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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You clearly said by doing this they are losing 14hp so that did make a negative impact on the engine, the superb performance is clearly because of the car itself, as a comparsion when did McLaren get wins and podiums with the Honda engine to be able to credit the McLaren car itself?

It may have given a small bhp loss, but that's fairly nominal when compared to the issues they faced last year. If 14bhp was all they had to worry about they'd still be together now.

Red Bull have been using the fuel for a while now whilst for Honda they had to change at short notice so the impact may have been larger, however the point being it still put Honda in a compromised position, I also believe the article also mentioned it might cause reliability issues, surely an engine manufacturer chooses it's own supplier not the team?

It's not a relevant point, because a) we don't know the impact, b) we don't even know whether Honda were consulted, and c) we have zero idea whether this was something imposed by McLaren against Honda's wishes.

Honda build the engines but McLaren changed the fuel supplier and it was said at fairly short notice, but this wouldn't be any kind of interference by McLaren or detriment to Honda?

You have already given an example how Red Bull having a different fuel supplier to Renault is a detriment to them, also I'm sure I heard McLaren did the same when they had Mercedes engines which also gave them a performance deficit.

So let's theorise Red Bull lose 14hp, Honda gained 13hp when they were able to change the exhaust system in the STR, that's close to 30hp.

By their own admission Honda weren't aware of the performance gains by changing the exhaust, so it's a stretch to blame McLaren when they had no idea what they were "compromising." As to the fuel supplier: I repeat that you don't have a clue whether Honda were aware of the situation. Or what the impact actually was


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:07 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
When did a marketing man like Zak Brown become a technician, the articles own interpretation was that McLaren have a wider problem with their design department which goes beyond the sacking of Tim Goss.

no, the article states that it was PART of a programme to overhaul the ENTIRE organisation

Which happens to start with the sacking of a designer but it's purely just some kind of management overhaul.

an overhaul which gave Zak Brown a new job, among others, but let's keep insisting it's some kind of smokescreen just to sack Goss

Would that be lead designer?

Zak?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:12 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
It may have given a small bhp loss, but that's fairly nominal when compared to the issues they faced last year. If 14bhp was all they had to worry about they'd still be together now.

Red Bull have been using the fuel for a while now whilst for Honda they had to change at short notice so the impact may have been larger, however the point being it still put Honda in a compromised position, I also believe the article also mentioned it might cause reliability issues, surely an engine manufacturer chooses it's own supplier not the team?

It's not a relevant point, because a) we don't know the impact, b) we don't even know whether Honda were consulted, and c) we have zero idea whether this was something imposed by McLaren against Honda's wishes.

Honda build the engines but McLaren changed the fuel supplier and it was said at fairly short notice, but this wouldn't be any kind of interference by McLaren or detriment to Honda?

You have already given an example how Red Bull having a different fuel supplier to Renault is a detriment to them, also I'm sure I heard McLaren did the same when they had Mercedes engines which also gave them a performance deficit.

So let's theorise Red Bull lose 14hp, Honda gained 13hp when they were able to change the exhaust system in the STR, that's close to 30hp.

By their own admission Honda weren't aware of the performance gains by changing the exhaust, so it's a stretch to blame McLaren when they had no idea what they were "compromising." As to the fuel supplier: I repeat that you don't have a clue whether Honda were aware of the situation. Or what the impact actually was

I'm not a technical person and I believe you aren't either, however the guy that wrote the article is and he viewed it as not being good for Honda.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Red Bull have been using the fuel for a while now whilst for Honda they had to change at short notice so the impact may have been larger, however the point being it still put Honda in a compromised position, I also believe the article also mentioned it might cause reliability issues, surely an engine manufacturer chooses it's own supplier not the team?

It's not a relevant point, because a) we don't know the impact, b) we don't even know whether Honda were consulted, and c) we have zero idea whether this was something imposed by McLaren against Honda's wishes.

Honda build the engines but McLaren changed the fuel supplier and it was said at fairly short notice, but this wouldn't be any kind of interference by McLaren or detriment to Honda?

You have already given an example how Red Bull having a different fuel supplier to Renault is a detriment to them, also I'm sure I heard McLaren did the same when they had Mercedes engines which also gave them a performance deficit.

So let's theorise Red Bull lose 14hp, Honda gained 13hp when they were able to change the exhaust system in the STR, that's close to 30hp.

By their own admission Honda weren't aware of the performance gains by changing the exhaust, so it's a stretch to blame McLaren when they had no idea what they were "compromising." As to the fuel supplier: I repeat that you don't have a clue whether Honda were aware of the situation. Or what the impact actually was

I'm not a technical person and I believe you aren't either, however the guy that wrote the article is and he viewed it as not being good for Honda.

he speculated. By his own admission


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:13 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
no, the article states that it was PART of a programme to overhaul the ENTIRE organisation

Which happens to start with the sacking of a designer but it's purely just some kind of management overhaul.

an overhaul which gave Zak Brown a new job, among others, but let's keep insisting it's some kind of smokescreen just to sack Goss

Would that be lead designer?

Zak?

Yep the marketing guy who's new position is going to turn McLaren's fortunes around.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:17 pm 
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Benetton/Renault did pretty well with a marketing guy in charge, and Ferrari is making a pretty good showing lately as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:17 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
It's not a relevant point, because a) we don't know the impact, b) we don't even know whether Honda were consulted, and c) we have zero idea whether this was something imposed by McLaren against Honda's wishes.

Honda build the engines but McLaren changed the fuel supplier and it was said at fairly short notice, but this wouldn't be any kind of interference by McLaren or detriment to Honda?

You have already given an example how Red Bull having a different fuel supplier to Renault is a detriment to them, also I'm sure I heard McLaren did the same when they had Mercedes engines which also gave them a performance deficit.

So let's theorise Red Bull lose 14hp, Honda gained 13hp when they were able to change the exhaust system in the STR, that's close to 30hp.

By their own admission Honda weren't aware of the performance gains by changing the exhaust, so it's a stretch to blame McLaren when they had no idea what they were "compromising." As to the fuel supplier: I repeat that you don't have a clue whether Honda were aware of the situation. Or what the impact actually was

I'm not a technical person and I believe you aren't either, however the guy that wrote the article is and he viewed it as not being good for Honda.

he speculated. By his own admission

He didn't speculate he said the late switch to a new fuel supplier would have been a massive blow for Honda.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:19 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Benetton/Renault did pretty well with a marketing guy in charge, and Ferrari is making a pretty good showing lately as well.

