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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:46 pm 
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breathemyexhaust wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Well Perez is better than Bottas and Ocon is slightly better than Perez in just his second season and will surely improve further. It's not hard to justify it. Even just saying Bottas has topped out whilst Ocon has the potential to get better is reason enough.

It's an interesting and bold call. There's no doubt in my mind that Bottas is considerably faster than Perez over a lap. The qualifying record for Perez with Button in 2013 was something like 10-9 in his favor. Contrast this with Hamilton and Alonso pretty much obliterating Button in Q. Basically, if Perez was in a Mercedes or a Ferrari this year, he would be having a lot of third row starts with one Red Bull frequently being ahead of him. Not the recipe for doing well at the front of the grid. To say something for him though, I think he would have attempted a move at the end of the Bahrain GP this year, and he might have held on to second place in races like Hungary because of his gifts at managing rubber over long stints. I'm of the persuasion that the midfield as a setting actually brings Perez's advantages into greater relief (his opportunism, ability to make alternative strategies work, bullishness around other cars when jockeying for position, etc.) and that the front of the field would highlight his incurable deficits (such as in speed).

I have absolutely no doubt that Hamilton is faster than Perez. But that's not what we're discussing here, is it?

Let's go with Perez basically equal to Button for the sake of this analysis (even though it was his first year at Macca, and he looked stronger towards the end of it). Button and Hamilton are a pretty known quantity: 14-44 in qualifying over three years. Turned into a percentage, that's 24% for Button vs. Hamilton. Now, let's look at Bottas - is he really closer?

A little bit. Bottas vs Hamilton to date is 11-24, for a percentage of 31%. But what about races?

In a two-car finish, Hamilton beat Button 24-13 over three years, giving Button a percentage of 35%. Bottas is currently on 10-24 combined, for a total of 29% - unlike Button, he actually beats Hamilton in the races more rarely than he outqualifies him.

NOTE: Some factors should be considered. Hamilton's car is far more reliable now than it was when he partnered Button, and he makes fewer driver errors. That has a way of skewing the stats. As well, this year Bottas certainly should have a better head-to-head record than 13-3 - not only should Russia be flipped, but in the first seven or so races Bottas looked every bit a match for Hamilton and didn't have the luck to go with it. Another factor in the other direction, however, is that Hamilton is known to lose form after he clinches a title - Button never had any races against Hamilton after he had clinched a title, whereas Bottas has two victories in that period.

So in the end result, Bottas does look a little quicker in qualifying than Perez/Button. But he's not any more likely to finish ahead.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:50 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Ocon, for me, is a lot like Nico Hulkenberg. He's certainly quick but he lacks that special something in the races to really put him on the top shelf. If we were to list all of the drivers in F1 from best to worst, Ocon would be somewhere in the middle. He definitely belongs out there but he isn't outstanding among his peers IMO.


Really? Aside from the big 5 who would you rate above Ocon? If he was on the grid he'd start the season as the 5th best driver IMO.

He's already better than Hulkenberg who is fast but very inconsistent in races.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:06 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
breathemyexhaust wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Well Perez is better than Bottas and Ocon is slightly better than Perez in just his second season and will surely improve further. It's not hard to justify it. Even just saying Bottas has topped out whilst Ocon has the potential to get better is reason enough.

It's an interesting and bold call. There's no doubt in my mind that Bottas is considerably faster than Perez over a lap. The qualifying record for Perez with Button in 2013 was something like 10-9 in his favor. Contrast this with Hamilton and Alonso pretty much obliterating Button in Q. Basically, if Perez was in a Mercedes or a Ferrari this year, he would be having a lot of third row starts with one Red Bull frequently being ahead of him. Not the recipe for doing well at the front of the grid. To say something for him though, I think he would have attempted a move at the end of the Bahrain GP this year, and he might have held on to second place in races like Hungary because of his gifts at managing rubber over long stints. I'm of the persuasion that the midfield as a setting actually brings Perez's advantages into greater relief (his opportunism, ability to make alternative strategies work, bullishness around other cars when jockeying for position, etc.) and that the front of the field would highlight his incurable deficits (such as in speed).

I have absolutely no doubt that Hamilton is faster than Perez. But that's not what we're discussing here, is it?

