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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:06 pm 
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Anyway back on topic. Good move by Dan, if Red Bull weren't going to match Maxs deal then he shouldn't stick around; whether he was treated as a number two or not he'd probably feel that way.


Last edited by dompclarke on Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:13 pm 
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I think I see the topic somewhere in the distance... nope, going to need a bigger telescope.

As much as I’d love to weigh in on karting, this isn’t the place.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:46 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
da4an1qu1 wrote:
Any professional F1 competing in a go-cart unsanctioned by his team would be a complete dumbass. Any F1 team that would sanction it should be kicked out of F1 for not being of the standard of an F1 constructor.

Kubica! No more needs to be written.

Apart from that was a freak rallying accident!

Sad apart about it is that he didn't want to do the rally but got talked into it and it was going to be his last rally.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:49 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
da4an1qu1 wrote:
Any professional F1 competing in a go-cart unsanctioned by his team would be a complete dumbass. Any F1 team that would sanction it should be kicked out of F1 for not being of the standard of an F1 constructor.

Kubica! No more needs to be written.

Apart from that was a freak rallying accident!


There is a point though, there have been injuries due to activities outside F1. Remember Montoya's tennis/motorcycle accident or Webber's leg? These drivers cost them millions and they cannot replace them as easy.

Best wrap them in cotton wool and stick them in a padded cell between time in the car then, never know when they may get injured...

As you say Montoya had a tennis accident and no one can seriously say drivers should be banned from a safe activity that keeps them fit. The frequency of drivers being unable to drive due to injury is so small why should teams get anal about this?

It's good to see Alonso off in other series, it's good advertising for McLaren, F1 and clearly Alonso himself; F1 drivers have done the race of champions many times both while active in F1 and after.

I feel we should encourage drivers doing these things and it will be beneficial to the sport

Montoya said it was a tennis accident to try and not annoy his new boss Ron Dennis, I think it came out later as being a quad bike accident?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:46 am 
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dompclarke wrote:
Anyway back on topic. Good move by Dan, if Red Bull weren't going to match Maxs deal then he shouldn't stick around; whether he was treated as a number two or not he'd probably feel that way.

If you are paid much less , you know you are a #2.

#2 only has a chance at the championship if the team is dominant. Hard to see Red Bull in the next two years being dominant.

Also, it is tough to be #2 to a so much younger driver. If your a #2 to an older or similar age driver, then your turn may come.

From all reports, he was quite desperate to leave.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:32 am 
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Off topic I know, but I wonder if drivers still ski... I remember seeing Kimi and of course Michael Schumacher skiing at Ferrari events. Seems an awfully risky activity, and that's before Michael's tragic accident.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:40 am 
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ALESI wrote:
Off topic I know, but I wonder if drivers still ski... I remember seeing Kimi and of course Michael Schumacher skiing at Ferrari events. Seems an awfully risky activity, and that's before Michael's tragic accident.


I'm sure if they want to ski they ski. Pretty sure I've seen Hamilton snowboarding on Instagram.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:33 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Off topic I know, but I wonder if drivers still ski... I remember seeing Kimi and of course Michael Schumacher skiing at Ferrari events. Seems an awfully risky activity, and that's before Michael's tragic accident.


I'm sure if they want to ski they ski. Pretty sure I've seen Hamilton snowboarding on Instagram.

Yes, off topic, but skiing is not necessarily a risky activity, depends how risky you make it.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:07 am 
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iano wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Anyway back on topic. Good move by Dan, if Red Bull weren't going to match Maxs deal then he shouldn't stick around; whether he was treated as a number two or not he'd probably feel that way.

If you are paid much less , you know you are a #2.

#2 only has a chance at the championship if the team is dominant. Hard to see Red Bull in the next two years being dominant.

Also, it is tough to be #2 to a so much younger driver. If your a #2 to an older or similar age driver, then your turn may come.

From all reports, he was quite desperate to leave.

well, according to a recent interview with Horner, he wasn't going to be paid less. Horner claims they offered him everything he asked for:

"We gave Daniel everything he wanted and asked for and it still wasn’t enough.

"We were even prepared to do a one-year agreement so he was available to Ferrari or Mercedes should they come knocking in 12 months’ time.

