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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 2:06 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

This is flat-out false. In terms of point percentage, head-to-head, or average qualifying gap, Alonso beat Kimi by a larger margin in 2014 than Vettel did in 2015.

The only way in which Vettel beat him by a larger margin is pure points scored, which is a worthless metric to compare a season where the team scored a little over 200 points with a season where they scored over 400 points.

Points scored a worthless metric?

This is hilarious you do realise that the constructor points comes from both drivers in the races from their finishing positions?

Is this supposed to be a joke? Or are you totally out of touch with the fact that a driver's ability to score points is wholly dependent on the car? Do you think Raikkonen suddenly started driving at a vastly higher level than Alonso from 2015 on, when he started outscoring him by 100+ points a season?

Points scored, with no context of the car, is a totally worthless metric. Raikkonen scored more points in 2015 than he did in 2014 because the car was better.


This negates your argument really.

Even with Kimi driving a better car, Kimi was still beaten by a larger margin in terms of points by Vettel so I don't get what the car being better has to do with the points difference?


You really don't get it? The 2015 car was the second best car that season, was capable of scoring more points on any given weekend. It was a multiple race winner and a car that was guaranteed to make the podium virtually every race weekend. The 2014 Ferrari was a middle of the pack car who could only hope to score a podium when unfortunate things happened to the front running cars.
So of course, Kimi would be outscored by a larger margin in 2015 because simply Vettel could score more points in that years car than Alonso could in his.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 2:21 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

This is flat-out false. In terms of point percentage, head-to-head, or average qualifying gap, Alonso beat Kimi by a larger margin in 2014 than Vettel did in 2015.

The only way in which Vettel beat him by a larger margin is pure points scored, which is a worthless metric to compare a season where the team scored a little over 200 points with a season where they scored over 400 points.

Points scored a worthless metric?

This is hilarious you do realise that the constructor points comes from both drivers in the races from their finishing positions?

Is this supposed to be a joke? Or are you totally out of touch with the fact that a driver's ability to score points is wholly dependent on the car? Do you think Raikkonen suddenly started driving at a vastly higher level than Alonso from 2015 on, when he started outscoring him by 100+ points a season?

Points scored, with no context of the car, is a totally worthless metric. Raikkonen scored more points in 2015 than he did in 2014 because the car was better.

This negates your argument really.

Even with Kimi driving a better car, Kimi was still beaten by a larger margin in terms of points by Vettel so I don't get what the car being better has to do with the points difference?

It does not, and that's because of your basic misapplication of the margin. When comparing two different value sets, you can't use an absolute value without being (likely deliberately) misleading.

The percentage eliminates the numbers themselves and expresses only a ratio, which is the only fair way to deal with two years featuring such differently competitive cars. Alonso scored 3 points for every 1 Kimi scored; Vettel scored about 2 points for every 1 Kimi scored.

If you took the same head-to-head of Alonso vs. Kimi from 2014 and awarded 250 points to the winner, 180 points for second place, and so on, the gap would grow to be far larger than the one Vettel had in 2015 - yet the ratio would remain the same. Surely you can see how in this hypothetical scenario, Kimi didn't suddenly perform any better just for having a larger number of points? That's effectively what having a better car does. It gives you more points for the same performance.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 2:28 am 
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If you really can't see how dealing in higher points scoring positions can lead to bigger gaps in points,especially when one is struggling and/or getting the worst end of luck which cost him 3 retirements before Seb had even finished lower than 5th then I don't know what to say.

5 retirements for Kimi in 2015 to 2* for Seb. (*Counting Spa as a retirement)
1 retirement for Kimi in 2014 to 2 for Alonso.

Seb gained 61pts on Kimi from those retirements in 2015
Alonso gained 7pts on Kimi from those retirements in 2014 (Yep,despite one more retirement he still actually gained)

So Seb had 54pts more over Kimi than Alonso did just from those races Kimi retired from and ended up beating Alonso's points gap by just 22pts despite having 4 more retirements of Kimi to benefit from and a car capable of podiums (15pts) at a minimum when he did.


You're really not making the argument you think you are.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 7:48 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Invade wrote:
Exediron wrote:
My own assessment would be:

Alonso is a slight amount faster on pure pace
Alonso is better at gaining positions off the start
Alonso has noticeably superior racecraft
Alonso is more consistent over a season, with hardly any races where he's off the pace

Vettel is better (than anyone) at opening a 2+ second gap before the DRS is activated
Vettel is better at keeping a positive atmosphere in the team
Vettel is peakier than Alonso, but may very well be faster at his peak
Vettel is a little bit faster in the wet

Both are very good at tyre management
Both are ultimately selfish, like all top drivers

Hey, this is a really interesting breakdown.

Any chance you could do this for the Hamilton match-ups against those guys? I'd also be curious about anyone else you may fancy comparing, if anyone. Maybe past greats?

That could be an interesting idea for a thread, if people could keep it civil! :o

I might see about creating one later when I finish up something I'm working on.


Sounds good. I'll leave it in your hands then for whenever you feel like taking the plunge. I was reading recently how Prost had a level of reliability compared to his peers and teammates which was statistically significant, in that he was able to meaningfully affect the reliability of his machinery. This must have been somewhat of an equaliser against a certain rival who was considered to be even better than him, no?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 8:06 am 
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Invade wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Invade wrote:
Exediron wrote:
My own assessment would be:

Alonso is a slight amount faster on pure pace
Alonso is better at gaining positions off the start
Alonso has noticeably superior racecraft
Alonso is more consistent over a season, with hardly any races where he's off the pace

Vettel is better (than anyone) at opening a 2+ second gap before the DRS is activated
Vettel is better at keeping a positive atmosphere in the team
Vettel is peakier than Alonso, but may very well be faster at his peak
Vettel is a little bit faster in the wet

Both are very good at tyre management
Both are ultimately selfish, like all top drivers

Hey, this is a really interesting breakdown.

