planetf1.com

It is currently Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:49 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33080
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I'd swap Dan and Lewis and Hulk and Seb and drop Hulk for Leclerc I think.

Bottas,K-Mag,Hulk and maybe Gasly could all put up a decent enough argument for that last spot imo. Can't believe I'm leaving off the Force India boys, they've each had at least one great race but I can't say they've stood out that often compared to the above.

I think with Force India you're perhaps influenced by last seasons performance and maybe blaming the drivers this year and not the car?


I've just not noticed them beyond Baku and Monaco tbh.

Which happen too be 2 outstanding results, the car's simply not as good as last year.


No argument there but the others have more than one outstanding result. The midfield is close enough that outstanding results are possible like they both have showed.

Plus the car has been capable in China of finishing ahead of Alonso for example but he ran rings round them so it's not always been the cars fault.

Well I wouldn't be making a case for them being better than Alonso.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 5246
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think with Force India you're perhaps influenced by last seasons performance and maybe blaming the drivers this year and not the car?


I've just not noticed them beyond Baku and Monaco tbh.

Which happen too be 2 outstanding results, the car's simply not as good as last year.


No argument there but the others have more than one outstanding result. The midfield is close enough that outstanding results are possible like they both have showed.

Plus the car has been capable in China of finishing ahead of Alonso for example but he ran rings round them so it's not always been the cars fault.

Well I wouldn't be making a case for them being better than Alonso.


Not saying that, just pointing out it's not all down to their car being worse that they've not stood out as much this year as they've had at least one other opportunity.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33080
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I've just not noticed them beyond Baku and Monaco tbh.

Which happen too be 2 outstanding results, the car's simply not as good as last year.


No argument there but the others have more than one outstanding result. The midfield is close enough that outstanding results are possible like they both have showed.

Plus the car has been capable in China of finishing ahead of Alonso for example but he ran rings round them so it's not always been the cars fault.

Well I wouldn't be making a case for them being better than Alonso.


Not saying that, just pointing out it's not all down to their car being worse that they've not stood out as much this year as they've had at least one other opportunity.

You obviously keep a sharper eye out for such things than I do.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 5246
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Which happen too be 2 outstanding results, the car's simply not as good as last year.


No argument there but the others have more than one outstanding result. The midfield is close enough that outstanding results are possible like they both have showed.

Plus the car has been capable in China of finishing ahead of Alonso for example but he ran rings round them so it's not always been the cars fault.

Well I wouldn't be making a case for them being better than Alonso.


Not saying that, just pointing out it's not all down to their car being worse that they've not stood out as much this year as they've had at least one other opportunity.

You obviously keep a sharper eye out for such things than I do.


Keeping an eye on Alonso anyway which usually gives a decent look at the midfield shake up but even then I'm bound to miss things as it's a tight old fight there right now with teams changing order and seemingly taking huge backwards and forwards steps depending on track.

Hard to believe Haas were so anonymous this weekend for example. Next week it might be STR again or FI etc.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1967
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
This is why I really, really want Ricciardo to join Ferrari in 2019. I want to see another matchup between him and Vettel.

IMO the best drivers this season have been:

1. Alonso
2. Ricciardo
3. Hamilton
4. Hulkenberg
5. Vettel


What has Alonso done exactly? Beating drivers like Ocon and co? ofcourse he's gonna look good in the midfield, as he is not racing against people of the same calibre.

Ricciardo asides of Max deciding to self destruct he has been poor, considering both wins he has so far were nailed on for Max, the same guy who spun after a virtual safety car.

Hamilton has been poor this season asides from Austrailia, Spain and Monaco.

Hulkenberg I don't even know where to start with this.

Vettel asides the lock up into turn one at Baku, I can't think of any other mistake he has made this season only the SC coming out at the wrong time for him and Max has stopped him from leading the championship.


Alonso made a mistake in S1 in Australia Q2. And that's it, the rest he's either maximised his results on both days or looked set too and had arguably the race of the year so far in Baku.

Dan was nailed on for Monaco whatever Max did, he was quicker all weekend and he's been better in every race bar Spain and it's 3-3 in quali. You can't claim Max was nailed on for China as if he wasn't the one that blew it. Also in the argument for race and even weekend of the year for Monaco because of how he dealt with his issue.

Lewis has had one bad weekend where he was subpar, China, but apart from that he's been either solid (Bahrain,Monaco) or exceptional (Australia and Spain). Baku had an error but he had the pace all weekend as well. Hasn't thrown anything away, thanks in part to Bottas's puncture but still it's better than everyone else bar Alonso in terms of maximising results. Spain is another of the drives that are in contention for race/weekend of the year.

Hulk was doing what Alonso did until Baku but I think I'd have someone else there now as well.

Seb was poor in Australia both days and made a very costly error in Baku. He's probably the only one on the list without a standout drive this year as well but has been both unlucky with SC's and lucky. Just a bit meh so far this year although could well have had his standout drive in Baku but blew it.


In Australia he qualified behind Kimi and with how difficult it was to overtake he dropped back hounding Kimi won't have changed anything.
Bottas in the other Mercedes didn't blow past the Redbull, as Melbourne is not really different from Monaco when he got in front Hamilton with all the speed Hamilton had he didn't get past, coupled with the off track excursions he had while chasing him.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1967
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
This is why I really, really want Ricciardo to join Ferrari in 2019. I want to see another matchup between him and Vettel.

IMO the best drivers this season have been:

1. Alonso
2. Ricciardo
3. Hamilton
4. Hulkenberg
5. Vettel


What has Alonso done exactly? Beating drivers like Ocon and co? ofcourse he's gonna look good in the midfield, as he is not racing against people of the same calibre.

Ricciardo asides of Max deciding to self destruct he has been poor, considering both wins he has so far were nailed on for Max, the same guy who spun after a virtual safety car.

Hamilton has been poor this season asides from Austrailia, Spain and Monaco.

Hulkenberg I don't even know where to start with this.

Vettel asides the lock up into turn one at Baku, I can't think of any other mistake he has made this season only the SC coming out at the wrong time for him and Max has stopped him from leading the championship.


Yep you're correct. Everyone's been terrible but Vettel.


I put Vettel's mistake in there as well, but as usual reading comprehension you see only what you want to see.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 5246
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
This is why I really, really want Ricciardo to join Ferrari in 2019. I want to see another matchup between him and Vettel.

IMO the best drivers this season have been:

1. Alonso
2. Ricciardo
3. Hamilton
4. Hulkenberg
5. Vettel


What has Alonso done exactly? Beating drivers like Ocon and co? ofcourse he's gonna look good in the midfield, as he is not racing against people of the same calibre.

