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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 4:17 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
What circumstances are you referring to?


The ones you listed above.

I'm not following you here. The circumstances that I listed were particular to Hamilton during the window of time you were discussing. Alonso's circumstances were completely different so I'm not sure what you're talking about.


You making it seem it was a fluke but it was 4 consecutive years.


Not a fluke but just there's a lot of context missing.

2010-Cars pretty even but Lewis was marginally better but finished behind because of sharing with Button
2011-McLaren quicker but Alonso was better as Lewis has a complete one-off season crashing all the time
2012-McLaren quicker but more unreliable and Alonso only marginally better even with an ATG season and Lewis's bad luck
2013-Mercedes quicker on Saturday but Ferrari quicker on Sunday and Alonso better but Lewis was in a new team and getting used to new brakes


Lewis would've finished ahead in two of them(2010+2012) with better luck although funnily enough 2012 would imo be a bit undeserved as I felt Alonso edged it although Lewis's own season was very good. He also should've finished ahead in 2011 and that one is all on him though fair enough.

For me Alonso came out of that period 3-1 with Lewis with a bit of an asterisk as 2012 is a once in a generation season from Alonso and Lewis was actually damn close to him so it feels harsh as they were both great that year. I had it 2-2 with Seb.

So technically you could say Seb did better if you agreed with me but considering Lewis had a team switch in the middle and Seb had more of an advantage than Lewis had over Alonso as he had quicker more reliable cars and a weaker team mate, I think all things considered there wasn't much difference at all.

I think if you swapped them around you could get all manner of different scores as well though. Circumstances and conditions affect everything for a driver.

That's pretty fair although I don't think you can separate them in 2012. To me, both were basically flawless that year. Alonso, again, is made to look better due largely to his weaker and subservient teammate as well as the abysmal performance of the Mclaren braintrust that year.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:20 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah it's amazing how some drivers get credit whilst others are merely lucky.



It's funny how you can say this with a straight face, after all you have said about Vettel and what you said below!

pokerman wrote:
You know I blame Alonso for the situation he finds himself in but it's a fact that since 2009 Vettel has always had a faster car than him so saying Vettel is faster than Alonso based on that is nonsense.


But what's most ridiculous about what you said above is the fact Hamilton had a faster car than Alonso between '10 - '13 as well but didn't finish ahead of Alonso.
By this logic Hamilton is slower than Alonso right.

In 2010 Ferrari were faster in more races, 2012 I would be looking more at McLaren, 2013 the Mercedes ate tyres for fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:23 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah it's amazing how some drivers get credit whilst others are merely lucky.



It's funny how you can say this with a straight face, after all you have said about Vettel and what you said below!

pokerman wrote:
You know I blame Alonso for the situation he finds himself in but it's a fact that since 2009 Vettel has always had a faster car than him so saying Vettel is faster than Alonso based on that is nonsense.


But what's most ridiculous about what you said above is the fact Hamilton had a faster car than Alonso between '10 - '13 as well but didn't finish ahead of Alonso.
By this logic Hamilton is slower than Alonso right.


Or unluckier, less efficient and gathering points, made more mistakes etc. Can be lots of reasons why one package beats another.


The premise was Vettel had a faster car that's why he beat Alonso, I just showed Hamilton had a faster car as well but didn't get the job done.

Vettel had THE fastest car, that tends to make a difference as well especially when you're often starting from pole.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:04 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
It's funny how you can say this with a straight face, after all you have said about Vettel and what you said below!

But what's most ridiculous about what you said above is the fact Hamilton had a faster car than Alonso between '10 - '13 as well but didn't finish ahead of Alonso.
By this logic Hamilton is slower than Alonso right.


Or unluckier, less efficient and gathering points, made more mistakes etc. Can be lots of reasons why one package beats another.


The premise was Vettel had a faster car that's why he beat Alonso, I just showed Hamilton had a faster car as well but didn't get the job done.


Just "faster car" is a bit ambiguous though. Sounds as if thy had the same advantage but obviously there are degrees of faster.

