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Is there a clear winner between Hamilton and Vettel as drivers?
Hamilton is clearly better at this point. 82%  82%  [ 65 ]
Vettel is clearly better at this point. 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
It is still not clear who is the better driver at this point. 16%  16%  [ 13 ]
Total votes : 79
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:22 pm 
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First off, I'm trying to ask an objective question here. I really don't intend this thread to bash Vettel, but if the mods decide that they think it's too negative in concept or reality then obviously I defer to their judgment.

With that out of the way: Is there any doubt anymore about Hamilton vs. Vettel? Going into 2017 the fight was billed as the two giants of the era going head-to-head in equal machinery for the first time, a chance for us to finally learn how the two mega-champions of this era compare. In 2017 the cars were close to equal, with Mercedes probably having a slight edge; in 2018 the cars are again close to equal, but the majority would say that Ferrari now has the edge. We've had almost two years to compare the two four-time world champions as they slug it out for the title.

My question is, in all honesty, does anyone still consider there to be doubt about which one is the better driver?

For me, no. Going into these two years I always considered Hamilton to be a little bit faster, but the way he has comprehensively beaten Vettel whenever the fight is close decides it for me. I am now convinced that Hamilton is better than Vettel, and it's not by a small amount.

What does everyone else feel? And in particular for those who believe the question is still up in the air, what is it that leads you to that conclusion? I'm interested in hearing from people who haven't taken away the same impression that I have, namely that Hamilton has conclusively beaten Vettel in equal cars. And please, try to keep it objective, as hard as I know that is for a contentious subject like this...

:thumbup: 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:32 pm 
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👍 Hamilton > Vettel.

Crystal clear to neutral observers and fans.

Fanbois are a different story, but they will never get convinced anyway.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:35 pm 
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I, and the other Mods will be keeping a very, very close eye on this. Keep it objective and keep it within the rules.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:53 pm 
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I have always had the opinion that Hamilton was better and think we are seeing proof of that. I personally think that if Hamilton was driving the Ferrari last year he would have won them the title. Yes he has off weekends but when he is on he's pretty much unbeatable.

Btw I see Alonso as the best driver and not in anyway a fanboy


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:08 pm 
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Excellent thread as always, Exediron...


I tend to be a fencesitter in general, awaiting a huge mass of more reasonably comparable evidence, which is what we've been provided with over the last two seasons given the more direct rivalry between HAM and VET. I think Hamilton has been obviously better over the course of 2017 and 2018 so far, but am still only willing to go as far as saying exactly that rather than saying he is definitively the superior driver. Discord is rampant in recent weeks with statements like "I hate Lewis but he's simply the best, I admit it" and the like - LOL. So Hamilton is definitely leaving an impression on many fans of F1 in 2018, no matter their allegiance. There is still 7 races to go in 2018 though, and just because Hamilton is performing better now doesn't mean it will remain the case for the rest of the year nor for 2019. Vettel was better through the first half of 2017, I'd say, and has been a match on pure race pace consistently throughout both seasons.

So, for me there is still some doubt but I'm settled enough to at least say that *right now* (and for quite a long time now) Hamilton hasn't just edged Vettel, but has been clearly and blatantly the better performer. I'd go as far as to say that Hamilton is the best driver in F1, including Alonso. I have to give the benefit of the doubt to the one who is consistently being clutch and maximising his chances in the heat of a Championship battle.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:45 pm 
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In 2017 I was not yet convinced. IMO Mercedes had the faster and more reliable car overall, so Hamilton beating Vettel should have been expected.

2018 has been very damning for Vettel’s legacy, arguably it has hurt him as much as 2014. He has been horrendous.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:53 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
In 2017 I was not yet convinced. IMO Mercedes had the faster and more reliable car overall, so Hamilton beating Vettel should have been expected.

This year has been very damning for Vettel’s legacy, arguably it has hurt him as much as 2014. He has been horrendous.


Horrendous is a bit harsh, but this year has flagged up a large difference between the two. Vettel seems to suffer a lot more when the chips fall against him, wheras when Hamilton gets through his sulky stage (usually at the start of the year) he seems to find something extra and pushes on. The other difference that has been highlighted fairly recently; I cannot remember the last time Hamilton chucked it off the road and DNF'd all of his own accord. It's probably more recent than I can remember (Monza in a McLaren? Think he did it in Spain near the end of a race once year too?) but certainly not as recently as Vettel has done it.