Any chance you could do this for the Hamilton match-ups against those guys? I'd also be curious about anyone else you may fancy comparing, if anyone. Maybe past greats?

That could be an interesting idea for a thread, if people could keep it civil! :o

I might see about creating one later when I finish up something I'm working on.


Sounds good. I'll leave it in your hands then for whenever you feel like taking the plunge. I was reading recently how Prost had a level of reliability compared to his peers and teammates which was statistically significant, in that he was able to meaningfully affect the reliability of his machinery. This must have been somewhat of an equaliser against a certain rival who was considered to be even better than him, no?


Interestingly that's not really true. Over the course of his career it's about 60/40. Not really enough of an advantage to draw any conclusions from.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 8:19 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Invade wrote:
Exediron wrote:
My own assessment would be:

Alonso is a slight amount faster on pure pace
Alonso is better at gaining positions off the start
Alonso has noticeably superior racecraft
Alonso is more consistent over a season, with hardly any races where he's off the pace

Vettel is better (than anyone) at opening a 2+ second gap before the DRS is activated
Vettel is better at keeping a positive atmosphere in the team
Vettel is peakier than Alonso, but may very well be faster at his peak
Vettel is a little bit faster in the wet

Both are very good at tyre management
Both are ultimately selfish, like all top drivers

Hey, this is a really interesting breakdown.

Any chance you could do this for the Hamilton match-ups against those guys? I'd also be curious about anyone else you may fancy comparing, if anyone. Maybe past greats?

That could be an interesting idea for a thread, if people could keep it civil! :o

I might see about creating one later when I finish up something I'm working on.


Sounds good. I'll leave it in your hands then for whenever you feel like taking the plunge. I was reading recently how Prost had a level of reliability compared to his peers and teammates which was statistically significant, in that he was able to meaningfully affect the reliability of his machinery. This must have been somewhat of an equaliser against a certain rival who was considered to be even better than him, no?


Interestingly that's not really true. Over the course of his career it's about 60/40. Not really enough of an advantage to draw any conclusions from.



I'm not sure what a meaningful threshold would be but these numbers do look compelling.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2017/09 ... liability/


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 8:25 am 
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Invade wrote:


I'm not sure what a meaningful threshold would be but these numbers do look compelling.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2017/09 ... liability/


Aha. Very interesting read. I admit when I've looked at it I've compared it on a season by season basis rather than as a total number. I'm not sure if the data above includes all DNFs or just mechanical retirements?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 8:31 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:


I'm not sure what a meaningful threshold would be but these numbers do look compelling.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2017/09 ... liability/


Aha. Very interesting read. I admit when I've looked at it I've compared it on a season by season basis rather than as a total number. I'm not sure if the data above includes all DNFs or just mechanical retirements?


Just non-driver DNFs (mechanical retirements). It's really well put together and the results for René Arnoux actually back up the validity of the claim, for it paints the edge he was able to have against Prost in this department as something which was not mainly due to blind luck or randomness.

"It’s interesting to note that Rene Arnoux also has a very favorable career reliability record, with 43 mechanical DNFs to his teammates’ 67 (p=0.004). He is not included in this analysis sample, due to debuting before 1980, but a quick-and-dirty analysis shows that in terms of the p-value he would rank only behind Alain Prost..."


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 8:40 am 
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Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:


I'm not sure what a meaningful threshold would be but these numbers do look compelling.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2017/09 ... liability/


Aha. Very interesting read. I admit when I've looked at it I've compared it on a season by season basis rather than as a total number. I'm not sure if the data above includes all DNFs or just mechanical retirements?


Just non-driver DNFs (mechanical retirements). It's really well put together and the results for René Arnoux actually back up the validity of the claim, for it paints the edge he was able to have against Prost in this department as something which was not mainly due to blind luck or randomness.

"It’s interesting to note that Rene Arnoux also has a very favorable career reliability record, with 43 mechanical DNFs to his teammates’ 67 (p=0.004). He is not included in this analysis sample, due to debuting before 1980, but a quick-and-dirty analysis shows that in terms of the p-value he would rank only behind Alain Prost..."


Fair enough :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 11:10 am 
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kleefton wrote:

You really don't get it? The 2015 car was the second best car that season, was capable of scoring more points on any given weekend. It was a multiple race winner and a car that was guaranteed to make the podium virtually every race weekend. The 2014 Ferrari was a middle of the pack car who could only hope to score a podium when unfortunate things happened to the front running cars.
So of course, Kimi would be outscored by a larger margin in 2015 because simply Vettel could score more points in that years car than Alonso could in his.


What load of tripe is this? Vettel and Raikkonen finished 3 & 4 in the championship and Vettel put more distance than Alonso did that is more impressive in my opinion.

The car was clear second best so even at a weekend where Vettel split the Mercedes Raikkonen was guaranteed to finish 4th in qualifying, without challenge yet Vettel put over a hundred points between them.

C'mon even if you dislike Vettel dont defy logic.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 11:15 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
If you really can't see how dealing in higher points scoring positions can lead to bigger gaps in points,especially when one is struggling and/or getting the worst end of luck which cost him 3 retirements before Seb had even finished lower than 5th then I don't know what to say.

5 retirements for Kimi in 2015 to 2* for Seb. (*Counting Spa as a retirement)
1 retirement for Kimi in 2014 to 2 for Alonso.

