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Who does Verstappen assume he will pass without difficulty?
Vettel 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Raikkonen 34%  34%  [ 10 ]
Bottas 34%  34%  [ 10 ]
Ricciardo 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
Hamilton 21%  21%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 29
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pokerman
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:44 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Eventually Verstappen will realise he can't just put his car wherever he wants and expect the move to work. He crashes more than any driver since Maldonado, and always has the gall to put forward some fanciful excuse for why he cocked it up.

Apparently he lied when he said that he had a sudden burst of 150hp when he crashed in qualifying.

He did? I wouldn't be surprised, but I haven't seen that.

It's supposed to have come from Horner.

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pokerman
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:48 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
Max needs to find himself in the position of being a championship contender - that seemed to do it for many drivers in the past. I mean to a certain extent, good drivers are always going to make moves that are completely bonkers when they don't work out (and amazingly brilliant when they do), but chasing a championship teaches temperance like nothing else.


To me your are on point here. When moves like these work out they will have a big impact and can really give advantage and the crowd will love it. Sometimes they don't work out, like getting a flat tyre, and then the driver is "stupid", "impatient"...etc.

That's racing. On to China! :)

It's not the way to compete for titles though.


Hamilton won the 2008 championship whilst being very aggressive.

As per usual a driver has had two bad races in a row and everyone is going over the top. Coupled with the fact the lad is still younger than most drivers are when they make their debut. Hardly any surprise he loses points due to immaturity. Has any driver been the finished article at 20?

I believe you pulled me up for calling Verstappen immature last year and now he's a year older? :)

Yes he's still young and will learn, well that's if he doesn't keep believing that it's never his fault?

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pokerman
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:50 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:
To me your are on point here. When moves like these work out they will have a big impact and can really give advantage and the crowd will love it. Sometimes they don't work out, like getting a flat tyre, and then the driver is "stupid", "impatient"...etc.

That's racing. On to China! :)

It's not the way to compete for titles though.


Hamilton won the 2008 championship whilst being very aggressive.

As per usual a driver has had two bad races in a row and everyone is going over the top. Coupled with the fact the lad is still younger than most drivers are when they make their debut. Hardly any surprise he loses points due to immaturity. Has any driver been the finished article at 20?

I tend to agree with this. Max will learn over time that risk/reward considerations are important and that it's not just about making a move but actually completing it cleanly. He often dives into an opening and then runs wide or makes contact. Once his nose is in front, he loses track sometimes. Turn one in Mexico last year was like that.

He'll tidy up his act over time. Lewis is arguably too conservative these days. Who would have thought we'd ever say that back in 2008!?


Yes Lewis has had a total change of approach. He is probably the most pragmatic out of any other than Kimi these days.

Indeed Hamilton's early laps were more about keeping out of trouble while Verstappen was totally going for it.

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2013: 5th Place
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2019: Currently 32nd

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mikeyg123
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:58 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Indeed Hamilton's early laps were more about keeping out of trouble while Verstappen was totally going for it.


Yes although lets not forget, he did pass three cars in one go so he wasn't being that cautious. Neither was he cautious when he refused to leap out of the way for Verstappen. But yes, Hamilton has become a lot more cautious. At 23 he was as impetuous as Verstappen is at 20.
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pokerman
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:36 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Indeed Hamilton's early laps were more about keeping out of trouble while Verstappen was totally going for it.


Yes although lets not forget, he did pass three cars in one go so he wasn't being that cautious. Neither was he cautious when he refused to leap out of the way for Verstappen. But yes, Hamilton has become a lot more cautious. At 23 he was as impetuous as Verstappen is at 20.

Indeed, what Verstappen does have at the moment is all the time in the world but his youthful impatience will probably not let him realise that, he wants it right here, right now.

I did say that last year he was getting involved in too many collisions and with that will bring retirements or races ruined.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 32nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)
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mikeyg123
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:38 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Indeed Hamilton's early laps were more about keeping out of trouble while Verstappen was totally going for it.


Yes although lets not forget, he did pass three cars in one go so he wasn't being that cautious. Neither was he cautious when he refused to leap out of the way for Verstappen. But yes, Hamilton has become a lot more cautious. At 23 he was as impetuous as Verstappen is at 20.

