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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:11 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
A piece to get the old debate going again:

https://www.racefans.net/2018/11/15/ana ... lower-car/

So after 14 races it was 9-5 in Ferrari's favour but after Mexico it was 10-9 to Mercedes which of course includes the Mercedes getting thrashed in Mexico, this sounds confused? :?

Yeah that doesn't compute at all does it? Ferrari were easily quicker in races like Austin, Mexico (and probably now Brazil). Many believe that their car was quicker in Singapore as well. There's no way it was ever 10-9. The most generous estimates have it 12-8 right now between the two teams.

The only way someone could call Singapore in favour of Ferrari is if they are delusional. It's one of the easiest races to call all season.

That said i agree the racefans one seems odd, I make it 12-8 to Ferrari.

There are quotes from both Vettel and Raikkonen from Singapore claiming they should have had the pole position. Are they "delusional"? Ferrari botched that weekend completely but it wasn't down to the car's level of performance.

If they really believe they had the best car that weekend (and I don't think they do) then yes, I think they're delusional.

It would be a stretch to explain away the 6 tenth qualifying advantage as down to driver/team (not like were talking about a tenth or two here), but even if you granted that, the fact it was backed up by one of the most dominant race performances of the year should tell you all you need to know. It's as easy of a weekend to call as Australia or China IMO, I don't see how you could argue against it.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:42 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
If they really believe they had the best car that weekend (and I don't think they do) then yes, I think they're delusional.

It would be a stretch to explain away the 6 tenth qualifying advantage as down to driver/team (not like were talking about a tenth or two here), but even if you granted that, the fact it was backed up by one of the most dominant race performances of the year should tell you all you need to know. It's as easy of a weekend to call as Australia or China IMO, I don't see how you could argue against it.


It's not even really a stretch. Your outlook is limited by not understanding the huge degree of variance that can happen in a session where each driver only typically gets two stabs at it. Singapore is one of the tracks which produces the biggest time differences between drivers due to its length and technical nature where it's difficult to hook up the full lap. Further, Hamilton produced a candidate for best qualifying lap of his career and further, Vettel didn't nail either of his laps. Vettel didn't perform. He barely beat Kimi who isn't terribly handy around Singapore and Bottas did about as well as both also. None of them hooked up even a "good" lap and so were about .3 down on where they'd have been if they put in merely a good lap. Hamilton put in something far beyond a "good" lap. It's very very easy to at least imagine that this gap was about driver performance. It doesn't guarantee it as truth but it's not remotely delusional to put this down to the drivers on the weekend. It is delusional to discount the possibility altogether when basic common sense and logic very plainly points it out as a feasible cause.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:18 pm 
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I think that often-used view of breaking down lap time into driver speed + car speed is way too black and white. People often forget how the two cars are basically their own teams within the teams, with their own personalities and routines, software and parameters, tools and practice. It's easy for two drivers within the same team to go down two different paths setup wise even if they have similar preferences, nevermind when considering the differences in driving styles etc, and furthermore how much, if any, synergy there is between a certain driving style, car set up, track layout and climate conditions. The variable permutations are endless.
Over a (good portion of a) season you start to get a picture of which driver is better at adapting to different conditions but a one session sample is too small.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
If they really believe they had the best car that weekend (and I don't think they do) then yes, I think they're delusional.

It would be a stretch to explain away the 6 tenth qualifying advantage as down to driver/team (not like were talking about a tenth or two here), but even if you granted that, the fact it was backed up by one of the most dominant race performances of the year should tell you all you need to know. It's as easy of a weekend to call as Australia or China IMO, I don't see how you could argue against it.


It's not even really a stretch. Your outlook is limited by not understanding the huge degree of variance that can happen in a session where each driver only typically gets two stabs at it. Singapore is one of the tracks which produces the biggest time differences between drivers due to its length and technical nature where it's difficult to hook up the full lap. Further, Hamilton produced a candidate for best qualifying lap of his career and further, Vettel didn't nail either of his laps. Vettel didn't perform. He barely beat Kimi who isn't terribly handy around Singapore and Bottas did about as well as both also. None of them hooked up even a "good" lap and so were about .3 down on where they'd have been if they put in merely a good lap. Hamilton put in something far beyond a "good" lap. It's very very easy to at least imagine that this gap was about driver performance. It doesn't guarantee it as truth but it's not remotely delusional to put this down to the drivers on the weekend. It is delusional to discount the possibility altogether when basic common sense and logic very plainly points it out as a feasible cause.