Ricciardo asides of Max deciding to self destruct he has been poor, considering both wins he has so far were nailed on for Max, the same guy who spun after a virtual safety car.

Hamilton has been poor this season asides from Austrailia, Spain and Monaco.

Hulkenberg I don't even know where to start with this.

Vettel asides the lock up into turn one at Baku, I can't think of any other mistake he has made this season only the SC coming out at the wrong time for him and Max has stopped him from leading the championship.


Alonso made a mistake in S1 in Australia Q2. And that's it, the rest he's either maximised his results on both days or looked set too and had arguably the race of the year so far in Baku.

Dan was nailed on for Monaco whatever Max did, he was quicker all weekend and he's been better in every race bar Spain and it's 3-3 in quali. You can't claim Max was nailed on for China as if he wasn't the one that blew it. Also in the argument for race and even weekend of the year for Monaco because of how he dealt with his issue.

Lewis has had one bad weekend where he was subpar, China, but apart from that he's been either solid (Bahrain,Monaco) or exceptional (Australia and Spain). Baku had an error but he had the pace all weekend as well. Hasn't thrown anything away, thanks in part to Bottas's puncture but still it's better than everyone else bar Alonso in terms of maximising results. Spain is another of the drives that are in contention for race/weekend of the year.

Hulk was doing what Alonso did until Baku but I think I'd have someone else there now as well.

Seb was poor in Australia both days and made a very costly error in Baku. He's probably the only one on the list without a standout drive this year as well but has been both unlucky with SC's and lucky. Just a bit meh so far this year although could well have had his standout drive in Baku but blew it.


In Australia he qualified behind Kimi and with how difficult it was to overtake he dropped back hounding Kimi won't have changed anything.
Bottas in the other Mercedes didn't blow past the Redbull, as Melbourne is not really different from Monaco when he got in front Hamilton with all the speed Hamilton had he didn't get past, coupled with the off track excursions he had while chasing him.


He wasn't poor because he couldn't pass, he just looked slower all weekend. I'm not buying the dropping back either.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1967
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
This is why I really, really want Ricciardo to join Ferrari in 2019. I want to see another matchup between him and Vettel.

IMO the best drivers this season have been:

1. Alonso
2. Ricciardo
3. Hamilton
4. Hulkenberg
5. Vettel


What has Alonso done exactly? Beating drivers like Ocon and co? ofcourse he's gonna look good in the midfield, as he is not racing against people of the same calibre.

Ricciardo asides of Max deciding to self destruct he has been poor, considering both wins he has so far were nailed on for Max, the same guy who spun after a virtual safety car.

Hamilton has been poor this season asides from Austrailia, Spain and Monaco.

Hulkenberg I don't even know where to start with this.

Vettel asides the lock up into turn one at Baku, I can't think of any other mistake he has made this season only the SC coming out at the wrong time for him and Max has stopped him from leading the championship.


Alonso made a mistake in S1 in Australia Q2. And that's it, the rest he's either maximised his results on both days or looked set too and had arguably the race of the year so far in Baku.

Dan was nailed on for Monaco whatever Max did, he was quicker all weekend and he's been better in every race bar Spain and it's 3-3 in quali. You can't claim Max was nailed on for China as if he wasn't the one that blew it. Also in the argument for race and even weekend of the year for Monaco because of how he dealt with his issue.

Lewis has had one bad weekend where he was subpar, China, but apart from that he's been either solid (Bahrain,Monaco) or exceptional (Australia and Spain). Baku had an error but he had the pace all weekend as well. Hasn't thrown anything away, thanks in part to Bottas's puncture but still it's better than everyone else bar Alonso in terms of maximising results. Spain is another of the drives that are in contention for race/weekend of the year.

Hulk was doing what Alonso did until Baku but I think I'd have someone else there now as well.

Seb was poor in Australia both days and made a very costly error in Baku. He's probably the only one on the list without a standout drive this year as well but has been both unlucky with SC's and lucky. Just a bit meh so far this year although could well have had his standout drive in Baku but blew it.


Oh yeah Bahrain wasn't a stand out drive I see.

Lewis one bad weekend I suspect because he won in Baku changed the impression that he was being dropped all race and also with lock up after lock up in the first stint, which got him on sub par strategy and even a slower Bottas jumping him.

So stand out drives and now pole to flag.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1967
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
This is why I really, really want Ricciardo to join Ferrari in 2019. I want to see another matchup between him and Vettel.

IMO the best drivers this season have been:

1. Alonso
2. Ricciardo
3. Hamilton
4. Hulkenberg
5. Vettel


What has Alonso done exactly? Beating drivers like Ocon and co? ofcourse he's gonna look good in the midfield, as he is not racing against people of the same calibre.

Ricciardo asides of Max deciding to self destruct he has been poor, considering both wins he has so far were nailed on for Max, the same guy who spun after a virtual safety car.

Hamilton has been poor this season asides from Austrailia, Spain and Monaco.

Hulkenberg I don't even know where to start with this.

Vettel asides the lock up into turn one at Baku, I can't think of any other mistake he has made this season only the SC coming out at the wrong time for him and Max has stopped him from leading the championship.


Alonso made a mistake in S1 in Australia Q2. And that's it, the rest he's either maximised his results on both days or looked set too and had arguably the race of the year so far in Baku.

Dan was nailed on for Monaco whatever Max did, he was quicker all weekend and he's been better in every race bar Spain and it's 3-3 in quali. You can't claim Max was nailed on for China as if he wasn't the one that blew it. Also in the argument for race and even weekend of the year for Monaco because of how he dealt with his issue.

Lewis has had one bad weekend where he was subpar, China, but apart from that he's been either solid (Bahrain,Monaco) or exceptional (Australia and Spain). Baku had an error but he had the pace all weekend as well. Hasn't thrown anything away, thanks in part to Bottas's puncture but still it's better than everyone else bar Alonso in terms of maximising results. Spain is another of the drives that are in contention for race/weekend of the year.

Hulk was doing what Alonso did until Baku but I think I'd have someone else there now as well.

Seb was poor in Australia both days and made a very costly error in Baku. He's probably the only one on the list without a standout drive this year as well but has been both unlucky with SC's and lucky. Just a bit meh so far this year although could well have had his standout drive in Baku but blew it.


In Australia he qualified behind Kimi and with how difficult it was to overtake he dropped back hounding Kimi won't have changed anything.
Bottas in the other Mercedes didn't blow past the Redbull, as Melbourne is not really different from Monaco when he got in front Hamilton with all the speed Hamilton had he didn't get past, coupled with the off track excursions he had while chasing him.