There isn't much in it, and it's all small mistakes and small margins, but that really is the difference at the very top.

For me, Hamilton is the better of the two right now, and probably has been for the majority of the time they have been racing together, even if we haven't been able to see them really go at it due to the respective dominance of their cars.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:00 pm 
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I think if you'd asked that question after the first few races of the year then you may have had a different answer, Vettel was driving better than Hamilton then IMO. But lately it has to be said that Vettel has appeared to drop the ball, whereas Hamilton is performing very well indeed and it's difficult to see what he could do better. If you want to get hyper-critical then you could say that he could have defended against Vettel better at the beginning of the Spa race, but he hasn't made errors with the same consequences Vettel has and he's not dropped points anywhere through his own driving. He's not only kept himself in the game when it looked like he had a mountain to climb, but he's managed to put himself in the prime seat for the title So on balance this year I'd say that Hamilton has been the better driver overall.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:25 pm 
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I think Lewis has excelled in a few important areas :
- Better performances in wet and changeable conditions
- Fewer unforced errors
- Generally better spatial awareness when In close proximity with other cars . Seb has had a lot of crashes in the last couple of years.

Having said that I would hate to dismiss Seb.
The way F1 ebbs and flows - he could quite easily make a major points gain if Lewis has a DNF tomorrow and the way Ferrari are developing- They could have an even stronger package in 2019 and 2020

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:03 pm 
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Xink wrote:
I think Lewis has excelled in a few important areas :
- Better performances in wet and changeable conditions
- Fewer unforced errors
- Generally better spatial awareness when In close proximity with other cars . Seb has had a lot of crashes in the last couple of years.

Having said that I would hate to dismiss Seb.
The way F1 ebbs and flows - he could quite easily make a major points gain if Lewis has a DNF tomorrow and the way Ferrari are developing- They could have an even stronger package in 2019 and 2020


Agree on the analysis of Lewis superiority in 2018.
I would also hate to dismiss Sebastian. He is pretty much the only driver able to take the fight to Lewis on a consistent basis.

Am hoping we see some good on track Lewis-Sebastian battles for the rest of the year.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:13 pm 
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Not in recent races but I do think there have been periods that Vettel has been consistently the better driver. Even if Hamilton more often than not has had the edge I don't think there is a clear winner.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:17 pm 
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Its never conclusive until you see a direct head to head or a lot of team mates to compare. But it has certainly moved a lot toward Hamilton since the end of 2013 when consensus probably had Vettel slightly ahead. Especially with Hamiltons 2011 still in close memory.

I think by the end of there careers we will have a very good idea, especially how Vettel compares against Leclerc and maybe see Hamilton against one more driver too.

Vettel isn't as bad as is being made out since Germany, he is still Ferrari best hope (Alonso aside) to break the Hamilton-Mercedes team and its still possible this year.

One thing with Vettel is he is inconsistent over seasons and it alternates (although that is probably by luck) every other year.
2009 he thrashed Webber.
2010 for a decent chunk of the year Webber was better / his equal.
2011 he thrashes Webber.
2012 for the first half of the year Webber was better at quite a few races and actually ahead of him midway through the WDC.
2013 he thrashes Webber.
2014 bad year against Ricciardo.
2015 thrashes Kimi very heavily
2016 Kimi matches him in qualifying and much closer overall
2017 thrashes Kimi again
2018 the gap is much reduced and if Kimi wasn't making errors in qualifying it would be quite a close battle.

I don't believe in these types of patterns, its just the way its worked out. But he seems to be better if the car really suits him which just happens to be all the odd years.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:40 pm 
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It's a little sad that a thread discussing which of the 4x WDCs is better could be contentious.

