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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:45 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
well for starters it's at least debatable whether Hamilton or Vettel are better than Alonso. So I'd question the assumption that they'd get in while Alonso wouldn't.

But the question as a whole is a good one. The top ten is looking pretty crowded and it's quite hard to see who should drop out


Winning four consecutive titles has only been achieved by 2 people in the history of this sport, MSC and Vettel.

Winning four straight from the first Vettel stands in a class of one.

Both guys are at the top of the record books, but emotionally some guy will get ahead of them based on what people think he should have achieved and not actual achievements.

I don't see how, people can say from now till thy kingdom come arguably Alonso is better than Vettel, that's where it will end.

Wait till Vettel wins a title for Ferrari.

Don't get me wrong, I think Vettel's a very good driver. But titles are as much a function of the car a driver has at his disposal than a driver's talent.

Consider: The only thing stoping Piquet from recording a 4th title and reducing Prost to three was the former being called to the pits for a precautionary tyre change. There was nothing wrong with the car. And they knew that doing so would mean a lost title. But they did it just to be safe. But how many people rate Piquet above Prost? Titles aren't the only barometer.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:45 pm 
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Posts: 2000
Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
well for starters it's at least debatable whether Hamilton or Vettel are better than Alonso. So I'd question the assumption that they'd get in while Alonso wouldn't.

But the question as a whole is a good one. The top ten is looking pretty crowded and it's quite hard to see who should drop out


Winning four consecutive titles has only been achieved by 2 people in the history of this sport, MSC and Vettel.

Winning four straight from the first Vettel stands in a class of one.

Both guys are at the top of the record books, but emotionally some guy will get ahead of them based on what people think he should have achieved and not actual achievements.

I don't see how, people can say from now till thy kingdom come arguably Alonso is better than Vettel, that's where it will end.

Wait till Vettel wins a title for Ferrari.


Vettel also holds another record - he's the only reigning WDC to not win a race whilst having their teammate win a race (or 3!). ;)

You're free to judge the drivers by the numbers which are largely dictated by car performance and circumstances. I prefer to at least make an attempt at separating car and driver performance.

For example, it was seasons like 1997 and 1998 which cemented Schumacher as all time great for me even though these season's were ultimately fruitless in terms of championships. It is not the 4 consecutive championships which made him a great, in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:46 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think this is more correct when thinking of greater rather than better. Although I don't think it will be that hard to explain TBH. Vettel and Hamilton had more success but drove more competitive cars. There, I've done it.

Well I think we all appreciate that, the point being mooted of course is will the history books care?


I don't really think it's relevant to the conversation we are having tbh. Moss didn't get any WDC but people still rate him higher than most that did. Regardless even if Hamilton and Vettel's achievements are remembered better it doesn't make Alonso a worse driver.

I think all three could end up in the 10 greatest ever anyway for my money two already are and the third is banging on the door.

Moss is not rated as highly as Fangio or Clark though, even as highly as Stewart.

Today we know the score, will people in 50 years time?


But is rated higher than numerous others who have won championships.

I wouldn't expect Alonso with his two WDC to be rated above Fangio or Clark. Probably not Stewart either.

Yeah it can be a bit like couldhave, wouldhave, shouldhave, titles are always going to have a bit of a weighting as well, Moss is feted but for someone like me that never saw him race it's like were are his titles?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:48 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
There are some people who watched both Fangio and Ascari drive, who claim that Ascari was the better driver. 50 years later, Fangio is placed well above Ascari in every "Top 20 Formula 1 drivers" list you can find. Fangio is usually in the top 3 while Ascari is lucky to be in the top 10.

Vettel is not better than Alonso, and neither is Hamilton, but they will likely be considered better than Alonso in 40 years time. It will be difficult for us to explain to our grandkids why Alonso was actually the best driver of the 2010s in an era where Hamilton and Vettel won everything.


I think this is more correct when thinking of greater rather than better. Although I don't think it will be that hard to explain TBH. Vettel and Hamilton had more success but drove more competitive cars. There, I've done it.

Well I think we all appreciate that, the point being mooted of course is will the history books care?


I don't really think it's relevant to the conversation we are having tbh. Moss didn't get any WDC but people still rate him higher than most that did. Regardless even if Hamilton and Vettel's achievements are remembered better it doesn't make Alonso a worse driver.

I think all three could end up in the 10 greatest ever anyway for my money two already are and the third is banging on the door.


How does Alonso end up in the top 10 greatest ever humour me please.

Fangio Schumacher Senna Prost Stewart Clark Lauda Piquet

Who does Alonso knock out of this? as Vettel and Hamilton definitely getting in when they stop racing.

Then again that's your opinion, personally I wouldn't have Lauda and Piquet that high.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:49 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Rockie wrote:
How does Alonso end up in the top 10 greatest ever humour me please.