He wasn't poor because he couldn't pass, he just looked slower all weekend. I'm not buying the dropping back either.


Yet when he got in the lead Hamilton could not get past him.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 6940
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

What has Alonso done exactly? Beating drivers like Ocon and co? ofcourse he's gonna look good in the midfield, as he is not racing against people of the same calibre.

Ricciardo asides of Max deciding to self destruct he has been poor, considering both wins he has so far were nailed on for Max, the same guy who spun after a virtual safety car.

Hamilton has been poor this season asides from Austrailia, Spain and Monaco.

Hulkenberg I don't even know where to start with this.

Vettel asides the lock up into turn one at Baku, I can't think of any other mistake he has made this season only the SC coming out at the wrong time for him and Max has stopped him from leading the championship.


Alonso made a mistake in S1 in Australia Q2. And that's it, the rest he's either maximised his results on both days or looked set too and had arguably the race of the year so far in Baku.

Dan was nailed on for Monaco whatever Max did, he was quicker all weekend and he's been better in every race bar Spain and it's 3-3 in quali. You can't claim Max was nailed on for China as if he wasn't the one that blew it. Also in the argument for race and even weekend of the year for Monaco because of how he dealt with his issue.

Lewis has had one bad weekend where he was subpar, China, but apart from that he's been either solid (Bahrain,Monaco) or exceptional (Australia and Spain). Baku had an error but he had the pace all weekend as well. Hasn't thrown anything away, thanks in part to Bottas's puncture but still it's better than everyone else bar Alonso in terms of maximising results. Spain is another of the drives that are in contention for race/weekend of the year.

Hulk was doing what Alonso did until Baku but I think I'd have someone else there now as well.

Seb was poor in Australia both days and made a very costly error in Baku. He's probably the only one on the list without a standout drive this year as well but has been both unlucky with SC's and lucky. Just a bit meh so far this year although could well have had his standout drive in Baku but blew it.


In Australia he qualified behind Kimi and with how difficult it was to overtake he dropped back hounding Kimi won't have changed anything.
Bottas in the other Mercedes didn't blow past the Redbull, as Melbourne is not really different from Monaco when he got in front Hamilton with all the speed Hamilton had he didn't get past, coupled with the off track excursions he had while chasing him.


He wasn't poor because he couldn't pass, he just looked slower all weekend. I'm not buying the dropping back either.


Yet when he got in the lead Hamilton could not get past him.

No one could get past anyone there. Australia is second only to Monaco in that regard.

For me, driver of the year at this stage is difficult to call. Funny how no one mentions Magnussen despite his dominance of his teammate and regular points scoring in a midfield car. guess only Alonso gets credit for that...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 5246
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

Alonso made a mistake in S1 in Australia Q2. And that's it, the rest he's either maximised his results on both days or looked set too and had arguably the race of the year so far in Baku.

Dan was nailed on for Monaco whatever Max did, he was quicker all weekend and he's been better in every race bar Spain and it's 3-3 in quali. You can't claim Max was nailed on for China as if he wasn't the one that blew it. Also in the argument for race and even weekend of the year for Monaco because of how he dealt with his issue.

Lewis has had one bad weekend where he was subpar, China, but apart from that he's been either solid (Bahrain,Monaco) or exceptional (Australia and Spain). Baku had an error but he had the pace all weekend as well. Hasn't thrown anything away, thanks in part to Bottas's puncture but still it's better than everyone else bar Alonso in terms of maximising results. Spain is another of the drives that are in contention for race/weekend of the year.

Hulk was doing what Alonso did until Baku but I think I'd have someone else there now as well.

Seb was poor in Australia both days and made a very costly error in Baku. He's probably the only one on the list without a standout drive this year as well but has been both unlucky with SC's and lucky. Just a bit meh so far this year although could well have had his standout drive in Baku but blew it.


In Australia he qualified behind Kimi and with how difficult it was to overtake he dropped back hounding Kimi won't have changed anything.
Bottas in the other Mercedes didn't blow past the Redbull, as Melbourne is not really different from Monaco when he got in front Hamilton with all the speed Hamilton had he didn't get past, coupled with the off track excursions he had while chasing him.


He wasn't poor because he couldn't pass, he just looked slower all weekend. I'm not buying the dropping back either.


Yet when he got in the lead Hamilton could not get past him.

No one could get past anyone there. Australia is second only to Monaco in that regard.

For me, driver of the year at this stage is difficult to call. Funny how no one mentions Magnussen despite his dominance of his teammate and regular points scoring in a midfield car. guess only Alonso gets credit for that...


Pretty sure it's because he was rubbish and drove like a numpty in Baku and wasn't very good in China either.

No double standard there.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 4:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16245
sandman1347 wrote:
No one could get past anyone there. Australia is second only to Monaco in that regard.

For me, driver of the year at this stage is difficult to call. Funny how no one mentions Magnussen despite his dominance of his teammate and regular points scoring in a midfield car. guess only Alonso gets credit for that...


Alonso doesn't get praise for consistently scoring points he gets praise for being 7th in the WDC in a car that should probably put him about 11-14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 4:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 6940
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No one could get past anyone there. Australia is second only to Monaco in that regard.

For me, driver of the year at this stage is difficult to call. Funny how no one mentions Magnussen despite his dominance of his teammate and regular points scoring in a midfield car. guess only Alonso gets credit for that...


Alonso doesn't get praise for consistently scoring points he gets praise for being 7th in the WDC in a car that should probably put him about 11-14

What exactly do you base that on? He's behind the big three teams. Once you get past those teams, who exactly do you expect to beat Alonso? The only other car that generally seems better is the Haas and it's not exactly better everywhere (certainly wasn't better in Monaco). The midfield is extremely tight and the McLaren is not at a particular disadvantage to those other cars. I would expect Alonso to make the difference in this scenario. Is the fact that he has outscored those two Haas guys supposed to be some huge achievement? If so, shouldn't we give Sainz and Hulk some credit too?

For the record, I think Alonso might actually be the driver of the year so far but I'm not going to spin his performance against mediocre drivers as some kind of huge achievement. This whole spell at McLaren, he has been racing primarily against guys who are not on his level or even close for that matter.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 8:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 5246
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No one could get past anyone there. Australia is second only to Monaco in that regard.

For me, driver of the year at this stage is difficult to call. Funny how no one mentions Magnussen despite his dominance of his teammate and regular points scoring in a midfield car. guess only Alonso gets credit for that...