So all along Zak's not been in charge?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:20 pm 
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Posts: 22630
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Which happens to start with the sacking of a designer but it's purely just some kind of management overhaul.

an overhaul which gave Zak Brown a new job, among others, but let's keep insisting it's some kind of smokescreen just to sack Goss

Would that be lead designer?

Zak?

Yep the marketing guy who's new position is going to turn McLaren's fortunes around.

so how was he lead designer?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Honda build the engines but McLaren changed the fuel supplier and it was said at fairly short notice, but this wouldn't be any kind of interference by McLaren or detriment to Honda?

You have already given an example how Red Bull having a different fuel supplier to Renault is a detriment to them, also I'm sure I heard McLaren did the same when they had Mercedes engines which also gave them a performance deficit.

So let's theorise Red Bull lose 14hp, Honda gained 13hp when they were able to change the exhaust system in the STR, that's close to 30hp.

By their own admission Honda weren't aware of the performance gains by changing the exhaust, so it's a stretch to blame McLaren when they had no idea what they were "compromising." As to the fuel supplier: I repeat that you don't have a clue whether Honda were aware of the situation. Or what the impact actually was

I'm not a technical person and I believe you aren't either, however the guy that wrote the article is and he viewed it as not being good for Honda.

he speculated. By his own admission

He didn't speculate he said the late switch to a new fuel supplier would have been a massive blow for Honda.

which was speculation


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:38 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
an overhaul which gave Zak Brown a new job, among others, but let's keep insisting it's some kind of smokescreen just to sack Goss

Would that be lead designer?

Zak?

Yep the marketing guy who's new position is going to turn McLaren's fortunes around.

so how was he lead designer?

A joke, the problem is in the design department so they found Zak a new job.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:40 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
By their own admission Honda weren't aware of the performance gains by changing the exhaust, so it's a stretch to blame McLaren when they had no idea what they were "compromising." As to the fuel supplier: I repeat that you don't have a clue whether Honda were aware of the situation. Or what the impact actually was

I'm not a technical person and I believe you aren't either, however the guy that wrote the article is and he viewed it as not being good for Honda.

he speculated. By his own admission

He didn't speculate he said the late switch to a new fuel supplier would have been a massive blow for Honda.

which was speculation

He said it as a fact given his knowledge of the subject matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I get your point but seriously would you tag Renault as future Mercedes beaters, even now, maybe 2021 when the rules change?


Back in 2016 I wouldn't have given a dime for anyone's chances to challenge Mercedes in the coming years. But If Alonso would still have been there, that would have been 7 seasons and still a very distant second best falling back to third by the end of the season. Making it logical to lose faith and try something else. Customer teams apart from RBR (who wouldn't have him anyway) aren't attractive, an up and coming works outfit could be more attractive.

Quote:
Also what's to stop Alonso joining Renault next year


That doesn't seem relevant given we're discussing about what would have happened in 2016 if he had still been there.

Quote:
and let's remember that Renault said themselves it would take them 3 years to be competitive, that's not a timeline that would attract Alonso


And you know this how?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:12 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I get your point but seriously would you tag Renault as future Mercedes beaters, even now, maybe 2021 when the rules change?


Back in 2016 I wouldn't have given a dime for anyone's chances to challenge Mercedes in the coming years. But If Alonso would still have been there, that would have been 7 seasons and still a very distant second best falling back to third by the end of the season. Making it logical to lose faith and try something else. Customer teams apart from RBR (who wouldn't have him anyway) aren't attractive, an up and coming works outfit could be more attractive.

Quote:
Also what's to stop Alonso joining Renault next year


That doesn't seem relevant given we're discussing about what would have happened in 2016 if he had still been there.

Quote:
and let's remember that Renault said themselves it would take them 3 years to be competitive, that's not a timeline that would attract Alonso


And you know this how?

Do you think that Alonso went to McLaren with a 3 year timeline to be competitive?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:08 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I repeat again though in respect to Vettel he replaced Alonso and walked into that situation.


Different situation based on different recent history. Added to what I said in a previous post Seb was in his mid 20's and coming off of 4 recent WDC's so he obviously had more scope to absorb some waiting for competitiveness. Alonso was in his early 30's and without a WDC in 8 years.

Apples and Oranges in just about every respect.

I see your point but McLaren themselves had not won a race since 2012 and the last title was in 2008 and would have a totally unproven engine, if he couldn't see Ferrari turning things around anytime soon why were Mclaren going to do any better?


I think they just offered two bites at a cherry he knew he wasn't going to get at Ferrari. I think he was right that Ferrari would take longer than the duration left on his contract before they could challenge Mercedes and Honda at least offered the chance of hitting the ground running like Mercedes. There was a lot of fuss at the time about the split turbo being key for Mercedes and Honda had it as well,and in general a lot of hype.

That and the disillusionment at Ferrari might have been enough to think it was worth a shot. Lewis's gamble being such a success might have had an influence as well. I think there was a lot of things floating around in that time including the death of Botin and LdM getting ousted.

There was probably dozens of factors.

I was actually thinking the same about what Hamilton did with Mercedes but as a Hamilton fan I thought people would just focus on me trying to big Hamilton up.

Alonso in the past as always gone for the sure thing, he signed for McLaren in 2005 when they had the fastest car, he supposedly was in talks with Ferrari as early as 2008 when they had the fastest car, neither of these worked out for him.

Then he sees Hamilton gamble with a struggling team with a new project and it pays off, so yes that might have interested him in doing something similar.

That being said I think the McLaren Honda offer was just a back up plan, he thought he held all the cards at Ferrari has he tried to negotiate get out clauses in his new contract offer, all the other top drivers were under contract, he never knew about Vettel's get out clause in his Red Bull contract and Alonso got out maneuvered.


I think it's fair to mention in the sense it's one of several factors from the time that could've influenced him.

Not going to do the whole leaving Ferrari/ousted thing again..It's been done to death at least twice in this thread with sources provided and every major players account is the same one, that Alonso lost faith and wanted to go. From Allison to Alonso, Arivabenne to Briatore, none of them contradict it and I'm happy with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:14 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The proof is in the pudding, 3 months into the season and the engine that McLaren ditched is going to be taken onboard by Red Bull whilst McLaren have sacked one of their designers, the failure was not a one way street.


Red Bull haven't been hurt by Honda performance for 3 years already, they actually gained Esso and Tag Heur because of those failings and they'll only take them once they've had mountains of data from their sister team. More apples and oranges.

And the designer fired is the one responsible for something else which is completely new to this years McLaren, the suspension. Which also happens to be what is responsible for the slow speed corner dismal performance this year, with McLaren having to run more d/f at the rear to get the tyres to work which in turn is causing a drag problem.

Might be a link there but that would be an inconvenient truth for those trying to say all McLaren chassis's lately have been bad.

