a comment over the radio about the speed of the Mercedes outlaps, it may just be that they had a better understanding of the tyres and how to get the most out of them on a qualifying lap. Not a matter of the car being inherently better than the Ferrari, which the evidence of the weekend does not point towards.

If you ask me the gap is explained by a combination of Mercedes as a team doing a better job with the temperamental hypersoft tyres and Hamilton pulling a superb lap out of the bag. I struggle with the idea that a 6-7 tenth gap can be explained by driver talent alone.

I think this is getting to the heart of what happened in qualifying. I do think that Hamilton had a better performance than Vettel but I also think that Mercedes continue their recent track record of out-smarting Ferrari. Ever since botching things for Hamilton in Austria, they have been on their game. Hamilton was really going for a Sunday stroll on his outlaps and it seemed to have provided him with superior tire life for his hotlaps. It's just another session where Merc/Hamilton maximized their performance while Ferrari/Vettel did not.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Nobody still claiming that Ferrari is faster?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:04 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
Nobody still claiming that Ferrari is faster?

On balance, over the course of the season, yes it has been. At Singapore, very little difference I think, maybe a slight edge for Ferrari. But Mercedes' race team and Lewis Hamilton individually did the much better job in Q3.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:11 pm 
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j man wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Nobody still claiming that Ferrari is faster?

On balance, over the course of the season, yes it has been. At Singapore, very little difference I think, maybe a slight edge for Ferrari. But Mercedes' race team and Lewis Hamilton individually did the much better job in Q3.

Friendly advice: don't get baited into talking to this guy.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:31 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Johnson wrote:

Its possible I guess.. ordinarily I would say that is madness but if you look at historic numbers for Kimi he has been 0.6-0.8 off his team mate every season at Singapore except for the anomaly of 2009 when Fisichella took the car over from Massa, Singapore was his 2nd race and he was miles off Kimi at all tracks. Grosjean beat him twice by 0.6-0.7 even. He is hopeless in Singapore.

It seems today, the low performer is Vettel. But I still feel the Mercedes is at least 0.2 up on the Ferrari. If Vettel brought his Singapore magic he probably would be P2 though.


Yes if I had to choose one way or the other I'd say Merc had 0.1 on Ferrari maybe 0.2. My guess would be about 0.1 but it's just pretty much impossible to gauge these things with any certainty. Ultimately to me it seems that Vettel wasn't as good as usual and he, Kimi and Bottas all did OK, maybe even quite well, and Hamilton and Verstappen were superb.

Going forward though I wonder what this result will mean? We still have a race to run but Mercedes were very good in the long runs in FP - just as good as Ferrari or RBR. It seems to me they are turning the tables.

I can't see the gap being less than 3-4 tenths personally. Perfectly happy to assume Hamilton absolutely nailed his lap and Vettel didn't but even being generous and assuming a very poor performance from Vettel I can't justify estimating any more than 3-4 tenths left on the table after 2 attempts. Even that would be very poor for a driver of Vettel's level.

Kimi has been demolished by his teammates around Singapore consistently and yet he was very close to Vettel here and just a touch behind Bottas. There's no way that there's 3-4 tenths in the cars alone here. I do think that the Mercs were the car to beat overall but the margin is very small in the cars. Vettel struggled with traffic on the warm-up lap during the time the track was fastest (the first Q3 runs). He didn't get a great lap in and no one really improved on their second run. Through your reasoning, you're basically equalizing Vettel and Hamilton's performance but their performances were far from equal on the day.

You've got to be kidding Sandman, you were arguing (In this thread IIRC) that Ferrari clearly had the best car in qualifying for Monza because of the 2 tenths advantage. You can't seriously be trying to talk away 6 tenths now.

Hamilton did a brilliant lap and I'd definitely say he performed better than Vettel today, but 6 tenths? That takes a big stretch of the imagination. Applying that logic you could basically go back over the entire season and have the Mercedes as clearly the best because you guess that Vettel was half a second quicker than Hamilton.

Ferrari looked to be about equal to Red Bull today roughly 3 tenths behind Mercedes IMO. Applying Vettel's average gap over Kimi would also back that up (Well not quite but I'll assume it would have been more than average given this is one of Vettel's better tracks).