"It wasn’t about money or status, commitment or duration. I think he felt 'I need to take something else on in this stage of my career'. It might be an inspired choice, it might be one that he regrets."


http://www.f1i.com/news/313646-verstappen-strength-large-part-ricciardos-decision-horner.html


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:59 am 
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Zoue wrote:
iano wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Anyway back on topic. Good move by Dan, if Red Bull weren't going to match Maxs deal then he shouldn't stick around; whether he was treated as a number two or not he'd probably feel that way.

If you are paid much less , you know you are a #2.

#2 only has a chance at the championship if the team is dominant. Hard to see Red Bull in the next two years being dominant.

Also, it is tough to be #2 to a so much younger driver. If your a #2 to an older or similar age driver, then your turn may come.

From all reports, he was quite desperate to leave.

well, according to a recent interview with Horner, he wasn't going to be paid less. Horner claims they offered him everything he asked for:

"We gave Daniel everything he wanted and asked for and it still wasn’t enough.

"We were even prepared to do a one-year agreement so he was available to Ferrari or Mercedes should they come knocking in 12 months’ time.

"It wasn’t about money or status, commitment or duration. I think he felt 'I need to take something else on in this stage of my career'. It might be an inspired choice, it might be one that he regrets."


http://www.f1i.com/news/313646-verstappen-strength-large-part-ricciardos-decision-horner.html


Conflicting information then because earlier in the thread we were told that he wanted the same money as Max and they said no.... so which is it? And how much is Max on? Someone said $20m earlier in the thread but I don't believe that, he was on $2m or something before, he hasn't done enough to get 10x his salary yet.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:01 am 
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ALESI wrote:
Zoue wrote:
iano wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Anyway back on topic. Good move by Dan, if Red Bull weren't going to match Maxs deal then he shouldn't stick around; whether he was treated as a number two or not he'd probably feel that way.

If you are paid much less , you know you are a #2.

#2 only has a chance at the championship if the team is dominant. Hard to see Red Bull in the next two years being dominant.

Also, it is tough to be #2 to a so much younger driver. If your a #2 to an older or similar age driver, then your turn may come.

From all reports, he was quite desperate to leave.

well, according to a recent interview with Horner, he wasn't going to be paid less. Horner claims they offered him everything he asked for:

"We gave Daniel everything he wanted and asked for and it still wasn’t enough.

"We were even prepared to do a one-year agreement so he was available to Ferrari or Mercedes should they come knocking in 12 months’ time.

"It wasn’t about money or status, commitment or duration. I think he felt 'I need to take something else on in this stage of my career'. It might be an inspired choice, it might be one that he regrets."


http://www.f1i.com/news/313646-verstappen-strength-large-part-ricciardos-decision-horner.html


Conflicting information then because earlier in the thread we were told that he wanted the same money as Max and they said no.... so which is it? And how much is Max on? Someone said $20m earlier in the thread but I don't believe that, he was on $2m or something before, he hasn't done enough to get 10x his salary yet.

I think the claim that he wasn't offered the money was speculation, whereas this is direct from the horse's mouth that they did. Not that I necessarily believe everything Horner says, but it's a bit of a bold claim that could easily be debunked by Ricciardo if any of it is untrue.

Until we get one of the parties involved come out and say that Ricciardo wasn't offered what he wanted, I think Horner's words need to be taken at face value. Which makes the claims that Ricciardo wasn't getting equal money to Max, or that the latter was getting preferential treatment, untrue. Given that we've had both Horner and Zak Brown say that Ricciardo seemed desperate for a change, you have to wonder exactly why that was if not for the obvious financial or equal treatment reasons. Something must have happened to make him so unhappy with Red Bull


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:07 am 
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Zoue wrote:
I think the claim that he wasn't offered the money was speculation, whereas this is direct from the horse's mouth that they did. ......

Until we get one of the parties involved come out and say that Ricciardo wasn't offered what he wanted, I think Horner's words need to be taken at face value. Which makes the claims that Ricciardo wasn't getting equal money to Max, or that the latter was getting preferential treatment, untrue. Given that we've had both Horner and Zak Brown say that Ricciardo seemed desperate for a change, you have to wonder exactly why that was if not for the obvious financial or equal treatment reasons. Something must have happened to make him so unhappy with Red Bull


To me, it is still not exactly from the horses mouth "we offered Ricciardo a contract matching that we have with Verstappen". Horner did say they offered "him what he wanted", but clearly that is inaccurate- as if what he really wanted was at Red Bull he would still be there. There is clearly something he wanted that they were not offering. Could it be he never came out and clearly said what he wanted? Perhaps I guess. Or, perhaps more likely, what they offered as being "this delivers what you asked for" did not feel to Ricciardo to be delivering what he was after.