He had less of an advantage than Seb had,the McLaren's were closer to the Ferrari, whatever way people actually see it in any particular year I think we can all agree the gap between Red Bull and Ferrari was larger than the one between McLaren and Ferrari in general, no?

And that's ignoring the context like race operations/reliability and team dynamic as touched on so it's not that surprising.


Of all the leading teams Redbull had the worse reliability, so I don't get the argument.

They finished Vettel, Alonso, Webber, Hamilton and Button.

That's with Hamilton crashing 2 consecutive race weekends finishing 14pts behind Vettel.

Vettel crashed into Webber and Button, Hamilton finished 14 points behind Vettel in a much inferior car, if you want to pick years for Hamilton driving poorly then 2010 wasn't one of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:08 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Of all the leading teams Redbull had the worse reliability, so I don't get the argument.

They finished Vettel, Alonso, Webber, Hamilton and Button.

That's with Hamilton crashing 2 consecutive race weekends finishing 14pts behind Vettel.


2010 I assume? I've no idea off hand if that is true about reliability but I was talking about the period in general (09-13).

On 2010 I think the RB6 was one of the best cars in recent history but Seb was maybe a touch green to get the best out of it on a consistent basis and had a few scrapes himself did he not?

I think all the top guys made errors that year but on out and out car performance I think the RB was pretty dominant while the Ferrari and McLaren swapped 2nd and 3rd most weekends and were pretty tight.

Alonso finished like that because when the Ferrari was good he'd be the one to profit 99% of the time as the No.1 at Ferrari while both the RB's and McLaren's had to share more often when their car was the star, I think the order you posted highlights that pretty well.

It's why both Mercedes and Ferrari are perfectly happy with their current arrangements as well. It just works better.

In 2010 Hamilton had fewer errors than both Alonso and Vettel. Up until the two DNFs towards the end of the year, he hadn't put a wheel wrong while Alonso and Vettel both had a comedy of errors that year.


Oh it had nothing to do with Redbull's reliability?

Outside of Turkey and Spa or the puncture on lap one at Silverstone what was the comedy of errors for Vettel?

I remember he got penalised for not keeping up with the SC which cost him a win.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:11 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah it's amazing how some drivers get credit whilst others are merely lucky.



It's funny how you can say this with a straight face, after all you have said about Vettel and what you said below!

pokerman wrote:
You know I blame Alonso for the situation he finds himself in but it's a fact that since 2009 Vettel has always had a faster car than him so saying Vettel is faster than Alonso based on that is nonsense.


But what's most ridiculous about what you said above is the fact Hamilton had a faster car than Alonso between '10 - '13 as well but didn't finish ahead of Alonso.
By this logic Hamilton is slower than Alonso right.


Or unluckier, less efficient and gathering points, made more mistakes etc. Can be lots of reasons why one package beats another.


The premise was Vettel had a faster car that's why he beat Alonso, I just showed Hamilton had a faster car as well but didn't get the job done.


Now i'm utterly confused by your thinking. Earlier in this thread you made it clear that you though a slower car couldn't beat a faster car?

I think the answer is there a degrees of faster and lots of variables. Obviously it's much easier to beat a car 1 tenth faster than yours than 1 second faster.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:29 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Coming from the guy who said he does not want the fastest car, he just wants to be 2 tenths closer to the faster car and he will do the rest.

I still can't stop laughing at folks who drink the Alonso kool aid, now he wants the fastest car like everyone else.

Let this sink in a bit the last time Alonso won a WDC, Kimi had not won won a WDC then.

He and people who believe he's quicker than Vettel live in a universe of alternate facts, in a straight pole shootout he' not getting anywhere near him.

I need to revisit what you said because I initially defended Alonso in saying that Vettel has had faster cars than Alonso but you then turned this onto Hamilton probably because I'm a Hamilton fan.

Why didn't Hamilton beat Alonso 2010-2013 when Hamilton had faster cars, I won't go down the route of refuting again which were actually the faster cars, but your measuring device was actually pole positions and on that score between 2010-2013 it was:-

Hamilton 14 Alonso 4

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:37 pm 
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Excuses is all read above, it's fun to read though yall keep it up, in this same period Button and Raikkonen as well beat Hamilton not just Alonso.