Alonso doesn't get praise for consistently scoring points he gets praise for being 7th in the WDC in a car that should probably put him about 11-14

What exactly do you base that on? He's behind the big three teams. Once you get past those teams, who exactly do you expect to beat Alonso? The only other car that generally seems better is the Haas and it's not exactly better everywhere (certainly wasn't better in Monaco). The midfield is extremely tight and the McLaren is not at a particular disadvantage to those other cars. I would expect Alonso to make the difference in this scenario. Is the fact that he has outscored those two Haas guys supposed to be some huge achievement? If so, shouldn't we give Sainz and Hulk some credit too?

For the record, I think Alonso might actually be the driver of the year so far but I'm not going to spin his performance against mediocre drivers as some kind of huge achievement. This whole spell at McLaren, he has been racing primarily against guys who are not on his level or even close for that matter.


You can't have been paying much attention to the midfield if you really believe that. What Alonso's doing doesn't need spun in the first place. Much like Red Bull, McLaren have or at least until Spain had, a big disadvantage in qualifying which then decreases in race pace to varying degrees depending on track. Closer to 4th on the likes of Australia but closer to 7th in Bahrain yet he still finished 5:7:7:7:8 and was on for similar again in Monaco.

McLaren have been behind on a Saturday to..

Renault everywhere
Haas everywhere but Monaco
Force India in Bahrain,Baku,China and (potentially)Monaco*
STR in Bahrain
Williams in Baku
Potentially Sauber in Baku. (0.055 separated the lead McLaren and lead Sauber)


They've generally been in 6th/7th on a Saturday with teams taking turns in leapfrogging them so it's not always behind those last 4 but they have been at certain points and always with the Haas and Renault added on as well until Monaco. And the gaps weren't small either in qualifying before the new nose in Spain, we're talking 0.5 to 1.5 spread to the 4th best before then depending on track.

On race day they are much better, at least in Alonso's hands they have been much closer and on their best tracks like Australia and China were in the ballpark of Renault,Force India and Haas pace for 4-7th when it's those three and he's in clear air but STR in Bahrain were too strong and Baku they were nowhere but had a damaged car to blame as well to be fair.

Alonso has been giving up sometimes significant performance to Hulk,Sainz,Perez,Ocon,K-Mag and RoGro and and is leading them all in the table. That's not to be sniffed at even if they were in equal cars.

They aren't Seb,Lewis and the Bull boys sure but those guys with the exception of RoGro this year aren't scrubs and dirty air exists in the midfield too and yet he keeps delivering even when his car is a mess like in Baku and before Spain was having to do it from outside the top 10. He got lucky in Australia though.

It really doesn't need spun because they aren't only behind Haas and have no particular disadvantage to the other midfield cars. They've had significant disadvantage on a Saturday and at their best in the ballpark for 4th-7th on a Sunday but are having to come from behind to do anything.

It's not just about whether you expect him to beat those drivers, we expect Lewis to beat Bottas don't we but things happen, drivers outperform their usual or expected standard, form dips, you make a mistake etc..and I'm not convinced he's (Bottas) much if any better than the likes of Hulk,Sainz and Perez. It wouldn't be a meh thing to beat those drivers with equal cars never mind a slower one.

Sorry for the long one here,lol.


*Ocon was one of only 3 drivers to nail his ultimate lap time in Monaco and Alonso was one of the other 16 and they were close in Q3 so I don't know for certain if FI were quicker, I could be persuaded otherwise I think.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 9:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16245
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No one could get past anyone there. Australia is second only to Monaco in that regard.

For me, driver of the year at this stage is difficult to call. Funny how no one mentions Magnussen despite his dominance of his teammate and regular points scoring in a midfield car. guess only Alonso gets credit for that...


Alonso doesn't get praise for consistently scoring points he gets praise for being 7th in the WDC in a car that should probably put him about 11-14

What exactly do you base that on? He's behind the big three teams. Once you get past those teams, who exactly do you expect to beat Alonso? The only other car that generally seems better is the Haas and it's not exactly better everywhere (certainly wasn't better in Monaco). The midfield is extremely tight and the McLaren is not at a particular disadvantage to those other cars. I would expect Alonso to make the difference in this scenario. Is the fact that he has outscored those two Haas guys supposed to be some huge achievement? If so, shouldn't we give Sainz and Hulk some credit too?

For the record, I think Alonso might actually be the driver of the year so far but I'm not going to spin his performance against mediocre drivers as some kind of huge achievement. This whole spell at McLaren, he has been racing primarily against guys who are not on his level or even close for that matter.


The Haas and the Renault for sure have been faster over the course of the season. That already put's Alonso expected Championship position back to 11th or 12th. The wild card is the STR. Look how well it ran at Bahrain. A track where Gasly is a specialist. I think it's likely with a top driver it would be seen up behind the big 3 and quite often. But I agree that's not a certainty. It's worth noting though that if it was the car rather than driver performing well in Bahrain then why didn't Hartley put in any better than his usual result?

Sainz is 9th where the Renault should be and Hulk is 8th one place above and people seem to agree Hulk is driving well.

**I had forgotten about FI as well but when you factor out the drivers they could very well be competitive with the Mclaren. How much faster is Alonso compared to Perez do you think?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7407
Location: Michigan, USA
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Has Hamilton been poor because he's been out qualified by Bottas a couple of times while Ricciardo being out qualified by Verstappen sort of gets over looked?

I do think getting out qualified by Bottas is worse than getting out qualified by Verstappen. If you have two very quick drivers the qualifying battle is unlikely to be one sided.

Ricciardo gets out qualified by Verstappen more often than Hamilton gets out qualified by Bottas, the 2 times that Bottas out qualified Hamilton was less than a tenth of a second, I'm not sure how you differentiate that Ricciardo has been qualifying better than Hamilton?

Here's how:

Ricciardo has gone 1-3 in qualifying against Verstappen (although one of them was really about as close to a tie as you can get), with an average gap of +0.086. Two qualifying sessions where Max crashed or did not take part are excluded.

Hamilton has gone 3-2 against Bottas, with an average gap of -0.017. One qualifying session where Bottas crashed is excluded.

Combining Hamilton's advantage over Bottas (0.017) with Ricciardo's average deficit to Verstappen (0.086), you get an unadjusted difference of 0.103 seconds. If their teammates are equal, Hamilton is outperforming Ricciardo by an average of just over a tenth in qualifying.