Indeed, what Verstappen does have at the moment is all the time in the world but his youthful impatience will probably not let him realise that, he wants it right here, right now.

I did say that last year he was getting involved in too many collisions and with that will bring retirements or races ruined.


Last year he was unfortunate with poor driving around him. Irrelevant as to what has happened in the first two races this year.
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iano
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:45 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Yes Lewis has had a total change of approach. He is probably the most pragmatic out of any other than Kimi these days.

Indeed Hamilton's early laps were more about keeping out of trouble while Verstappen was totally going for it.



The ambiguities of language..... sort of reads the 'it' is 'trouble'.
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iano
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Eventually Verstappen will realise he can't just put his car wherever he wants and expect the move to work. He crashes more than any driver since Maldonado, and always has the gall to put forward some fanciful excuse for why he cocked it up.

Apparently he lied when he said that he had a sudden burst of 150hp when he crashed in qualifying.

He did? I wouldn't be surprised, but I haven't seen that.

It's supposed to have come from Horner.


Lying seems a bit strong. "Imagining" may be more appropriate. While Horner may have said the burst of hp did not happen, I cannot believe he would say may was lying.
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TheGiantHogweed
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:00 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Indeed Hamilton's early laps were more about keeping out of trouble while Verstappen was totally going for it.


Yes although lets not forget, he did pass three cars in one go so he wasn't being that cautious. Neither was he cautious when he refused to leap out of the way for Verstappen. But yes, Hamilton has become a lot more cautious. At 23 he was as impetuous as Verstappen is at 20.

Indeed, what Verstappen does have at the moment is all the time in the world but his youthful impatience will probably not let him realise that, he wants it right here, right now.

I did say that last year he was getting involved in too many collisions and with that will bring retirements or races ruined.


Last year he was unfortunate with poor driving around him. Irrelevant as to what has happened in the first two races this year.


Well I agreed with Pokerman that last year, Verstappen did basically put himself at risk a few too many times. I won't blame him at all in Austria or Singapore. But in Spain, going on the outside of 2 drivers that were already going in tight really wasn't the smartest move. He could have gone a lot wider. I have to say he was heavily to blame for that. And as they didn't investigate it further even though Bottas got away with it, I couldn't blame Bottas.

There were other occasions he took risks but got away with them. Such as Canada where he contacted Vettel's front wing with his left rear tyre by risking an overtake. Not often you get away with that. They again, he did the same on Hamilton in Mexico and hit his right rear tyre again. This made Mercedes decide to change Hamilton's front wing due to the damage. Then Verstappen also took a risk when trying to retake the position of Ricciardo in Hungary. And it cost himself a pretty likely 3rd place and the team a whole load more points.

I think he was very lucky to get away with some of the things he did last year although I have to say, it did seem like some were worth it. But I think he should now realise that doing these sorts of things can go wrong as he's had yet another contact which has this time ended his own race. And I think Australia was an example of him trying to hard. I know Verstappen isn't in a car that can likely win the title, but he needs to take less risks as taking as many as he has has so far proved costly.
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Black_Flag_11
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Eventually Verstappen will realise he can't just put his car wherever he wants and expect the move to work. He crashes more than any driver since Maldonado, and always has the gall to put forward some fanciful excuse for why he cocked it up.

Apparently he lied when he said that he had a sudden burst of 150hp when he crashed in qualifying.

He did? I wouldn't be surprised, but I haven't seen that.

It's supposed to have come from Horner.

Is there an article or something that has said this?
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mikeyg123
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:32 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Indeed Hamilton's early laps were more about keeping out of trouble while Verstappen was totally going for it.


Yes although lets not forget, he did pass three cars in one go so he wasn't being that cautious. Neither was he cautious when he refused to leap out of the way for Verstappen. But yes, Hamilton has become a lot more cautious. At 23 he was as impetuous as Verstappen is at 20.

Indeed, what Verstappen does have at the moment is all the time in the world but his youthful impatience will probably not let him realise that, he wants it right here, right now.

I did say that last year he was getting involved in too many collisions and with that will bring retirements or races ruined.