Till date Alonso has not finished ahead of Vettel not even in the worst year of his career so far 2014.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:11 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Excuses is all read above, it's fun to read though yall keep it up, in this same period Button and Raikkonen as well beat Hamilton not just Alonso.

Till date Alonso has not finished ahead of Vettel not even in the worst year of his career so far 2014.

He still had a much better car than Alonso and Alonso nearly beat him, Kimi in the other Ferrari finished 12th in the WDC.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:56 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Excuses is all read above, it's fun to read though yall keep it up, in this same period Button and Raikkonen as well beat Hamilton not just Alonso.

Till date Alonso has not finished ahead of Vettel not even in the worst year of his career so far 2014.


Yes he has.

But anyway according to you it's impossible to beat someone in a better car so it's irrelevent


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 9:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Excuses is all read above, it's fun to read though yall keep it up, in this same period Button and Raikkonen as well beat Hamilton not just Alonso.

Till date Alonso has not finished ahead of Vettel not even in the worst year of his career so far 2014.

He still had a much better car than Alonso and Alonso nearly beat him, Kimi in the other Ferrari finished 12th in the WDC.


How does Kimi finishing 12th affect Vettel finishing higher than Alonso, also almost doesn't count.

Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.


Last edited by Rockie on Thu May 24, 2018 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 9:21 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Excuses is all read above, it's fun to read though yall keep it up, in this same period Button and Raikkonen as well beat Hamilton not just Alonso.

Till date Alonso has not finished ahead of Vettel not even in the worst year of his career so far 2014.


Yes he has.

But anyway according to you it's impossible to beat someone in a better car so it's irrelevent


Well Alonso has not done that to Vettel or has he?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 10:15 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Excuses is all read above, it's fun to read though yall keep it up, in this same period Button and Raikkonen as well beat Hamilton not just Alonso.

Till date Alonso has not finished ahead of Vettel not even in the worst year of his career so far 2014.

He still had a much better car than Alonso and Alonso nearly beat him, Kimi in the other Ferrari finished 12th in the WDC.


Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.


I guess you failed something called ratios in school.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 10:25 pm 
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jrwb6e wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Excuses is all read above, it's fun to read though yall keep it up, in this same period Button and Raikkonen as well beat Hamilton not just Alonso.

Till date Alonso has not finished ahead of Vettel not even in the worst year of his career so far 2014.

He still had a much better car than Alonso and Alonso nearly beat him, Kimi in the other Ferrari finished 12th in the WDC.


Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.


I guess you failed something called ratios in school.



In this case it's percentages that will be used not ratios, but nice try. :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:51 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Excuses is all read above, it's fun to read though yall keep it up, in this same period Button and Raikkonen as well beat Hamilton not just Alonso.

Till date Alonso has not finished ahead of Vettel not even in the worst year of his career so far 2014.

He still had a much better car than Alonso and Alonso nearly beat him, Kimi in the other Ferrari finished 12th in the WDC.


Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.


I guess you failed something called ratios in school.



In this case it's percentages that will be used not ratios, but nice try. :thumbup:

Percentages and ratios are much the same thing, any way:-

2014
Alonso 161 (75%) Kimi 55 (25%) 3-1 or 18-6

2015
Vettel 278 (65%) Kimi 150 (35%) 11-6

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 12:12 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

This is flat-out false. In terms of point percentage, head-to-head, or average qualifying gap, Alonso beat Kimi by a larger margin in 2014 than Vettel did in 2015.

The only way in which Vettel beat him by a larger margin is pure points scored, which is a worthless metric to compare a season where the team scored a little over 200 points with a season where they scored over 400 points.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 1:33 am 
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IMHO it is not possible to make comparison using teammates. Because there are many variables. Kimi vs Alonso in 2014. Ferrari themselves admitted they will have to build new car for Kimi. The gap is some races was some races were 0.8 to 1sec per lap. I cannot believe how Kimi took this BS honestly.

My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.

Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 3:02 am 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.

Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.

... Vettel is a team player? Seriously?