Conjecture that goes against all available evidence IMO, I find it hard to take any ranking that puts Ferrari ahead at Singapore seriously.

Conjecture is fine as looking simply at the numbers isn't going to give you the full picture. However when applying conjecture you should be consistent when ranking the cars IMO. If anyone tried to argue Mercedes were better in China and it was just down to the drivers (similar gaps and situation) they'd be rightfully laughed away.

The whole thing looks like people taking what they want to think and adjusting, or ignoring, the facts to suit.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:39 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
The only way someone could call Singapore in favour of Ferrari is if they are delusional. It's one of the easiest races to call all season.

That said i agree the racefans one seems odd, I make it 12-8 to Ferrari.

There are quotes from both Vettel and Raikkonen from Singapore claiming they should have had the pole position. Are they "delusional"? Ferrari botched that weekend completely but it wasn't down to the car's level of performance.

If they really believe they had the best car that weekend (and I don't think they do) then yes, I think they're delusional.

It would be a stretch to explain away the 6 tenth qualifying advantage as down to driver/team (not like were talking about a tenth or two here), but even if you granted that, the fact it was backed up by one of the most dominant race performances of the year should tell you all you need to know. It's as easy of a weekend to call as Australia or China IMO, I don't see how you could argue against it.

Did you not watch the qualifying session? Did you miss that both Vettel and Raikkonen made significant errors on their Q3 laps while Hamilton had maybe the best lap of the season? Did you miss the fact that Hamilton, Verstappen and Alonso all out-qualified their own teammates by 7 tenths there?

As far as the race; Vettel lost out primarily due to poor strategy. Pitting him into traffic gave Max the position that Vettel actually took from him on the first lap. Then Seb spent the rest of the race on the wrong tire.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:21 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
If they really believe they had the best car that weekend (and I don't think they do) then yes, I think they're delusional.

It would be a stretch to explain away the 6 tenth qualifying advantage as down to driver/team (not like were talking about a tenth or two here), but even if you granted that, the fact it was backed up by one of the most dominant race performances of the year should tell you all you need to know. It's as easy of a weekend to call as Australia or China IMO, I don't see how you could argue against it.


It's not even really a stretch. Your outlook is limited by not understanding the huge degree of variance that can happen in a session where each driver only typically gets two stabs at it. Singapore is one of the tracks which produces the biggest time differences between drivers due to its length and technical nature where it's difficult to hook up the full lap. Further, Hamilton produced a candidate for best qualifying lap of his career and further, Vettel didn't nail either of his laps. Vettel didn't perform. He barely beat Kimi who isn't terribly handy around Singapore and Bottas did about as well as both also. None of them hooked up even a "good" lap and so were about .3 down on where they'd have been if they put in merely a good lap. Hamilton put in something far beyond a "good" lap. It's very very easy to at least imagine that this gap was about driver performance. It doesn't guarantee it as truth but it's not remotely delusional to put this down to the drivers on the weekend. It is delusional to discount the possibility altogether when basic common sense and logic very plainly points it out as a feasible cause.

Conjecture that goes against all available evidence IMO, I find it hard to take any ranking that puts Ferrari ahead at Singapore seriously.

Conjecture is fine as looking simply at the numbers isn't going to give you the full picture. However when applying conjecture you should be consistent when ranking the cars IMO. If anyone tried to argue Mercedes were better in China and it was just down to the drivers (similar gaps and situation) they'd be rightfully laughed away.

The whole thing looks like people taking what they want to think and adjusting, or ignoring, the facts to suit.


You especially speak for yourself here, as you lock yourself into a certain perspective depending on a false belief about the gaps being unfathomable unless Mercedes had a very marked advantage. All I've done is shown that another interpretation is also very viable, and in the face of the actual evidence of the laps produced during qualifying can be adequately argued. You rely on a assumption whereas some others are relying on what could be seen during the weekend. Now I don't claim to know what the right answer is, but to deny the possibility is delusional in my view.