However, if Bottas is anything more than 0.103 seconds slower than Verstappen, Ricciardo is outperforming Hamilton. I'll let you decide: do you think Bottas is within a tenth of Max?

And that aside, do you really feel like less than 2 hundredths of a second is the sort of average gap Hamilton should be having over a driver of Bottas' caliber?

Hamilton's gap is 0.05s.

You're right, I apparently miscounted Monaco somehow. It only changes the question slightly: do you think Bottas is within a tenth and a half of Max, and do you think half a tenth is the sort of advantage Lewis should have over Bottas if he was driving at his peak?

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33080
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Alonso made a mistake in S1 in Australia Q2. And that's it, the rest he's either maximised his results on both days or looked set too and had arguably the race of the year so far in Baku.

Dan was nailed on for Monaco whatever Max did, he was quicker all weekend and he's been better in every race bar Spain and it's 3-3 in quali. You can't claim Max was nailed on for China as if he wasn't the one that blew it. Also in the argument for race and even weekend of the year for Monaco because of how he dealt with his issue.

Lewis has had one bad weekend where he was subpar, China, but apart from that he's been either solid (Bahrain,Monaco) or exceptional (Australia and Spain). Baku had an error but he had the pace all weekend as well. Hasn't thrown anything away, thanks in part to Bottas's puncture but still it's better than everyone else bar Alonso in terms of maximising results. Spain is another of the drives that are in contention for race/weekend of the year.

Hulk was doing what Alonso did until Baku but I think I'd have someone else there now as well.

Seb was poor in Australia both days and made a very costly error in Baku. He's probably the only one on the list without a standout drive this year as well but has been both unlucky with SC's and lucky. Just a bit meh so far this year although could well have had his standout drive in Baku but blew it.


In Australia he qualified behind Kimi and with how difficult it was to overtake he dropped back hounding Kimi won't have changed anything.
Bottas in the other Mercedes didn't blow past the Redbull, as Melbourne is not really different from Monaco when he got in front Hamilton with all the speed Hamilton had he didn't get past, coupled with the off track excursions he had while chasing him.


He wasn't poor because he couldn't pass, he just looked slower all weekend. I'm not buying the dropping back either.


Yet when he got in the lead Hamilton could not get past him.

No one could get past anyone there. Australia is second only to Monaco in that regard.

For me, driver of the year at this stage is difficult to call. Funny how no one mentions Magnussen despite his dominance of his teammate and regular points scoring in a midfield car. guess only Alonso gets credit for that...

I would be loathe to nominate someone like KMag who put Gasly up against the wall in Baku.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33080
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I do think getting out qualified by Bottas is worse than getting out qualified by Verstappen. If you have two very quick drivers the qualifying battle is unlikely to be one sided.

Ricciardo gets out qualified by Verstappen more often than Hamilton gets out qualified by Bottas, the 2 times that Bottas out qualified Hamilton was less than a tenth of a second, I'm not sure how you differentiate that Ricciardo has been qualifying better than Hamilton?

Here's how:

Ricciardo has gone 1-3 in qualifying against Verstappen (although one of them was really about as close to a tie as you can get), with an average gap of +0.086. Two qualifying sessions where Max crashed or did not take part are excluded.

Hamilton has gone 3-2 against Bottas, with an average gap of -0.017. One qualifying session where Bottas crashed is excluded.

Combining Hamilton's advantage over Bottas (0.017) with Ricciardo's average deficit to Verstappen (0.086), you get an unadjusted difference of 0.103 seconds. If their teammates are equal, Hamilton is outperforming Ricciardo by an average of just over a tenth in qualifying.

However, if Bottas is anything more than 0.103 seconds slower than Verstappen, Ricciardo is outperforming Hamilton. I'll let you decide: do you think Bottas is within a tenth of Max?

And that aside, do you really feel like less than 2 hundredths of a second is the sort of average gap Hamilton should be having over a driver of Bottas' caliber?

Hamilton's gap is 0.05s.

You're right, I apparently miscounted Monaco somehow. It only changes the question slightly: do you think Bottas is within a tenth and a half of Max, and do you think half a tenth is the sort of advantage Lewis should have over Bottas if he was driving at his peak?

Unfortunately what slews this a bit is that Hamilton was going to give Bottas a whopping in Australia but Bottas put the car in the wall, potentially the average could have been more like 0.12s.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 4:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ricciardo gets out qualified by Verstappen more often than Hamilton gets out qualified by Bottas, the 2 times that Bottas out qualified Hamilton was less than a tenth of a second, I'm not sure how you differentiate that Ricciardo has been qualifying better than Hamilton?

Here's how:

Ricciardo has gone 1-3 in qualifying against Verstappen (although one of them was really about as close to a tie as you can get), with an average gap of +0.086. Two qualifying sessions where Max crashed or did not take part are excluded.

Hamilton has gone 3-2 against Bottas, with an average gap of -0.017. One qualifying session where Bottas crashed is excluded.

Combining Hamilton's advantage over Bottas (0.017) with Ricciardo's average deficit to Verstappen (0.086), you get an unadjusted difference of 0.103 seconds. If their teammates are equal, Hamilton is outperforming Ricciardo by an average of just over a tenth in qualifying.

However, if Bottas is anything more than 0.103 seconds slower than Verstappen, Ricciardo is outperforming Hamilton. I'll let you decide: do you think Bottas is within a tenth of Max?

And that aside, do you really feel like less than 2 hundredths of a second is the sort of average gap Hamilton should be having over a driver of Bottas' caliber?

Hamilton's gap is 0.05s.

You're right, I apparently miscounted Monaco somehow. It only changes the question slightly: do you think Bottas is within a tenth and a half of Max, and do you think half a tenth is the sort of advantage Lewis should have over Bottas if he was driving at his peak?

Unfortunately what slews this a bit is that Hamilton was going to give Bottas a whopping in Australia but Bottas put the car in the wall, potentially the average could have been more like 0.12s.

How do we know it would have been a whopping if he put it into the wall? :?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 4:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33080
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Ricciardo has gone 1-3 in qualifying against Verstappen (although one of them was really about as close to a tie as you can get), with an average gap of +0.086. Two qualifying sessions where Max crashed or did not take part are excluded.

Hamilton has gone 3-2 against Bottas, with an average gap of -0.017. One qualifying session where Bottas crashed is excluded.

Combining Hamilton's advantage over Bottas (0.017) with Ricciardo's average deficit to Verstappen (0.086), you get an unadjusted difference of 0.103 seconds. If their teammates are equal, Hamilton is outperforming Ricciardo by an average of just over a tenth in qualifying.