As for Vettel being faster in qualifying, how do you figure that? They've never been teammates, and they've rarely if ever had equal cars. The comparison relative to Kimi - admittedly a questionable one due to how little the 2014 car suited him - suggests that Vettel is not faster in qualifying. Nothing aside from his raw numbers suggests that he is.

My own assessment would be:

Alonso is a slight amount faster on pure pace
Alonso is better at gaining positions off the start
Alonso has noticeably superior racecraft
Alonso is more consistent over a season, with hardly any races where he's off the pace

Vettel is better (than anyone) at opening a 2+ second gap before the DRS is activated
Vettel is better at keeping a positive atmosphere in the team
Vettel is peakier than Alonso, but may very well be faster at his peak
Vettel is a little bit faster in the wet

Both are very good at tyre management
Both are ultimately selfish, like all top drivers

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 3:45 am 
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IMO Vettel is among the best in qualifying. I think Alonso weakest part is qualifying and probably not in top5 as well. In Australia 2018 I think he made a mistake otherwise he would have probably qualified for Q3? and in general I think he is not able to get the Mclaren at top of midfield but in the race he gets into points. It could be that Mclaren is just slow and Alonso has to be at his best to get into points on Sunday. Since Mclaren got their upgrades in Spain he obviously did a great lap in Q3. But at Q2 he was almost out. I think had Hulk not had the issue with his car. Alonso would not have made it into Q3 there as well. So I am not sure Alonso is that good in qualifying.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 4:01 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.

Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.

... Vettel is a team player? Seriously?

As for Vettel being faster in qualifying, how do you figure that? They've never been teammates, and they've rarely if ever had equal cars. The comparison relative to Kimi - admittedly a questionable one due to how little the 2014 car suited him - suggests that Vettel is not faster in qualifying. Nothing aside from his raw numbers suggests that he is.

My own assessment would be:

Alonso is a slight amount faster on pure pace
Alonso is better at gaining positions off the start
Alonso has noticeably superior racecraft
Alonso is more consistent over a season, with hardly any races where he's off the pace

Vettel is better (than anyone) at opening a 2+ second gap before the DRS is activated
Vettel is better at keeping a positive atmosphere in the team
Vettel is peakier than Alonso, but may very well be faster at his peak
Vettel is a little bit faster in the wet

Both are very good at tyre management
Both are ultimately selfish, like all top drivers


Hey, this is a really interesting breakdown.

Any chance you could do this for the Hamilton match-ups against those guys? I'd also be curious about anyone else you may fancy comparing, if anyone. Maybe past greats?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 4:17 am 
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Invade wrote:
Exediron wrote:
My own assessment would be:

Alonso is a slight amount faster on pure pace
Alonso is better at gaining positions off the start
Alonso has noticeably superior racecraft
Alonso is more consistent over a season, with hardly any races where he's off the pace

Vettel is better (than anyone) at opening a 2+ second gap before the DRS is activated
Vettel is better at keeping a positive atmosphere in the team
Vettel is peakier than Alonso, but may very well be faster at his peak
Vettel is a little bit faster in the wet

Both are very good at tyre management
Both are ultimately selfish, like all top drivers

Hey, this is a really interesting breakdown.

Any chance you could do this for the Hamilton match-ups against those guys? I'd also be curious about anyone else you may fancy comparing, if anyone. Maybe past greats?

That could be an interesting idea for a thread, if people could keep it civil! :o

I might see about creating one later when I finish up something I'm working on.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 6:08 am 
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Rockie wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Excuses is all read above, it's fun to read though yall keep it up, in this same period Button and Raikkonen as well beat Hamilton not just Alonso.

Till date Alonso has not finished ahead of Vettel not even in the worst year of his career so far 2014.

He still had a much better car than Alonso and Alonso nearly beat him, Kimi in the other Ferrari finished 12th in the WDC.


Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.


I guess you failed something called ratios in school.