Let's go with Perez basically equal to Button for the sake of this analysis (even though it was his first year at Macca, and he looked stronger towards the end of it). Button and Hamilton are a pretty known quantity: 14-44 in qualifying over three years. Turned into a percentage, that's 24% for Button vs. Hamilton. Now, let's look at Bottas - is he really closer?

A little bit. Bottas vs Hamilton to date is 11-24, for a percentage of 31%. But what about races?

In a two-car finish, Hamilton beat Button 24-13 over three years, giving Button a percentage of 35%. Bottas is currently on 10-24 combined, for a total of 29% - unlike Button, he actually beats Hamilton in the races more rarely than he outqualifies him.

NOTE: Some factors should be considered. Hamilton's car is far more reliable now than it was when he partnered Button, and he makes fewer driver errors. That has a way of skewing the stats. As well, this year Bottas certainly should have a better head-to-head record than 13-3 - not only should Russia be flipped, but in the first seven or so races Bottas looked every bit a match for Hamilton and didn't have the luck to go with it. Another factor in the other direction, however, is that Hamilton is known to lose form after he clinches a title - Button never had any races against Hamilton after he had clinched a title, whereas Bottas has two victories in that period.

So in the end result, Bottas does look a little quicker in qualifying than Perez/Button. But he's not any more likely to finish ahead.


Keep up the good work if you dare. :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:07 pm 
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Very excited to be having both Lando Norris and George Russell on the F1 grid next year. What's the thinking on who will partner George?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:34 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Ocon, for me, is a lot like Nico Hulkenberg. He's certainly quick but he lacks that special something in the races to really put him on the top shelf. If we were to list all of the drivers in F1 from best to worst, Ocon would be somewhere in the middle. He definitely belongs out there but he isn't outstanding among his peers IMO.


Really? Aside from the big 5 who would you rate above Ocon? If he was on the grid he'd start the season as the 5th best driver IMO.

He's already better than Hulkenberg who is fast but very inconsistent in races.

Big 5 becomes big 4 with Alonso leaving next year. I'd rather have Leclerc for certain and then there are about 5-6 drivers who I put right there with Ocon. Guys like Gasly, Raikkonen, Bottas, Hulkenberg, Perez and Sainz are all at a level where I would not be sure about who would win head-to-head with Ocon. Maybe "in the middle" is selling him slightly short. He's top 10 but he's not top 5.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:36 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
breathemyexhaust wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Well Perez is better than Bottas and Ocon is slightly better than Perez in just his second season and will surely improve further. It's not hard to justify it. Even just saying Bottas has topped out whilst Ocon has the potential to get better is reason enough.

It's an interesting and bold call. There's no doubt in my mind that Bottas is considerably faster than Perez over a lap. The qualifying record for Perez with Button in 2013 was something like 10-9 in his favor. Contrast this with Hamilton and Alonso pretty much obliterating Button in Q. Basically, if Perez was in a Mercedes or a Ferrari this year, he would be having a lot of third row starts with one Red Bull frequently being ahead of him. Not the recipe for doing well at the front of the grid. To say something for him though, I think he would have attempted a move at the end of the Bahrain GP this year, and he might have held on to second place in races like Hungary because of his gifts at managing rubber over long stints. I'm of the persuasion that the midfield as a setting actually brings Perez's advantages into greater relief (his opportunism, ability to make alternative strategies work, bullishness around other cars when jockeying for position, etc.) and that the front of the field would highlight his incurable deficits (such as in speed).

I have absolutely no doubt that Hamilton is faster than Perez. But that's not what we're discussing here, is it?

Let's go with Perez basically equal to Button for the sake of this analysis (even though it was his first year at Macca, and he looked stronger towards the end of it). Button and Hamilton are a pretty known quantity: 14-44 in qualifying over three years. Turned into a percentage, that's 24% for Button vs. Hamilton. Now, let's look at Bottas - is he really closer?

A little bit. Bottas vs Hamilton to date is 11-24, for a percentage of 31%. But what about races?

In a two-car finish, Hamilton beat Button 24-13 over three years, giving Button a percentage of 35%. Bottas is currently on 10-24 combined, for a total of 29% - unlike Button, he actually beats Hamilton in the races more rarely than he outqualifies him.

NOTE: Some factors should be considered. Hamilton's car is far more reliable now than it was when he partnered Button, and he makes fewer driver errors. That has a way of skewing the stats. As well, this year Bottas certainly should have a better head-to-head record than 13-3 - not only should Russia be flipped, but in the first seven or so races Bottas looked every bit a match for Hamilton and didn't have the luck to go with it. Another factor in the other direction, however, is that Hamilton is known to lose form after he clinches a title - Button never had any races against Hamilton after he had clinched a title, whereas Bottas has two victories in that period.