We unlikely to be sure until the current contract is over what Ricciardo really feels. Hard to believe the statements on Baku are really what Ricciardo feels, so I suspect his feelings will be private until at least the end of the contract....but maybe even longer.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:23 am 
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iano wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I think the claim that he wasn't offered the money was speculation, whereas this is direct from the horse's mouth that they did. ......

Until we get one of the parties involved come out and say that Ricciardo wasn't offered what he wanted, I think Horner's words need to be taken at face value. Which makes the claims that Ricciardo wasn't getting equal money to Max, or that the latter was getting preferential treatment, untrue. Given that we've had both Horner and Zak Brown say that Ricciardo seemed desperate for a change, you have to wonder exactly why that was if not for the obvious financial or equal treatment reasons. Something must have happened to make him so unhappy with Red Bull


To me, it is still not exactly from the horses mouth "we offered Ricciardo a contract matching that we have with Verstappen". Horner did say they offered "him what he wanted", but clearly that is inaccurate- as if what he really wanted was at Red Bull he would still be there. There is clearly something he wanted that they were not offering. Could it be he never came out and clearly said what he wanted? Perhaps I guess. Or, perhaps more likely, what they offered as being "this delivers what you asked for" did not feel to Ricciardo to be delivering what he was after.

We unlikely to be sure until the current contract is over what Ricciardo really feels. Hard to believe the statements on Baku are really what Ricciardo feels, so I suspect his feelings will be private until at least the end of the contract....but maybe even longer.

I don't know, it would be interesting to see the whole thing, as the article clearly states that they e.g. also offered equal treatment, while the short quote doesn't specifically state that. But the interview was apparently wide-ranging (I don't have access to the podcast itself) so much more must have been said. Has anyone seen the full podcast?

I think it's easy to look for shadows but Occam's Razor suggests the most straightforward explanation is likely to be the real one. And if we take the article at face value, coupled with the comments from Zak Brown, it seems clear that Ricciardo had no real intention of staying at Red Bull and was desperate to get out. Which likely means that any negotiations he had with them were a backup plan in case it didn't work out with Renault or McLaren. Which in turn means that even if they did offer everything he "wanted," the one thing he truly wanted they couldn't give him, which was an exit. Only question remaining is why.

Reminds me in many ways of the Hamilton story. McLaren reportedly offered him everything he wanted, including the highest pay of anyone at the time, but he still wanted out. Sometimes it's not in the team's hands.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:37 am 
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Just curiosity here, but if RB decide on Sainz for the drive, what's the chance he and Daniel switch teams this year?

I'd imagine RB would be keen, because it would keep Dan out of the loop on future RB developments. And Renault ... well, they get Dan six months early.

Would it affect WDC and WCC standings though? I think RB are well clear of Renault anyway, just wondering about the points already accumulated.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:26 am 
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[/quote]
Which in turn means that even if they did offer everything he "wanted," the one thing he truly wanted they couldn't give him, which was an exit. Only question remaining is why.

[/quote]

I think that way should be a What.
What couldn't rbr give Riccardo that he wanted.

two things spring to mind.

1. a championship winning car... which I think Riccardo knows redbull wont have next year and most likely they year after and

2. The chance to be a full blown number one driver and have a team truely build around him.
Riccardo may have gotten equal status at rbr but perhaps that wasn't enough...
He's one of five drivers on the current grid spoken about as being one of the "elite" amongst the current crop. Maybe he didn't want equal split at a team anymore and felt that he has proven himself enough that he should/can/wants the chance to run with a team that will spend a good couple of years building around him?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:34 am 
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I think as soon as Christian told the media that Max should build the team around him Daniel was looking for an out, what hope do you have when your boss says something like that, there is only one option and that is to leave and seek alternative arrangements.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:38 am 
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Glasnost wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Which in turn means that even if they did offer everything he "wanted," the one thing he truly wanted they couldn't give him, which was an exit. Only question remaining is why.