Last year he was unfortunate with poor driving around him. Irrelevant as to what has happened in the first two races this year.


Well I agreed with Pokerman that last year, Verstappen did basically put himself at risk a few too many times. I won't blame him at all in Austria or Singapore. But in Spain, going on the outside of 2 drivers that were already going in tight really wasn't the smartest move. He could have gone a lot wider. I have to say he was heavily to blame for that. And as they didn't investigate it further even though Bottas got away with it, I couldn't blame Bottas.

There were other occasions he took risks but got away with them. Such as Canada where he contacted Vettel's front wing with his left rear tyre by risking an overtake. Not often you get away with that. They again, he did the same on Hamilton in Mexico and hit his right rear tyre again. This made Mercedes decide to change Hamilton's front wing due to the damage. Then Verstappen also took a risk when trying to retake the position of Ricciardo in Hungary. And it cost himself a pretty likely 3rd place and the team a whole load more points.

I think he was very lucky to get away with some of the things he did last year although I have to say, it did seem like some were worth it. But I think he should now realise that doing these sorts of things can go wrong as he's had yet another contact which has this time ended his own race. And I think Australia was an example of him trying to hard. I know Verstappen isn't in a car that can likely win the title, but he needs to take less risks as taking as many as he has has so far proved costly.


Hang on... How can you not blame Bottas for Spain as he didn't get penalised despite getting away with it yet blame Verstappen for Hamilton hitting him in Mexico. He got away unharmed and didn't get penalised....
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Invade
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:13 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
Max needs to find himself in the position of being a championship contender - that seemed to do it for many drivers in the past. I mean to a certain extent, good drivers are always going to make moves that are completely bonkers when they don't work out (and amazingly brilliant when they do), but chasing a championship teaches temperance like nothing else.


To me your are on point here. When moves like these work out they will have a big impact and can really give advantage and the crowd will love it. Sometimes they don't work out, like getting a flat tyre, and then the driver is "stupid", "impatient"...etc.

That's racing. On to China! :)

It's not the way to compete for titles though.


Hamilton won the 2008 championship whilst being very aggressive.

As per usual a driver has had two bad races in a row and everyone is going over the top. Coupled with the fact the lad is still younger than most drivers are when they make their debut. Hardly any surprise he loses points due to immaturity. Has any driver been the finished article at 20?

I tend to agree with this. Max will learn over time that risk/reward considerations are important and that it's not just about making a move but actually completing it cleanly. He often dives into an opening and then runs wide or makes contact. Once his nose is in front, he loses track sometimes. Turn one in Mexico last year was like that.

He'll tidy up his act over time. Lewis is arguably too conservative these days. Who would have thought we'd ever say that back in 2008!?


I think Lewis has a very good balance at the moment. He is indeed pragmatic and secure and a close to fully matured racer. It will be interesting to see how much more risk he tries to take if he keeps losing further ground to Vettel in the Championship race. I know this is off-topic but I found the discussion between you and mikey worthy of note.
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pokerman
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:32 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Indeed Hamilton's early laps were more about keeping out of trouble while Verstappen was totally going for it.


Yes although lets not forget, he did pass three cars in one go so he wasn't being that cautious. Neither was he cautious when he refused to leap out of the way for Verstappen. But yes, Hamilton has become a lot more cautious. At 23 he was as impetuous as Verstappen is at 20.

Indeed, what Verstappen does have at the moment is all the time in the world but his youthful impatience will probably not let him realise that, he wants it right here, right now.

I did say that last year he was getting involved in too many collisions and with that will bring retirements or races ruined.


Last year he was unfortunate with poor driving around him. Irrelevant as to what has happened in the first two races this year.

From memory he clipped and damaged Vettel's front wing in Canada, he T-boned Ricciardo and put him out of the race for which he got a penalty, he hit the side of Massa's car and put himself out of the race, he made contact with both Vettel and Hamilton in Mexico, and he also got involved in two 3 car shunts, one I don't blame him for but the other was quite an ambitious move to go around the outside of 2 cars into a tightening chicane.