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:05 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Johnson wrote:

Its possible I guess.. ordinarily I would say that is madness but if you look at historic numbers for Kimi he has been 0.6-0.8 off his team mate every season at Singapore except for the anomaly of 2009 when Fisichella took the car over from Massa, Singapore was his 2nd race and he was miles off Kimi at all tracks. Grosjean beat him twice by 0.6-0.7 even. He is hopeless in Singapore.

It seems today, the low performer is Vettel. But I still feel the Mercedes is at least 0.2 up on the Ferrari. If Vettel brought his Singapore magic he probably would be P2 though.


Yes if I had to choose one way or the other I'd say Merc had 0.1 on Ferrari maybe 0.2. My guess would be about 0.1 but it's just pretty much impossible to gauge these things with any certainty. Ultimately to me it seems that Vettel wasn't as good as usual and he, Kimi and Bottas all did OK, maybe even quite well, and Hamilton and Verstappen were superb.

Going forward though I wonder what this result will mean? We still have a race to run but Mercedes were very good in the long runs in FP - just as good as Ferrari or RBR. It seems to me they are turning the tables.

I can't see the gap being less than 3-4 tenths personally. Perfectly happy to assume Hamilton absolutely nailed his lap and Vettel didn't but even being generous and assuming a very poor performance from Vettel I can't justify estimating any more than 3-4 tenths left on the table after 2 attempts. Even that would be very poor for a driver of Vettel's level.

Kimi has been demolished by his teammates around Singapore consistently and yet he was very close to Vettel here and just a touch behind Bottas. There's no way that there's 3-4 tenths in the cars alone here. I do think that the Mercs were the car to beat overall but the margin is very small in the cars. Vettel struggled with traffic on the warm-up lap during the time the track was fastest (the first Q3 runs). He didn't get a great lap in and no one really improved on their second run. Through your reasoning, you're basically equalizing Vettel and Hamilton's performance but their performances were far from equal on the day.

You've got to be kidding Sandman, you were arguing (In this thread IIRC) that Ferrari clearly had the best car in qualifying for Monza because of the 2 tenths advantage. You can't seriously be trying to talk away 6 tenths now.

Hamilton did a brilliant lap and I'd definitely say he performed better than Vettel today, but 6 tenths? That takes a big stretch of the imagination. Applying that logic you could basically go back over the entire season and have the Mercedes as clearly the best because you guess that Vettel was half a second quicker than Hamilton.

Ferrari looked to be about equal to Red Bull today roughly 3 tenths behind Mercedes IMO. Applying Vettel's average gap over Kimi would also back that up (Well not quite but I'll assume it would have been more than average given this is one of Vettel's better tracks).

Sorry but no, that is completely inaccurate. Vettel's own words were that Ferrari failed to maximize their potential and had pole within sight. There wasn't more than a tenth or two in the cars here at most and not necessarily in Merc's favor.

Your reasoning, again, is an attempt to equalize Hamilton and Vettel's performance. We've seen from the likes of Hamilton, Alonso, Max and Charles here a gap of greater than 6 tenths to their teammates. The drivers make a difference here and you're missing it. Vettel also did NOT get it together in Q3 and you seem to be missing that as well.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:18 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Sorry but no, that is completely inaccurate. Vettel's own words were that Ferrari failed to maximize their potential and had pole within sight. There wasn't more than a tenth or two in the cars here at most and not necessarily in Merc's favor.

Your reasoning, again, is an attempt to equalize Hamilton and Vettel's performance. We've seen from the likes of Hamilton, Alonso, Max and Charles here a gap of greater than 6 tenths to their teammates. The drivers make a difference here and you're missing it. Vettel also did NOT get it together in Q3 and you seem to be missing that as well.

How am I equalizing their performance? I'm saying Hamilton performed better.

A drivers underperforming by 6-7 tenths to their teammate is extremelly rare, taking that as your expectation for what should have happened is an absurd starting point which your clearly only using to get you to the answer you want.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:41 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Sorry but no, that is completely inaccurate. Vettel's own words were that Ferrari failed to maximize their potential and had pole within sight. There wasn't more than a tenth or two in the cars here at most and not necessarily in Merc's favor.