Seb gained 61pts on Kimi from those retirements in 2015
Alonso gained 7pts on Kimi from those retirements in 2014 (Yep,despite one more retirement he still actually gained)

So Seb had 54pts more over Kimi than Alonso did just from those races Kimi retired from and ended up beating Alonso's points gap by just 22pts despite having 4 more retirements of Kimi to benefit from and a car capable of podiums (15pts) at a minimum when he did.


You're really not making the argument you think you are.


The retirements for Kimi was not in front of Seb, or races Seb started from the pitlane or behind and still finished ahead, whereas for Seb it was always in front of Kimi so I don't get the inane argument.

We might as well add that Kimi could not drive the '14 car due to its front end hence we negate the entire year as that was a disadvantage he had all season.

I mean at one point Vettel was in front of Rosberg in the championship.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 11:21 am 
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Exediron wrote:

It does not, and that's because of your basic misapplication of the margin. When comparing two different value sets, you can't use an absolute value without being (likely deliberately) misleading.

The percentage eliminates the numbers themselves and expresses only a ratio, which is the only fair way to deal with two years featuring such differently competitive cars. Alonso scored 3 points for every 1 Kimi scored; Vettel scored about 2 points for every 1 Kimi scored.

If you took the same head-to-head of Alonso vs. Kimi from 2014 and awarded 250 points to the winner, 180 points for second place, and so on, the gap would grow to be far larger than the one Vettel had in 2015 - yet the ratio would remain the same. Surely you can see how in this hypothetical scenario, Kimi didn't suddenly perform any better just for having a larger number of points? That's effectively what having a better car does. It gives you more points for the same performance.


If you are going down this route then maybe adjust the qualifying gap for the same position and watch how it ends up as even if Vettel outqualifies Raikkonen by a second he still ends up behind him on the starting grid.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 12:11 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
If you really can't see how dealing in higher points scoring positions can lead to bigger gaps in points,especially when one is struggling and/or getting the worst end of luck which cost him 3 retirements before Seb had even finished lower than 5th then I don't know what to say.

5 retirements for Kimi in 2015 to 2* for Seb. (*Counting Spa as a retirement)
1 retirement for Kimi in 2014 to 2 for Alonso.

Seb gained 61pts on Kimi from those retirements in 2015
Alonso gained 7pts on Kimi from those retirements in 2014 (Yep,despite one more retirement he still actually gained)

So Seb had 54pts more over Kimi than Alonso did just from those races Kimi retired from and ended up beating Alonso's points gap by just 22pts despite having 4 more retirements of Kimi to benefit from and a car capable of podiums (15pts) at a minimum when he did.


You're really not making the argument you think you are.


The retirements for Kimi was not in front of Seb, or races Seb started from the pitlane or behind and still finished ahead, whereas for Seb it was always in front of Kimi so I don't get the inane argument.

I mean at one point Vettel was in front of Rosberg in the championship.


You don't get how Kimi retiring 4 more times in 2015 compared to 2014 can influence the gap between him and his team mate points wise those years?

Wut?

You know what a retirement is right? It means Kimi can't score any points on those 3 extra races he'd have scored heavily, he doesn't need to be in front of Seb when he retired to do so. For example..

Seb finishes 3rd he gets 15pts
Kimi finishes 4th he gets 12pts

A 3pt deficit to his team mate. But if Kimi retires it's now a 15pt deficit. Do that 3 times and what would've been a 9pt deficit to Seb becomes a 45pt deficit between them. That's quite the difference,right?


It's really the opposite of inane. Inane is bringing up Nico Rosberg as if he or Seb being in front of him is in any way relevant. It's not even like anyone is saying Seb was bad that year, he wasn't he was very very good, so what him being in front of Rosberg has to do with anything is beyond me.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 3:08 pm 
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A bit the same if you have a midfield car where the reliability is an issue at a track the car is actually able to score points (versus reliability where it isn't) - so if a driver has a couple of bad car days at the wrong races - the reliability looks the same but the points tally is massively different - something that those who don't understand F1 or are total fanboys/girls don't seem to comprehend


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
If you really can't see how dealing in higher points scoring positions can lead to bigger gaps in points,especially when one is struggling and/or getting the worst end of luck which cost him 3 retirements before Seb had even finished lower than 5th then I don't know what to say.

5 retirements for Kimi in 2015 to 2* for Seb. (*Counting Spa as a retirement)
1 retirement for Kimi in 2014 to 2 for Alonso.

Seb gained 61pts on Kimi from those retirements in 2015
Alonso gained 7pts on Kimi from those retirements in 2014 (Yep,despite one more retirement he still actually gained)

So Seb had 54pts more over Kimi than Alonso did just from those races Kimi retired from and ended up beating Alonso's points gap by just 22pts despite having 4 more retirements of Kimi to benefit from and a car capable of podiums (15pts) at a minimum when he did.


You're really not making the argument you think you are.


The retirements for Kimi was not in front of Seb, or races Seb started from the pitlane or behind and still finished ahead, whereas for Seb it was always in front of Kimi so I don't get the inane argument.

I mean at one point Vettel was in front of Rosberg in the championship.


You don't get how Kimi retiring 4 more times in 2015 compared to 2014 can influence the gap between him and his team mate points wise those years?

Wut?

You know what a retirement is right? It means Kimi can't score any points on those 3 extra races he'd have scored heavily, he doesn't need to be in front of Seb when he retired to do so. For example..