However, if Bottas is anything more than 0.103 seconds slower than Verstappen, Ricciardo is outperforming Hamilton. I'll let you decide: do you think Bottas is within a tenth of Max?

And that aside, do you really feel like less than 2 hundredths of a second is the sort of average gap Hamilton should be having over a driver of Bottas' caliber?

Hamilton's gap is 0.05s.

You're right, I apparently miscounted Monaco somehow. It only changes the question slightly: do you think Bottas is within a tenth and a half of Max, and do you think half a tenth is the sort of advantage Lewis should have over Bottas if he was driving at his peak?

Unfortunately what slews this a bit is that Hamilton was going to give Bottas a whopping in Australia but Bottas put the car in the wall, potentially the average could have been more like 0.12s.

How do we know it would have been a whopping if he put it into the wall? :?

Because Hamilton had been looking so much quicker, I know you put his lap down to a party mode at the time.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton's gap is 0.05s.

You're right, I apparently miscounted Monaco somehow. It only changes the question slightly: do you think Bottas is within a tenth and a half of Max, and do you think half a tenth is the sort of advantage Lewis should have over Bottas if he was driving at his peak?

Unfortunately what slews this a bit is that Hamilton was going to give Bottas a whopping in Australia but Bottas put the car in the wall, potentially the average could have been more like 0.12s.

How do we know it would have been a whopping if he put it into the wall? :?

Because Hamilton had been looking so much quicker, I know you put his lap down to a party mode at the time.

But he hadn't though. Three hundredths separated them in Q2. How is that so much quicker? You're making a prediction of outcome based on nothing more than wishful thinking as far as I can see


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7407
Location: Michigan, USA
pokerman wrote:
Unfortunately what slews this a bit is that Hamilton was going to give Bottas a whopping in Australia but Bottas put the car in the wall, potentially the average could have been more like 0.12s.

The last comparative time we had between them was in Q2, where Hamilton was less than half a tenth up on Bottas. There's nothing but your own belief in Hamilton to suggest he was going to have 7 tenths over his teammate.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 8:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2644
pokerman wrote:
Unfortunately what slews this a bit is that Hamilton was going to give Bottas a whopping in Australia but Bottas put the car in the wall, potentially the average could have been more like 0.12s.

Last year Hamilton had a 0.291s advantage over Bottas around Melbourne. If we assume a similar advantage this season, this would change his average advantage over Bottas only slightly.

As it stands Hamilton's average advantage over Bottas in the 5 qualifying sessions where we have data is 0.053s


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33080
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
You're right, I apparently miscounted Monaco somehow. It only changes the question slightly: do you think Bottas is within a tenth and a half of Max, and do you think half a tenth is the sort of advantage Lewis should have over Bottas if he was driving at his peak?

Unfortunately what slews this a bit is that Hamilton was going to give Bottas a whopping in Australia but Bottas put the car in the wall, potentially the average could have been more like 0.12s.

How do we know it would have been a whopping if he put it into the wall? :?

Because Hamilton had been looking so much quicker, I know you put his lap down to a party mode at the time.

But he hadn't though. Three hundredths separated them in Q2. How is that so much quicker? You're making a prediction of outcome based on nothing more than wishful thinking as far as I can see

Bottas had to do a second run in Q2 because his first run was not quick enough, also Hamilton wouldn't have been flat out in Q2 unless you still want to believe that the party mode gave Hamilton 9 tenths in Q3.

Anyway:-

FP1 - Hamilton 0.5s
FP2 - Hamilton 0.2s
FP3 - Wet
Q1 - Hamilton 0.8s
Q2 (1st runs) - Hamilton 0.6s

No just wishful thinking on my part that Hamilton was looking quite a bit quicker.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Unfortunately what slews this a bit is that Hamilton was going to give Bottas a whopping in Australia but Bottas put the car in the wall, potentially the average could have been more like 0.12s.

How do we know it would have been a whopping if he put it into the wall? :?

Because Hamilton had been looking so much quicker, I know you put his lap down to a party mode at the time.

But he hadn't though. Three hundredths separated them in Q2. How is that so much quicker? You're making a prediction of outcome based on nothing more than wishful thinking as far as I can see

Bottas had to do a second run in Q2 because his first run was not quick enough, also Hamilton wouldn't have been flat out in Q2 unless you still want to believe that the party mode gave Hamilton 9 tenths in Q3.

Anyway:-

FP1 - Hamilton 0.5s
FP2 - Hamilton 0.2s
FP3 - Wet
Q1 - Hamilton 0.8s
Q2 (1st runs) - Hamilton 0.6s

No just wishful thinking on my part that Hamilton was looking quite a bit quicker.

That’s completely rubbish. You can’t take FP times as indicative of qualifying times. And even you must see the absurdity of not taking overall Q2 times. It takes a special kind of bias to take those figures...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33080
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Unfortunately what slews this a bit is that Hamilton was going to give Bottas a whopping in Australia but Bottas put the car in the wall, potentially the average could have been more like 0.12s.

Last year Hamilton had a 0.291s advantage over Bottas around Melbourne. If we assume a similar advantage this season, this would change his average advantage over Bottas only slightly.

As it stands Hamilton's average advantage over Bottas in the 5 qualifying sessions where we have data is 0.053s

It would change it to 0.093s and Hamilton looked to have every bit the same advantage this year if not more?

Qualifying as a rule is not lineal, everyone gets out qualified now and again and in that respect 5 races is a small sample, Bottas out qualified Hamilton a number of times last year as well, Australia is unfortunate in relating to the level of Hamilton's qualifying thus far with the comparison you was trying to make.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33080
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
How do we know it would have been a whopping if he put it into the wall? :?

Because Hamilton had been looking so much quicker, I know you put his lap down to a party mode at the time.

But he hadn't though. Three hundredths separated them in Q2. How is that so much quicker? You're making a prediction of outcome based on nothing more than wishful thinking as far as I can see

Bottas had to do a second run in Q2 because his first run was not quick enough, also Hamilton wouldn't have been flat out in Q2 unless you still want to believe that the party mode gave Hamilton 9 tenths in Q3.

Anyway:-

FP1 - Hamilton 0.5s
FP2 - Hamilton 0.2s
FP3 - Wet
Q1 - Hamilton 0.8s
Q2 (1st runs) - Hamilton 0.6s

No just wishful thinking on my part that Hamilton was looking quite a bit quicker.

That’s completely rubbish. You can’t take FP times as indicative of qualifying times. And even you must see the absurdity of not taking overall Q2 times. It takes a special kind of bias to take those figures...