I think that way should be a What.
What couldn't rbr give Riccardo that he wanted.

two things spring to mind.

1. a championship winning car... which I think Riccardo knows redbull wont have next year and most likely they year after and

2. The chance to be a full blown number one driver and have a team truely build around him.
Riccardo may have gotten equal status at rbr but perhaps that wasn't enough...
He's one of five drivers on the current grid spoken about as being one of the "elite" amongst the current crop. Maybe he didn't want equal split at a team anymore and felt that he has proven himself enough that he should/can/wants the chance to run with a team that will spend a good couple of years building around him?

1. Possible, although I really struggle to see how anyone would put Renault above Red Bull in the potential title-winning stakes. Assuming that's true, my guess would be that Ricciardo has no faith in Honda and thinks the partnership was a mistake. Maybe he argued against it and is upset that he wasn't listened to (speculation alert!)?

2. Sounds plausible. Maybe he feels that his best chance is not to have the team focus split but to have a team built around him only


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:39 am 
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aftershocksinthebath wrote:
I think as soon as Christian told the media that Max should build the team around him Daniel was looking for an out, what hope do you have when your boss says something like that, there is only one option and that is to leave and seek alternative arrangements.

One option? How about getting your head down and proving to them that you're the better bet?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:10 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
aftershocksinthebath wrote:
I think as soon as Christian told the media that Max should build the team around him Daniel was looking for an out, what hope do you have when your boss says something like that, there is only one option and that is to leave and seek alternative arrangements.

One option? How about getting your head down and proving to them that you're the better bet?


I am pretty sure he had proven it when Christian this to the media. Are you gonna continue to perform when your boss outright says your co-worker is the way forward? I wouldn't I'd find someone else who appreciated me.

I am also sure Webber and Vettel days rang in Ricciardo's mind. What RB say and what RB do are different.

Edit: Grammar

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:17 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
aftershocksinthebath wrote:
I think as soon as Christian told the media that Max should build the team around him Daniel was looking for an out, what hope do you have when your boss says something like that, there is only one option and that is to leave and seek alternative arrangements.

One option? How about getting your head down and proving to them that you're the better bet?
At first glance that is indeed also an option. But it seems to me he has already proved that more than one season. This very season he has been schooling Verstappen in the fine art of becoming a top F1 driver.

I don't know what the age spread of Red Bull's advertising target group is, but perhaps they believe a nearly 30-year old is far too old to impress, say, 14-year olds?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:43 pm 
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red_alert wrote:
Zoue wrote:
aftershocksinthebath wrote:
I think as soon as Christian told the media that Max should build the team around him Daniel was looking for an out, what hope do you have when your boss says something like that, there is only one option and that is to leave and seek alternative arrangements.

One option? How about getting your head down and proving to them that you're the better bet?


I am pretty sure he had proven it when Christian this to the media. Are you gonna continue to perform when your boss outright says your co-worker is the way forward? I wouldn't I'd find someone else who appreciated me.

I am also sure Webber and Vettel days rang in Ricciardo's mind. What RB say and what RB do are different.

Edit: Grammar

This again. RB didn't "do" anything to Webber. He just wasn't good enough

Ricciardo may well have been put out. But memories are short in F1 and he had it within his power to change CH' mind, if that was the issue, assuming he felt he was quick enough?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:44 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Zoue wrote:
aftershocksinthebath wrote:
I think as soon as Christian told the media that Max should build the team around him Daniel was looking for an out, what hope do you have when your boss says something like that, there is only one option and that is to leave and seek alternative arrangements.

One option? How about getting your head down and proving to them that you're the better bet?
At first glance that is indeed also an option. But it seems to me he has already proved that more than one season. This very season he has been schooling Verstappen in the fine art of becoming a top F1 driver.

I don't know what the age spread of Red Bull's advertising target group is, but perhaps they believe a nearly 30-year old is far too old to impress, say, 14-year olds?

Sure, but has RB said he hasn't?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:58 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Glasnost wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Which in turn means that even if they did offer everything he "wanted," the one thing he truly wanted they couldn't give him, which was an exit. Only question remaining is why.