Seb finishes 3rd he gets 15pts
Kimi finishes 4th he gets 12pts

A 3pt deficit to his team mate. But if Kimi retires it's now a 15pt deficit. Do that 3 times and what would've been a 9pt deficit to Seb becomes a 45pt deficit between them. That's quite the difference,right?


It's really the opposite of inane. Inane is bringing up Nico Rosberg as if he or Seb being in front of him is in any way relevant. It's not even like anyone is saying Seb was bad that year, he wasn't he was very very good, so what him being in front of Rosberg has to do with anything is beyond me.


I still don't get what this argument is meant to show, is it that Vettel didn't beat Kimi the same way Alonso did? as in the races they were in different leagues what helped Kimi look respectable was that the Redbulls reliability allowed him finish in default position.

Why not look into the races where Vettel did not retire but was hampered by reliability as well and had to start behind and still beat him, done with this nonsense, this argument defies logic.

How many of this races did Kimi always finish directly behind Vettel?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 4:45 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Vettel beat Kimi by a higher margin in '15 so I don't get your point.

This is flat-out false. In terms of point percentage, head-to-head, or average qualifying gap, Alonso beat Kimi by a larger margin in 2014 than Vettel did in 2015.

The only way in which Vettel beat him by a larger margin is pure points scored, which is a worthless metric to compare a season where the team scored a little over 200 points with a season where they scored over 400 points.

Points scored a worthless metric?

This is hilarious you do realise that the constructor points comes from both drivers in the races from their finishing positions?

Is this supposed to be a joke? Or are you totally out of touch with the fact that a driver's ability to score points is wholly dependent on the car? Do you think Raikkonen suddenly started driving at a vastly higher level than Alonso from 2015 on, when he started outscoring him by 100+ points a season?

Points scored, with no context of the car, is a totally worthless metric. Raikkonen scored more points in 2015 than he did in 2014 because the car was better.


This negates your argument really.

Even with Kimi driving a better car, Kimi was still beaten by a larger margin in terms of points by Vettel so I don't get what the car being better has to do with the points difference?

All the big points are at the front of the field, Ferrari had the second best car, a car good enough for wins and podiums, if Vettel beats Kimi by one position is nominally at least a 3 point difference, if Alonso beats Kimi by one position it's a 1 or 2 point gap.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 5:06 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
If you really can't see how dealing in higher points scoring positions can lead to bigger gaps in points,especially when one is struggling and/or getting the worst end of luck which cost him 3 retirements before Seb had even finished lower than 5th then I don't know what to say.

5 retirements for Kimi in 2015 to 2* for Seb. (*Counting Spa as a retirement)
1 retirement for Kimi in 2014 to 2 for Alonso.

Seb gained 61pts on Kimi from those retirements in 2015
Alonso gained 7pts on Kimi from those retirements in 2014 (Yep,despite one more retirement he still actually gained)

So Seb had 54pts more over Kimi than Alonso did just from those races Kimi retired from and ended up beating Alonso's points gap by just 22pts despite having 4 more retirements of Kimi to benefit from and a car capable of podiums (15pts) at a minimum when he did.


You're really not making the argument you think you are.


The retirements for Kimi was not in front of Seb, or races Seb started from the pitlane or behind and still finished ahead, whereas for Seb it was always in front of Kimi so I don't get the inane argument.

I mean at one point Vettel was in front of Rosberg in the championship.


You don't get how Kimi retiring 4 more times in 2015 compared to 2014 can influence the gap between him and his team mate points wise those years?

Wut?

You know what a retirement is right? It means Kimi can't score any points on those 3 extra races he'd have scored heavily, he doesn't need to be in front of Seb when he retired to do so. For example..

Seb finishes 3rd he gets 15pts
Kimi finishes 4th he gets 12pts

A 3pt deficit to his team mate. But if Kimi retires it's now a 15pt deficit. Do that 3 times and what would've been a 9pt deficit to Seb becomes a 45pt deficit between them. That's quite the difference,right?


It's really the opposite of inane. Inane is bringing up Nico Rosberg as if he or Seb being in front of him is in any way relevant. It's not even like anyone is saying Seb was bad that year, he wasn't he was very very good, so what him being in front of Rosberg has to do with anything is beyond me.


I still don't get what this argument is meant to show, is it that Vettel didn't beat Kimi the same way Alonso did? as in the races they were in different leagues what helped Kimi look respectable was that the Redbulls reliability allowed him finish in default position.

Why not look into the races where Vettel did not retire but was hampered by reliability as well and had to start behind and still beat him, done with this nonsense, this argument defies logic.

How many of this races did Kimi always finish directly behind Vettel?


It shows that Seb beating Kimi by more points in 2015 isn't as impressive as you seem to think it is. It seems you're incapable of rational thought so we'll just leave the fact Seb had a car that he could score more points in by the side of the road and just talk about reliability as you still can't seem to grasp the difference that makes.

Kimi retired 4 more times in 2015 than he did in 2014 so what's impressive about Seb only scoring 22pts more over Kimi than Alonso did the year before despite Alonso himself being the one having one more retirement than Kimi that year?

Imagine if Dan had 1 retirement against Seb in 2014 and Seb had 2 but Seb still won by 10pts
Imagine if Alonso then faced Dan and had 2 retirements but Dan had 5 of them this time and Alonso won by 35pts.

You think Alonso's win is honestly more impressive because he beat Dan by a bigger margin points wise and that the reliability swing is totally irrelevant?

Now imagine Seb was only fighting for top of midfield points against Dan while Alonso could podium every race if he nailed it and earn in one race what Seb needed 2-3 races for and you might see where we're coming from.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 5:15 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
If you really can't see how dealing in higher points scoring positions can lead to bigger gaps in points,especially when one is struggling and/or getting the worst end of luck which cost him 3 retirements before Seb had even finished lower than 5th then I don't know what to say.