My opinion of Vettel has gone down somewhat in the last couple of years. At Toro Rosso he was one of the best young drivers I can recall and then he was supreme when he graduated to the senior Red Bull team and won his four championships. However it was clear that he had the fastest car for that period and I wondered how he'd get on in the second or third best car, as that is where the truly brilliant drivers show their class. I wrote 2014 off as an anomaly, and after some impressive showings in his first couple of years at Ferrari I'd made up my mind that Vettel really was one of the very best. But for the past two years when he's been in a car that can challenge for the title but is not a step ahead of the others he's been disappointing. We still see a lot of the speed that was evident earlier in his career but there have been too many mistakes and too many instances of him not getting the most out of the car. In my opinion, although the form did fluctuate from race to race, the Mercedes and Ferrari cars were roughly equal over the course of 2017 and it came down to which driver was better. This season the Ferrari has been the better car more often than not and still Hamilton is winning, and that reflects poorly on both Ferrari drivers.

Hamilton on the other hand I've always found to be more impressive. I don't think he ever had the best car at his disposal prior to the hybrid era yet still won races every year and challenged for the title on multiple occasions, winning one of them. Cruising to victories in a vastly superior Mercedes did little to enhance my opinion of him but in my mind his reputation was already established, much as I've always seen Michael Schumacher's best form as being in the 1990s, not in the 2000s when he was winning all the titles. Vettel's loss of face over the past two years has been Hamilton's gain, and since the cars have been roughly equal I don't think there can be much debate about which of the two drivers has looked more impressive. So yes, I agree with the premise of the thread: before 2016 I was largely undecided over which driver was better but probably would have given Hamilton the slight nod based on his McLaren form, but now I have seen enough to be much more confident in ranking Hamilton as the better driver.

Having said all that, I still think Alonso has always had the edge over both of them.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:58 am 
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To me, Hamilton has got better with age.

I am still confused why Kimi has not won a grand prix since his return to F1 :uhoh: ... It appears that Vettel does not like pressure compared to Hamilton, who thrives on it. :)

Also, I've noticed that Hamilton's results get better in the 2nd half of the season, compared to the first half. Almost every year.

Apart from Button, Hamilton is clearly outperformed his team mate including Alonso.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:37 am 
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Noni wrote:
To me, Hamilton has got better with age.

I am still confused why Kimi has not won a grand prix since his return to F1 :uhoh: ... It appears that Vettel does not like pressure compared to Hamilton, who thrives on it. :)

Also, I've noticed that Hamilton's results get better in the 2nd half of the season, compared to the first half. Almost every year.

Apart from Button, Hamilton is clearly outperformed his team mate including Alonso.

Kimi won in Abu Dhabi in 2012 and Australia 2013 with Lotus, you must have missed those races! ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:34 am 
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What you are dealing with is two child prodigy’s competing head-to-head. Arguably two of the best drivers in Formula One history. I think it’s extremely close between them. Hamilton has become a better driver after his bruising roller coaster with Nico Rosberg. Nico brought out the best in Lewis and its paying dividends now. Likewise Seb’s getting better too - like today where he was trying to solve for how the Mercs got the upper hand after the first run in Q3. I think Seb is becoming a better driver after his battle with Lewis. I’m particularly impressed by his comeback races where he stares down adversity and comes back through the field (Monza, Mexico last year).


It’s great to see these guys go at it head to head, especially the past two races at Spa (2017 / 18). At this point they don’t have anything left to prove. Anything they do from this point on is just bonus. We as fans should just enjoy it while it lasts.

Trying to compares who’s better kind of misses the point to me.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:40 am 
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shay550 wrote:
What you are dealing with is two child prodigy’s competing head-to-head. Arguably two of the best drivers in Formula One history. I think it’s extremely close between them. Hamilton has become a better driver after his bruising roller coaster with Nico Rosberg. Nico brought out the best in Lewis and its paying dividends now. Likewise Seb’s getting better too - like today where he was trying to solve for how the Mercs got the upper hand after the first run in Q3. I think Seb is becoming a better driver after his battle with Lewis. I’m particularly impressed by his comeback races where he stares down adversity and comes back through the field (Monza, Mexico last year).


It’s great to see these guys go at it head to head, especially the past two races at Spa (2017 / 18). At this point they don’t have anything left to prove. Anything they do from this point on is just bonus. We as fans should just enjoy it while it lasts.

Trying to compares who’s better kind of misses the point to me.


You can't be impressed by comeback drives in a Mercedes or Ferrari, drivers don't defend and it's easy pickings. In Monza Vettel got lucky with the SC which evaporated all the time he lost.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:16 am 
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This season there is no question. Who has been the better driver over their career could still be debated IMO.