I think that way should be a What.
What couldn't rbr give Riccardo that he wanted.

two things spring to mind.

1. a championship winning car... which I think Riccardo knows redbull wont have next year and most likely they year after and

2. The chance to be a full blown number one driver and have a team truely build around him.
Riccardo may have gotten equal status at rbr but perhaps that wasn't enough...
He's one of five drivers on the current grid spoken about as being one of the "elite" amongst the current crop. Maybe he didn't want equal split at a team anymore and felt that he has proven himself enough that he should/can/wants the chance to run with a team that will spend a good couple of years building around him?

1. Possible, although I really struggle to see how anyone would put Renault above Red Bull in the potential title-winning stakes. Assuming that's true, my guess would be that Ricciardo has no faith in Honda and thinks the partnership was a mistake. Maybe he argued against it and is upset that he wasn't listened to (speculation alert!)?

2. Sounds plausible. Maybe he feels that his best chance is not to have the team focus split but to have a team built around him only


well I meant to suggest that if he knew redbull could give him a potentially WDC car he would have signed.. I think he knows they likely cant.. especially with a honda switch. so I think once he realised he couldn't get option 1 at Ferrari or Merc either
Option 2 became his main priority.. He's at a point where he's driving well and has proven himself.. and I think he wants what Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso and Max have... Teams prepared to build around him. I think he's had enough of the equal status and wants to take a step up as a proven lead driver... maybe he was missing the Kyviat days?

It ties in well to his dialogue about wanting something new and a different challenge. It also ties in well to the "redbull see max as their future" rhetoric.

I don't think there is one single reason in his switch to renault... I think a little bit of everything complied together led to his decision to change teams.

1.inability to get into a championship winning car
2.Rbr honda switch
3. Max's slightly better performance
4. he's at the top his hane and feels its time for a pay rise.
5.A team that is willing to focus on him as a lead driver and have what the other 5 big guns have.

all this kinda built up and he's thought..
why not.. what do I have to lose? red bull are switching to honda they probably won't give me a WDC car
Im due a pay rise, I've proven myself on the grid, why shoebox myself in equal status at a team that want another driver as their future... whats in it for me if I stay? I may as well move teams and be the king of my own sandbox.

it's just my theory though.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:18 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Zoue wrote:
aftershocksinthebath wrote:
I think as soon as Christian told the media that Max should build the team around him Daniel was looking for an out, what hope do you have when your boss says something like that, there is only one option and that is to leave and seek alternative arrangements.

One option? How about getting your head down and proving to them that you're the better bet?
At first glance that is indeed also an option. But it seems to me he has already proved that more than one season. This very season he has been schooling Verstappen in the fine art of becoming a top F1 driver.

I don't know what the age spread of Red Bull's advertising target group is, but perhaps they believe a nearly 30-year old is far too old to impress, say, 14-year olds?

Sure, but has RB said he hasn't?
Sorry Zoue, but hasn't what exactly?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:27 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Zoue wrote:
aftershocksinthebath wrote:
I think as soon as Christian told the media that Max should build the team around him Daniel was looking for an out, what hope do you have when your boss says something like that, there is only one option and that is to leave and seek alternative arrangements.

One option? How about getting your head down and proving to them that you're the better bet?
At first glance that is indeed also an option. But it seems to me he has already proved that more than one season. This very season he has been schooling Verstappen in the fine art of becoming a top F1 driver.

I don't know what the age spread of Red Bull's advertising target group is, but perhaps they believe a nearly 30-year old is far too old to impress, say, 14-year olds?

Sure, but has RB said he hasn't?
Sorry Zoue, but hasn't what exactly?

Sorry, I should have been clearer. What I meant to say was that he may have done exactly as you said, but it's not as though RB have said otherwise. If Horner is to be believed, they offered him everything he asked for, including equal status with Max, which suggests that he has indeed shown he is at least as good a bet as Max, which in turn negates the point aftershocksinthebath was making.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:35 pm 
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Glasnost wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Glasnost wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Which in turn means that even if they did offer everything he "wanted," the one thing he truly wanted they couldn't give him, which was an exit. Only question remaining is why.



I think that way should be a What.
What couldn't rbr give Riccardo that he wanted.

two things spring to mind.