5 retirements for Kimi in 2015 to 2* for Seb. (*Counting Spa as a retirement)
1 retirement for Kimi in 2014 to 2 for Alonso.

Seb gained 61pts on Kimi from those retirements in 2015
Alonso gained 7pts on Kimi from those retirements in 2014 (Yep,despite one more retirement he still actually gained)

So Seb had 54pts more over Kimi than Alonso did just from those races Kimi retired from and ended up beating Alonso's points gap by just 22pts despite having 4 more retirements of Kimi to benefit from and a car capable of podiums (15pts) at a minimum when he did.


You're really not making the argument you think you are.


The retirements for Kimi was not in front of Seb, or races Seb started from the pitlane or behind and still finished ahead, whereas for Seb it was always in front of Kimi so I don't get the inane argument.

I mean at one point Vettel was in front of Rosberg in the championship.


You don't get how Kimi retiring 4 more times in 2015 compared to 2014 can influence the gap between him and his team mate points wise those years?

Wut?

You know what a retirement is right? It means Kimi can't score any points on those 3 extra races he'd have scored heavily, he doesn't need to be in front of Seb when he retired to do so. For example..

Seb finishes 3rd he gets 15pts
Kimi finishes 4th he gets 12pts

A 3pt deficit to his team mate. But if Kimi retires it's now a 15pt deficit. Do that 3 times and what would've been a 9pt deficit to Seb becomes a 45pt deficit between them. That's quite the difference,right?


It's really the opposite of inane. Inane is bringing up Nico Rosberg as if he or Seb being in front of him is in any way relevant. It's not even like anyone is saying Seb was bad that year, he wasn't he was very very good, so what him being in front of Rosberg has to do with anything is beyond me.


I still don't get what this argument is meant to show, is it that Vettel didn't beat Kimi the same way Alonso did? as in the races they were in different leagues what helped Kimi look respectable was that the Redbulls reliability allowed him finish in default position.

Why not look into the races where Vettel did not retire but was hampered by reliability as well and had to start behind and still beat him, done with this nonsense, this argument defies logic.

How many of this races did Kimi always finish directly behind Vettel?


It shows that Seb beating Kimi by more points in 2015 isn't as impressive as you seem to think it is. It seems you're incapable of rational thought so we'll just leave the fact Seb had a car that he could score more points in by the side of the road and just talk about reliability as you still can't seem to grasp the difference that makes.

Kimi retired 4 more times in 2015 than he did in 2014 so what's impressive about Seb only scoring 22pts more over Kimi than Alonso did the year before despite Alonso himself being the one having one more retirement than Kimi that year?

Imagine if Dan had 1 retirement against Seb in 2014 and Seb had 2 but Seb still won by 10pts
Imagine if Alonso then faced Dan and had 2 retirements but Dan had 5 of them this time and Alonso won by 35pts.

You think Alonso's win is honestly more impressive because he beat Dan by a bigger margin points wise and that the reliability swing is totally irrelevant?

Now imagine Seb was only fighting for top of midfield points against Dan while Alonso could podium every race if he nailed it and earn in one race what Seb needed 2-3 races for and you might see where we're coming from.


What you are saying here is a load of words I don't agree with.

Vettel outqualifies Kimi by 6/10ths Kimi qualifies behind him in '15, Alonso outqualifies Kimi by 3/10th in '14 Kimi qualifies several places behind, also there came a period where Ferrari focused Kimi on '15 development do we adjust for that as well.

Please adjust tha


Last edited by Mod Blue on Sat May 26, 2018 8:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 5:43 pm 
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Alonso vs Vettel. Although they have been in the F1 pack along side each other for a long time i don't think there has been a lot of comparitive info

Sebastian was in the top car 2010 - 2013, Fernando wasn't

Put Fernando in a top car and i believe he will match Seb in qualifying and the race

I know there been 13 pages of 'debate' but put Fernando in an equal car and i think it it will be nip and tuck

Looking back at the original post on page 1, these two two could be the immaculate rivalry ala Senna and Prost


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 7:47 pm 
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jiminwatford wrote:
Alonso vs Vettel. Although they have been in the F1 pack along side each other for a long time i don't think there has been a lot of comparitive info

Sebastian was in the top car 2010 - 2013, Fernando wasn't

Put Fernando in a top car and i believe he will match Seb in qualifying and the race

I know there been 13 pages of 'debate' but put Fernando in an equal car and i think it it will be nip and tuck

Looking back at the original post on page 1, these two two could be the immaculate rivalry ala Senna and Prost

It actually would be nothing like the Senna and Prost rivalry as the 2 of them had very little in common, much different strengths to one another and you are sort of forgetting Hamilton for one.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:38 am 
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Rockie wrote:
If you are going down this route then maybe adjust the qualifying gap for the same position and watch how it ends up as even if Vettel outqualifies Raikkonen by a second he still ends up behind him on the starting grid.

Are you seriously claiming that there was even one time where Vettel out-qualified Kimi by a second and there was only one place between them? I don't even think that happened at Mercedes, let alone Ferrari.

I really don't know what else I can say to get through to you. If you're going to insist on treating raw, unqualified points scored as the best way of separating the performance of two drivers in two very different cars, then I really think I'm wasting my time.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 5:20 am 
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pokerman wrote:
jiminwatford wrote:
Alonso vs Vettel. Although they have been in the F1 pack along side each other for a long time i don't think there has been a lot of comparitive info

Sebastian was in the top car 2010 - 2013, Fernando wasn't

Put Fernando in a top car and i believe he will match Seb in qualifying and the race

I know there been 13 pages of 'debate' but put Fernando in an equal car and i think it it will be nip and tuck

Looking back at the original post on page 1, these two two could be the immaculate rivalry ala Senna and Prost

It actually would be nothing like the Senna and Prost rivalry as the 2 of them had very little in common, much different strengths to one another and you are sort of forgetting Hamilton for one.