So in the end result, Bottas does look a little quicker in qualifying than Perez/Button. But he's not any more likely to finish ahead.

Very informative. I suppose the question is; does Ocon's age and/or potential make him more attractive than Bottas? His performance certainly doesn't distinguish him.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:59 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Very informative. I suppose the question is; does Ocon's age and/or potential make him more attractive than Bottas? His performance certainly doesn't distinguish him.

That would be the question, indeed. Ocon is at a point in his career where he may still see significant improvement, whereas Bottas almost certainly is not.

There is one main thing, however, that I feel Ocon has over Bottas: that X-factor called 'Killer Instinct'. Bottas is - and has been for years - almost notorious for not going for bold moves either in terms of attack of defense. When he breaks outside that mold he tends to make mistakes, such as Hungary this year. He's just not an aggressive driver, and at times his passiveness is actually a hindrance. Ocon does not have this problem, although he may be a touch too aggressive at times. However, I do hold the majority of Force India contact as being Perez' fault.

Ultimately, I think Ocon is a victim of Perez' artificially low rating. Nobody really seems to rate Perez as top level, meaning that the unrealistic expectation of dominating him is being viewed as the bar of being truly impressive. If Ocon could dominate Perez he would certainly be a tier one driver, but he can still be very good without doing so.

Personally, I would rate Ocon below Leclerc on the scale of potential, but probably above any of the other young drivers. Gasly is hard to place, but he's probably somewhere close to Ocon. Russel, once he joins the grid, might be even better.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:47 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Ocon, for me, is a lot like Nico Hulkenberg. He's certainly quick but he lacks that special something in the races to really put him on the top shelf. If we were to list all of the drivers in F1 from best to worst, Ocon would be somewhere in the middle. He definitely belongs out there but he isn't outstanding among his peers IMO.


Really? Aside from the big 5 who would you rate above Ocon? If he was on the grid he'd start the season as the 5th best driver IMO.

He's already better than Hulkenberg who is fast but very inconsistent in races.

Big 5 becomes big 4 with Alonso leaving next year. I'd rather have Leclerc for certain and then there are about 5-6 drivers who I put right there with Ocon. Guys like Gasly, Raikkonen, Bottas, Hulkenberg, Perez and Sainz are all at a level where I would not be sure about who would win head-to-head with Ocon. Maybe "in the middle" is selling him slightly short. He's top 10 but he's not top 5.


I don't have a huge amount of argument except for I think Hulk gets well overrated. He could be top 5 if he's the best of that bunch which IMO he is. Leclerc is pretty unproven. He definately could be better.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:23 am 
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Invade wrote:
Very excited to be having both Lando Norris and George Russell on the F1 grid next year. What's the thinking on who will partner George?


Ocon "in the mix" apparently. If they do, it would read to me like an indication that Williams are acknowledging that they need decent drivers in the car to a) get a real view of how good/bad the car actually is 2) maximise whatever points scoring opportunities there are, 3) develop the car 4) be a more serious proposition for sponsors.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:17 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Invade wrote:
Very excited to be having both Lando Norris and George Russell on the F1 grid next year. What's the thinking on who will partner George?


Ocon "in the mix" apparently. If they do, it would read to me like an indication that Williams are acknowledging that they need decent drivers in the car to a) get a real view of how good/bad the car actually is 2) maximise whatever points scoring opportunities there are, 3) develop the car 4) be a more serious proposition for sponsors.


For Claire, it's a decision she has to make between Sirotkin, Kubica or Ocon!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:41 am 
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Someone who hasn't raced a F1 car competitively in seven years, someone who wasn't all that impressive while being partnered with Stroll and someone who could be a future world champion...

That's going to be a tough one for Williams... :-|


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:41 am 
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Vandoorne switches to Formula E.

It's a shame not to see him on the grid next year IMO, I would have liked to see him go up against Kvyat at Toro Rosso, I think his GP2 dominance shows that he had clear potential.

I don't think he could be in a more difficult place on the grid in terms of standing out and not looking below-F1 standard. Going up against Alonso in a dog of a car is a pretty brutal situation.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Vandoorne switches to Formula E.