Your reasoning, again, is an attempt to equalize Hamilton and Vettel's performance. We've seen from the likes of Hamilton, Alonso, Max and Charles here a gap of greater than 6 tenths to their teammates. The drivers make a difference here and you're missing it. Vettel also did NOT get it together in Q3 and you seem to be missing that as well.

How am I equalizing their performance? I'm saying Hamilton performed better.

A drivers underperforming by 6-7 tenths to their teammate is extremelly rare, taking that as your expectation for what should have happened is an absurd starting point which your clearly only using to get you to the answer you want.

I don't think Vettel underperformed by 6-7 tenths. The difference is not all down to Vettel's driving. It's partially down to Mercedes having a better understanding of the tires and partially down to Hamilton putting in an absolute flyer. Even at 10/10ths the drivers are not equal to one another. Every aspect of your reasoning basically assumes equality in maximum performance between Hamilton and Vettel and that's where you miss the mark.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:00 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Sorry but no, that is completely inaccurate. Vettel's own words were that Ferrari failed to maximize their potential and had pole within sight. There wasn't more than a tenth or two in the cars here at most and not necessarily in Merc's favor.

Your reasoning, again, is an attempt to equalize Hamilton and Vettel's performance. We've seen from the likes of Hamilton, Alonso, Max and Charles here a gap of greater than 6 tenths to their teammates. The drivers make a difference here and you're missing it. Vettel also did NOT get it together in Q3 and you seem to be missing that as well.

How am I equalizing their performance? I'm saying Hamilton performed better.

A drivers underperforming by 6-7 tenths to their teammate is extremelly rare, taking that as your expectation for what should have happened is an absurd starting point which your clearly only using to get you to the answer you want.

I don't think Vettel underperformed by 6-7 tenths. The difference is not all down to Vettel's driving. It's partially down to Mercedes having a better understanding of the tires and partially down to Hamilton putting in an absolute flyer. Even at 10/10ths the drivers are not equal to one another. Every aspect of your reasoning basically assumes equality in maximum performance between Hamilton and Vettel and that's where you miss the mark.

Yeah cheers for the condescending summary of my reasoning but when yours is "Hamilton=God, adjust argument to get there" I don't think your in a position to talk down to anyone.

My mistake for trying to enter into a discussion involving Hamilton with you, normally try to avoid that and won't make that mistake again.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:07 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Sorry but no, that is completely inaccurate. Vettel's own words were that Ferrari failed to maximize their potential and had pole within sight. There wasn't more than a tenth or two in the cars here at most and not necessarily in Merc's favor.

Your reasoning, again, is an attempt to equalize Hamilton and Vettel's performance. We've seen from the likes of Hamilton, Alonso, Max and Charles here a gap of greater than 6 tenths to their teammates. The drivers make a difference here and you're missing it. Vettel also did NOT get it together in Q3 and you seem to be missing that as well.

How am I equalizing their performance? I'm saying Hamilton performed better.

A drivers underperforming by 6-7 tenths to their teammate is extremelly rare, taking that as your expectation for what should have happened is an absurd starting point which your clearly only using to get you to the answer you want.

I don't think Vettel underperformed by 6-7 tenths. The difference is not all down to Vettel's driving. It's partially down to Mercedes having a better understanding of the tires and partially down to Hamilton putting in an absolute flyer. Even at 10/10ths the drivers are not equal to one another. Every aspect of your reasoning basically assumes equality in maximum performance between Hamilton and Vettel and that's where you miss the mark.

Yeah cheers for the condescending summary of my reasoning but when yours is "Hamilton=God, adjust argument to get there" I don't think your in a position to talk down to anyone.

My mistake for trying to enter into a discussion involving Hamilton with you, normally try to avoid that and won't make that mistake again.