Mercedes might have had a marked advantage..

OR perhaps the cars were close to even and the drivers made the difference..

And everything in between, such as a small advantage but a large gap due to a special lap and so on.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:23 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
I think that often-used view of breaking down lap time into driver speed + car speed is way too black and white. People often forget how the two cars are basically their own teams within the teams, with their own personalities and routines, software and parameters, tools and practice. It's easy for two drivers within the same team to go down two different paths setup wise even if they have similar preferences, nevermind when considering the differences in driving styles etc, and furthermore how much, if any, synergy there is between a certain driving style, car set up, track layout and climate conditions. The variable permutations are endless.
Over a (good portion of a) season you start to get a picture of which driver is better at adapting to different conditions but a one session sample is too small.


Yes it's difficult to judge sessions in isolation and in the end if we want to form a picture we accept it as conjectural.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:41 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Invade wrote:
For Brazil I have the following:

Qualifying: Mercedes = Ferrari > Red Bull

Race: Red Bull > Mercedes = Ferrari

Race Weekend: Red Bull = Mercedes = Ferrari


Ferrari was faster then Mercedes, Kimi was held up for around 30 laps behind Bottas and still finished under 5 seconds. Without Bottas holding up Kimi and Ricciardo I doubt Hamilton would have got a podium and he would have been fighting those cars which would have dealt more damage to the tyres. Hamilton needed clear air, Ferrari tyre choice and slow Bottas to help him out.


I pondered your posts and did at least place Red Bull ahead for the weekend on my spreadsheet but what do you make of the info now out about the severity of Hamilton's PU problem and the time it cost him during the race? Could he have held off Max by building a much better buffer with a healthy PU, or would his tyres have ended up being too damaged by the end of the race? It's possible that he could have built a gap to Max and held him off on pure pace for the race win in a very tight battle.

Not sure a car starting in 5th that could have easily won the race is necessarily the best car for the weekend, as per Exidiron's view, when now taking into account how much Hamilton was compromised. After all, Max still had to get through a combination of 3 Ferrari and Mercedes cars to get up to second, regardless of if Vettel or Raikkonen found their way into second ahead of Bottas early in the race. Also, the Ferrari drivers took a while to get into the pace of the race starting on the softs.

But there's no reason Ferrari couldn't have been on pole, and if Hamilton would have been 2nd or 3rd then it's hugely unlikely that he'd have won the race even with a healthy PU. He probably needed to get to turn 1 in the lead to have winning chances.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:44 pm 
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Interesting that in their respective press conferences this weekend both Vettel and Toto seemed to think Mercedes have had a small advantage overall this season.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:42 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Interesting that in their respective press conferences this weekend both Vettel and Toto seemed to think Mercedes have had a small advantage overall this season.

Mercedes in either the team, the car or the drivers?

Do you think that Wolff went through every race or just made a general statement, like do you think yes we won but we didn't really have the best car, that's good motivation for the people back at the factory?

I guess we're back to the fact that you basically skipped 50 pages of this thread to find anything you can to promote that the Mercedes was the fastest car right at the death.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:48 am 
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Tbh what Wolff said could be interpreted in many ways. Personally I think he means collectively as in car, driver, strategy, team etc but then i might be wrong. The biggest advantage I would say Mercedes have had is Hamilton, I have seen interviews by everyone at the top in Mercedes praising how he made the difference at circuits when Mercedes wasn't as competitive.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:07 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Tbh what Wolff said could be interpreted in many ways. Personally I think he means collectively as in car, driver, strategy, team etc but then i might be wrong. The biggest advantage I would say Mercedes have had is Hamilton, I have seen interviews by everyone at the top in Mercedes praising how he made the difference at circuits when Mercedes wasn't as competitive.

Indeed after winning all the titles you're not exactly going to say that Mercedes were worse in particular as generally speaking it was quite close anyway.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:41 pm 
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The best car of the year has probably already been decided for most at this stage, though it's quite close nonetheless. I should imagine there are many people in both camps giving either Mercedes or Ferrari the quite close but clear edge. It's been impossible to predict this season. Toward the end it seemed like Mercedes were just going to power through, and that didn't happen.