You're kind of saying that both Vettel and Ricciardo were driving poorly in the first 2 instances and then both Vettel and Hamilton in Mexico

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 32nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Last edited by pokerman on Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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pokerman
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:34 am 
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iano wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Yes Lewis has had a total change of approach. He is probably the most pragmatic out of any other than Kimi these days.

Indeed Hamilton's early laps were more about keeping out of trouble while Verstappen was totally going for it.



The ambiguities of language..... sort of reads the 'it' is 'trouble'.

No trouble wasn't a direct reference to Verstappen. :lol:

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 32nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)
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pokerman
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:35 am 
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iano wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Eventually Verstappen will realise he can't just put his car wherever he wants and expect the move to work. He crashes more than any driver since Maldonado, and always has the gall to put forward some fanciful excuse for why he cocked it up.

Apparently he lied when he said that he had a sudden burst of 150hp when he crashed in qualifying.

He did? I wouldn't be surprised, but I haven't seen that.

It's supposed to have come from Horner.


Lying seems a bit strong. "Imagining" may be more appropriate. While Horner may have said the burst of hp did not happen, I cannot believe he would say may was lying.

No Horner did not say that, that would be my take on someone not telling the truth.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 32nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)
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pokerman
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:39 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Eventually Verstappen will realise he can't just put his car wherever he wants and expect the move to work. He crashes more than any driver since Maldonado, and always has the gall to put forward some fanciful excuse for why he cocked it up.

Apparently he lied when he said that he had a sudden burst of 150hp when he crashed in qualifying.

He did? I wouldn't be surprised, but I haven't seen that.

It's supposed to have come from Horner.

Is there an article or something that has said this?

No I heard it said elsewhere and it wasn't challenged, maybe I should have said allegedly rather than apparently?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 32nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)
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pokerman
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:42 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Yes although lets not forget, he did pass three cars in one go so he wasn't being that cautious. Neither was he cautious when he refused to leap out of the way for Verstappen. But yes, Hamilton has become a lot more cautious. At 23 he was as impetuous as Verstappen is at 20.

Indeed, what Verstappen does have at the moment is all the time in the world but his youthful impatience will probably not let him realise that, he wants it right here, right now.

I did say that last year he was getting involved in too many collisions and with that will bring retirements or races ruined.


Last year he was unfortunate with poor driving around him. Irrelevant as to what has happened in the first two races this year.


Well I agreed with Pokerman that last year, Verstappen did basically put himself at risk a few too many times. I won't blame him at all in Austria or Singapore. But in Spain, going on the outside of 2 drivers that were already going in tight really wasn't the smartest move. He could have gone a lot wider. I have to say he was heavily to blame for that. And as they didn't investigate it further even though Bottas got away with it, I couldn't blame Bottas.

There were other occasions he took risks but got away with them. Such as Canada where he contacted Vettel's front wing with his left rear tyre by risking an overtake. Not often you get away with that. They again, he did the same on Hamilton in Mexico and hit his right rear tyre again. This made Mercedes decide to change Hamilton's front wing due to the damage. Then Verstappen also took a risk when trying to retake the position of Ricciardo in Hungary. And it cost himself a pretty likely 3rd place and the team a whole load more points.

I think he was very lucky to get away with some of the things he did last year although I have to say, it did seem like some were worth it. But I think he should now realise that doing these sorts of things can go wrong as he's had yet another contact which has this time ended his own race. And I think Australia was an example of him trying to hard. I know Verstappen isn't in a car that can likely win the title, but he needs to take less risks as taking as many as he has has so far proved costly.


Hang on... How can you not blame Bottas for Spain as he didn't get penalised despite getting away with it yet blame Verstappen for Hamilton hitting him in Mexico. He got away unharmed and didn't get penalised....

In terms of using the stewards as evidence they don't normally get involved if the transgressor comes off worse.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 32nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)
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mmi16
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:52 am 
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He has to finish races before he can pass anyone!

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robins13
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:35 am 
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mmi16 wrote:
He has to finish races before he can pass anyone!

Once finished the race he cannot pass anyone, so he has to do before finishing the race :-P :]
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mikeyg123
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:22 am 
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pokerman wrote:
In terms of using the stewards as evidence they don't normally get involved if the transgressor comes off worse.


