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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:50 am 
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Had a bit of a thought the other night during one of my more reflective and circumspect moments and would like to get some thoughts on this.

There's always ongoing talk of the safety car not being fast enough for the cars and thus affecting heat generation in the brakes and tyres.

So how about, after the safety car pulls off the circuit, the pack does an additional lap with the lead driver acting as the safety car. It basically becomes the same as the warm up lap at the start of the race. The lead car can drive at speed for 2/3 of the lap allowing the tyres and brakes to get up to operational temps. The final 1/3 of the lap remains as it is now. The pack closes up and the lead driver decides when to pull the pin.

It's so simple i'm sure it's been suggested before but I can't remember it being raised or the points that count against it.

Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:01 am 
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I don't get the safety car at all, when I think about it. Just put out a red flag, the cars all come into the pitlane and stop.

- Parc ferme conditions
- Anyone wishing to make alterations or change tyres has to go to the back of the queue.
- When the track is clear, one warm up lap at a controlled VSC speed but faster than a normal SC.
- Green light at the normal SC line

Safer, easier and quicker for the marshals and drivers. No racing laps wasted doing pointless SC laps.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:24 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Had a bit of a thought the other night during one of my more reflective and circumspect moments and would like to get some thoughts on this.

There's always ongoing talk of the safety car not being fast enough for the cars and thus affecting heat generation in the brakes and tyres.

So how about, after the safety car pulls off the circuit, the pack does an additional lap with the lead driver acting as the safety car. It basically becomes the same as the warm up lap at the start of the race. The lead car can drive at speed for 2/3 of the lap allowing the tyres and brakes to get up to operational temps. The final 1/3 of the lap remains as it is now. The pack closes up and the lead driver decides when to pull the pin.

It's so simple i'm sure it's been suggested before but I can't remember it being raised or the points that count against it.

Thoughts?

It'll be an extra lap off the racing total and what issues have there been other than complaints by drivers? Don't think it would be beneficial to be honest.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:26 am 
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Banana Man wrote:
I don't get the safety car at all, when I think about it. Just put out a red flag, the cars all come into the pitlane and stop.

- Parc ferme conditions
- Anyone wishing to make alterations or change tyres has to go to the back of the queue.
- When the track is clear, one warm up lap at a controlled VSC speed but faster than a normal SC.
- Green light at the normal SC line

Safer, easier and quicker for the marshals and drivers. No racing laps wasted doing pointless SC laps.

Main issue with this is the amount of time with no cars on track, the cars wouldn't be back to racing as soon due to them having to shut down the cars, deal with them and restart them. If it was simple to just pull up, stop them, jump out, jump in restart and drive out it may work, though with the seatbelts and sensitivity of the cars it's just too complicated.
If this was an easy solution I expect they'd red flag more races already


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:58 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Had a bit of a thought the other night during one of my more reflective and circumspect moments and would like to get some thoughts on this.

There's always ongoing talk of the safety car not being fast enough for the cars and thus affecting heat generation in the brakes and tyres.

So how about, after the safety car pulls off the circuit, the pack does an additional lap with the lead driver acting as the safety car. It basically becomes the same as the warm up lap at the start of the race. The lead car can drive at speed for 2/3 of the lap allowing the tyres and brakes to get up to operational temps. The final 1/3 of the lap remains as it is now. The pack closes up and the lead driver decides when to pull the pin.

It's so simple i'm sure it's been suggested before but I can't remember it being raised or the points that count against it.

Thoughts?

I don't think it's such a big problem that it necessitates the cars doing yet another slow lap, it's already bad the amount of extra laps for cars to unlap themselves.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:01 am 
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dompclarke wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
I don't get the safety car at all, when I think about it. Just put out a red flag, the cars all come into the pitlane and stop.

- Parc ferme conditions
- Anyone wishing to make alterations or change tyres has to go to the back of the queue.
- When the track is clear, one warm up lap at a controlled VSC speed but faster than a normal SC.
- Green light at the normal SC line

Safer, easier and quicker for the marshals and drivers. No racing laps wasted doing pointless SC laps.