No it's not Hamilton=God. That's all you. The point is that it's also not Hamilton=Vettel which is what you seem to insist in all of your assessments. When Hamilton basically put in the lap of the season and Vettel had a session where he struggled, not sure why you would apply the reasoning that you have chosen to.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:13 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Sorry but no, that is completely inaccurate. Vettel's own words were that Ferrari failed to maximize their potential and had pole within sight. There wasn't more than a tenth or two in the cars here at most and not necessarily in Merc's favor.

Your reasoning, again, is an attempt to equalize Hamilton and Vettel's performance. We've seen from the likes of Hamilton, Alonso, Max and Charles here a gap of greater than 6 tenths to their teammates. The drivers make a difference here and you're missing it. Vettel also did NOT get it together in Q3 and you seem to be missing that as well.

How am I equalizing their performance? I'm saying Hamilton performed better.

A drivers underperforming by 6-7 tenths to their teammate is extremelly rare, taking that as your expectation for what should have happened is an absurd starting point which your clearly only using to get you to the answer you want.

I don't think Vettel underperformed by 6-7 tenths. The difference is not all down to Vettel's driving. It's partially down to Mercedes having a better understanding of the tires and partially down to Hamilton putting in an absolute flyer. Even at 10/10ths the drivers are not equal to one another. Every aspect of your reasoning basically assumes equality in maximum performance between Hamilton and Vettel and that's where you miss the mark.

Yeah cheers for the condescending summary of my reasoning but when yours is "Hamilton=God, adjust argument to get there" I don't think your in a position to talk down to anyone.

My mistake for trying to enter into a discussion involving Hamilton with you, normally try to avoid that and won't make that mistake again.

No it's not Hamilton=God. That's all you. The point is that it's also not Hamilton=Vettel which is what you seem to insist in all of your assessments. When Hamilton basically put in the lap of the season and Vettel had a session where he struggled, not sure why you would apply the reasoning that you have chosen to.

Never mind, I generally try to avoid discussions that in any way involve Hamilton with you because your bias makes it impossible, I should have done the same this time and won't make the same mistake again.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:17 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I don't think Vettel underperformed by 6-7 tenths. The difference is not all down to Vettel's driving. It's partially down to Mercedes having a better understanding of the tires and partially down to Hamilton putting in an absolute flyer. Even at 10/10ths the drivers are not equal to one another. Every aspect of your reasoning basically assumes equality in maximum performance between Hamilton and Vettel and that's where you miss the mark.

Yeah cheers for the condescending summary of my reasoning but when yours is "Hamilton=God, adjust argument to get there" I don't think your in a position to talk down to anyone.

My mistake for trying to enter into a discussion involving Hamilton with you, normally try to avoid that and won't make that mistake again.

No it's not Hamilton=God. That's all you. The point is that it's also not Hamilton=Vettel which is what you seem to insist in all of your assessments. When Hamilton basically put in the lap of the season and Vettel had a session where he struggled, not sure why you would apply the reasoning that you have chosen to.

Never mind, I generally try to avoid discussions that in any way involve Hamilton with you because your bias makes it impossible, I should have done the same this time and won't make the same mistake again.

I'm not being biased at all here. It's you who tries to bend reality in order to avoid acknowledging what's actually happening. Anyway, I'm happy to end the discussion.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:22 pm 
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At this point I am convinced that Verstappen is the fastest driver in Formula 1. Yes, faster than Hamilton.

His qualifying advantage over Ricciardo is becoming ludicrous.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:30 pm 
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Mod Edit: Message Deleted


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:53 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
At this point I am convinced that Verstappen is the fastest driver in Formula 1. Yes, faster than Hamilton.

His qualifying advantage over Ricciardo is becoming ludicrous.


Maybe, maybe not. Ricciardo hasn't been that good recently in qualifying and he probably didn't perform any better than Bottas, but Hamilton had a bigger gap over his teammate than Verstappen did.