Why sack a designer that has worked at McLaren since 1990 for one bad car when the previous one was so good, unless.....


..he had some other suspension nightmares on his recent record and who knows what else.

No-one's saying McLaren nailed their suspension or chassis every year. They've had ups (last year)and downs(Butterfly) in this turbo era alone for example.

He could've been moved on for more than just the suspension of course.

The McLaren line is that they are reviewing a lot of things in the design department after basically realising this year they are not as strong as they thought which again leads me to the thought about just how good was last year car, the language comes across as the hierarchy being misled previous to this season?


Well after such a failure in the winter I'd be worried if they didn't address it. They were 3 months late with the nose, the suspension doesn't work and they spent most of winter testing in the garage for one silly reason after the other.

But no it doesn't have to mean they were lied to or misled, it can simply be a response to such failures to go along with perhaps missed targets in other areas too. I read somewhere the thing that's wrong with the suspension was the rear d/f numbers predicted fell woefully short in reality so again a tale of missed targets like the floor last year we saw in the documentary to go along with the nose being late this year.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:23 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:

How many years have Red Bull been running Renault power now? Were they great in 2015 and the beginning of 2017?

Can we stop pretending only McLaren's chassis performance has fluctuated.

In this instance the fitting of the Renault engine has been specifically blamed.


Yes and you mentioned Red Bull who's chassis last year was designed for the Renault so obviously they didn't have the same problem as McLaren had with installation as the McLaren chassis was designed for a different one. One had to adapt theirs and the other didn't.

And can we stop with the constant peddling of McLaren unwilling to compromise on their chassis with regards to Honda and their engine. Do you seriously think they're going to refuse Honda changes that will compromise the car but then go and compromise it themselves by switching to Renault?

It wasn't plug 'n' play, they had to change the entire rear of the car and extend the wheelbase so why on earth would they deny Honda the same possibility of compromise?

It's just various things I read about the McLaren Honda alliance, also that's an interesting thing you say refuting the constant peddling of McLaren, trying to find articles i found this, just before the start of the 2017 season they forced Honda to change their fuel supplier.

https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/07/02 ... ne-so-bad/


Various things that can't be backed up. Honda themselves explained all changes made over the winters and McLaren compromised their car heavily to switch to Renault so that ridiculous notion of being unwilling to compromise falls flat on its face at the very first hurdle yet is constantly referenced.

And no they didn't force Honda to swap fuel supplier. Esso ditched McHonda for Red Bull after McLaren didn't want to lose money after showing Esso loyalty when Mercedes wanted McLaren to ditch Esso for Petronas, so they wanted the same rate as before but because Honda were so poor Esso wouldn't pay, one of many to jump ship during the Honda disaster and McLaren had to go and get a new supplier.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:37 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Honda had already improved the engine in the second half of the 2017 season but the McLaren was still slow on the straights, the Honda engine that started this season was still down on performance to the Renault engine so it's hard to see that they made a massive gain yet the STR was still appreciable quicker than the McLaren on the straights, even now the McLaren is the slowest of the Renault powered cars on the straight, this lack of straight line speed was as much to do with the car itself then the engine and towards the end of the partnership they exaggerated it even more to show how good the car was and how bad the Honda engines was, I think it was Lotus49 that mentioned it, he's a bit of an ace when it comes to these kind of things.


No that's a Honda apologist line, not mine. McLaren just optimised the car for best overall lap time, not strength on the straight. Just in Canada we had Hartley complaining about the low d/f of the STR again, just like Australia where they didn't run enough wing and killed their tyres.

They did improve in the second half last year but it's still 20kw + less than what STR started this year with which is significant.

McLaren's drag issue this year is directly linked to the suspension change they had to make to switch to Renault. The suspension doesn't work so they have to run more rear d/f which is causing excess drag, finally confirmed by EB in Canada though speculated a lot in recent months and called perfectly by a Mercedes source talking to AMuS in winter testing who said McLaren's unique rear suspension offered an aero benefit but would sacrifice too much mechanical grip and it did.

The optimisation of the car though made it even slower on the straight, Red Bull on the other hand tend to take down force off to make their car more competitive on the straight.


Doesn't matter if it's slower on the straight as long as it's faster overall, it's not a drag race. Red Bull have a better chassis which produces more d/f everywhere I'd imagine, they can do things McLaren can't you'll get no argument from me on that front.

But then we look at the STR that doesn't have good downforce that being given the reason why it has such good straight line speed, that hasn't stopped them scoring 19pts thus far, McLaren scored 30pts last season.


You think the Honda engine today and the one that vibrated so badly it affected gearshifts before Spain last year is comparable? Look at the reliability problems alone McLaren had last year, Alonso had only seen the chequered flag once at this point last year, in Spain.

The best version McLaren had, the one post Monza ers upgrade, was the best Honda had with McLaren and it's still 20kw+(Winter) plus the recent Canada upgrade(27bhp) slower than this one so you're looking at the best part of 40-50bhp slower and yet McLaren scored 19pts in the last 7 races with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:41 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The optimisation of the car though made it even slower on the straight, Red Bull on the other hand tend to take down force off to make their car more competitive on the straight.


Doesn't matter if it's slower on the straight as long as it's faster overall, it's not a drag race. Red Bull have a better chassis which produces more d/f everywhere I'd imagine, they can do things McLaren can't you'll get no argument from me on that front.

But then we look at the STR that doesn't have good downforce that being given the reason why it has such good straight line speed, that hasn't stopped them scoring 19pts thus far, McLaren scored 30pts last season.

It's not sensible to make such a comparison. The PU last year was much worse than the PU this year

It's still the worse PU and apparently it's in a much worse car, so how do STR score all those points in such a scenario?


By finishing the race with a more powerful engine. It's not rocket science.

STR have less points this year than they did last year too so it's not all good news. And yes that's driver related but if we're pretending McLaren had the same Honda engine then we can pretend STR have the same drivers, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:49 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You clearly said by doing this they are losing 14hp so that did make a negative impact on the engine, the superb performance is clearly because of the car itself, as a comparsion when did McLaren get wins and podiums with the Honda engine to be able to credit the McLaren car itself?

It may have given a small bhp loss, but that's fairly nominal when compared to the issues they faced last year. If 14bhp was all they had to worry about they'd still be together now.

Red Bull have been using the fuel for a while now whilst for Honda they had to change at short notice so the impact may have been larger, however the point being it still put Honda in a compromised position, I also believe the article also mentioned it might cause reliability issues, surely an engine manufacturer chooses it's own supplier not the team?