Yes. My point is you can't use that as proof of Bottas' innocence in Spain but not use it when it applies to Verstappen in Mexico.
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mikeyg123
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:24 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Indeed Hamilton's early laps were more about keeping out of trouble while Verstappen was totally going for it.


Yes although lets not forget, he did pass three cars in one go so he wasn't being that cautious. Neither was he cautious when he refused to leap out of the way for Verstappen. But yes, Hamilton has become a lot more cautious. At 23 he was as impetuous as Verstappen is at 20.

Indeed, what Verstappen does have at the moment is all the time in the world but his youthful impatience will probably not let him realise that, he wants it right here, right now.

I did say that last year he was getting involved in too many collisions and with that will bring retirements or races ruined.


Last year he was unfortunate with poor driving around him. Irrelevant as to what has happened in the first two races this year.

From memory he clipped and damaged Vettel's front wing in Canada, he T-boned Ricciardo and put him out of the race for which he got a penalty, he hit the side of Massa's car and put himself out of the race, he made contact with both Vettel and Hamilton in Mexico, and he also got involved in two 3 car shunts, one I don't blame him for but the other was quite an ambitious move to go around the outside of 2 cars into a tightening chicane.

You're kind of saying that both Vettel and Ricciardo were driving poorly in the first 2 instances and then both Vettel and Hamilton in Mexico


Kvyat spun into him in Austria taking him out there as well.
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TheGiantHogweed
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:58 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Yes although lets not forget, he did pass three cars in one go so he wasn't being that cautious. Neither was he cautious when he refused to leap out of the way for Verstappen. But yes, Hamilton has become a lot more cautious. At 23 he was as impetuous as Verstappen is at 20.

Indeed, what Verstappen does have at the moment is all the time in the world but his youthful impatience will probably not let him realise that, he wants it right here, right now.

I did say that last year he was getting involved in too many collisions and with that will bring retirements or races ruined.


Last year he was unfortunate with poor driving around him. Irrelevant as to what has happened in the first two races this year.


Well I agreed with Pokerman that last year, Verstappen did basically put himself at risk a few too many times. I won't blame him at all in Austria or Singapore. But in Spain, going on the outside of 2 drivers that were already going in tight really wasn't the smartest move. He could have gone a lot wider. I have to say he was heavily to blame for that. And as they didn't investigate it further even though Bottas got away with it, I couldn't blame Bottas.

There were other occasions he took risks but got away with them. Such as Canada where he contacted Vettel's front wing with his left rear tyre by risking an overtake. Not often you get away with that. They again, he did the same on Hamilton in Mexico and hit his right rear tyre again. This made Mercedes decide to change Hamilton's front wing due to the damage. Then Verstappen also took a risk when trying to retake the position of Ricciardo in Hungary. And it cost himself a pretty likely 3rd place and the team a whole load more points.

I think he was very lucky to get away with some of the things he did last year although I have to say, it did seem like some were worth it. But I think he should now realise that doing these sorts of things can go wrong as he's had yet another contact which has this time ended his own race. And I think Australia was an example of him trying to hard. I know Verstappen isn't in a car that can likely win the title, but he needs to take less risks as taking as many as he has has so far proved costly.


Hang on... How can you not blame Bottas for Spain as he didn't get penalised despite getting away with it yet blame Verstappen for Hamilton hitting him in Mexico. He got away unharmed and didn't get penalised....

I'm saying he got away without damage to himself. and as he closed in on Hamilton, I doubt Hamilton will have got a penalty if Verstappen had got a puncture in mexico. Bottas started ahead of the 2 drivers that both chose to go on the outside when Bottas was still there and he ran out of space.
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iano
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:39 am 
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robins13 wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
He has to finish races before he can pass anyone!

Once finished the race he cannot pass anyone, so he has to do before finishing the race :-P :]

Actually they get a lot easier to pass once they cross the finish line!
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Siao7
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:57 am 
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iano wrote:
robins13 wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
He has to finish races before he can pass anyone!

Once finished the race he cannot pass anyone, so he has to do before finishing the race :-P :]

Actually they get a lot easier to pass once they cross the finish line!