It's close enough that if Hamilton makes 3 or 4 mistakes in the last 7 races and Vettel is immaculate the pendulum of opinion will swing.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:01 am 
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Before 2014 i was very willing to pay vettel his dues and put him Alonso Alonso and Hamilton, however since 2014 he has just been 'good' and hasn't achieved or showed us anything special. It has made me look back at his career and see that his only big accomplishments have come in a dominant car, with basically no competition. 2014 onwards has seen vettels stock drop. This year, and to a lesser extent last year, vettel had a perfect opportunity to perform in equal'ish' machinery and he has completely failed to impress. For me leclerc has the chance to put the final nail in vettel's coffin.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:20 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
It's close enough that if Hamilton makes 3 or 4 mistakes in the last 7 races and Vettel is immaculate the pendulum of opinion will swing.

Yes, but part of the reason we're having this discussion is that those things are almost certainly not going to happen. Hamilton doesn't make 3-4 mistakes in a season anymore, let alone in 6 races, and Vettel hasn't been immaculate for 6 races since... the end of 2013?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:24 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
It's close enough that if Hamilton makes 3 or 4 mistakes in the last 7 races and Vettel is immaculate the pendulum of opinion will swing.

Yes, but part of the reason we're having this discussion is that those things are almost certainly not going to happen. Hamilton doesn't make 3-4 mistakes in a season anymore, let alone in 6 races, and Vettel hasn't been immaculate for 6 races since... the end of 2013?


True. It's not just this season but the last three where he has really made too many errors for a top driver.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:36 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
True. It's not just this season but the last three where he has really made too many errors for a top driver.

Since the start of 2016 something has gone wrong in his head. From 2011-2015 he barely made any mistakes, comparable to Hamilton today. In 2014 he was dead slow, but he still made almost no mistakes. However, since the start of 2016 he has been horrible. He's been making 3-4 big mistakes per season.

He needs a sport psychologist to sort him out.


Last edited by KingVoid on Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:41 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Before 2014 i was very willing to pay vettel his dues and put him Alonso Alonso and Hamilton, however since 2014 he has just been 'good' and hasn't achieved or showed us anything special.

Vettel was the best driver in 2015.

Yes, better than Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:57 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Before 2014 i was very willing to pay vettel his dues and put him Alonso Alonso and Hamilton, however since 2014 he has just been 'good' and hasn't achieved or showed us anything special.

Vettel was the best driver in 2015.

Yes, better than Hamilton.


Why's that then? Vettel performed well but no better than Verstappen. Not well enough to undo the damage of 2014. He didn't perform any feats that verstappen/Riccardo for example could not have


Last edited by FormulaFun on Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:02 am 
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Posting this at the time of Hamilton's momentum does not give justice to the whole picture of the matter. If you posted this in the time of Vettel's momentum, some 4 months ago, you would get different results. Let's wait till the end of the year with conclusions.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:12 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Before 2014 i was very willing to pay vettel his dues and put him Alonso Alonso and Hamilton, however since 2014 he has just been 'good' and hasn't achieved or showed us anything special.

Vettel was the best driver in 2015.

Yes, better than Hamilton.


It's impossible to know how anyone apart from Rosberg compares to Hamilton in 2014-16.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:21 am 
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In 2015, there were 19 races.

Mercedes had the best car in 16 of them, and Hamilton and Rosberg split the cake 10-6.

Ferrari had the best car in 1 of them (Singapore), which Vettel won convincingly.

There were two races where the cars were fairly equal (Malaysia and Hungary). In both those races, Vettel outraced Hamilton and won despite starting behind.

On that basis Vettel was better than Hamilton. Also, when Hamilton won the WDC in Austin, Vettel was still ahead of Rosberg in the championship, which was incredible considering how dominant Mercedes was.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:23 am 
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Hamilton has been preforming better than Vettel this season. Too many unforced errors from Vettel's side, already in the previous season that continued into this one. Vettel got the car with which to be able to win the championship, but with this level of under-performing he won't. Just that one cardinal mistake in Germany when he was the only driver to take himself out by sliding into the wall under the wet condition cost him 32 WDC points. The only way to recover from that is to deliver an outstanding performance the rest of the season, which he does not. Rather, he keeps more of that same, such as losing the points in Monza.