It's a shame not to see him on the grid next year IMO, I would have liked to see him go up against Kvyat at Toro Rosso, I think his GP2 dominance shows that he had clear potential.

I don't think he could be in a more difficult place on the grid in terms of standing out and not looking below-F1 standard. Going up against Alonso in a dog of a car is a pretty brutal situation.

The margin of defeat flagged Vandoorne up as not being a potential WDC, if he stayed he would have just been making up the numbers.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Vandoorne switches to Formula E.

It's a shame not to see him on the grid next year IMO, I would have liked to see him go up against Kvyat at Toro Rosso, I think his GP2 dominance shows that he had clear potential.

I don't think he could be in a more difficult place on the grid in terms of standing out and not looking below-F1 standard. Going up against Alonso in a dog of a car is a pretty brutal situation.

The margin of defeat flagged Vandoorne up as not being a potential WDC, if he stayed he would have just been making up the numbers.

I think he could have been a decent midfield level driver. I could see him potentially being Kimi/Rosberg/Webber level and that's good enough to win a WDC if car/luck goes your way.

I agree he would have never have been a top driver though.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:54 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Vandoorne switches to Formula E.

It's a shame not to see him on the grid next year IMO, I would have liked to see him go up against Kvyat at Toro Rosso, I think his GP2 dominance shows that he had clear potential.

I don't think he could be in a more difficult place on the grid in terms of standing out and not looking below-F1 standard. Going up against Alonso in a dog of a car is a pretty brutal situation.

The margin of defeat flagged Vandoorne up as not being a potential WDC, if he stayed he would have just been making up the numbers.

I think he could have been a decent midfield level driver. I could see him potentially being Kimi/Rosberg/Webber level and that's good enough to win a WDC if car/luck goes your way.

I agree he would have never have been a top driver though.

You see Alonso beating Rosberg in similar fashion?

I'm just wondering how an average midfield runner beats the incumbent star driver in a top team, Kimi himself doesn't come close to beating Vettel whilst Rosberg was better than being an average midfield runner.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:32 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Vandoorne switches to Formula E.

It's a shame not to see him on the grid next year IMO, I would have liked to see him go up against Kvyat at Toro Rosso, I think his GP2 dominance shows that he had clear potential.

I don't think he could be in a more difficult place on the grid in terms of standing out and not looking below-F1 standard. Going up against Alonso in a dog of a car is a pretty brutal situation.

The margin of defeat flagged Vandoorne up as not being a potential WDC, if he stayed he would have just been making up the numbers.

I think he could have been a decent midfield level driver. I could see him potentially being Kimi/Rosberg/Webber level and that's good enough to win a WDC if car/luck goes your way.

I agree he would have never have been a top driver though.

You see Alonso beating Rosberg in similar fashion?

I'm just wondering how an average midfield runner beats the incumbent star driver in a top team, Kimi himself doesn't come close to beating Vettel whilst Rosberg was better than being an average midfield runner.


I could see Alonso beating rookie Rosberg in a difficult car in similar fashion. Definately.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:46 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Vandoorne switches to Formula E.

It's a shame not to see him on the grid next year IMO, I would have liked to see him go up against Kvyat at Toro Rosso, I think his GP2 dominance shows that he had clear potential.

I don't think he could be in a more difficult place on the grid in terms of standing out and not looking below-F1 standard. Going up against Alonso in a dog of a car is a pretty brutal situation.

The margin of defeat flagged Vandoorne up as not being a potential WDC, if he stayed he would have just been making up the numbers.

I think he could have been a decent midfield level driver. I could see him potentially being Kimi/Rosberg/Webber level and that's good enough to win a WDC if car/luck goes your way.

I agree he would have never have been a top driver though.

You see Alonso beating Rosberg in similar fashion?

I'm just wondering how an average midfield runner beats the incumbent star driver in a top team, Kimi himself doesn't come close to beating Vettel whilst Rosberg was better than being an average midfield runner.


I could see Alonso beating rookie Rosberg in a difficult car in similar fashion. Definately.

Vandoorne's in his second season.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:24 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Vandoorne switches to Formula E.

It's a shame not to see him on the grid next year IMO, I would have liked to see him go up against Kvyat at Toro Rosso, I think his GP2 dominance shows that he had clear potential.

I don't think he could be in a more difficult place on the grid in terms of standing out and not looking below-F1 standard. Going up against Alonso in a dog of a car is a pretty brutal situation.