Also @Blackflag it's perfectly reasonable for such gaps in performance to exist if a driver puts in possibly the best lap of his career, as Hamilton claimed in his own words, and at Singapore where spreads between teammates are often substantially wider than normal due to how long the lap is and the number of corners, giving much more opportunity for mistakes or inspired driving to lose or gain time. If Vettel puts in a decent lap (below his usual standard of a very good lap) he might lose 2 tenths over his norm and if Ham produces above his norm he might gain 2 tenths, which would be 4 tenths on a more standard track if we assume comparable performance in roughly equal cars. Singapore is longer, more technical, with more opportunity to gain and lose time, and so those margins can become amplified.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:15 pm 
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Have a listen to what Sebastian and Kimi had to say after the session. I think this provides more clarity on the cars here. Neither of them feels the time they set was representative of what they were capable of.

http://www.espn.in/f1/story/_/id/246875 ... qualifying

Sebastian Vettel (3rd) "Our laps today were not ideal and, all in all, our qualifying session was not as good as it could have been. I think we didn't take the best out of the car. We didn't have a smooth session, that's it. The gap seems big but it's partly because this is a very long track, so I am not worried. I think Lewis had a very good lap but he was not impossible to beat.Obviously, it's always better to start from the front row, but I think tomorrow it will be fine. The car is good, so I believe we can stay with the group of the cars in front and then we have two hours of racing to work something out. You never know what can happen. Obviously, we should have done better because we had all the ingredients, but today we didn't put them all together. I'm not completely upset because third is not a disaster, but for sure we wanted to qualify on pole and that was up for grabs today. However, we now turn the page and see how we can fight tomorrow".

Kimi Raikkonen (5th): "This qualifying was a bit more tricky than we expected. In general, we struggled to 'switch on' the tyres straightaway and make them work as easily as it had been all weekend; so I was a bit surprised. Things can change quickly from practice to qualifying, that's why there's no reason to look at the lap times in practice, especially in places like this. The end result obviously is not great; this is the kind of circuit where if you get everything right your lap can be very good, but if you have some difficulties, the time difference gets big very quickly . Tomorrow will be a long day, everybody seems to be quite close to each other; it will be a long, tough and hectic race , and usually many things happen here. We'll try to make the right decisions and the right calls".

Neither of them seems to feel that they were at a car disadvantage and both describe a session in which they didn't get things right collectively as a team. Of course we should probably just ignore that...


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:38 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Have a listen to what Sebastian and Kimi had to say after the session. I think this provides more clarity on the cars here. Neither of them feels the time they set was representative of what they were capable of.

http://www.espn.in/f1/story/_/id/246875 ... qualifying

Sebastian Vettel (3rd) "Our laps today were not ideal and, all in all, our qualifying session was not as good as it could have been. I think we didn't take the best out of the car. We didn't have a smooth session, that's it. The gap seems big but it's partly because this is a very long track, so I am not worried. I think Lewis had a very good lap but he was not impossible to beat.Obviously, it's always better to start from the front row, but I think tomorrow it will be fine. The car is good, so I believe we can stay with the group of the cars in front and then we have two hours of racing to work something out. You never know what can happen. Obviously, we should have done better because we had all the ingredients, but today we didn't put them all together. I'm not completely upset because third is not a disaster, but for sure we wanted to qualify on pole and that was up for grabs today. However, we now turn the page and see how we can fight tomorrow".

Kimi Raikkonen (5th): "This qualifying was a bit more tricky than we expected. In general, we struggled to 'switch on' the tyres straightaway and make them work as easily as it had been all weekend; so I was a bit surprised. Things can change quickly from practice to qualifying, that's why there's no reason to look at the lap times in practice, especially in places like this. The end result obviously is not great; this is the kind of circuit where if you get everything right your lap can be very good, but if you have some difficulties, the time difference gets big very quickly . Tomorrow will be a long day, everybody seems to be quite close to each other; it will be a long, tough and hectic race , and usually many things happen here. We'll try to make the right decisions and the right calls".

Neither of them seems to feel that they were at a car disadvantage and both describe a session in which they didn't get things right collectively as a team. Of course we should probably just ignore that...

No doubt they could have done better, but 6 tenths? I think that's a stretch, personally. That's a huge amount of time to leave on the table.