Main issue with this is the amount of time with no cars on track, the cars wouldn't be back to racing as soon due to them having to shut down the cars, deal with them and restart them. If it was simple to just pull up, stop them, jump out, jump in restart and drive out it may work, though with the seatbelts and sensitivity of the cars it's just too complicated.
If this was an easy solution I expect they'd red flag more races already


They stop and start cars pretty regularly throughout practice and qualy and it has been done several times in the past. I'm sure you can get a car ready to go again with 5 minutes warning.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:10 am 
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I thought there was talk some time ago of having a 'START' button be a mandatory element... it's always struck me as ludicrous that you need a laptop to start these 'cars'.

Perhaps if F1 are serious about their green credentials they could incorporate the Stop/Go tech from roadcars, hence they would all stop on the grid and turn off and then start again when they press the accelerator.

Obviously they would have to play a recording of proper racing cars revving up through the PA to appease the fans at the track...

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:22 am 
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Banana Man wrote:
I don't get the safety car at all, when I think about it. Just put out a red flag, the cars all come into the pitlane and stop.

- Parc ferme conditions
- Anyone wishing to make alterations or change tyres has to go to the back of the queue.
- When the track is clear, one warm up lap at a controlled VSC speed but faster than a normal SC.
- Green light at the normal SC line

Safer, easier and quicker for the marshals and drivers. No racing laps wasted doing pointless SC laps.

I think the idea is to get the race over in a reasonable time, when talk is of today's generation not having the attention span to watch a 90 min to 2 hour race I don't think your idea will countenance much support?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:38 am 
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The current safety car situation gathers up the field quickly so the track workers can do their job. Any faster "safety car" like the leading race car will gather the field, too, but it will take longer. which may cause delays in getting the medical car to a crash location.

Drivers always complain about safety cars. Let them complain and deal with it. At least all drivers deal with the same problem. Allow the leading racecar to pace the field, and some driver will always complain that the pace disadvantages them.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:08 pm 
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MB-BOB wrote:
The current safety car situation gathers up the field quickly so the track workers can do their job. Any faster "safety car" like the leading race car will gather the field, too, but it will take longer. which may cause delays in getting the medical car to a crash location.

Drivers always complain about safety cars. Let them complain and deal with it. At least all drivers deal with the same problem. Allow the leading racecar to pace the field, and some driver will always complain that the pace disadvantages them.


I'm not saying for the entire safety car period, just an additional lap, at warm up lap speed, after the safety car pulls off the track.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:19 pm 
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I'm not sure I know of that many drivers who complain about the speed, except for Hamilton. But I think that's because it's simply in his checklist: - moan about SC speed. :D

I think that if temperature build-up can be achieved in half a lap, it might be simpler to take the SC off track at a convenient place on a straight (or alternatively letting the whole of the field by), and commence the speed build-up behind the leader. The extra lap the OP's idea requires is to my mind the biggest disadvantage to the scheme, as evey lap lost makes it less of a "Grand" Prix in my eyes. But then, I don't see the need for any "Safety" Car in the first place, so all the laps that are run behind it are simply thrown away for both drivers and the fans.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:24 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
I don't get the safety car at all, when I think about it. Just put out a red flag, the cars all come into the pitlane and stop.

- Parc ferme conditions
- Anyone wishing to make alterations or change tyres has to go to the back of the queue.
- When the track is clear, one warm up lap at a controlled VSC speed but faster than a normal SC.
- Green light at the normal SC line

Safer, easier and quicker for the marshals and drivers. No racing laps wasted doing pointless SC laps.

I think the idea is to get the race over in a reasonable time, when talk is of today's generation not having the attention span to watch a 90 min to 2 hour race I don't think your idea will countenance much support?


With a red flag and a clear track, I think most accidents could be cleared within 5 minutes or so. Anyone who can watch a 10 minute safety car can watch a 5-10 minute break for a red flag and restart, especially given the adverts and replays most TV coverage includes.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:37 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
I don't get the safety car at all, when I think about it. Just put out a red flag, the cars all come into the pitlane and stop.