For the record, I have Ferrari ahead for the year regardless of what happens in the final race of the season tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:09 pm 
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Mercedes definitely quickest here in Abu Dhabi. Overall it was another close season like 2017 but, wheres Mercedes had the overall edge last year, this year the overall edge goes to Ferrari if we're talking only about the performance of the car. The championships have gone to Mercedes mostly due to vastly superior performance from the drivers and I'd give the edge to Mercedes' pit wall and team execution as well.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:34 pm 
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Invade wrote:
The best car of the year has probably already been decided for most at this stage, though it's quite close nonetheless. I should imagine there are many people in both camps giving either Mercedes or Ferrari the quite close but clear edge. It's been impossible to predict this season. Toward the end it seemed like Mercedes were just going to power through, and that didn't happen.

For the record, I have Ferrari ahead for the year regardless of what happens in the final race of the season tomorrow.


Anybody doing in depth analysis will conclude Ferrari and Mercedes to have been very close (possible Ferrari slight edge) but once reliability is allowed for it makes Ferrari better this season. Not by much but better.

However, things like "car of the year" votes and awards aren't that in depth. Mercedes will win all those awards. You win both titles, the most races, the most poles then you will win these awards. Similar to 2005 when the Mclaren was voted/award this accolade even though it broke down in 25% of the races. There are quite a few examples of this in F1 history. Mercedes could end up with 11 wins to Ferrari's 6 if they win tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:44 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Invade wrote:
The best car of the year has probably already been decided for most at this stage, though it's quite close nonetheless. I should imagine there are many people in both camps giving either Mercedes or Ferrari the quite close but clear edge. It's been impossible to predict this season. Toward the end it seemed like Mercedes were just going to power through, and that didn't happen.

For the record, I have Ferrari ahead for the year regardless of what happens in the final race of the season tomorrow.


Anybody doing in depth analysis will conclude Ferrari and Mercedes to have been very close (possible Ferrari slight edge) but once reliability is allowed for it makes Ferrari better this season. Not by much but better.

However, things like "car of the year" votes and awards aren't that in depth. Mercedes will win all those awards. You win both titles, the most races, the most poles then you will win these awards. Similar to 2005 when the Mclaren was voted/award this accolade even though it broke down in 25% of the races. There are quite a few examples of this in F1 history. Mercedes could end up with 11 wins to Ferrari's 6 if they win tomorrow.

2008 comes to mind. McLaren won car of the year that year and Ferrari clearly had the slight edge in performance.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Interesting that in their respective press conferences this weekend both Vettel and Toto seemed to think Mercedes have had a small advantage overall this season.

Mercedes in either the team, the car or the drivers?

Do you think that Wolff went through every race or just made a general statement, like do you think yes we won but we didn't really have the best car, that's good motivation for the people back at the factory?

I guess we're back to the fact that you basically skipped 50 pages of this thread to find anything you can to promote that the Mercedes was the fastest car right at the death.

Yes I'm quite sure Toto was present in each race.
Do you read through every page each time before posting?
Maybe you have a hard time dealing with evidence opposing your own view so your goal is to discredit the messenger?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:54 pm 
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Invade wrote:
The best car of the year has probably already been decided for most at this stage, though it's quite close nonetheless. I should imagine there are many people in both camps giving either Mercedes or Ferrari the quite close but clear edge. It's been impossible to predict this season. Toward the end it seemed like Mercedes were just going to power through, and that didn't happen.

For the record, I have Ferrari ahead for the year regardless of what happens in the final race of the season tomorrow.

Yeah I would have it 11-9 to Ferrari going into Abu Dhabi, looking at qualifying then it looks to be ending up as 11-10.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:55 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Invade wrote:
The best car of the year has probably already been decided for most at this stage, though it's quite close nonetheless. I should imagine there are many people in both camps giving either Mercedes or Ferrari the quite close but clear edge. It's been impossible to predict this season. Toward the end it seemed like Mercedes were just going to power through, and that didn't happen.

For the record, I have Ferrari ahead for the year regardless of what happens in the final race of the season tomorrow.


Anybody doing in depth analysis will conclude Ferrari and Mercedes to have been very close (possible Ferrari slight edge) but once reliability is allowed for it makes Ferrari better this season. Not by much but better.