I'm showing how Hamilton was consistently quicker than Bottas, Bottas had to do a second run in Q2 because his first run wasn't quick enough whilst you must still believe that Hamilton was close to his limit in Q2 then simply turned the engine up to 11 in Q3 to go 9 tenths quicker.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Because Hamilton had been looking so much quicker, I know you put his lap down to a party mode at the time.

But he hadn't though. Three hundredths separated them in Q2. How is that so much quicker? You're making a prediction of outcome based on nothing more than wishful thinking as far as I can see

Bottas had to do a second run in Q2 because his first run was not quick enough, also Hamilton wouldn't have been flat out in Q2 unless you still want to believe that the party mode gave Hamilton 9 tenths in Q3.

Anyway:-

FP1 - Hamilton 0.5s
FP2 - Hamilton 0.2s
FP3 - Wet
Q1 - Hamilton 0.8s
Q2 (1st runs) - Hamilton 0.6s

No just wishful thinking on my part that Hamilton was looking quite a bit quicker.

That’s completely rubbish. You can’t take FP times as indicative of qualifying times. And even you must see the absurdity of not taking overall Q2 times. It takes a special kind of bias to take those figures...

I'm showing how Hamilton was consistently quicker than Bottas, Bottas had to do a second run in Q2 because his first run wasn't quick enough whilst you must still believe that Hamilton was close to his limit in Q2 then simply turned the engine up to 11 in Q3 to go 9 tenths quicker.

I don’t have to believe anything. I can just look at the facts which show that bottas was less than a tenth down in Hamilton. Extrapolating anything from that for Q3 is pure projection I’m afraid. Deep down you must know that I’m afraid.

This is why it can be so difficult to debate with you. You take things which are 100% opinion, heavily biased opinion at that, and try to pass them off as fact


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33080
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
But he hadn't though. Three hundredths separated them in Q2. How is that so much quicker? You're making a prediction of outcome based on nothing more than wishful thinking as far as I can see

Bottas had to do a second run in Q2 because his first run was not quick enough, also Hamilton wouldn't have been flat out in Q2 unless you still want to believe that the party mode gave Hamilton 9 tenths in Q3.

Anyway:-

FP1 - Hamilton 0.5s
FP2 - Hamilton 0.2s
FP3 - Wet
Q1 - Hamilton 0.8s
Q2 (1st runs) - Hamilton 0.6s

No just wishful thinking on my part that Hamilton was looking quite a bit quicker.

That’s completely rubbish. You can’t take FP times as indicative of qualifying times. And even you must see the absurdity of not taking overall Q2 times. It takes a special kind of bias to take those figures...

I'm showing how Hamilton was consistently quicker than Bottas, Bottas had to do a second run in Q2 because his first run wasn't quick enough whilst you must still believe that Hamilton was close to his limit in Q2 then simply turned the engine up to 11 in Q3 to go 9 tenths quicker.

I don’t have to believe anything. I can just look at the facts which show that bottas was less than a tenth down in Hamilton. Extrapolating anything from that for Q3 is pure projection I’m afraid. Deep down you must know that I’m afraid.

This is why it can be so difficult to debate with you. You take things which are 100% opinion, heavily biased opinion at that, and try to pass them off as fact

No you wasn't biased when you gave the Mercedes engine 100% credit for Hamilton's pole lap, I've shown how Hamilton was consistently quicker than Bottas in every session, how Bottas had to do a second run in Q2 whilst Hamilton obviously cruised through to Q3 but no this is no evidence at all.

I would even venture that the deficit to Hamilton was a contributing factor to Bottas' crash in Q3.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Bottas had to do a second run in Q2 because his first run was not quick enough, also Hamilton wouldn't have been flat out in Q2 unless you still want to believe that the party mode gave Hamilton 9 tenths in Q3.

Anyway:-

FP1 - Hamilton 0.5s
FP2 - Hamilton 0.2s
FP3 - Wet
Q1 - Hamilton 0.8s
Q2 (1st runs) - Hamilton 0.6s

No just wishful thinking on my part that Hamilton was looking quite a bit quicker.

That’s completely rubbish. You can’t take FP times as indicative of qualifying times. And even you must see the absurdity of not taking overall Q2 times. It takes a special kind of bias to take those figures...

I'm showing how Hamilton was consistently quicker than Bottas, Bottas had to do a second run in Q2 because his first run wasn't quick enough whilst you must still believe that Hamilton was close to his limit in Q2 then simply turned the engine up to 11 in Q3 to go 9 tenths quicker.

I don’t have to believe anything. I can just look at the facts which show that bottas was less than a tenth down in Hamilton. Extrapolating anything from that for Q3 is pure projection I’m afraid. Deep down you must know that I’m afraid.

This is why it can be so difficult to debate with you. You take things which are 100% opinion, heavily biased opinion at that, and try to pass them off as fact

No you wasn't biased when you gave the Mercedes engine 100% credit for Hamilton's pole lap, I've shown how Hamilton was consistently quicker than Bottas in every session, how Bottas had to do a second run in Q2 whilst Hamilton obviously cruised through to Q3 but no this is no evidence at all.

I would even venture that the deficit to Hamilton was a contributing factor to Bottas' crash in Q3.
So this whole thing is based on you being upset that I didn't think Hamilton's lap in Australia was as special as you did? Good grief.

The above is complete nonsense. FP times aren't always consistent with qualifying outcomes, as you well know. And having to do two laps could be down to anything. Not every driver gets it right first time: isn't that the point of letting them go out more than once?

Fact is you cannot read anything into the stats you've presented. But somehow you present them as fact, whereas it's simply wishful thinking on your part, as is your theory on Bottas' crash. This is what happens when you view everything through a Hamilton shaped lens, unfortunately. Bottas was matching Hamilton until his accident. That's the only stat that matters. You just can't extrapolate anything else from that


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 3491
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
That’s completely rubbish. You can’t take FP times as indicative of qualifying times. And even you must see the absurdity of not taking overall Q2 times. It takes a special kind of bias to take those figures...

I'm showing how Hamilton was consistently quicker than Bottas, Bottas had to do a second run in Q2 because his first run wasn't quick enough whilst you must still believe that Hamilton was close to his limit in Q2 then simply turned the engine up to 11 in Q3 to go 9 tenths quicker.

I don’t have to believe anything. I can just look at the facts which show that bottas was less than a tenth down in Hamilton. Extrapolating anything from that for Q3 is pure projection I’m afraid. Deep down you must know that I’m afraid.