The margin of defeat flagged Vandoorne up as not being a potential WDC, if he stayed he would have just been making up the numbers.

I think he could have been a decent midfield level driver. I could see him potentially being Kimi/Rosberg/Webber level and that's good enough to win a WDC if car/luck goes your way.

I agree he would have never have been a top driver though.

You see Alonso beating Rosberg in similar fashion?

I'm just wondering how an average midfield runner beats the incumbent star driver in a top team, Kimi himself doesn't come close to beating Vettel whilst Rosberg was better than being an average midfield runner.

Well I did say I could see him becoming that level potentially, not that he is that level now, but yeah I could definitely imagine Alonso destroying Rosberg if he was sat in the McLaren this year, I'd be surprised if he didn't tbh.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:15 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Vandoorne's in his second season.


Fine, if you want to be pedantic I could easily see Rosberg in his first or second season in a difficult car being just as outclassed by Alonso as Vandoorne.

Fact is you can't fill a grid with champions or potential champions.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
I think he could have been a decent midfield level driver. I could see him potentially being Kimi/Rosberg/Webber level and that's good enough to win a WDC if car/luck goes your way.

I agree he would have never have been a top driver though.

You see Alonso beating Rosberg in similar fashion?

I saw him beat Kimi in similar fashion. I can easily imagine him beating Webber in similar fashion.

Rosberg? Not the 17-0 in qualifying, no. But in the lower midfield, in a tricky car to drive, I think he'd have beat Rosberg by a pretty healthy margin. So would Lewis.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:52 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Invade wrote:
Very excited to be having both Lando Norris and George Russell on the F1 grid next year. What's the thinking on who will partner George?


Ocon "in the mix" apparently. If they do, it would read to me like an indication that Williams are acknowledging that they need decent drivers in the car to a) get a real view of how good/bad the car actually is 2) maximise whatever points scoring opportunities there are, 3) develop the car 4) be a more serious proposition for sponsors.


For Claire, it's a decision she has to make between Sirotkin, Kubica or Ocon!

As much as I'd love to see Kubica on the grid, I think the smart bet is Ocon, both because of his ability and his age. He might be a driver to build their future on, at least for a few years. However, I would allow both of them to compete for the job and the consistently fastest man would get the seat and the other the reserve role. Be great to put Kubica in the other Toro Rosso too. Either way Kubica back in F1 is a win for him and us as fans who feel like he was cheated of a few years in the sport. If only he hadn't had his accident he might have enjoyed several wins with Lotus partnering up with Raikkonen.

FINGER CROSSED FOR THEM BOTH!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:18 am 
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Pascal Wehrlein confirmed at Mahindra. It's looking increasingly likely Toro Rosso will hold on to Hartley, simply because there's not much left.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:21 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Vandoorne switches to Formula E.

It's a shame not to see him on the grid next year IMO, I would have liked to see him go up against Kvyat at Toro Rosso, I think his GP2 dominance shows that he had clear potential.

I don't think he could be in a more difficult place on the grid in terms of standing out and not looking below-F1 standard. Going up against Alonso in a dog of a car is a pretty brutal situation.

The margin of defeat flagged Vandoorne up as not being a potential WDC, if he stayed he would have just been making up the numbers.

I think he could have been a decent midfield level driver. I could see him potentially being Kimi/Rosberg/Webber level and that's good enough to win a WDC if car/luck goes your way.

I agree he would have never have been a top driver though.


I think Vandoorne is clearly two or three levels below Rosberg and Kimi. Yes going up against Alonso is toug but this isn't 2012 Fernando, he is older and somewhat disinterested now. Still an exceptional driver, but not quite as much so.

The margins of defeat have been the final nail in the coffin. Alonso has been trying to slipstream him into Q2 and he has still been qualifyling comfortably behind. Torro Rosso overlooking him despite his Honda experience and a dearth of other options speaks volumes.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:54 am 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Vandoorne switches to Formula E.

It's a shame not to see him on the grid next year IMO, I would have liked to see him go up against Kvyat at Toro Rosso, I think his GP2 dominance shows that he had clear potential.

I don't think he could be in a more difficult place on the grid in terms of standing out and not looking below-F1 standard. Going up against Alonso in a dog of a car is a pretty brutal situation.

The margin of defeat flagged Vandoorne up as not being a potential WDC, if he stayed he would have just been making up the numbers.