- Parc ferme conditions
- Anyone wishing to make alterations or change tyres has to go to the back of the queue.
- When the track is clear, one warm up lap at a controlled VSC speed but faster than a normal SC.
- Green light at the normal SC line

Safer, easier and quicker for the marshals and drivers. No racing laps wasted doing pointless SC laps.

I think the idea is to get the race over in a reasonable time, when talk is of today's generation not having the attention span to watch a 90 min to 2 hour race I don't think your idea will countenance much support?


With a red flag and a clear track, I think most accidents could be cleared within 5 minutes or so. Anyone who can watch a 10 minute safety car can watch a 5-10 minute break for a red flag and restart, especially given the adverts and replays most TV coverage includes.

But with a safety car you never know when it will switch off the lights and theres the tactical play of who pits and who doesn't at the start, meaning you can't disappear if you don't want to miss anything. With a red flag you get a set time where casual fans may wander off and get distracted which is not good for a sport wanting more fans...


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:39 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
I don't get the safety car at all, when I think about it. Just put out a red flag, the cars all come into the pitlane and stop.

- Parc ferme conditions
- Anyone wishing to make alterations or change tyres has to go to the back of the queue.
- When the track is clear, one warm up lap at a controlled VSC speed but faster than a normal SC.
- Green light at the normal SC line

Safer, easier and quicker for the marshals and drivers. No racing laps wasted doing pointless SC laps.

I think the idea is to get the race over in a reasonable time, when talk is of today's generation not having the attention span to watch a 90 min to 2 hour race I don't think your idea will countenance much support?


With a red flag and a clear track, I think most accidents could be cleared within 5 minutes or so. Anyone who can watch a 10 minute safety car can watch a 5-10 minute break for a red flag and restart, especially given the adverts and replays most TV coverage includes.

A 10 minute break adds 10 minutes on to the race, also in races we sometimes have multiple SC's, who wants to watch races that are continually stop/start, at least the SC allows a certain flow to the race.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:45 pm 
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If the issue is with tyre temperature, won't this become a moot point if the new regulations exclude the use of tyre blankets? I don't know where this stands at present but it was one of the items that came up.
In response to cars that may be started without an external hookup I have assumed that this is simply to save the weight of an additional battery - it takes some juice to fire up one of those engines.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:15 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
If the issue is with tyre temperature, won't this become a moot point if the new regulations exclude the use of tyre blankets? I don't know where this stands at present but it was one of the items that came up.
In response to cars that may be started without an external hookup I have assumed that this is simply to save the weight of an additional battery - it takes some juice to fire up one of those engines.

The car's have enough battery on them now because of the energy systems for the hybrids.
Good point on the tyre blanket ban, makes this idea unnecessary if it actually makes it into the rules!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:47 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
If the issue is with tyre temperature, won't this become a moot point if the new regulations exclude the use of tyre blankets? I don't know where this stands at present but it was one of the items that came up.
In response to cars that may be started without an external hookup I have assumed that this is simply to save the weight of an additional battery - it takes some juice to fire up one of those engines.

The car's have enough battery on them now because of the energy systems for the hybrids.
Good point on the tyre blanket ban, makes this idea unnecessary if it actually makes it into the rules!

Yeah is this not for 2020 when we also have the low profile tyres?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:27 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
I don't get the safety car at all, when I think about it. Just put out a red flag, the cars all come into the pitlane and stop.

- Parc ferme conditions
- Anyone wishing to make alterations or change tyres has to go to the back of the queue.
- When the track is clear, one warm up lap at a controlled VSC speed but faster than a normal SC.
- Green light at the normal SC line

Safer, easier and quicker for the marshals and drivers. No racing laps wasted doing pointless SC laps.