In this case it's percentages that will be used not ratios, but nice try. :thumbup:


So Alonso beat Kimi by a bigger margin than Vettel then?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 7:49 am 
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Kimi is probably as poor a yardstick as you can find TBF.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:03 am 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
IMHO it is not possible to make comparison using teammates. Because there are many variables. Kimi vs Alonso in 2014. Ferrari themselves admitted they will have to build new car for Kimi. The gap is some races was some races were 0.8 to 1sec per lap. I cannot believe how Kimi took this BS honestly.

My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.

Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.


Ah, I see, you throw out imperfect evidence (teammate comparisons) in order to base your assessment on no evidence at all. Very convincing ....


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:43 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.

Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.

... Vettel is a team player? Seriously?

As for Vettel being faster in qualifying, how do you figure that? They've never been teammates, and they've rarely if ever had equal cars. The comparison relative to Kimi - admittedly a questionable one due to how little the 2014 car suited him - suggests that Vettel is not faster in qualifying. Nothing aside from his raw numbers suggests that he is.

My own assessment would be:

Alonso is a slight amount faster on pure pace
Alonso is better at gaining positions off the start
Alonso has noticeably superior racecraft
Alonso is more consistent over a season, with hardly any races where he's off the pace

Vettel is better (than anyone) at opening a 2+ second gap before the DRS is activated
Vettel is better at keeping a positive atmosphere in the team
Vettel is peakier than Alonso, but may very well be faster at his peak
Vettel is a little bit faster in the wet

Both are very good at tyre management
Both are ultimately selfish, like all top drivers


Well, especially when we compare him to Alonso???? Of course


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 9:05 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.

Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.

... Vettel is a team player? Seriously?

As for Vettel being faster in qualifying, how do you figure that? They've never been teammates, and they've rarely if ever had equal cars. The comparison relative to Kimi - admittedly a questionable one due to how little the 2014 car suited him - suggests that Vettel is not faster in qualifying. Nothing aside from his raw numbers suggests that he is.

My own assessment would be:

Alonso is a slight amount faster on pure pace
Alonso is better at gaining positions off the start
Alonso has noticeably superior racecraft
Alonso is more consistent over a season, with hardly any races where he's off the pace

Vettel is better (than anyone) at opening a 2+ second gap before the DRS is activated
Vettel is better at keeping a positive atmosphere in the team
Vettel is peakier than Alonso, but may very well be faster at his peak
Vettel is a little bit faster in the wet

Both are very good at tyre management
Both are ultimately selfish, like all top drivers


Just stating I like Alonso will be better.

After questioning another poster about Vettel being faster at qualifying, then goes on to say Alonso is slightly faster on pure pace based on what exactly?

What makes Alonso more consistent over a season? in the years this myth has been put forward its based on the reliability he enjoyed during the Ferrari years.

What we have seen is he has failed to beat his team mates when both drivers have been able to drive the car optimally cue Hamilton and Trulli.

The reason Alonso detests Vettel is same as his fans sense of entitlement, they believe Alonso should be winning.

This mentality has been borne from commentators feeding it through to fans "oh what will Alonso be doing in the redbull"


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 9:11 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

This is flat-out false. In terms of point percentage, head-to-head, or average qualifying gap, Alonso beat Kimi by a larger margin in 2014 than Vettel did in 2015.

The only way in which Vettel beat him by a larger margin is pure points scored, which is a worthless metric to compare a season where the team scored a little over 200 points with a season where they scored over 400 points.


Points scored a worthless metric?

This is hilarious you do realise that the constructor points comes from both drivers in the races from their finishing positions?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 11:11 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Kimi is probably as poor a yardstick as you can find TBF.

I'm sure I'd be a worse yardstick to be fair


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 12:33 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Kimi is probably as poor a yardstick as you can find TBF.

I'm sure I'd be a worse yardstick to be fair

Well, a yardstick's purpose is to be exactly the same length regardless of steering setup, tyre characteristics, time of day or lunar position. Kimi isn't, while you'd probably be consistently truly terrible each and every time :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 3:22 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
IMHO it is not possible to make comparison using teammates. Because there are many variables. Kimi vs Alonso in 2014. Ferrari themselves admitted they will have to build new car for Kimi. The gap is some races was some races were 0.8 to 1sec per lap. I cannot believe how Kimi took this BS honestly.