In 2010 and 2012, Alonso and Vettel did have more or less equal cars over the course of the season (taking reliability and bad luck into account). Last race was the absolute decider, with Alonso heavily favored in both. So I think we did have an example of both in cars capable of winning the season at the same time - twice. It is nip and tuck - and I agree other drivers would be right there too (but the thread is Alonso/Seb).


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 5:30 am 
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At the end of the day, there is no doubt (?) that Alonso has a grudge against Seb, and Seb probably feels the same way as a result of Alonso's comments and actions.

They don't need to like each other - just race the same way against each other as they would any other driver!

Lewis has (I think) given up on the 'Seb is an inferior driver' campaign - whilst Alonso still holds his grudge?

It doesn't really matter, as Alonso's own actions have left him out of the best cars....


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 6:05 am 
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Raikkonen beat Fisichella by a bigger margin than Alonso did, so these cross comparisons are not always reflective.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 6:12 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Raikkonen beat Fisichella by a bigger margin than Alonso did, so these cross comparisons are not always reflective.

And that's without taking into account that Flavio said the team (Renault) couldn't afford to supply an equally good car to both drivers....


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 7:09 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Raikkonen beat Fisichella by a bigger margin than Alonso did, so these cross comparisons are not always reflective.

And that's without taking into account that Flavio said the team (Renault) couldn't afford to supply an equally good car to both drivers....


To be fair he would say that. He was Fissichella's manager trying to talk him into a drive. If it's true or not I don't know but I know I wouldn't trust Flavio.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 11:06 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
jiminwatford wrote:
Alonso vs Vettel. Although they have been in the F1 pack along side each other for a long time i don't think there has been a lot of comparitive info

Sebastian was in the top car 2010 - 2013, Fernando wasn't

Put Fernando in a top car and i believe he will match Seb in qualifying and the race

I know there been 13 pages of 'debate' but put Fernando in an equal car and i think it it will be nip and tuck

Looking back at the original post on page 1, these two two could be the immaculate rivalry ala Senna and Prost

It actually would be nothing like the Senna and Prost rivalry as the 2 of them had very little in common, much different strengths to one another and you are sort of forgetting Hamilton for one.


In 2010 and 2012, Alonso and Vettel did have more or less equal cars over the course of the season (taking reliability and bad luck into account). Last race was the absolute decider, with Alonso heavily favored in both. So I think we did have an example of both in cars capable of winning the season at the same time - twice. It is nip and tuck - and I agree other drivers would be right there too (but the thread is Alonso/Seb).

Reliability and bad luck rather than reliability and bad driving?

Vettel had much the faster car and was not pole positions used as a measure of Vettel being the faster driver which is were I stepped in?

I think the Senna/Prost rivalry was based around them being the out and out best drivers plus they were in the same cars.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 11:08 pm 
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LKS1 wrote:
At the end of the day, there is no doubt (?) that Alonso has a grudge against Seb, and Seb probably feels the same way as a result of Alonso's comments and actions.

They don't need to like each other - just race the same way against each other as they would any other driver!

Lewis has (I think) given up on the 'Seb is an inferior driver' campaign - whilst Alonso still holds his grudge?

It doesn't really matter, as Alonso's own actions have left him out of the best cars....

I don't see Vettel has having a grudge against Alonso, it's hard to have banter with someone who turns their nose up at you.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:22 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
jiminwatford wrote:
Alonso vs Vettel. Although they have been in the F1 pack along side each other for a long time i don't think there has been a lot of comparitive info

Sebastian was in the top car 2010 - 2013, Fernando wasn't

Put Fernando in a top car and i believe he will match Seb in qualifying and the race

I know there been 13 pages of 'debate' but put Fernando in an equal car and i think it it will be nip and tuck

Looking back at the original post on page 1, these two two could be the immaculate rivalry ala Senna and Prost

It actually would be nothing like the Senna and Prost rivalry as the 2 of them had very little in common, much different strengths to one another and you are sort of forgetting Hamilton for one.


In 2010 and 2012, Alonso and Vettel did have more or less equal cars over the course of the season (taking reliability and bad luck into account). Last race was the absolute decider, with Alonso heavily favored in both. So I think we did have an example of both in cars capable of winning the season at the same time - twice. It is nip and tuck - and I agree other drivers would be right there too (but the thread is Alonso/Seb).


They did NOT have 'more or less equal cars' as you state. That they ended up having almost the same amount of points says nothing of the way they employed to get them. RBR was quite a lot better than the Ferrari, as pointed at by WCC standings and second drivers positions and results.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 4:08 am 
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I don’t think that Alonso drove better than Vettel did in 2010.

People will remember Vettels mistakes in Turkey and Belgium; but Alonso’s are ignored. Alonso made mistakes in Australia, China, Monaco, Silverstone and Belgium. He could have won the WDC by over 40 points without those mistakes.

Yes, Red Bull was faster than Ferrari, but Alonso’s car was also far more reliable than Vettel’s car. Vettel lost 63 points in Bahrain, Australia and Korea. Alonso gained 16 points in those three races, so Vettel lost a net 79 points relative to Alonso thanks to reliability. That is a huge amount. Alonso’s only car failure came in Malaysia when he was driving in 9th place, and lost only 2 points.