With safety car, atleast you will get precious Grosjean or Vettel/Lewis moments like in Baku 8O. With cars in the pits, we will be devoid of such entertainment :D

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:02 am 
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Fiki wrote:
I'm not sure I know of that many drivers who complain about the speed, except for Hamilton. But I think that's because it's simply in his checklist: - moan about SC speed. :D

I think that if temperature build-up can be achieved in half a lap, it might be simpler to take the SC off track at a convenient place on a straight (or alternatively letting the whole of the field by), and commence the speed build-up behind the leader. The extra lap the OP's idea requires is to my mind the biggest disadvantage to the scheme, as evey lap lost makes it less of a "Grand" Prix in my eyes. But then, I don't see the need for any "Safety" Car in the first place, so all the laps that are run behind it are simply thrown away for both drivers and the fans.


If the SC came off half way around how would it get back to the pits?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:03 am 
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MB-BOB wrote:
The current safety car situation gathers up the field quickly so the track workers can do their job. Any faster "safety car" like the leading race car will gather the field, too, but it will take longer. which may cause delays in getting the medical car to a crash location.

Drivers always complain about safety cars. Let them complain and deal with it. At least all drivers deal with the same problem. Allow the leading racecar to pace the field, and some driver will always complain that the pace disadvantages them.


Not really, you can drive a very fast car slowly if required. The point is once the car has gathered up the pack then it can go faster and keep the tyres warm.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:04 am 
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ALESI wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
The current safety car situation gathers up the field quickly so the track workers can do their job. Any faster "safety car" like the leading race car will gather the field, too, but it will take longer. which may cause delays in getting the medical car to a crash location.

Drivers always complain about safety cars. Let them complain and deal with it. At least all drivers deal with the same problem. Allow the leading racecar to pace the field, and some driver will always complain that the pace disadvantages them.


Not really, you can drive a very fast car slowly if required. The point is once the car has gathered up the pack then it can go faster and keep the tyres warm.

that may create another problem in that it reduces the time that Marshalls may work safely in the affected area, as one of the purposes of the SC is to create longer periods of time where a section of the track has no cars on it


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:22 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I'm not sure I know of that many drivers who complain about the speed, except for Hamilton. But I think that's because it's simply in his checklist: - moan about SC speed. :D

I think that if temperature build-up can be achieved in half a lap, it might be simpler to take the SC off track at a convenient place on a straight (or alternatively letting the whole of the field by), and commence the speed build-up behind the leader. The extra lap the OP's idea requires is to my mind the biggest disadvantage to the scheme, as evey lap lost makes it less of a "Grand" Prix in my eyes. But then, I don't see the need for any "Safety" Car in the first place, so all the laps that are run behind it are simply thrown away for both drivers and the fans.


If the SC came off half way around how would it get back to the pits?
Very quickly! :D

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:06 pm 
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Real Drivers can deal with COLD Tires. The Prima Donna's in F1 can't. What does that say?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:30 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I'm not sure I know of that many drivers who complain about the speed, except for Hamilton. But I think that's because it's simply in his checklist: - moan about SC speed. :D

I think that if temperature build-up can be achieved in half a lap, it might be simpler to take the SC off track at a convenient place on a straight (or alternatively letting the whole of the field by), and commence the speed build-up behind the leader. The extra lap the OP's idea requires is to my mind the biggest disadvantage to the scheme, as evey lap lost makes it less of a "Grand" Prix in my eyes. But then, I don't see the need for any "Safety" Car in the first place, so all the laps that are run behind it are simply thrown away for both drivers and the fans.


If the SC came off half way around how would it get back to the pits?


Just pulls back on to the track again and drives back to the pits.

That being said, I agree with Fiki in that there should be no need for the safety car what so ever.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:37 pm 
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mmi16 wrote:
Real Drivers can deal with COLD Tires. The Prima Donna's in F1 can't. What does that say?

That you don't understand the issues with the current tyres supplied to F1?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:09 pm 
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There will still be an issue with tires even after the rule changes.
Cars will leave the pit lane on cold tires with the ideal pressures. They will have a system which will allow air pressure to escape as the tire heats up, thus maintaining pressure. Now, when the tires cools down you will loose pressure. IndyCar was doing this in the 90's.

Granted, they will have had more practice starting on cold tires.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:27 pm 
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Why would you want to fix something that isn't broken? Cold tyres and cold brakes are one of the few things that trigger excitement and racing in F1 nowadays.


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