1. a championship winning car... which I think Riccardo knows redbull wont have next year and most likely they year after and

2. The chance to be a full blown number one driver and have a team truely build around him.
Riccardo may have gotten equal status at rbr but perhaps that wasn't enough...
He's one of five drivers on the current grid spoken about as being one of the "elite" amongst the current crop. Maybe he didn't want equal split at a team anymore and felt that he has proven himself enough that he should/can/wants the chance to run with a team that will spend a good couple of years building around him?

1. Possible, although I really struggle to see how anyone would put Renault above Red Bull in the potential title-winning stakes. Assuming that's true, my guess would be that Ricciardo has no faith in Honda and thinks the partnership was a mistake. Maybe he argued against it and is upset that he wasn't listened to (speculation alert!)?

2. Sounds plausible. Maybe he feels that his best chance is not to have the team focus split but to have a team built around him only


well I meant to suggest that if he knew redbull could give him a potentially WDC car he would have signed.. I think he knows they likely cant.. especially with a honda switch. so I think once he realised he couldn't get option 1 at Ferrari or Merc either
Option 2 became his main priority.. He's at a point where he's driving well and has proven himself.. and I think he wants what Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso and Max have... Teams prepared to build around him. I think he's had enough of the equal status and wants to take a step up as a proven lead driver... maybe he was missing the Kyviat days?

It ties in well to his dialogue about wanting something new and a different challenge. It also ties in well to the "redbull see max as their future" rhetoric.

I don't think there is one single reason in his switch to renault... I think a little bit of everything complied together led to his decision to change teams.

1.inability to get into a championship winning car
2.Rbr honda switch
3. Max's slightly better performance
4. he's at the top his hane and feels its time for a pay rise.
5.A team that is willing to focus on him as a lead driver and have what the other 5 big guns have.

all this kinda built up and he's thought..
why not.. what do I have to lose? red bull are switching to honda they probably won't give me a WDC car
Im due a pay rise, I've proven myself on the grid, why shoebox myself in equal status at a team that want another driver as their future... whats in it for me if I stay? I may as well move teams and be the king of my own sandbox.

it's just my theory though.


This sums it all up. Very well said!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:11 pm 
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In all honesty - and saying this as pretty much a fan of Ricciardo, after Alonso and Leclerc - I think he left to get away from Max. Whether Max is genuinely faster, he's being given preferential treatment by the team, or a mixture of the two has simply gotten into Ricciardo's head and he's no longer performing at 100%, the fact is that Max is outperforming Daniel quite badly in qualifying this year, and that's something people notice.

He needs to get away from Max if he's still going to be considered one of the Big Five (indeed, if he wants the Big Five to continue to exist instead of shrinking to a Big Four). He knows that when he beat Vettel, Seb left for another team and looked strong there and 2014 has become just a footnote on his career instead of defining him. He hopes to do the same at Renault, escaping a direct comparison to Max and rebuilding his status as a top driver elsewhere. He certainly hopes that Renault will out-develop Red Bull in the near future, but I don't actually think that's his driving motive for leaving.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:05 am 
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I do think getting away from Max is probably a big part of the decision.

But not because Dan thought he couldn’t beat him. More because Red Bull have shown themselves to favour Max when it counts.

Giving Max an extension and a big pay rise and openly stating Max could build the team around himself was a bit of a giveaway...

Siding with Max when there were collisions or disagreements also probably showed their hand.

I’d say Dan saw the opportunity to be number 1 at another team and took it. He was never going to be supported ahead of Max at Red Bull, so that’s a problem in fighting for a title itself.

Dan has lost a few races due to Red Bull’s mistakes and favouring Max on strategy, I’d say this decision has been building for some time.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:15 am 
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oz_karter wrote:
I do think getting away from Max is probably a big part of the decision.

But not because Dan thought he couldn’t beat him. More because Red Bull have shown themselves to favour Max when it counts.

Giving Max an extension and a big pay rise and openly stating Max could build the team around himself was a bit of a giveaway...

Siding with Max when there were collisions or disagreements also probably showed their hand.

I’d say Dan saw the opportunity to be number 1 at another team and took it. He was never going to be supported ahead of Max at Red Bull, so that’s a problem in fighting for a title itself.

Dan has lost a few races due to Red Bull’s mistakes and favouring Max on strategy, I’d say this decision has been building for some time.