Not on three wheels!
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mikeyg123
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:15 am 
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I'm saying he got away without damage to himself. and as he closed in on Hamilton, I doubt Hamilton will have got a penalty if Verstappen had got a puncture in mexico. Bottas started ahead of the 2 drivers that both chose to go on the outside when Bottas was still there and he ran out of space.[/quote]

Surely you can't blame Verstappen for Mexico though as you "can't blame Bottas for Spain" because the stewards didn't penalise ? That logic also works in the Verstappen/Hamilton Mexico incident?

Come to think of it. Wouldn't the same apply for Canada as Well?
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pokerman
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:30 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
In terms of using the stewards as evidence they don't normally get involved if the transgressor comes off worse.


Yes. My point is you can't use that as proof of Bottas' innocence in Spain but not use it when it applies to Verstappen in Mexico.

Well in Mexico he didn't crash anyone out of the race, that would be moreso Vettel but in the process he ruined his own race as well plus I got the feeling that the stewards didn't want to interfere with the title race that late in the season.

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pokerman
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:33 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Yes although lets not forget, he did pass three cars in one go so he wasn't being that cautious. Neither was he cautious when he refused to leap out of the way for Verstappen. But yes, Hamilton has become a lot more cautious. At 23 he was as impetuous as Verstappen is at 20.

Indeed, what Verstappen does have at the moment is all the time in the world but his youthful impatience will probably not let him realise that, he wants it right here, right now.

I did say that last year he was getting involved in too many collisions and with that will bring retirements or races ruined.


Last year he was unfortunate with poor driving around him. Irrelevant as to what has happened in the first two races this year.

From memory he clipped and damaged Vettel's front wing in Canada, he T-boned Ricciardo and put him out of the race for which he got a penalty, he hit the side of Massa's car and put himself out of the race, he made contact with both Vettel and Hamilton in Mexico, and he also got involved in two 3 car shunts, one I don't blame him for but the other was quite an ambitious move to go around the outside of 2 cars into a tightening chicane.

You're kind of saying that both Vettel and Ricciardo were driving poorly in the first 2 instances and then both Vettel and Hamilton in Mexico


Kvyat spun into him in Austria taking him out there as well.

I totally don't remember that but that sounds like something I wouldn't want to be listing against Verstappen.

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pokerman
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:34 am 
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iano wrote:
robins13 wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
He has to finish races before he can pass anyone!

Once finished the race he cannot pass anyone, so he has to do before finishing the race :-P :]

Actually they get a lot easier to pass once they cross the finish line!

Ask Vettel about that. 8O

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pokerman
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:40 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Surely you can't blame Verstappen for Mexico though as you "can't blame Bottas for Spain" because the stewards didn't penalise ? That logic also works in the Verstappen/Hamilton Mexico incident?

Come to think of it. Wouldn't the same apply for Canada as Well?

If you are looking to make some kind of comparison with Bahrain you need to look at Vettel's onboard when he keeps making steering inputs to the left when the track goes to the right, so he's deliberately steering his car towards Hamilton against the direction of the corner, in that instance if it's Hamilton's car that gets damaged then maybe the stewards get interested?

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mikeyg123
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:39 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Surely you can't blame Verstappen for Mexico though as you "can't blame Bottas for Spain" because the stewards didn't penalise ? That logic also works in the Verstappen/Hamilton Mexico incident?

Come to think of it. Wouldn't the same apply for Canada as Well?

If you are looking to make some kind of comparison with Bahrain you need to look at Vettel's onboard when he keeps making steering inputs to the left when the track goes to the right, so he's deliberately steering his car towards Hamilton against the direction of the corner, in that instance if it's Hamilton's car that gets damaged then maybe the stewards get interested?


I'm sure they would be. I'm struggling to see the relevance?

Lack of action from the stewards was used as proof of Bottas' innocence in Spain. Specifically as he got away with it and still didn't get a penalty. Later in the post Verstappen is blamed for incidents with Vettel in Canada and Hamilton in Mexico. In both incidents he got away without damage and didn't receive a penalty. Surely the poster should apply his logic used to clear Bottas of blame in Spain to Verstappen in Canada and Mexico?
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TheGiantHogweed
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:39 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Surely you can't blame Verstappen for Mexico though as you "can't blame Bottas for Spain" because the stewards didn't penalise ? That logic also works in the Verstappen/Hamilton Mexico incident?