It's not a relevant point, because a) we don't know the impact, b) we don't even know whether Honda were consulted, and c) we have zero idea whether this was something imposed by McLaren against Honda's wishes.

Honda build the engines but McLaren changed the fuel supplier and it was said at fairly short notice, but this wouldn't be any kind of interference by McLaren or detriment to Honda?

You have already given an example how Red Bull having a different fuel supplier to Renault is a detriment to them, also I'm sure I heard McLaren did the same when they had Mercedes engines which also gave them a performance deficit.

So let's theorise Red Bull lose 14hp, Honda gained 13hp when they were able to change the exhaust system in the STR, that's close to 30hp.


You do know Esso dumped McLaren-HONDA,right?

I'm loving how the desertion of sponsors during the Honda nightmare has been put squarely at McLaren's door. The same door that welcomed a raft of new sponsors the minute Honda were dumped.

Coincidence though I suppose.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:53 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
By their own admission Honda weren't aware of the performance gains by changing the exhaust, so it's a stretch to blame McLaren when they had no idea what they were "compromising." As to the fuel supplier: I repeat that you don't have a clue whether Honda were aware of the situation. Or what the impact actually was

I'm not a technical person and I believe you aren't either, however the guy that wrote the article is and he viewed it as not being good for Honda.

he speculated. By his own admission

He didn't speculate he said the late switch to a new fuel supplier would have been a massive blow for Honda.

which was speculation


And a poor one as Renault and Red Bull had no initial difference in performance using Esso and BP according to Dr. Marko so I've no idea why Honda would suffer.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Last edited by Lotus49 on Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:57 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm not a technical person and I believe you aren't either, however the guy that wrote the article is and he viewed it as not being good for Honda.

he speculated. By his own admission

He didn't speculate he said the late switch to a new fuel supplier would have been a massive blow for Honda.

which was speculation

He said it as a fact given his knowledge of the subject matter.


What knowledge? He openly says he didn't even know the combustion process that was taking place, HCCI or TJI, so how on earth can he know the effect that two different fuels would have?

It's speculative and completely ignores the reason Esso left in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:08 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I get your point but seriously would you tag Renault as future Mercedes beaters, even now, maybe 2021 when the rules change?


Back in 2016 I wouldn't have given a dime for anyone's chances to challenge Mercedes in the coming years. But If Alonso would still have been there, that would have been 7 seasons and still a very distant second best falling back to third by the end of the season. Making it logical to lose faith and try something else. Customer teams apart from RBR (who wouldn't have him anyway) aren't attractive, an up and coming works outfit could be more attractive.

Quote:
Also what's to stop Alonso joining Renault next year


That doesn't seem relevant given we're discussing about what would have happened in 2016 if he had still been there.

Quote:
and let's remember that Renault said themselves it would take them 3 years to be competitive, that's not a timeline that would attract Alonso


And you know this how?

Do you think that Alonso went to McLaren with a 3 year timeline to be competitive?


He went knowing he had the possibility of 2015 and 2016, years he had correctly guessed Ferrari couldn't catch Mercedes. That's all, no-one could've expected how badly Honda would start.

He assumed he had two free attempts and even if they failed, McLaren-Honda together would at worst get to Mercedes before Ferrari could. That was the entire point of the gamble.

That and how bad Honda would be, was where he was spectacularly wrong.

In his defence there were things he couldn't have known like Mahle bringing TJI which turned Ferrari around and meant they didn't have to do their own R&D on lean burn while competing like Renault and Honda had to do which is massive and not talked about much, the token system falling apart and not locking Ferrari in to their poor design, the full chassis dyno's becoming so important and Ferrari having a great one after Sergio opened his wallet and McLaren not having one at all, etc..So much went against him after the move.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:34 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm not a technical person and I believe you aren't either, however the guy that wrote the article is and he viewed it as not being good for Honda.

he speculated. By his own admission

He didn't speculate he said the late switch to a new fuel supplier would have been a massive blow for Honda.

which was speculation

He said it as a fact given his knowledge of the subject matter.

what knowledge? As Lotus49 has pointed out, he didn't even know what fuel system they were using, so how could he possibly know what kind of a blow it would have been?

The whole article is one massive piece of guesswork


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:36 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Would that be lead designer?

Zak?

Yep the marketing guy who's new position is going to turn McLaren's fortunes around.

so how was he lead designer?

A joke, the problem is in the design department so they found Zak a new job.

I'm still confused. Are you acknowledging that it's not just about the design department?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:08 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I see your point but McLaren themselves had not won a race since 2012 and the last title was in 2008 and would have a totally unproven engine, if he couldn't see Ferrari turning things around anytime soon why were Mclaren going to do any better?


I think they just offered two bites at a cherry he knew he wasn't going to get at Ferrari. I think he was right that Ferrari would take longer than the duration left on his contract before they could challenge Mercedes and Honda at least offered the chance of hitting the ground running like Mercedes. There was a lot of fuss at the time about the split turbo being key for Mercedes and Honda had it as well,and in general a lot of hype.

That and the disillusionment at Ferrari might have been enough to think it was worth a shot. Lewis's gamble being such a success might have had an influence as well. I think there was a lot of things floating around in that time including the death of Botin and LdM getting ousted.

There was probably dozens of factors.

I was actually thinking the same about what Hamilton did with Mercedes but as a Hamilton fan I thought people would just focus on me trying to big Hamilton up.

Alonso in the past as always gone for the sure thing, he signed for McLaren in 2005 when they had the fastest car, he supposedly was in talks with Ferrari as early as 2008 when they had the fastest car, neither of these worked out for him.

Then he sees Hamilton gamble with a struggling team with a new project and it pays off, so yes that might have interested him in doing something similar.

That being said I think the McLaren Honda offer was just a back up plan, he thought he held all the cards at Ferrari has he tried to negotiate get out clauses in his new contract offer, all the other top drivers were under contract, he never knew about Vettel's get out clause in his Red Bull contract and Alonso got out maneuvered.


I think it's fair to mention in the sense it's one of several factors from the time that could've influenced him.

Not going to do the whole leaving Ferrari/ousted thing again..It's been done to death at least twice in this thread with sources provided and every major players account is the same one, that Alonso lost faith and wanted to go. From Allison to Alonso, Arivabenne to Briatore, none of them contradict it and I'm happy with it.


He was made free to leave, he didn't request it. Otherwise he would not have tried to ask for more money to stay.
In all these years have you heard about Vettel on how the car sucks or how he wishes he could have a Mercedes as Birthday present?

With Alonso when it works, all the credit goes to the guy and he tends to annihilate his teammates with his political games(not just his talent).