However, things like "car of the year" votes and awards aren't that in depth. Mercedes will win all those awards. You win both titles, the most races, the most poles then you will win these awards. Similar to 2005 when the Mclaren was voted/award this accolade even though it broke down in 25% of the races. There are quite a few examples of this in F1 history. Mercedes could end up with 11 wins to Ferrari's 6 if they win tomorrow.

Indeed and that then will be used as evidence of Mercedes having the fastest car.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:57 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Invade wrote:
The best car of the year has probably already been decided for most at this stage, though it's quite close nonetheless. I should imagine there are many people in both camps giving either Mercedes or Ferrari the quite close but clear edge. It's been impossible to predict this season. Toward the end it seemed like Mercedes were just going to power through, and that didn't happen.

For the record, I have Ferrari ahead for the year regardless of what happens in the final race of the season tomorrow.


Anybody doing in depth analysis will conclude Ferrari and Mercedes to have been very close (possible Ferrari slight edge) but once reliability is allowed for it makes Ferrari better this season. Not by much but better.

However, things like "car of the year" votes and awards aren't that in depth. Mercedes will win all those awards. You win both titles, the most races, the most poles then you will win these awards. Similar to 2005 when the Mclaren was voted/award this accolade even though it broke down in 25% of the races. There are quite a few examples of this in F1 history. Mercedes could end up with 11 wins to Ferrari's 6 if they win tomorrow.

2008 comes to mind. McLaren won car of the year that year and Ferrari clearly had the slight edge in performance.

Also the talent that is Massa had the most race wins and Ferrari won the WCC.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:58 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Interesting that in their respective press conferences this weekend both Vettel and Toto seemed to think Mercedes have had a small advantage overall this season.

Mercedes in either the team, the car or the drivers?

Do you think that Wolff went through every race or just made a general statement, like do you think yes we won but we didn't really have the best car, that's good motivation for the people back at the factory?

I guess we're back to the fact that you basically skipped 50 pages of this thread to find anything you can to promote that the Mercedes was the fastest car right at the death.

Yes I'm quite sure Toto was present in each race.
Do you read through every page each time before posting?
Maybe you have a hard time dealing with evidence opposing your own view so your goal is to discredit the messenger?

What evidence?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:38 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Interesting that in their respective press conferences this weekend both Vettel and Toto seemed to think Mercedes have had a small advantage overall this season.

Mercedes in either the team, the car or the drivers?

Do you think that Wolff went through every race or just made a general statement, like do you think yes we won but we didn't really have the best car, that's good motivation for the people back at the factory?

I guess we're back to the fact that you basically skipped 50 pages of this thread to find anything you can to promote that the Mercedes was the fastest car right at the death.

Yes I'm quite sure Toto was present in each race.
Do you read through every page each time before posting?
Maybe you have a hard time dealing with evidence opposing your own view so your goal is to discredit the messenger?

What evidence?

Nope, not going to indulge you yet again with endless iterations of what has been said already.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:36 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Interesting that in their respective press conferences this weekend both Vettel and Toto seemed to think Mercedes have had a small advantage overall this season.

I would argue that it is in both of their interests to do so. For a truly unbiased appraisal I would be looking elsewhere.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:57 am 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Interesting that in their respective press conferences this weekend both Vettel and Toto seemed to think Mercedes have had a small advantage overall this season.

Mercedes in either the team, the car or the drivers?

Do you think that Wolff went through every race or just made a general statement, like do you think yes we won but we didn't really have the best car, that's good motivation for the people back at the factory?

I guess we're back to the fact that you basically skipped 50 pages of this thread to find anything you can to promote that the Mercedes was the fastest car right at the death.

Yes I'm quite sure Toto was present in each race.
Do you read through every page each time before posting?
Maybe you have a hard time dealing with evidence opposing your own view so your goal is to discredit the messenger?

What evidence?

Nope, not going to indulge you yet again with endless iterations of what has been said already.

So nothing?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:58 am 
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j man wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Interesting that in their respective press conferences this weekend both Vettel and Toto seemed to think Mercedes have had a small advantage overall this season.

I would argue that it is in both of their interests to do so. For a truly unbiased appraisal I would be looking elsewhere.