The "paradigm" that Vettel keeps his cool and delivers when under the pressure, is proving itself to be flawed. That seems to be Hamilton's quality rather.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:34 am 
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What I find interesting is that out of 41 responders the number of forum contributors that think Vettel is better is zero.

So are the fervently passionate Ferrari/Vettel fans simply not participating or do they agree that Hamilton is the better driver? If the latter then this has to be an incredibly objective forum!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:43 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
In 2015, there were 19 races.

Mercedes had the best car in 16 of them, and Hamilton and Rosberg split the cake 10-6.

Ferrari had the best car in 1 of them (Singapore), which Vettel won convincingly.

There were two races where the cars were fairly equal (Malaysia and Hungary). In both those races, Vettel outraced Hamilton and won despite starting behind.

On that basis Vettel was better than Hamilton. Also, when Hamilton won the WDC in Austin, Vettel was still ahead of Rosberg in the championship, which was incredible considering how dominant Mercedes was.


Lol Hamilton was not in a race with Vettel, Hamilton's focus was on Rosberg. It makes no sense to compare on some very cherry picked races as justification for Vettel being an elite driver in the last 4 years. Hamilton's job was to beat Rosberg which he did and tailed off towards the end of the season.. After he won the WDC already with 3 races to spare. Not really worth a debate.

You're missing the point totally, you've decided to focus on 3 races of 1 year of the 4 year window i have outlined for Vettel being lackluster. He won races in 2015, despite not having the best car. As i said he is good, but this something that both Riccardo and Verstappen have both also done. Which is the level I put Vettel at. I have no qualms about giving drivers their credit when deserved, but in my eyes he is not at that level. This is not down to some strange bias.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:43 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
What I find interesting is that out of 41 responders the number of forum contributors that think Vettel is better is zero.

So are the fervently passionate Ferrari/Vettel fans simply not participating or do they agree that Hamilton is the better driver? If the latter then this has to be an incredibly objective forum!

I voted option 3. ;)

They were still close if you look at their career as a whole. There is still time for opinions to change and views to shift.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:47 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

It's close enough that if Hamilton makes 3 or 4 mistakes in the last 7 races and Vettel is immaculate the pendulum of opinion will swing.


Yeah I agree, opinion is fickle and has a short memory. Hamilton is flying high right now and Vettel is underperforming. A couple of good races from Vettel with some errors from Hamilton and suddnely things wont be quite so cut and dried as they appear right now.


Last edited by Lojik on Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:47 am 
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Well, I've often though Vettel would have the ability to be better than hamilton if he just made less mistakes. The difference between then in Vettel's favour is that during the races, I virtually never see Vettel lacking pace like Hamilton seems to several times a season. But Vettel just makes too many simple mistakes for me to concider him better now. Even though Hamilton is genrally quicker, If Vettel didn't make his mistakes, I think I would judge them as basically even. Purely because I very rarely see Vettel lack pace in the same way that Hamilton sometimes does. But yes, Vettel has made a lot of mistakes over the last 2 years and that is what is making it pretty obvious that Hamilton is better. If they are both on top form, which often is the case, there is not a big difference.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:48 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
You're missing the point totally, you've decided to focus on 3 races of 1 year of the 4 year window i have outlined for Vettel being lackluster. He won races in 2015, despite not having the best car. As i said he is good, but this something that both Riccardo and Verstappen have both also done. Which is the level I put Vettel at. I have no qualms about giving drivers their credit when deserved, but in my eyes he is not at that level. This is not down to some strange bias.

His overall performance in 2015 was very good, not just those three races. He was voted the best driver of the season by racefans.net. A British website with primarily British users voted Vettel as the best driver of 2015.

https://www.racefans.net/2015/12/18/201 ... an-vettel/

Vettel was also voted the best driver of the first half of 2017.

https://www.racefans.net/2017/08/18/201 ... three-4-1/

Vettel has been hit and miss at Ferrari. Hamilton was also quite hit and miss from 2009 to 2013.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:56 am 
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I think they are broadly similar in terms of peak ability but Hamilton has shown himself more likely to achieve his peak and get the job done.