After some time, people (like Ing. Forghieri) become tired of it and wish to have a more "neutral"/"just an employee" kind of driver. This is the reason he will NOT drive for Mercedes.

Of course anyone is free to believe that Alonso decided he had enough of Ferrari but the thruth is that his hand was forced, unlike Hamilton when he decided to drive for Mercedes.
In Hamilton's case Ron Dennis went crying and tried to throw more money at Hamilton to convince him to stay with McLaren.
In Alonso's case nothing of the sort happened and many were happy to see him leave.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:39 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I see your point but McLaren themselves had not won a race since 2012 and the last title was in 2008 and would have a totally unproven engine, if he couldn't see Ferrari turning things around anytime soon why were Mclaren going to do any better?


I think they just offered two bites at a cherry he knew he wasn't going to get at Ferrari. I think he was right that Ferrari would take longer than the duration left on his contract before they could challenge Mercedes and Honda at least offered the chance of hitting the ground running like Mercedes. There was a lot of fuss at the time about the split turbo being key for Mercedes and Honda had it as well,and in general a lot of hype.

That and the disillusionment at Ferrari might have been enough to think it was worth a shot. Lewis's gamble being such a success might have had an influence as well. I think there was a lot of things floating around in that time including the death of Botin and LdM getting ousted.

There was probably dozens of factors.

I was actually thinking the same about what Hamilton did with Mercedes but as a Hamilton fan I thought people would just focus on me trying to big Hamilton up.

Alonso in the past as always gone for the sure thing, he signed for McLaren in 2005 when they had the fastest car, he supposedly was in talks with Ferrari as early as 2008 when they had the fastest car, neither of these worked out for him.

Then he sees Hamilton gamble with a struggling team with a new project and it pays off, so yes that might have interested him in doing something similar.

That being said I think the McLaren Honda offer was just a back up plan, he thought he held all the cards at Ferrari has he tried to negotiate get out clauses in his new contract offer, all the other top drivers were under contract, he never knew about Vettel's get out clause in his Red Bull contract and Alonso got out maneuvered.


I think it's fair to mention in the sense it's one of several factors from the time that could've influenced him.

Not going to do the whole leaving Ferrari/ousted thing again..It's been done to death at least twice in this thread with sources provided and every major players account is the same one, that Alonso lost faith and wanted to go. From Allison to Alonso, Arivabenne to Briatore, none of them contradict it and I'm happy with it.


He was made free to leave, he didn't request it. Otherwise he would not have tried to ask for more money to stay.
In all these years have you heard about Vettel on how the car sucks or how he wishes he could have a Mercedes as Birthday present?

With Alonso when it works, all the credit goes to the guy and he tends to annihilate his teammates with his political games(not just his talent).

After some time, people (like Ing. Forghieri) become tired of it and wish to have a more "neutral"/"just an employee" kind of driver. This is the reason he will NOT drive for Mercedes.

Of course anyone is free to believe that Alonso decided he had enough of Ferrari but the thruth is that his hand was forced, unlike Hamilton when he decided to drive for Mercedes.
In Hamilton's case Ron Dennis went crying and tried to throw more money at Hamilton to convince him to stay with McLaren.
In Alonso's case nothing of the sort happened and many were happy to see him leave.


Yeah yeah yeah, the real truth is known by some randoms on the internet and not James Allison of Ferrari, he's just lying coz reasons. Yawn.

And no I haven't heard Seb ask for a Mercedes and nor should he with the cars he's had. You seem to be glossing over the fundamental reason why Alonso would want quicker cars as if he'd be saying it if the team was putting out cars of equal calibre. They weren't and I've no issue with a driver telling it like it is.

Toyota seem to think he's easy to work with. It's almost like the strength of the car can determine the mood of the driver doesn't it.

https://www.motorsport.com/lemans/news/ ... y-1044537/

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:41 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I see your point but McLaren themselves had not won a race since 2012 and the last title was in 2008 and would have a totally unproven engine, if he couldn't see Ferrari turning things around anytime soon why were Mclaren going to do any better?


I think they just offered two bites at a cherry he knew he wasn't going to get at Ferrari. I think he was right that Ferrari would take longer than the duration left on his contract before they could challenge Mercedes and Honda at least offered the chance of hitting the ground running like Mercedes. There was a lot of fuss at the time about the split turbo being key for Mercedes and Honda had it as well,and in general a lot of hype.

That and the disillusionment at Ferrari might have been enough to think it was worth a shot. Lewis's gamble being such a success might have had an influence as well. I think there was a lot of things floating around in that time including the death of Botin and LdM getting ousted.

There was probably dozens of factors.

I was actually thinking the same about what Hamilton did with Mercedes but as a Hamilton fan I thought people would just focus on me trying to big Hamilton up.

Alonso in the past as always gone for the sure thing, he signed for McLaren in 2005 when they had the fastest car, he supposedly was in talks with Ferrari as early as 2008 when they had the fastest car, neither of these worked out for him.

Then he sees Hamilton gamble with a struggling team with a new project and it pays off, so yes that might have interested him in doing something similar.

That being said I think the McLaren Honda offer was just a back up plan, he thought he held all the cards at Ferrari has he tried to negotiate get out clauses in his new contract offer, all the other top drivers were under contract, he never knew about Vettel's get out clause in his Red Bull contract and Alonso got out maneuvered.


I think it's fair to mention in the sense it's one of several factors from the time that could've influenced him.

Not going to do the whole leaving Ferrari/ousted thing again..It's been done to death at least twice in this thread with sources provided and every major players account is the same one, that Alonso lost faith and wanted to go. From Allison to Alonso, Arivabenne to Briatore, none of them contradict it and I'm happy with it.


He was made free to leave, he didn't request it. Otherwise he would not have tried to ask for more money to stay.
In all these years have you heard about Vettel on how the car sucks or how he wishes he could have a Mercedes as Birthday present?

With Alonso when it works, all the credit goes to the guy and he tends to annihilate his teammates with his political games(not just his talent).

After some time, people (like Ing. Forghieri) become tired of it and wish to have a more "neutral"/"just an employee" kind of driver. This is the reason he will NOT drive for Mercedes.

Of course anyone is free to believe that Alonso decided he had enough of Ferrari but the thruth is that his hand was forced, unlike Hamilton when he decided to drive for Mercedes.
In Hamilton's case Ron Dennis went crying and tried to throw more money at Hamilton to convince him to stay with McLaren.
In Alonso's case nothing of the sort happened and many were happy to see him leave.

I don't think that's true. According to SKY he was in talks to extend his contract - see below - but decided to leave because he didn't feel that Ferrari would be competitive in the timeframe he wanted. Even LdM confirmed this. He also felt that Ferrari was in too much turmoil.