My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.

Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.

Vettel being faster in qualifying is merely down to him having faster cars, Alonso beats his teammates quite comfortably in qualifying and has never been beat Like Vettel was in 2014.

Vettel is faster in the wet I guess is down to one wet race in 2008, otherwise I would say they are quite even.

On a clean track Vettel is in a league of his own, that would be true of a few drivers blessed with the fastest car, Alonso has not often had that luxury.

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Last edited by pokerman on Fri May 25, 2018 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 3:26 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

This is flat-out false. In terms of point percentage, head-to-head, or average qualifying gap, Alonso beat Kimi by a larger margin in 2014 than Vettel did in 2015.

The only way in which Vettel beat him by a larger margin is pure points scored, which is a worthless metric to compare a season where the team scored a little over 200 points with a season where they scored over 400 points.


Points scored a worthless metric?

This is hilarious you do realise that the constructor points comes from both drivers in the races from their finishing positions?

Kimi scored 3 times the amount of points in 2015 so he became 3 times a better driver against Vettel?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 4:42 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
IMHO it is not possible to make comparison using teammates. Because there are many variables. Kimi vs Alonso in 2014. Ferrari themselves admitted they will have to build new car for Kimi. The gap is some races was some races were 0.8 to 1sec per lap. I cannot believe how Kimi took this BS honestly.

My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.


Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.

Vettel being faster in qualifying is merely down to him having faster cars, Alonso beats his teammates quite comfortably in qualifying and has never been beat Like Vettel was in 2014.

Vettel is faster in the wet I guess is down to one wet race in 2008, otherwise I would say they are quite even.

On a clean track Vettel is in a league of his own, that would be true of a few drivers blessed with the fastest car, Alonso has not often had that luxury.


Even in the 2014 you are quoting which was his worst year he nearly beat Hamilton to pole at a wet Malaysia.

Vettel's '14, it's normal for people who want to debate false equivalency to take a tiny portion of a large sample and keep hammering on that.

It's like insisting 2011 is what Hamilton is about hence why he lagged behind Alonso till he got the dominant Mercedes the stat is there to prove this line of thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 4:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

This is flat-out false. In terms of point percentage, head-to-head, or average qualifying gap, Alonso beat Kimi by a larger margin in 2014 than Vettel did in 2015.

The only way in which Vettel beat him by a larger margin is pure points scored, which is a worthless metric to compare a season where the team scored a little over 200 points with a season where they scored over 400 points.


Points scored a worthless metric?

This is hilarious you do realise that the constructor points comes from both drivers in the races from their finishing positions?

Kimi scored 3 times the amount of points in 2015 so he became 3 times a better driver against Vettel?


Ok so the points he scored against Alonso is his default position because I don't get the point you are trying to prove.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 5:09 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
IMHO it is not possible to make comparison using teammates. Because there are many variables. Kimi vs Alonso in 2014. Ferrari themselves admitted they will have to build new car for Kimi. The gap is some races was some races were 0.8 to 1sec per lap. I cannot believe how Kimi took this BS honestly.

My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.

Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.


Ah, I see, you throw out imperfect evidence (teammate comparisons) in order to base your assessment on no evidence at all. Very convincing ....


I think it is pointless to make such comparison. I do not like either of them but if I was a team principal I would choose Vettel over Alonso. I do not think Mercedes, Ferrari or RBR are looking for Alonso either. It is unlikely he will move to those teams in future

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 5:41 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Kimi is probably as poor a yardstick as you can find TBF.

I'm sure I'd be a worse yardstick to be fair

Well, a yardstick's purpose is to be exactly the same length regardless of steering setup, tyre characteristics, time of day or lunar position. Kimi isn't, while you'd probably be consistently truly terrible each and every time :lol:

Not sure I'd make it out the pit lane, so wouldn't be much to measure against...


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:01 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
IMHO it is not possible to make comparison using teammates. Because there are many variables. Kimi vs Alonso in 2014. Ferrari themselves admitted they will have to build new car for Kimi. The gap is some races was some races were 0.8 to 1sec per lap. I cannot believe how Kimi took this BS honestly.