I think he could have been a decent midfield level driver. I could see him potentially being Kimi/Rosberg/Webber level and that's good enough to win a WDC if car/luck goes your way.

I agree he would have never have been a top driver though.


I think Vandoorne is clearly two or three levels below Rosberg and Kimi. Yes going up against Alonso is toug but this isn't 2012 Fernando, he is older and somewhat disinterested now. Still an exceptional driver, but not quite as much so.

The margins of defeat have been the final nail in the coffin. Alonso has been trying to slipstream him into Q2 and he has still been qualifyling comfortably behind. Torro Rosso overlooking him despite his Honda experience and a dearth of other options speaks volumes.

I disagree, I see no reason to believe his performance has dropped off in any meaningful way since 2012, if he wasn't trying/past it a driver with Vandoorne's pre-F1 career results wouldn't be qualifying over half a second slower than him consistently.

Alonso may sound fed up on the radio (and I have no doubt he is), but he's still blowing his teammates away and putting the car in places it has no right in being on pure car performance. So while I think Alonso has certainly lost interest, he still drives the car with everything he's got when it comes down to it.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:20 am 
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I'm not really surprised that the armchair experts continue to believe, that they know the strengths and weaknesses of the various F1 drivers, better than the professional teams. These guys have so much data to look at, but hey, they know nothing right?
Vandoorne has been really poor and the teams haven't been impressed 1 jot.

On here he's being compared to Rosberg and Kimi, 2 WDC's!
What possible basis could you claim that by?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:58 am 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
I'm not really surprised that the armchair experts continue to believe, that they know the strengths and weaknesses of the various F1 drivers, better than the professional teams. These guys have so much data to look at, but hey, they know nothing right?
Vandoorne has been really poor and the teams haven't been impressed 1 jot.

On here he's being compared to Rosberg and Kimi, 2 WDC's!
What possible basis could you claim that by?

Again, I'm saying I could see him potentially reaching that level, not that he is that level.

The basis for saying so is pretty straight forward though: Alonso thrashed Kimi, Alonso thrashed Vandoorne. With the assumption that he could perform better with a better car/team environment (not even close to an absurd suggestion given his pre-F1 record) he could easily turn out to be a decent midfield/journeyman driver.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:07 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
I'm not really surprised that the armchair experts continue to believe, that they know the strengths and weaknesses of the various F1 drivers, better than the professional teams. These guys have so much data to look at, but hey, they know nothing right?
Vandoorne has been really poor and the teams haven't been impressed 1 jot.

On here he's being compared to Rosberg and Kimi, 2 WDC's!
What possible basis could you claim that by?

Again, I'm saying I could see him potentially reaching that level, not that he is that level.

The basis for saying so is pretty straight forward though: Alonso thrashed Kimi, Alonso thrashed Vandoorne. With the assumption that he could perform better with a better car/team environment (not even close to an absurd suggestion given his pre-F1 record) he could easily turn out to be a decent midfield/journeyman driver.


I'd maybe give him the benefit of the doubt if it was just his first season and he'd shown signs of closing the gap.
It isn't and he hasn't.
I think the F1 teams feel the same.

When he came to F1 I actually thought he was going to give Alonso a tough time.
He just hasn't stepped up and developed his driving in any way, shape or form.
Maybe he can rebuild his reputation in formula E but I feel he'll need to dominate to get back into any of the F1 teams thoughts.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:06 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Vandoorne's in his second season.


Fine, if you want to be pedantic I could easily see Rosberg in his first or second season in a difficult car being just as outclassed by Alonso as Vandoorne.

Fact is you can't fill a grid with champions or potential champions.

I see Alonso beating Rosberg but in regards to Vandoorne I see no improvement from last year, if anything he's gone backwards, with Rosberg he's always shown an ability to improve himself, I don't believe he would have performed as badly as Vandoorne.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:16 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Vandoorne switches to Formula E.

It's a shame not to see him on the grid next year IMO, I would have liked to see him go up against Kvyat at Toro Rosso, I think his GP2 dominance shows that he had clear potential.

I don't think he could be in a more difficult place on the grid in terms of standing out and not looking below-F1 standard. Going up against Alonso in a dog of a car is a pretty brutal situation.

The margin of defeat flagged Vandoorne up as not being a potential WDC, if he stayed he would have just been making up the numbers.