Alonso also confirmed speculation that surfaced earlier in the season that the possibility of extending his stay at Maranello had initially been discussed. However, amid a season of on-track underperformance and off-track turmoil at Ferrari in which their Team Principal, President and, now, erstwhile star driver have all departed, Alonso conceded there were certain plans that “I didn't agree so much” with.

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24184/9571114/fernando-alonso-says-ferrari-doubts-started-in-2013-he-asked-to-leave-in-september

Not sure where you get Ron was crying from. He tried to keep his driver shocker


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:16 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

He was made free to leave, he didn't request it. Otherwise he would not have tried to ask for more money to stay.
In all these years have you heard about Vettel on how the car sucks or how he wishes he could have a Mercedes as Birthday present?

With Alonso when it works, all the credit goes to the guy and he tends to annihilate his teammates with his political games(not just his talent).

After some time, people (like Ing. Forghieri) become tired of it and wish to have a more "neutral"/"just an employee" kind of driver. This is the reason he will NOT drive for Mercedes.

Of course anyone is free to believe that Alonso decided he had enough of Ferrari but the thruth is that his hand was forced, unlike Hamilton when he decided to drive for Mercedes.
In Hamilton's case Ron Dennis went crying and tried to throw more money at Hamilton to convince him to stay with McLaren.
In Alonso's case nothing of the sort happened and many were happy to see him leave.


Yeah yeah yeah, the real truth is known by some randoms on the internet and not James Allison of Ferrari, he's just lying coz reasons. Yawn.

And no I haven't heard Seb ask for a Mercedes and nor should he with the cars he's had. You seem to be glossing over the fundamental reason why Alonso would want quicker cars as if he'd be saying it if the team was putting out cars of equal calibre. They weren't and I've no issue with a driver telling it like it is.

Toyota seem to think he's easy to work with. It's almost like the strength of the car can determine the mood of the driver doesn't it.

https://www.motorsport.com/lemans/news/ ... y-1044537/


Lol yeah right you might love Alonso but Toyota will soon realise the destruction Alonso brings to a team and the way he lowers morale in the team.

Below is what engineers get when Alonso joins a team, like he built the car.

https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/1367 ... ional-pole


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:25 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
I don't think that's true. According to SKY he was in talks to extend his contract - see below - but decided to leave because he didn't feel that Ferrari would be competitive in the timeframe he wanted. Even LdM confirmed this. He also felt that Ferrari was in too much turmoil.

Alonso also confirmed speculation that surfaced earlier in the season that the possibility of extending his stay at Maranello had initially been discussed. However, amid a season of on-track underperformance and off-track turmoil at Ferrari in which their Team Principal, President and, now, erstwhile star driver have all departed, Alonso conceded there were certain plans that “I didn't agree so much” with.

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24184/9571114/fernando-alonso-says-ferrari-doubts-started-in-2013-he-asked-to-leave-in-september

Not sure where you get Ron was crying from. He tried to keep his driver shocker


He didn't agree with the Ferrari plans, but somehow Marchionne's track record suggest he turns stuff around see Chrysler, but he then saw Mclaren who was on the downward slope a better place to go.

Fact is he based most of his decision not on actual performance of the team but thinking he was bigger than Ferrari and if he leaves they will be in the doldrums and that reason is why he is where he is today and looking for what to cement his legacy with.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:23 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
No that's a Honda apologist line, not mine. McLaren just optimised the car for best overall lap time, not strength on the straight. Just in Canada we had Hartley complaining about the low d/f of the STR again, just like Australia where they didn't run enough wing and killed their tyres.

They did improve in the second half last year but it's still 20kw + less than what STR started this year with which is significant.

McLaren's drag issue this year is directly linked to the suspension change they had to make to switch to Renault. The suspension doesn't work so they have to run more rear d/f which is causing excess drag, finally confirmed by EB in Canada though speculated a lot in recent months and called perfectly by a Mercedes source talking to AMuS in winter testing who said McLaren's unique rear suspension offered an aero benefit but would sacrifice too much mechanical grip and it did.

The optimisation of the car though made it even slower on the straight, Red Bull on the other hand tend to take down force off to make their car more competitive on the straight.


Doesn't matter if it's slower on the straight as long as it's faster overall, it's not a drag race. Red Bull have a better chassis which produces more d/f everywhere I'd imagine, they can do things McLaren can't you'll get no argument from me on that front.

But then we look at the STR that doesn't have good downforce that being given the reason why it has such good straight line speed, that hasn't stopped them scoring 19pts thus far, McLaren scored 30pts last season.


You think the Honda engine today and the one that vibrated so badly it affected gearshifts before Spain last year is comparable? Look at the reliability problems alone McLaren had last year, Alonso had only seen the chequered flag once at this point last year, in Spain.

The best version McLaren had, the one post Monza ers upgrade, was the best Honda had with McLaren and it's still 20kw+(Winter) plus the recent Canada upgrade(27bhp) slower than this one so you're looking at the best part of 40-50bhp slower and yet McLaren scored 19pts in the last 7 races with it.

Well you can't include the Canada engine which they have only just received and scored no points with it, they scored all their points with the winter upgraded engine.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:24 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Doesn't matter if it's slower on the straight as long as it's faster overall, it's not a drag race. Red Bull have a better chassis which produces more d/f everywhere I'd imagine, they can do things McLaren can't you'll get no argument from me on that front.

But then we look at the STR that doesn't have good downforce that being given the reason why it has such good straight line speed, that hasn't stopped them scoring 19pts thus far, McLaren scored 30pts last season.

It's not sensible to make such a comparison. The PU last year was much worse than the PU this year

It's still the worse PU and apparently it's in a much worse car, so how do STR score all those points in such a scenario?


By finishing the race with a more powerful engine. It's not rocket science.

STR have less points this year than they did last year too so it's not all good news. And yes that's driver related but if we're pretending McLaren had the same Honda engine then we can pretend STR have the same drivers, right?

McLaren had supposedly a much better car and they have Alonso.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:27 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Zak?

Yep the marketing guy who's new position is going to turn McLaren's fortunes around.

so how was he lead designer?

A joke, the problem is in the design department so they found Zak a new job.

I'm still confused. Are you acknowledging that it's not just about the design department?

The article highlighted that the problem was in the design department.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:31 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think they just offered two bites at a cherry he knew he wasn't going to get at Ferrari. I think he was right that Ferrari would take longer than the duration left on his contract before they could challenge Mercedes and Honda at least offered the chance of hitting the ground running like Mercedes. There was a lot of fuss at the time about the split turbo being key for Mercedes and Honda had it as well,and in general a lot of hype.