This is why it can be so difficult to debate with you. You take things which are 100% opinion, heavily biased opinion at that, and try to pass them off as fact

No you wasn't biased when you gave the Mercedes engine 100% credit for Hamilton's pole lap, I've shown how Hamilton was consistently quicker than Bottas in every session, how Bottas had to do a second run in Q2 whilst Hamilton obviously cruised through to Q3 but no this is no evidence at all.

I would even venture that the deficit to Hamilton was a contributing factor to Bottas' crash in Q3.
So this whole thing is based on you being upset that I didn't think Hamilton's lap in Australia was as special as you did? Good grief.

The above is complete nonsense. FP times aren't always consistent with qualifying outcomes, as you well know. And having to do two laps could be down to anything. Not every driver gets it right first time: isn't that the point of letting them go out more than once?

Fact is you cannot read anything into the stats you've presented. But somehow you present them as fact, whereas it's simply wishful thinking on your part, as is your theory on Bottas' crash. This is what happens when you view everything through a Hamilton shaped lens, unfortunately. Bottas was matching Hamilton until his accident. That's the only stat that matters. You just can't extrapolate anything else from that


Out of interest did Hamilton do a 2nd run in Q2?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am
Posts: 1293
Out of interest, when season averages are quoted for qualifying that many of you quote. Where do you get that data from? How are incidences such as Bottas vs Hamilton in Australia treated? Officially Hamilton out qualified Bottas by 0.8. Would they use that?

I know wet sessions are usually discounted from these statistics but not sure how crashes or just Q2 drop outs are handled if the team mate progresses to Q3, do they use both the Q2 times or Q2 vs Q3?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2644
Average qualifying gaps can be skewed by extreme gaps (like Monza 2017) and qualifying sessions where one driver doesn’t set a time (Brazil 2017, Australia 2018). Median qualifying gaps are better than average qualifying gaps for this precise reason. They still give a representative gap between the drivers without having to worry about outliers.

The median qualifying gap between Hamilton and Bottas is 0.100s in Hamilton’s favour.

The median qualifying gap between Ricciardo and Verstappen is 0.041s in Ricciardo’s favour.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7407
Location: Michigan, USA
KingVoid wrote:
The median qualifying gap between Ricciardo and Verstappen is 0.041s in Ricciardo’s favour.

How can that be true? Ricciardo has only out-qualified Max once this season, even if I don't think that's necessarily a fair representation of their respective pace.

EDIT: I was thinking of the mode average instead of the median, but I don't see how it's correct anyway. The median average is the number between the highest and lowest of a given set: here we have a spread from +0.273 (Australia) to -0.083 (Azerbaijan) for Ricciardo. The median average is +0.095 in Max's favor, isn't it?

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2644
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
The median qualifying gap between Ricciardo and Verstappen is 0.041s in Ricciardo’s favour.

How can that be true? Ricciardo has only out-qualified Max once this season, even if I don't think that's necessarily a fair representation of their respective pace.

Bahrain and Monaco are both counted in Ricciardo’s favour.

The qualifying gaps ranked from best to worst (from Ricciardo’s point of view):

Monaco, Bahrain, Baku, Spain, China, Australia

When there are 6 data points, the median exists in the 3.5 th position. In this case, the median exists between Baku and Spain. In Baku Ricciardo was 0.083s ahead of Verstappen, and in Spain Verstappen was only 0.002s ahead of Ricciardo. Therefore the overall qualifying gap is 0.041s in Ricciardo’s favour.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7407
Location: Michigan, USA
KingVoid wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
The median qualifying gap between Ricciardo and Verstappen is 0.041s in Ricciardo’s favour.

How can that be true? Ricciardo has only out-qualified Max once this season, even if I don't think that's necessarily a fair representation of their respective pace.

Bahrain and Monaco are both counted in Ricciardo’s favour.

The qualifying gaps ranked from best to worst (from Ricciardo’s point of view):

Monaco, Bahrain, Baku, Spain, China, Australia

When there are 6 data points, the median exists in the 3.5 th position. In this case, the median exists between Baku and Spain. In Baku Ricciardo was 0.083s ahead of Verstappen, and in Spain Verstappen was only 0.002s ahead of Ricciardo. Therefore the overall qualifying gap is 0.041s in Ricciardo’s favour.

That's all pretty theoretical though, considering that Verstappen was up in Bahrain after Q1 and never set a time in Monaco. I think it would probably be more fair to count them one in each direction if you're going to count them at all - clearly Max messed up in Bahrain, but for determining his qualifying speed he was looking faster when he crashed.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2644
Verstappen messed up in both Monaco and Bahrain, therefore both qualifying sessions go Ricciado’s favour. That’s logical.

If you just look at the four qualifying sessions where they both set a time, then the median speed advantage is 0.077s in Max’s favour.

But if a driver messes up his own qualifying like Max did in Bahrain and Monaco, then I count that in the other drivers favour.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 2513
Without presenting the numbers (not that it's scientific anyway), for the drivers of the top three teams I have the following:

Vettel as the best performer in qualifying ahead of Ricciardo and then Hamilton.
Ricciardo as the best performer in the race ahead of Hamilton and then Vettel.
Ricciardo as the best performer overall (race weekend but really qualifying + race with their case specific weightings) ahead of Hamilton = Vettel (both identical in the ratings so far in average and in number of extremely good (1) and poor (0) performances.

Ferrari with best aggregate performance in qualifying ahead of Mercedes = Red Bull.
Mercedes with best aggregate performance in the race ahead of Ferrari who have a big edge over Red Bull because of yours truly.
Mercedes with the best aggregate race weekend performance, ahead of Ferrari who again have a big edge over Red Bull because of yours truly.

In the case of ties I've gone by alphabetical order.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 2513
Regarding car performance, overall Ferrari have an edge on more tracks but Mercedes and Red Bull have had the biggest edges on the circuits which suited them for race weekends, but TBH I haven't paid a great amount attention to it. RBR are probably one significant PU upgrade away from being genuine title contenders behind Ricciardo but I don't expect it will come, but my impression is they've made a better start than last year overall, and in the second half of 2017 there was something approaching parity with the top 3. That might be reached sooner this season.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:17 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:58 pm
Posts: 1424
Location: London
Feels to me like Merc have been on top of the tyres in two races, Australia and Barcelona where they were significantly faster than the rest. Ferrari are consistently ok on the tyres except at Barcelona where they struggled. RBR have been reasonable everywhere but lack the power to make it count in most qualy sessions. If Merc get on top of the tyres I think they will be hard to beat, but right now I would rather be in the Ferrari.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group