I guess it's possible, if not improbable, but on the basis of the evidence Mercedes were certainly not at a disadvantage today


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:55 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Have a listen to what Sebastian and Kimi had to say after the session. I think this provides more clarity on the cars here. Neither of them feels the time they set was representative of what they were capable of.

http://www.espn.in/f1/story/_/id/246875 ... qualifying

Sebastian Vettel (3rd) "Our laps today were not ideal and, all in all, our qualifying session was not as good as it could have been. I think we didn't take the best out of the car. We didn't have a smooth session, that's it. The gap seems big but it's partly because this is a very long track, so I am not worried. I think Lewis had a very good lap but he was not impossible to beat.Obviously, it's always better to start from the front row, but I think tomorrow it will be fine. The car is good, so I believe we can stay with the group of the cars in front and then we have two hours of racing to work something out. You never know what can happen. Obviously, we should have done better because we had all the ingredients, but today we didn't put them all together. I'm not completely upset because third is not a disaster, but for sure we wanted to qualify on pole and that was up for grabs today. However, we now turn the page and see how we can fight tomorrow".

Kimi Raikkonen (5th): "This qualifying was a bit more tricky than we expected. In general, we struggled to 'switch on' the tyres straightaway and make them work as easily as it had been all weekend; so I was a bit surprised. Things can change quickly from practice to qualifying, that's why there's no reason to look at the lap times in practice, especially in places like this. The end result obviously is not great; this is the kind of circuit where if you get everything right your lap can be very good, but if you have some difficulties, the time difference gets big very quickly . Tomorrow will be a long day, everybody seems to be quite close to each other; it will be a long, tough and hectic race , and usually many things happen here. We'll try to make the right decisions and the right calls".

Neither of them seems to feel that they were at a car disadvantage and both describe a session in which they didn't get things right collectively as a team. Of course we should probably just ignore that...

No doubt they could have done better, but 6 tenths? I think that's a stretch, personally. That's a huge amount of time to leave on the table.

I guess it's possible, if not improbable, but on the basis of the evidence Mercedes were certainly not at a disadvantage today

6 tenths would be an eternity at most circuits but here it happens quite often. Because there are so many corners, getting one or two of them particularly right (or wrong) can have a carry-over effect that gains you time for the rest of the lap. It's very easy to find yourself half a second behind.

It's impossible to tell where things stand exactly but it's clear that the gap in Q3 was mostly down to how the team and driver performed and not the inherent pace of the cars. Lewis described the lap as feeling "perfect" while both Ferraris described struggling and leaving time on the table.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:55 pm 
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Proof that Hamilton definitely has the better equipment :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:56 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Proof that Hamilton definitely has the better equipment :lol:

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Track limits!!!! :x :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:16 pm 
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Well that was a Merc cruising. IMO they wont be challenged until 2021


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:27 pm 
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The first crucial move in the WDC, Vettel needs luck now. His body language shows it. If Vettel won every race with Hamilton 2nd, he would clinch in by 2 points.

Vettel needs at least 1 DNF and one shocker 6th-7th finish at very least for Hamilton.

If Vettel didn’t go off in Germany it would be just 8 points.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:30 pm 
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Looked like Mercedes had a bit of pace on the Red Bull this race. I have no idea about Ferrari as Vettel was put on US and Kimi seemed quicker than Bottas, who was slow and poor in the race. Anyone got a view on the pace of Ferrari in this race?

It seems likely that Mercedes had the edge on either team.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:32 pm 
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We saw 2-3 laps of Hamilton vs Vettel and Vettel could not keep up. Hamilton put 2 seconds on him in 4 laps. Mercedes was a beast today which is the biggest surprise of the year.

Verstappen even got dropped then too, Vettel seemed quicker than Max. The race was set after that.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:36 pm 
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Not sure many saw Hamilton pole and win this weekend or a Hamilton win last weekend. So who wants to predict Russia?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:37 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
We saw 2-3 laps of Hamilton vs Vettel and Vettel could not keep up. Hamilton put 2 seconds on him in 4 laps. Mercedes was a beast today which is the biggest surprise of the year.

Verstappen even got dropped then too, Vettel seemed quicker than Max. The race was set after that.


My issue is Bottas' pace. Was Hamilton making the difference today? He is on fire after all and Vettel... not so much.


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