That and the disillusionment at Ferrari might have been enough to think it was worth a shot. Lewis's gamble being such a success might have had an influence as well. I think there was a lot of things floating around in that time including the death of Botin and LdM getting ousted.

There was probably dozens of factors.

I was actually thinking the same about what Hamilton did with Mercedes but as a Hamilton fan I thought people would just focus on me trying to big Hamilton up.

Alonso in the past as always gone for the sure thing, he signed for McLaren in 2005 when they had the fastest car, he supposedly was in talks with Ferrari as early as 2008 when they had the fastest car, neither of these worked out for him.

Then he sees Hamilton gamble with a struggling team with a new project and it pays off, so yes that might have interested him in doing something similar.

That being said I think the McLaren Honda offer was just a back up plan, he thought he held all the cards at Ferrari has he tried to negotiate get out clauses in his new contract offer, all the other top drivers were under contract, he never knew about Vettel's get out clause in his Red Bull contract and Alonso got out maneuvered.


I think it's fair to mention in the sense it's one of several factors from the time that could've influenced him.

Not going to do the whole leaving Ferrari/ousted thing again..It's been done to death at least twice in this thread with sources provided and every major players account is the same one, that Alonso lost faith and wanted to go. From Allison to Alonso, Arivabenne to Briatore, none of them contradict it and I'm happy with it.


He was made free to leave, he didn't request it. Otherwise he would not have tried to ask for more money to stay.
In all these years have you heard about Vettel on how the car sucks or how he wishes he could have a Mercedes as Birthday present?

With Alonso when it works, all the credit goes to the guy and he tends to annihilate his teammates with his political games(not just his talent).

After some time, people (like Ing. Forghieri) become tired of it and wish to have a more "neutral"/"just an employee" kind of driver. This is the reason he will NOT drive for Mercedes.

Of course anyone is free to believe that Alonso decided he had enough of Ferrari but the thruth is that his hand was forced, unlike Hamilton when he decided to drive for Mercedes.
In Hamilton's case Ron Dennis went crying and tried to throw more money at Hamilton to convince him to stay with McLaren.
In Alonso's case nothing of the sort happened and many were happy to see him leave.


Yeah yeah yeah, the real truth is known by some randoms on the internet and not James Allison of Ferrari, he's just lying coz reasons. Yawn.

And no I haven't heard Seb ask for a Mercedes and nor should he with the cars he's had. You seem to be glossing over the fundamental reason why Alonso would want quicker cars as if he'd be saying it if the team was putting out cars of equal calibre. They weren't and I've no issue with a driver telling it like it is.

Toyota seem to think he's easy to work with. It's almost like the strength of the car can determine the mood of the driver doesn't it.

https://www.motorsport.com/lemans/news/ ... y-1044537/

In WEC you have a team of drivers for the one car so driver politics becomes mute.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think they just offered two bites at a cherry he knew he wasn't going to get at Ferrari. I think he was right that Ferrari would take longer than the duration left on his contract before they could challenge Mercedes and Honda at least offered the chance of hitting the ground running like Mercedes. There was a lot of fuss at the time about the split turbo being key for Mercedes and Honda had it as well,and in general a lot of hype.

That and the disillusionment at Ferrari might have been enough to think it was worth a shot. Lewis's gamble being such a success might have had an influence as well. I think there was a lot of things floating around in that time including the death of Botin and LdM getting ousted.

There was probably dozens of factors.

I was actually thinking the same about what Hamilton did with Mercedes but as a Hamilton fan I thought people would just focus on me trying to big Hamilton up.

Alonso in the past as always gone for the sure thing, he signed for McLaren in 2005 when they had the fastest car, he supposedly was in talks with Ferrari as early as 2008 when they had the fastest car, neither of these worked out for him.

Then he sees Hamilton gamble with a struggling team with a new project and it pays off, so yes that might have interested him in doing something similar.

That being said I think the McLaren Honda offer was just a back up plan, he thought he held all the cards at Ferrari has he tried to negotiate get out clauses in his new contract offer, all the other top drivers were under contract, he never knew about Vettel's get out clause in his Red Bull contract and Alonso got out maneuvered.


I think it's fair to mention in the sense it's one of several factors from the time that could've influenced him.

Not going to do the whole leaving Ferrari/ousted thing again..It's been done to death at least twice in this thread with sources provided and every major players account is the same one, that Alonso lost faith and wanted to go. From Allison to Alonso, Arivabenne to Briatore, none of them contradict it and I'm happy with it.


He was made free to leave, he didn't request it. Otherwise he would not have tried to ask for more money to stay.
In all these years have you heard about Vettel on how the car sucks or how he wishes he could have a Mercedes as Birthday present?

With Alonso when it works, all the credit goes to the guy and he tends to annihilate his teammates with his political games(not just his talent).

After some time, people (like Ing. Forghieri) become tired of it and wish to have a more "neutral"/"just an employee" kind of driver. This is the reason he will NOT drive for Mercedes.

Of course anyone is free to believe that Alonso decided he had enough of Ferrari but the thruth is that his hand was forced, unlike Hamilton when he decided to drive for Mercedes.
In Hamilton's case Ron Dennis went crying and tried to throw more money at Hamilton to convince him to stay with McLaren.
In Alonso's case nothing of the sort happened and many were happy to see him leave.

I don't think that's true. According to SKY he was in talks to extend his contract - see below - but decided to leave because he didn't feel that Ferrari would be competitive in the timeframe he wanted. Even LdM confirmed this. He also felt that Ferrari was in too much turmoil.

Alonso also confirmed speculation that surfaced earlier in the season that the possibility of extending his stay at Maranello had initially been discussed. However, amid a season of on-track underperformance and off-track turmoil at Ferrari in which their Team Principal, President and, now, erstwhile star driver have all departed, Alonso conceded there were certain plans that “I didn't agree so much” with.

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24184/9571114/fernando-alonso-says-ferrari-doubts-started-in-2013-he-asked-to-leave-in-september

Not sure where you get Ron was crying from. He tried to keep his driver shocker

All basically what I've heard before but with some things missing like Alonso was offered a new contract until 2019 but Alonso wanted escape clauses were he could leave after each year, Ferrari refused.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 4th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:27 pm 
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Posts: 22630
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yep the marketing guy who's new position is going to turn McLaren's fortunes around.

so how was he lead designer?

A joke, the problem is in the design department so they found Zak a new job.

I'm still confused. Are you acknowledging that it's not just about the design department?

The article highlighted that the problem was in the design department.

No, it didn't. The McLaren statement specifically said that the changes were part of a broader restructure, which was also reported in several sources


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:18 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The optimisation of the car though made it even slower on the straight, Red Bull on the other hand tend to take down force off to make their car more competitive on the straight.