My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.


Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.

Vettel being faster in qualifying is merely down to him having faster cars, Alonso beats his teammates quite comfortably in qualifying and has never been beat Like Vettel was in 2014.

Vettel is faster in the wet I guess is down to one wet race in 2008, otherwise I would say they are quite even.

On a clean track Vettel is in a league of his own, that would be true of a few drivers blessed with the fastest car, Alonso has not often had that luxury.


Even in the 2014 you are quoting which was his worst year he nearly beat Hamilton to pole at a wet Malaysia.

Vettel's '14, it's normal for people who want to debate false equivalency to take a tiny portion of a large sample and keep hammering on that.

It's like insisting 2011 is what Hamilton is about hence why he lagged behind Alonso till he got the dominant Mercedes the stat is there to prove this line of thought.

In the Monza wet qualifying last year he was 2 seconds slower than Hamilton, your point being?

Still in 2011 Hamilton was out qualifying Button, he didn't lack basic speed, crashing in the races is another thing again.

Unfortunately 2014 will always remain a small sample because Vettel probably will never get teamed up with Ricciardo again.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:03 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

This is flat-out false. In terms of point percentage, head-to-head, or average qualifying gap, Alonso beat Kimi by a larger margin in 2014 than Vettel did in 2015.

The only way in which Vettel beat him by a larger margin is pure points scored, which is a worthless metric to compare a season where the team scored a little over 200 points with a season where they scored over 400 points.


Points scored a worthless metric?

This is hilarious you do realise that the constructor points comes from both drivers in the races from their finishing positions?

Kimi scored 3 times the amount of points in 2015 so he became 3 times a better driver against Vettel?


Ok so the points he scored against Alonso is his default position because I don't get the point you are trying to prove.

Maybe that the 2015 Ferrari was a much better car than the 2014 Ferrari, it is kind of obvious?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 10:13 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

This is flat-out false. In terms of point percentage, head-to-head, or average qualifying gap, Alonso beat Kimi by a larger margin in 2014 than Vettel did in 2015.

The only way in which Vettel beat him by a larger margin is pure points scored, which is a worthless metric to compare a season where the team scored a little over 200 points with a season where they scored over 400 points.

Points scored a worthless metric?

This is hilarious you do realise that the constructor points comes from both drivers in the races from their finishing positions?

Is this supposed to be a joke? Or are you totally out of touch with the fact that a driver's ability to score points is wholly dependent on the car? Do you think Raikkonen suddenly started driving at a vastly higher level than Alonso from 2015 on, when he started outscoring him by 100+ points a season?

Points scored, with no context of the car, is a totally worthless metric. Raikkonen scored more points in 2015 than he did in 2014 because the car was better.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 12:29 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

This is flat-out false. In terms of point percentage, head-to-head, or average qualifying gap, Alonso beat Kimi by a larger margin in 2014 than Vettel did in 2015.

The only way in which Vettel beat him by a larger margin is pure points scored, which is a worthless metric to compare a season where the team scored a little over 200 points with a season where they scored over 400 points.

Points scored a worthless metric?

This is hilarious you do realise that the constructor points comes from both drivers in the races from their finishing positions?

Is this supposed to be a joke? Or are you totally out of touch with the fact that a driver's ability to score points is wholly dependent on the car? Do you think Raikkonen suddenly started driving at a vastly higher level than Alonso from 2015 on, when he started outscoring him by 100+ points a season?

Points scored, with no context of the car, is a totally worthless metric. Raikkonen scored more points in 2015 than he did in 2014 because the car was better.


This negates your argument really.

Even with Kimi driving a better car, Kimi was still beaten by a larger margin in terms of points by Vettel so I don't get what the car being better has to do with the points difference?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 12:31 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Ok so the points he scored against Alonso is his default position because I don't get the point you are trying to prove.

Maybe that the 2015 Ferrari was a much better car than the 2014 Ferrari, it is kind of obvious?


That even makes Vettel beating Kimi by a larger margin than Alonso did better or don't you think?


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