Looking back over their careers in terms of who performed better in each season I make it 6-4 in favour of Hamilton since 2009 including this year and I think that's a fairly accurate reflection.

It's not out of reach for Vettel but he has shown pretty consistently across his career that he can't maintain his peak level of performance as well as Hamilton IMO so at this point, while I think it's too early to definitively call it, I'd be surprised if I didn't end up rating Hamilton ahead when they both retire.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:58 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Vettel has been hit and miss at Ferrari. Hamilton was also quite hit and miss from 2009 to 2013.


2009 Hamilton was the highest points scorer in second part of the season after having an absolute dog of a car in first half.
2010 Hamilton was a failed wheel rim on the penultinmate lap of the Spanish GP away from winning the WDC
2011 Yeah he was poor and got legitimately beaten by Button
2012 Arguably one of his best years perfomance wise, let down massively by team
2013 Did ok, new to team


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:00 am 
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i think hamilton is better all round.

in the dry i would say they are both pretty evenly matched actually. hamilton would probably win 12-8 over a season.

in the wet i would put hamilton ahead but not by a huge amount. maybe a couple of tenths.

the main dif is between the ears. hamilton had a spell early this decade where he was making contact a lot of the time eg massa maldonado button but he has pretty much erradicated these errors and is a very safe pair of hands now (although rosberg did unearth a little of the old hamilton). vettel also showed similar errors eg webber button but has carried on this trend and it is still a problem now. leading from the front he doesnt have to worry about it and thats when he is at his best, but put him down the grid and he has always been suspect.

ps there is a lot of this my driver is better then yours nonsense on this site and it is getting worse. just because you think you support the best driver means jack s**". doesnt mean you know more about that driver then a non fan. doesnt make your comments about them any more valid. probably actually the opposite.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:12 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
You're missing the point totally, you've decided to focus on 3 races of 1 year of the 4 year window i have outlined for Vettel being lackluster. He won races in 2015, despite not having the best car. As i said he is good, but this something that both Riccardo and Verstappen have both also done. Which is the level I put Vettel at. I have no qualms about giving drivers their credit when deserved, but in my eyes he is not at that level. This is not down to some strange bias.

His overall performance in 2015 was very good, not just those three races. He was voted the best driver of the season by racefans.net. A British website with primarily British users voted Vettel as the best driver of 2015.

https://www.racefans.net/2015/12/18/201 ... an-vettel/

Vettel was also voted the best driver of the first half of 2017.

https://www.racefans.net/2017/08/18/201 ... three-4-1/

Vettel has been hit and miss at Ferrari. Hamilton was also quite hit and miss from 2009 to 2013.


Just typed this reply out and got an error when I posted, so will be more brief

2015 I agreed vettel performed well, but I maintain not incredible, winning a few races when you have no championship to fight for is not the same as winning a close title fight, the pressure and intensity, knowing one mistake is very costly, this is the kind of thing vettel is proving he can't put up with. And sky puts Vettel alongside Verstappen for 2015 ratings
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... 5-averages

Next, vettel undid any positives in 2017 with an incredibly poor 2nd half and ended the season below Verstappen on that same website you quote, supporting my claim he is on par with Verstappen and Riccardo

https://www.racefans.net/2017/12/31/the ... on-review/

Another user answered your comments about Hamilton being hit and miss, I don't think that's very accurate, although 2011 his race craft was indeed very poor.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:30 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
In 2015, there were 19 races.

Mercedes had the best car in 16 of them, and Hamilton and Rosberg split the cake 10-6.

Ferrari had the best car in 1 of them (Singapore), which Vettel won convincingly.

There were two races where the cars were fairly equal (Malaysia and Hungary). In both those races, Vettel outraced Hamilton and won despite starting behind.

On that basis Vettel was better than Hamilton. Also, when Hamilton won the WDC in Austin, Vettel was still ahead of Rosberg in the championship, which was incredible considering how dominant Mercedes was.

At the end of the first lap in Hungary, Vettel led and Hamilton was 8th after a bad start. Vettel did a good job that season and that race but Alonso in a Honda Mclaren also beat Hamilton that day.

Malaysia was also won because Mercedes pitted both cars into traffic after a SC on lap 3.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:31 am 
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I have visited this thread once.

I don't think I need to again!

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