BIB: I'm not sure that's a giveaway of anything other than that they valued Max's service!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:19 pm 
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oz_karter wrote:
I do think getting away from Max is probably a big part of the decision.

But not because Dan thought he couldn’t beat him. More because Red Bull have shown themselves to favour Max when it counts.

Giving Max an extension and a big pay rise and openly stating Max could build the team around himself was a bit of a giveaway...

Siding with Max when there were collisions or disagreements also probably showed their hand.

I’d say Dan saw the opportunity to be number 1 at another team and took it. He was never going to be supported ahead of Max at Red Bull, so that’s a problem in fighting for a title itself.

Dan has lost a few races due to Red Bull’s mistakes and favouring Max on strategy, I’d say this decision has been building for some time.


Since Baku maybe..?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:31 pm 
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Yellowbin74 wrote:
oz_karter wrote:
I do think getting away from Max is probably a big part of the decision.

But not because Dan thought he couldn’t beat him. More because Red Bull have shown themselves to favour Max when it counts.

Giving Max an extension and a big pay rise and openly stating Max could build the team around himself was a bit of a giveaway...

Siding with Max when there were collisions or disagreements also probably showed their hand.

I’d say Dan saw the opportunity to be number 1 at another team and took it. He was never going to be supported ahead of Max at Red Bull, so that’s a problem in fighting for a title itself.

Dan has lost a few races due to Red Bull’s mistakes and favouring Max on strategy, I’d say this decision has been building for some time.


Since Baku maybe..?


Maybe this is a touch of Pareidolia here but the similarities, until very recently, between the Webber - Vettel and the Riccardo - Verstappen partnerships have been eerily similar.

Race crashes & team comments ( Baku, Turkey), general comments from senior team personnel. Quite a sense of deja vu.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:31 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Yellowbin74 wrote:
oz_karter wrote:
I do think getting away from Max is probably a big part of the decision.

But not because Dan thought he couldn’t beat him. More because Red Bull have shown themselves to favour Max when it counts.

Giving Max an extension and a big pay rise and openly stating Max could build the team around himself was a bit of a giveaway...

Siding with Max when there were collisions or disagreements also probably showed their hand.

I’d say Dan saw the opportunity to be number 1 at another team and took it. He was never going to be supported ahead of Max at Red Bull, so that’s a problem in fighting for a title itself.

Dan has lost a few races due to Red Bull’s mistakes and favouring Max on strategy, I’d say this decision has been building for some time.


Since Baku maybe..?


Maybe this is a touch of Pareidolia here but the similarities, until very recently, between the Webber - Vettel and the Riccardo - Verstappen partnerships have been eerily similar.

Race crashes & team comments ( Baku, Turkey), general comments from senior team personnel. Quite a sense of deja vu.


You think they finally spotted the 'al' after the 'r' in his nationality and thought ... we fell for that again??? 8O (facepalm!)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:10 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Off topic I know, but I wonder if drivers still ski... I remember seeing Kimi and of course Michael Schumacher skiing at Ferrari events. Seems an awfully risky activity, and that's before Michael's tragic accident.


I'm sure if they want to ski they ski. Pretty sure I've seen Hamilton snowboarding on Instagram.

Hamilton has actually started taking motor bike circuit training in the off season, I believe he takes lessons from Cal Crutchlow?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:12 pm 
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iano wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Off topic I know, but I wonder if drivers still ski... I remember seeing Kimi and of course Michael Schumacher skiing at Ferrari events. Seems an awfully risky activity, and that's before Michael's tragic accident.


I'm sure if they want to ski they ski. Pretty sure I've seen Hamilton snowboarding on Instagram.

Yes, off topic, but skiing is not necessarily a risky activity, depends how risky you make it.

I've known a few people pick up injuries, broken bones.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:15 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
iano wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Anyway back on topic. Good move by Dan, if Red Bull weren't going to match Maxs deal then he shouldn't stick around; whether he was treated as a number two or not he'd probably feel that way.

If you are paid much less , you know you are a #2.

#2 only has a chance at the championship if the team is dominant. Hard to see Red Bull in the next two years being dominant.

Also, it is tough to be #2 to a so much younger driver. If your a #2 to an older or similar age driver, then your turn may come.