Come to think of it. Wouldn't the same apply for Canada as Well?

If you are looking to make some kind of comparison with Bahrain you need to look at Vettel's onboard when he keeps making steering inputs to the left when the track goes to the right, so he's deliberately steering his car towards Hamilton against the direction of the corner, in that instance if it's Hamilton's car that gets damaged then maybe the stewards get interested?


I'm sure they would be. I'm struggling to see the relevance?

Lack of action from the stewards was used as proof of Bottas' innocence in Spain. Specifically as he got away with it and still didn't get a penalty. Later in the post Verstappen is blamed for incidents with Vettel in Canada and Hamilton in Mexico. In both incidents he got away without damage and didn't receive a penalty. Surely the poster should apply his logic used to clear Bottas of blame in Spain to Verstappen in Canada and Mexico?


I'm not blaming Verstappen for Canada or Mexico, I'm just saying it would be down to his own risk if his tyres blew on both occasions and I don't think he could really blame anyone else. While with Bottas's incident in Spain, I think him and Kimi were less to blame than Verstappen. At the point the contact was made, Verstappen still had a cars width to the left of him. He should have known that he chose to keep closing in on 2 drivers. That is why I blame him for this.

My main point is that I think there will have been no action if Verstappen had got a puncture on in either Canada or Mexico. Whereas, I'm not convinced that there will have been no action if Bottas had retired in Spain instead of Kimi and Verstappen. As Bottas left room for them and Verstappen took a big risk and closed in when there wasn't enough track space to do this.
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shoot999
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:00 pm 
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360 view of overtake
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pokerman
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Surely you can't blame Verstappen for Mexico though as you "can't blame Bottas for Spain" because the stewards didn't penalise ? That logic also works in the Verstappen/Hamilton Mexico incident?

Come to think of it. Wouldn't the same apply for Canada as Well?

If you are looking to make some kind of comparison with Bahrain you need to look at Vettel's onboard when he keeps making steering inputs to the left when the track goes to the right, so he's deliberately steering his car towards Hamilton against the direction of the corner, in that instance if it's Hamilton's car that gets damaged then maybe the stewards get interested?


I'm sure they would be. I'm struggling to see the relevance?

Lack of action from the stewards was used as proof of Bottas' innocence in Spain. Specifically as he got away with it and still didn't get a penalty. Later in the post Verstappen is blamed for incidents with Vettel in Canada and Hamilton in Mexico. In both incidents he got away without damage and didn't receive a penalty. Surely the poster should apply his logic used to clear Bottas of blame in Spain to Verstappen in Canada and Mexico?

I don't believe he's saying that Verstappen should be penalised but merely highlighting the dangers of clipping front wings with his rear tyres?

_________________
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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
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2019: Currently 32nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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mikeyg123
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:11 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Surely you can't blame Verstappen for Mexico though as you "can't blame Bottas for Spain" because the stewards didn't penalise ? That logic also works in the Verstappen/Hamilton Mexico incident?

Come to think of it. Wouldn't the same apply for Canada as Well?

If you are looking to make some kind of comparison with Bahrain you need to look at Vettel's onboard when he keeps making steering inputs to the left when the track goes to the right, so he's deliberately steering his car towards Hamilton against the direction of the corner, in that instance if it's Hamilton's car that gets damaged then maybe the stewards get interested?


I'm sure they would be. I'm struggling to see the relevance?

Lack of action from the stewards was used as proof of Bottas' innocence in Spain. Specifically as he got away with it and still didn't get a penalty. Later in the post Verstappen is blamed for incidents with Vettel in Canada and Hamilton in Mexico. In both incidents he got away without damage and didn't receive a penalty. Surely the poster should apply his logic used to clear Bottas of blame in Spain to Verstappen in Canada and Mexico?

I don't believe he's saying that Verstappen should be penalised but merely highlighting the dangers of clipping front wings with his rear tyres?


I'm sorry but I don't think you're following at all.
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