Doesn't matter if it's slower on the straight as long as it's faster overall, it's not a drag race. Red Bull have a better chassis which produces more d/f everywhere I'd imagine, they can do things McLaren can't you'll get no argument from me on that front.

But then we look at the STR that doesn't have good downforce that being given the reason why it has such good straight line speed, that hasn't stopped them scoring 19pts thus far, McLaren scored 30pts last season.


You think the Honda engine today and the one that vibrated so badly it affected gearshifts before Spain last year is comparable? Look at the reliability problems alone McLaren had last year, Alonso had only seen the chequered flag once at this point last year, in Spain.

The best version McLaren had, the one post Monza ers upgrade, was the best Honda had with McLaren and it's still 20kw+(Winter) plus the recent Canada upgrade(27bhp) slower than this one so you're looking at the best part of 40-50bhp slower and yet McLaren scored 19pts in the last 7 races with it.

Well you can't include the Canada engine which they have only just received and scored no points with it, they scored all their points with the winter upgraded engine.


So just the winter gains then, it's still not the same engine McLaren ran even post Monza so what's your point?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:21 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 4538
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

He was made free to leave, he didn't request it. Otherwise he would not have tried to ask for more money to stay.
In all these years have you heard about Vettel on how the car sucks or how he wishes he could have a Mercedes as Birthday present?

With Alonso when it works, all the credit goes to the guy and he tends to annihilate his teammates with his political games(not just his talent).

After some time, people (like Ing. Forghieri) become tired of it and wish to have a more "neutral"/"just an employee" kind of driver. This is the reason he will NOT drive for Mercedes.

Of course anyone is free to believe that Alonso decided he had enough of Ferrari but the thruth is that his hand was forced, unlike Hamilton when he decided to drive for Mercedes.
In Hamilton's case Ron Dennis went crying and tried to throw more money at Hamilton to convince him to stay with McLaren.
In Alonso's case nothing of the sort happened and many were happy to see him leave.


Yeah yeah yeah, the real truth is known by some randoms on the internet and not James Allison of Ferrari, he's just lying coz reasons. Yawn.

And no I haven't heard Seb ask for a Mercedes and nor should he with the cars he's had. You seem to be glossing over the fundamental reason why Alonso would want quicker cars as if he'd be saying it if the team was putting out cars of equal calibre. They weren't and I've no issue with a driver telling it like it is.

Toyota seem to think he's easy to work with. It's almost like the strength of the car can determine the mood of the driver doesn't it.

https://www.motorsport.com/lemans/news/ ... y-1044537/


Lol yeah right you might love Alonso but Toyota will soon realise the destruction Alonso brings to a team and the way he lowers morale in the team.

Below is what engineers get when Alonso joins a team, like he built the car.

https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/1367 ... ional-pole


I guess we'll find out soon enough.

Sorry what does the link show? All I'm seeing is a story about Nakajima?

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:25 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 4538
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
But then we look at the STR that doesn't have good downforce that being given the reason why it has such good straight line speed, that hasn't stopped them scoring 19pts thus far, McLaren scored 30pts last season.

It's not sensible to make such a comparison. The PU last year was much worse than the PU this year

It's still the worse PU and apparently it's in a much worse car, so how do STR score all those points in such a scenario?


By finishing the race with a more powerful engine. It's not rocket science.

STR have less points this year than they did last year too so it's not all good news. And yes that's driver related but if we're pretending McLaren had the same Honda engine then we can pretend STR have the same drivers, right?

McLaren had supposedly a much better car and they have Alonso.


So? It's not going to help you if the engine is worse and can't finish the race is it?

Most of STR's points come from Bahrain where being best of the rest gave you 4th instead of the normal 7th because of retirements in the top 3 teams, it's not some miracle performance.

Give them one of last years engines and see how well they do.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:32 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 4538
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I was actually thinking the same about what Hamilton did with Mercedes but as a Hamilton fan I thought people would just focus on me trying to big Hamilton up.

Alonso in the past as always gone for the sure thing, he signed for McLaren in 2005 when they had the fastest car, he supposedly was in talks with Ferrari as early as 2008 when they had the fastest car, neither of these worked out for him.

Then he sees Hamilton gamble with a struggling team with a new project and it pays off, so yes that might have interested him in doing something similar.

That being said I think the McLaren Honda offer was just a back up plan, he thought he held all the cards at Ferrari has he tried to negotiate get out clauses in his new contract offer, all the other top drivers were under contract, he never knew about Vettel's get out clause in his Red Bull contract and Alonso got out maneuvered.


I think it's fair to mention in the sense it's one of several factors from the time that could've influenced him.

Not going to do the whole leaving Ferrari/ousted thing again..It's been done to death at least twice in this thread with sources provided and every major players account is the same one, that Alonso lost faith and wanted to go. From Allison to Alonso, Arivabenne to Briatore, none of them contradict it and I'm happy with it.


He was made free to leave, he didn't request it. Otherwise he would not have tried to ask for more money to stay.
In all these years have you heard about Vettel on how the car sucks or how he wishes he could have a Mercedes as Birthday present?

With Alonso when it works, all the credit goes to the guy and he tends to annihilate his teammates with his political games(not just his talent).

After some time, people (like Ing. Forghieri) become tired of it and wish to have a more "neutral"/"just an employee" kind of driver. This is the reason he will NOT drive for Mercedes.

Of course anyone is free to believe that Alonso decided he had enough of Ferrari but the thruth is that his hand was forced, unlike Hamilton when he decided to drive for Mercedes.
In Hamilton's case Ron Dennis went crying and tried to throw more money at Hamilton to convince him to stay with McLaren.
In Alonso's case nothing of the sort happened and many were happy to see him leave.


Yeah yeah yeah, the real truth is known by some randoms on the internet and not James Allison of Ferrari, he's just lying coz reasons. Yawn.

And no I haven't heard Seb ask for a Mercedes and nor should he with the cars he's had. You seem to be glossing over the fundamental reason why Alonso would want quicker cars as if he'd be saying it if the team was putting out cars of equal calibre. They weren't and I've no issue with a driver telling it like it is.

Toyota seem to think he's easy to work with. It's almost like the strength of the car can determine the mood of the driver doesn't it.

https://www.motorsport.com/lemans/news/ ... y-1044537/

In WEC you have a team of drivers for the one car so driver politics becomes mute.


What does that have to do with asking for better cars or taking all the credit for a good car?

Anyway here's an F1 take on it then...https://www.crash.net/f1/news/209845/1/ ... -character

_________________
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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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