Hamilton, Kubica and Rosberg were the three best drivers of 2010.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 4:22 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
IMHO it is not possible to make comparison using teammates. Because there are many variables. Kimi vs Alonso in 2014. Ferrari themselves admitted they will have to build new car for Kimi. The gap is some races was some races were 0.8 to 1sec per lap. I cannot believe how Kimi took this BS honestly.

My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.

Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.

Vettel being faster in qualifying is merely down to him having faster cars, Alonso beats his teammates quite comfortably in qualifying and has never been beat Like Vettel was in 2014.

Vettel is faster in the wet I guess is down to one wet race in 2008, otherwise I would say they are quite even.

On a clean track Vettel is in a league of his own, that would be true of a few drivers blessed with the fastest car, Alonso has not often had that luxury.


No I am not basing simply on stats. As far as Ricciardo beat Vettel. Equal treatment and one driver not able to drive at his best can happen. I think Ricciardo is also better than Alonso. But Top6 or top8 drivers are close and there is no point discussing which one is better than the other :?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 5:29 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
I don’t think that Alonso drove better than Vettel did in 2010.

People will remember Vettels mistakes in Turkey and Belgium; but Alonso’s are ignored. Alonso made mistakes in Australia, China, Monaco, Silverstone and Belgium. He could have won the WDC by over 40 points without those mistakes.

Yes, Red Bull was faster than Ferrari, but Alonso’s car was also far more reliable than Vettel’s car. Vettel lost 63 points in Bahrain, Australia and Korea. Alonso gained 16 points in those three races, so Vettel lost a net 79 points relative to Alonso thanks to reliability. That is a huge amount. Alonso’s only car failure came in Malaysia when he was driving in 9th place, and lost only 2 points.

Hamilton, Kubica and Rosberg were the three best drivers of 2010.


I don't think they are ignored at all, it's the reason Lewis usually gets the nod for 2010 despite his own mistakes. China and Monaco are usually one of the first things talked about when talking about his season, along with Petrov.

He was in 9th for a good reason in Malaysia, his clutch broke at the start. And driving around the clutch then broke his engine. Which then meant he was an engine down and by the time AD rolled around his was down on power through wear which contributed to the Petrov problem.

A great drive in Malaysia but a costly one and a big part of the reason we see people park it now when they have an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:08 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
I don’t think that Alonso drove better than Vettel did in 2010.

People will remember Vettels mistakes in Turkey and Belgium; but Alonso’s are ignored. Alonso made mistakes in Australia, China, Monaco, Silverstone and Belgium. He could have won the WDC by over 40 points without those mistakes.

Yes, Red Bull was faster than Ferrari, but Alonso’s car was also far more reliable than Vettel’s car. Vettel lost 63 points in Bahrain, Australia and Korea. Alonso gained 16 points in those three races, so Vettel lost a net 79 points relative to Alonso thanks to reliability. That is a huge amount. Alonso’s only car failure came in Malaysia when he was driving in 9th place, and lost only 2 points.

Hamilton, Kubica and Rosberg were the three best drivers of 2010.


Same Hamilton who kept tangling with Webber? and proceeded to take himself out of championship contention.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:18 am 
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Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I don’t think that Alonso drove better than Vettel did in 2010.

People will remember Vettels mistakes in Turkey and Belgium; but Alonso’s are ignored. Alonso made mistakes in Australia, China, Monaco, Silverstone and Belgium. He could have won the WDC by over 40 points without those mistakes.

Yes, Red Bull was faster than Ferrari, but Alonso’s car was also far more reliable than Vettel’s car. Vettel lost 63 points in Bahrain, Australia and Korea. Alonso gained 16 points in those three races, so Vettel lost a net 79 points relative to Alonso thanks to reliability. That is a huge amount. Alonso’s only car failure came in Malaysia when he was driving in 9th place, and lost only 2 points.

Hamilton, Kubica and Rosberg were the three best drivers of 2010.


Same Hamilton who kept tangling with Webber? and proceeded to take himself out of championship contention.


No-one was largely flawless that year though so it doesn't make much difference as long as it's not more than his rivals which it wasn't. Plus he had a team mate battle with a better driver than Webber so all in all I think he gets the nod.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:28 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I don’t think that Alonso drove better than Vettel did in 2010.

People will remember Vettels mistakes in Turkey and Belgium; but Alonso’s are ignored. Alonso made mistakes in Australia, China, Monaco, Silverstone and Belgium. He could have won the WDC by over 40 points without those mistakes.

Yes, Red Bull was faster than Ferrari, but Alonso’s car was also far more reliable than Vettel’s car. Vettel lost 63 points in Bahrain, Australia and Korea. Alonso gained 16 points in those three races, so Vettel lost a net 79 points relative to Alonso thanks to reliability. That is a huge amount. Alonso’s only car failure came in Malaysia when he was driving in 9th place, and lost only 2 points.

Hamilton, Kubica and Rosberg were the three best drivers of 2010.


Same Hamilton who kept tangling with Webber? and proceeded to take himself out of championship contention.


No-one was largely flawless that year though so it doesn't make much difference as long as it's not more than his rivals which it wasn't. Plus he had a team mate battle with a better driver than Webber so all in all I think he gets the nod.


A team mate better than Webber by what metric, WDC or what?

C'mon let's get serious.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:06 am 
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Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I don’t think that Alonso drove better than Vettel did in 2010.

People will remember Vettels mistakes in Turkey and Belgium; but Alonso’s are ignored. Alonso made mistakes in Australia, China, Monaco, Silverstone and Belgium. He could have won the WDC by over 40 points without those mistakes.