I think he could have been a decent midfield level driver. I could see him potentially being Kimi/Rosberg/Webber level and that's good enough to win a WDC if car/luck goes your way.

I agree he would have never have been a top driver though.


I think Vandoorne is clearly two or three levels below Rosberg and Kimi. Yes going up against Alonso is toug but this isn't 2012 Fernando, he is older and somewhat disinterested now. Still an exceptional driver, but not quite as much so.

The margins of defeat have been the final nail in the coffin. Alonso has been trying to slipstream him into Q2 and he has still been qualifyling comfortably behind. Torro Rosso overlooking him despite his Honda experience and a dearth of other options speaks volumes.

I disagree, I see no reason to believe his performance has dropped off in any meaningful way since 2012, if he wasn't trying/past it a driver with Vandoorne's pre-F1 career results wouldn't be qualifying over half a second slower than him consistently.

Alonso may sound fed up on the radio (and I have no doubt he is), but he's still blowing his teammates away and putting the car in places it has no right in being on pure car performance. So while I think Alonso has certainly lost interest, he still drives the car with everything he's got when it comes down to it.


That's down to his ability. But I would be amazed if he was as quick as he was when he was in his prime with Ferrari.

Stoffel seems a tidy driver and doesn't appear to make many mistakes. But some drivers just don't have that extra little bit of pure lap time needed to thrive at the top.

Fine tuning a quick but erratic driver has been shown to be possible. But speding up a driver who simply isn't quick enough is far harder.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:22 pm 
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Given the strong rumours going around this is how it's looking

Mercedes
Hamilton
Bottas

Ferrari
Vettel
Leclerc

Red Bull
Verstappen
Gasly

Renault
Ricciardo
Hulkenberg

Force India
Perez*
Stroll*

Haas
Grosjean
Magnussen

McLaren
Sainz
Norris

STR
Kvyat
Albon*

Sauber
Raikkonen
Giovinazzi

Williams
Russell
Kubica*

*To be confirmed

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:36 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Given the strong rumours going around this is how it's looking

Mercedes
Hamilton
Bottas

Ferrari
Vettel
Leclerc

Red Bull
Verstappen
Gasly

Renault
Ricciardo
Hulkenberg

Force India
Perez*
Stroll*

Haas
Grosjean
Magnussen

McLaren
Sainz
Norris

STR
Kvyat
Albon*

Sauber
Raikkonen
Giovinazzi

Williams
Russell
Kubica*

*To be confirmed


3 young British drivers joining the grid at once would be great.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:40 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Given the strong rumours going around this is how it's looking

Mercedes
Hamilton
Bottas

Ferrari
Vettel
Leclerc

Red Bull
Verstappen
Gasly

Renault
Ricciardo
Hulkenberg

Force India
Perez*
Stroll*

Haas
Grosjean
Magnussen

McLaren
Sainz
Norris

STR
Kvyat
Albon*

Sauber
Raikkonen
Giovinazzi

Williams
Russell
Kubica*

*To be confirmed


3 young British drivers joining the grid at once would be great.

Yeah even though Albon races under the Thai flag it's fair to say he's at least 75% British

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:52 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Given the strong rumours going around this is how it's looking

Mercedes
Hamilton
Bottas

Ferrari
Vettel
Leclerc

Red Bull
Verstappen
Gasly

Renault
Ricciardo
Hulkenberg

Force India
Perez*
Stroll*

Haas
Grosjean
Magnussen

McLaren
Sainz
Norris

STR
Kvyat
Albon*

Sauber
Raikkonen
Giovinazzi

Williams
Russell
Kubica*

*To be confirmed


3 young British drivers joining the grid at once would be great.

Yeah even though Albon races under the Thai flag it's fair to say he's at least 75% British

How easy would his Formula E contract be to break though and would Red Bull be prepared to pay it off?

Given that it's with Nissan (Renault) I doubt they're going to be happy to let him go to Red Bull without a fuss behind closed doors.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:58 pm 
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Posts: 28426
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Given the strong rumours going around this is how it's looking

Mercedes
Hamilton
Bottas

Ferrari
Vettel
Leclerc

Red Bull
Verstappen
Gasly

Renault
Ricciardo
Hulkenberg

Force India
Perez*
Stroll*

Haas
Grosjean
Magnussen

McLaren
Sainz
Norris

STR
Kvyat
Albon*

Sauber
Raikkonen
Giovinazzi

Williams
Russell
Kubica*

*To be confirmed


3 young British drivers joining the grid at once would be great.