You mean like actual F1 experts?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:43 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
j man wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Interesting that in their respective press conferences this weekend both Vettel and Toto seemed to think Mercedes have had a small advantage overall this season.

I would argue that it is in both of their interests to do so. For a truly unbiased appraisal I would be looking elsewhere.

You mean like actual F1 experts?


When they don't agree with you you just dismiss them so why bother? : )


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:02 pm 
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https://streamable.com/e4d8r

Setup will have something to do with it, but it's amazing how much ground Mercedes make up on Ferrari through corners, and Ferrari through the straights.

As a rough count, I make it that Mercedes lose well more than half a second through acceleration and that's super conservative. Amazingly, Ferrari give up even more through the corners. Who should be more concerned for 2019? The Ferrari PU is outstanding, but does it utilise a "trick" which might be copied by other engine manufacturers for next season? How much of this is the result of setup and how much of it is the sheer superiority of either the Mercedes chassis or the Ferrari PU? And so on...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:43 am 
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AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
j man wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Interesting that in their respective press conferences this weekend both Vettel and Toto seemed to think Mercedes have had a small advantage overall this season.

I would argue that it is in both of their interests to do so. For a truly unbiased appraisal I would be looking elsewhere.

You mean like actual F1 experts?


When they don't agree with you you just dismiss them so why bother? : )

Like that out of date article that you provided, whilst all the up to date articles you simple ignore and keep going back to your out of date article.

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:47 am 
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Invade wrote:
https://streamable.com/e4d8r

Setup will have something to do with it, but it's amazing how much ground Mercedes make up on Ferrari through corners, and Ferrari through the straights.

As a rough count, I make it that Mercedes lose well more than half a second through acceleration and that's super conservative. Amazingly, Ferrari give up even more through the corners. Who should be more concerned for 2019? The Ferrari PU is outstanding, but does it utilise a "trick" which might be copied by other engine manufacturers for next season? How much of this is the result of setup and how much of it is the sheer superiority of either the Mercedes chassis or the Ferrari PU? And so on...

Also how does this get totally ignored this year, last year the Mercedes being quicker on the straights was proof enough that Mercedes had the best PU and thus the best car because of an unfair advantage, the tables got turned this year in that respect.

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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:22 am 
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Invade wrote:
https://streamable.com/e4d8r

Setup will have something to do with it, but it's amazing how much ground Mercedes make up on Ferrari through corners, and Ferrari through the straights.

As a rough count, I make it that Mercedes lose well more than half a second through acceleration and that's super conservative. Amazingly, Ferrari give up even more through the corners. Who should be more concerned for 2019? The Ferrari PU is outstanding, but does it utilise a "trick" which might be copied by other engine manufacturers for next season? How much of this is the result of setup and how much of it is the sheer superiority of either the Mercedes chassis or the Ferrari PU? And so on...

It's actually almost all under braking that Hamilton makes up time. Vettel gains through most of the faster corners but under braking and in the slower corners, Hamilton makes up ground.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:47 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mercedes in either the team, the car or the drivers?

Do you think that Wolff went through every race or just made a general statement, like do you think yes we won but we didn't really have the best car, that's good motivation for the people back at the factory?

I guess we're back to the fact that you basically skipped 50 pages of this thread to find anything you can to promote that the Mercedes was the fastest car right at the death.

Yes I'm quite sure Toto was present in each race.
Do you read through every page each time before posting?
Maybe you have a hard time dealing with evidence opposing your own view so your goal is to discredit the messenger?

What evidence?

Nope, not going to indulge you yet again with endless iterations of what has been said already.

So nothing?

So exactly what I already said. That evidence.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:55 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Yes I'm quite sure Toto was present in each race.
Do you read through every page each time before posting?
Maybe you have a hard time dealing with evidence opposing your own view so your goal is to discredit the messenger?

What evidence?

Nope, not going to indulge you yet again with endless iterations of what has been said already.

So nothing?

So exactly what I already said. That evidence.

So zilch just a throw away comment from Wolff.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What evidence?

Nope, not going to indulge you yet again with endless iterations of what has been said already.

So nothing?

So exactly what I already said. That evidence.

So zilch just a throw away comment from Wolff.

No matter how many times you say something is nothing does it make something into nothing. And here we go with the endless iterations.

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Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


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