Yes, Red Bull was faster than Ferrari, but Alonso’s car was also far more reliable than Vettel’s car. Vettel lost 63 points in Bahrain, Australia and Korea. Alonso gained 16 points in those three races, so Vettel lost a net 79 points relative to Alonso thanks to reliability. That is a huge amount. Alonso’s only car failure came in Malaysia when he was driving in 9th place, and lost only 2 points.

Hamilton, Kubica and Rosberg were the three best drivers of 2010.


Same Hamilton who kept tangling with Webber? and proceeded to take himself out of championship contention.


He didn't? He was in the WDC fight going into the last race.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:01 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I don’t think that Alonso drove better than Vettel did in 2010.

People will remember Vettels mistakes in Turkey and Belgium; but Alonso’s are ignored. Alonso made mistakes in Australia, China, Monaco, Silverstone and Belgium. He could have won the WDC by over 40 points without those mistakes.

Yes, Red Bull was faster than Ferrari, but Alonso’s car was also far more reliable than Vettel’s car. Vettel lost 63 points in Bahrain, Australia and Korea. Alonso gained 16 points in those three races, so Vettel lost a net 79 points relative to Alonso thanks to reliability. That is a huge amount. Alonso’s only car failure came in Malaysia when he was driving in 9th place, and lost only 2 points.

Hamilton, Kubica and Rosberg were the three best drivers of 2010.


Same Hamilton who kept tangling with Webber? and proceeded to take himself out of championship contention.


No-one was largely flawless that year though so it doesn't make much difference as long as it's not more than his rivals which it wasn't. Plus he had a team mate battle with a better driver than Webber so all in all I think he gets the nod.


A team mate better than Webber by what metric, WDC or what?

C'mon let's get serious.


By any metric you wish to use.

Didn't expect that to be in any way controversial tbh.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:16 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
IMHO it is not possible to make comparison using teammates. Because there are many variables. Kimi vs Alonso in 2014. Ferrari themselves admitted they will have to build new car for Kimi. The gap is some races was some races were 0.8 to 1sec per lap. I cannot believe how Kimi took this BS honestly.

My understanding watching F1 for over the years is the difference between the best and even worst driver is not much. Little little things make a huge difference in F1, tyres, suspension, setup etc .. From myy observation. Vettel is better than Alonso.

Vettel is faster in qualifying.
Vettel is faster in wets.
Vettel is on par with Alonso in race but Alonso is more intelligent and makes less mistakes so he probably has little edge over him.
On clean track though Vettel is in a league of his own.
Alonso has better starts.

Vettel is also a very good team player and very honest. Even if he does not win title in Ferrari. I think Ferrari will have more respect for him than Alonso.

Vettel being faster in qualifying is merely down to him having faster cars, Alonso beats his teammates quite comfortably in qualifying and has never been beat Like Vettel was in 2014.

Vettel is faster in the wet I guess is down to one wet race in 2008, otherwise I would say they are quite even.

On a clean track Vettel is in a league of his own, that would be true of a few drivers blessed with the fastest car, Alonso has not often had that luxury.


No I am not basing simply on stats. As far as Ricciardo beat Vettel. Equal treatment and one driver not able to drive at his best can happen. I think Ricciardo is also better than Alonso. But Top6 or top8 drivers are close and there is no point discussing which one is better than the other :?

There is no point discussing who is better but that's what you did. :?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:20 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I don’t think that Alonso drove better than Vettel did in 2010.

People will remember Vettels mistakes in Turkey and Belgium; but Alonso’s are ignored. Alonso made mistakes in Australia, China, Monaco, Silverstone and Belgium. He could have won the WDC by over 40 points without those mistakes.

Yes, Red Bull was faster than Ferrari, but Alonso’s car was also far more reliable than Vettel’s car. Vettel lost 63 points in Bahrain, Australia and Korea. Alonso gained 16 points in those three races, so Vettel lost a net 79 points relative to Alonso thanks to reliability. That is a huge amount. Alonso’s only car failure came in Malaysia when he was driving in 9th place, and lost only 2 points.

Hamilton, Kubica and Rosberg were the three best drivers of 2010.


Same Hamilton who kept tangling with Webber? and proceeded to take himself out of championship contention.

Webber who dive bombed Hamilton in Australia twice but the officials did nothing because I guess it was Australia?

Then we have Singapore were Hamilton get's the blame because it was his car that got damaged.

What other instances were there?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26928
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I don’t think that Alonso drove better than Vettel did in 2010.

People will remember Vettels mistakes in Turkey and Belgium; but Alonso’s are ignored. Alonso made mistakes in Australia, China, Monaco, Silverstone and Belgium. He could have won the WDC by over 40 points without those mistakes.

Yes, Red Bull was faster than Ferrari, but Alonso’s car was also far more reliable than Vettel’s car. Vettel lost 63 points in Bahrain, Australia and Korea. Alonso gained 16 points in those three races, so Vettel lost a net 79 points relative to Alonso thanks to reliability. That is a huge amount. Alonso’s only car failure came in Malaysia when he was driving in 9th place, and lost only 2 points.

Hamilton, Kubica and Rosberg were the three best drivers of 2010.


Same Hamilton who kept tangling with Webber? and proceeded to take himself out of championship contention.


No-one was largely flawless that year though so it doesn't make much difference as long as it's not more than his rivals which it wasn't. Plus he had a team mate battle with a better driver than Webber so all in all I think he gets the nod.


A team mate better than Webber by what metric, WDC or what?

C'mon let's get serious.

I think Button showed against Alonso that he was better than Webber.

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2015: 3rd Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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