Yeah even though Albon races under the Thai flag it's fair to say he's at least 75% British

How easy would his Formula E contract be to break though and would Red Bull be prepared to pay it off?

Given that it's with Nissan (Renault) I doubt they're going to be happy to let him go to Red Bull without a fuss behind closed doors.

A FE contract wouldn't be that expensive to break in F1 terms I would be guessing, far less than what Mercedes paid Williams for Bottas I would think?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:04 pm 
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Posts: 7521
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Given the strong rumours going around this is how it's looking

Mercedes
Hamilton
Bottas

Ferrari
Vettel
Leclerc

Red Bull
Verstappen
Gasly

Renault
Ricciardo
Hulkenberg

Force India
Perez*
Stroll*

Haas
Grosjean
Magnussen

McLaren
Sainz
Norris

STR
Kvyat
Albon*

Sauber
Raikkonen
Giovinazzi

Williams
Russell
Kubica*

*To be confirmed


3 young British drivers joining the grid at once would be great.

Yeah even though Albon races under the Thai flag it's fair to say he's at least 75% British

How easy would his Formula E contract be to break though and would Red Bull be prepared to pay it off?

Given that it's with Nissan (Renault) I doubt they're going to be happy to let him go to Red Bull without a fuss behind closed doors.

A FE contract wouldn't be that expensive to break in F1 terms I would be guessing, far less than what Mercedes paid Williams for Bottas I would think?

I'd imagine so but its still something that would need to be paid off and I doubt Renault are going to do Red Bull any favours on the price right now.

I think it will be a hurdle for him, not one that's impossible to overcome, but it's a factor when they will also be considering drivers who are free agents next year.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:30 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
3 young British drivers joining the grid at once would be great.

Yeah even though Albon races under the Thai flag it's fair to say he's at least 75% British

How easy would his Formula E contract be to break though and would Red Bull be prepared to pay it off?

Given that it's with Nissan (Renault) I doubt they're going to be happy to let him go to Red Bull without a fuss behind closed doors.

A FE contract wouldn't be that expensive to break in F1 terms I would be guessing, far less than what Mercedes paid Williams for Bottas I would think?

I'd imagine so but its still something that would need to be paid off and I doubt Renault are going to do Red Bull any favours on the price right now.

I think it will be a hurdle for him, not one that's impossible to overcome, but it's a factor when they will also be considering drivers who are free agents next year.

There has to be an intrinsic value though and I'm sure such things can go to some kind of independent jurisdiction if one party is being unreasonable, what's best for the driver has also got to be considered, Albon is not going to be earning a vast amount of money.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:02 pm 
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Albon did not take part in todays FE test, Buemi driving both cars, amid rumours of Marko negotiating with Nissan.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:17 pm 
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All of this could've been avoided if they hadn't just given up on him in the first place.

Honestly, if I'm Albon, a big part of me would want to tell Red Bull to just chocolate fudge cake off. I know he won't because ultimately, it's an F1 seat, so he's going to want that above all else. But it must be so tempting to turn around and say, "You know what? You gave up on me. Dams gave me another chance, and have now put their belief in me by giving me a good FE seat. So screw you."

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:47 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
All of this could've been avoided if they hadn't just given up on him in the first place.

Honestly, if I'm Albon, a big part of me would want to tell Red Bull to just chocolate fudge cake off. I know he won't because ultimately, it's an F1 seat, so he's going to want that above all else. But it must be so tempting to turn around and say, "You know what? You gave up on me. Dams gave me another chance, and have now put their belief in me by giving me a good FE seat. So screw you."

I honestly wish more people would tell 'screw you' to Marko. Then he'd have to run his team(s) in a more humane way. But since they don't, he obviously can get away with it, so he'll keep doing it.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:04 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
All of this could've been avoided if they hadn't just given up on him in the first place.

Honestly, if I'm Albon, a big part of me would want to tell Red Bull to just chocolate fudge cake off. I know he won't because ultimately, it's an F1 seat, so he's going to want that above all else. But it must be so tempting to turn around and say, "You know what? You gave up on me. Dams gave me another chance, and have now put their belief in me by giving me a good FE seat. So screw you."

Let's be honest though, FE is basically for drivers that can't get into F1, if Albon says no then basically that could be his F1 dreams done and dusted.

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