From all reports, he was quite desperate to leave.

well, according to a recent interview with Horner, he wasn't going to be paid less. Horner claims they offered him everything he asked for:

"We gave Daniel everything he wanted and asked for and it still wasn’t enough.

"We were even prepared to do a one-year agreement so he was available to Ferrari or Mercedes should they come knocking in 12 months’ time.

"It wasn’t about money or status, commitment or duration. I think he felt 'I need to take something else on in this stage of my career'. It might be an inspired choice, it might be one that he regrets."


http://www.f1i.com/news/313646-verstappen-strength-large-part-ricciardos-decision-horner.html

It does have a feel of wanting to move away from Verstappen, basically a quicker driver.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:18 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Zoue wrote:
iano wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Anyway back on topic. Good move by Dan, if Red Bull weren't going to match Maxs deal then he shouldn't stick around; whether he was treated as a number two or not he'd probably feel that way.

If you are paid much less , you know you are a #2.

#2 only has a chance at the championship if the team is dominant. Hard to see Red Bull in the next two years being dominant.

Also, it is tough to be #2 to a so much younger driver. If your a #2 to an older or similar age driver, then your turn may come.

From all reports, he was quite desperate to leave.

well, according to a recent interview with Horner, he wasn't going to be paid less. Horner claims they offered him everything he asked for:

"We gave Daniel everything he wanted and asked for and it still wasn’t enough.

"We were even prepared to do a one-year agreement so he was available to Ferrari or Mercedes should they come knocking in 12 months’ time.

"It wasn’t about money or status, commitment or duration. I think he felt 'I need to take something else on in this stage of my career'. It might be an inspired choice, it might be one that he regrets."


http://www.f1i.com/news/313646-verstappen-strength-large-part-ricciardos-decision-horner.html


Conflicting information then because earlier in the thread we were told that he wanted the same money as Max and they said no.... so which is it? And how much is Max on? Someone said $20m earlier in the thread but I don't believe that, he was on $2m or something before, he hasn't done enough to get 10x his salary yet.

Verstappen got an extended and improved contract to stave off interest from Ferrari and in particularly Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:48 pm 
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https://www.grandprix247.com/2018/07/15 ... -shake-up/

A few minutes Googling and Vettel goes from $30m a year to $60m!

So the figures are not exactly concrete, but even so.. why is Stoffel on more than Ricciardo?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:06 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
https://www.grandprix247.com/2018/07/15/2018-formula-1-drivers-salaries-set-for-shake-up/

A few minutes Googling and Vettel goes from $30m a year to $60m!

So the figures are not exactly concrete, but even so.. why is Stoffel on more than Ricciardo?


I don’t think those figures are anywhere near accurate.

Maybe some of the drivers are getting close to those numbers with race win bonuses, etc.

Kimi, for one, was on a 7M or 8M per year deal i thought? With performance based bonuses. This seems to be part of the reason they can afford Vettel but weren’t prepared to pay Ricciardo what he wanted.

I think Max’s salary is correct there - 10M. I also think this is probably what Red Bull were offering Ricciardo.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:06 am 
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ALESI wrote:
https://www.grandprix247.com/2018/07/15/2018-formula-1-drivers-salaries-set-for-shake-up/

A few minutes Googling and Vettel goes from $30m a year to $60m!

So the figures are not exactly concrete, but even so.. why is Stoffel on more than Ricciardo?

I have this message from Vettel ... "Can you please google me a few minutes more."


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:12 am 
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oz_karter wrote:

I don’t think those figures are anywhere near accurate.

Maybe some of the drivers are getting close to those numbers with race win bonuses, etc.

Kimi, for one, was on a 7M or 8M per year deal i thought? With performance based bonuses. This seems to be part of the reason they can afford Vettel but weren’t prepared to pay Ricciardo what he wanted.

I think Max’s salary is correct there - 10M. I also think this is probably what Red Bull were offering Ricciardo.

It you take all that is said as true(and that Horner actually said he was offered same as Verstappen which may not be exactly what he said) ..... then it is possible to interpret Ricciardo as being offered the same as Verstappen, or less than Verstappen, depending on how you read the clauses and conditions. Which why there are different answers from people who should know, and perhaps even from the same people. It may depend on the impression they desire to give at the time.


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