Fangio Schumacher Senna Prost Stewart Clark Lauda Piquet

Who does Alonso knock out of this? as Vettel and Hamilton definitely getting in when they stop racing.

Top 5:
Fangio
Clark
Schumacher
Senna
Prost

6-10:
Stewart
Ascari
Alonso
Hamilton
Vettel/Lauda

(in no particular order)

That's not a bad top 10.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:51 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think this is more correct when thinking of greater rather than better. Although I don't think it will be that hard to explain TBH. Vettel and Hamilton had more success but drove more competitive cars. There, I've done it.

Well I think we all appreciate that, the point being mooted of course is will the history books care?


I don't really think it's relevant to the conversation we are having tbh. Moss didn't get any WDC but people still rate him higher than most that did. Regardless even if Hamilton and Vettel's achievements are remembered better it doesn't make Alonso a worse driver.

I think all three could end up in the 10 greatest ever anyway for my money two already are and the third is banging on the door.

Moss is not rated as highly as Fangio or Clark though, even as highly as Stewart.

Today we know the score, will people in 50 years time?


It's not about knowing the score today, it's about the fact questions will be asked in future like if he was the best as you claim why did he go and waste his time at a backmarker? or how was he better than a guy who won 4 straight titles or 9 consecutive races?

It's the same reason why Moss is respected but will not end up on the top ten greatest list.

Failure to achieve success is never rewarded on such list. Except with partisan fans.

Majority of Redbulls success cannot be written without Vettel, First pole position first win first WDC and all four, not leaving out the only winner for Toro Rosso till date.

But won't let FACTS get in the way of emotions.

Well yes you just agreed with what I said.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:56 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
robins13 wrote:

It's not nice to see how little credit that Vettel gets from the likes of Alonso, you threw away the Ferrari seat Alonso.


Looks to me like Alonso is looking up while Vettel is looking down at the ground.

As for the Ferrari seat - it's 2018 now. Alonso's contract expired in 2016.

Vettel gives just as little credit to Alonso. It's a two way street.

I answered this before somewhere, Ferrari had a decent car in 2015, exactly were would Alonso have gone after 2016?

When does Vettel speak bad about Alonso, I've never heard him put Alonso's driving down?


Ferrari fell back to 3rd best car in 2016. I seriously doubt the partnership continues with 7 seasons without a title.

Your statement was "It's not nice to see how little credit that Vettel gets from the likes of Alonso". I never claimed Vettel speaks bad of Alonso. Just that he refuses to give Alonso credit which was most evident in 2012.

Vettel made a lot of mistakes in 2016 and going by Kimi's performances we have to take the view that he qualified poorly in the second half of the season, in Alonso's hands the Ferrari may have looked like the second best car?

I repeat what options would Alonso have had in 2016 that were better than staying at Ferrari?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:01 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Then again that's your opinion, personally I wouldn't have Lauda and Piquet that high.


But you'll have Alonso there not Lauda and Pique ok!


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:01 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
There are some people who watched both Fangio and Ascari drive, who claim that Ascari was the better driver. 50 years later, Fangio is placed well above Ascari in every "Top 20 Formula 1 drivers" list you can find. Fangio is usually in the top 3 while Ascari is lucky to be in the top 10.

Vettel is not better than Alonso, and neither is Hamilton, but they will likely be considered better than Alonso in 40 years time. It will be difficult for us to explain to our grandkids why Alonso was actually the best driver of the 2010s in an era where Hamilton and Vettel won everything.


I think this is more correct when thinking of greater rather than better. Although I don't think it will be that hard to explain TBH. Vettel and Hamilton had more success but drove more competitive cars. There, I've done it.

Well I think we all appreciate that, the point being mooted of course is will the history books care?


I don't really think it's relevant to the conversation we are having tbh. Moss didn't get any WDC but people still rate him higher than most that did. Regardless even if Hamilton and Vettel's achievements are remembered better it doesn't make Alonso a worse driver.

I think all three could end up in the 10 greatest ever anyway for my money two already are and the third is banging on the door.


How does Alonso end up in the top 10 greatest ever humour me please.

Fangio Schumacher Senna Prost Stewart Clark Lauda Piquet

Who does Alonso knock out of this? as Vettel and Hamilton definitely getting in when they stop racing.


Personally I rate Alonso ahead of Lauda and Piquet.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:03 pm 
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Posts: 1648
davidheath461 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
well for starters it's at least debatable whether Hamilton or Vettel are better than Alonso. So I'd question the assumption that they'd get in while Alonso wouldn't.

But the question as a whole is a good one. The top ten is looking pretty crowded and it's quite hard to see who should drop out


Winning four consecutive titles has only been achieved by 2 people in the history of this sport, MSC and Vettel.

Winning four straight from the first Vettel stands in a class of one.

Both guys are at the top of the record books, but emotionally some guy will get ahead of them based on what people think he should have achieved and not actual achievements.

I don't see how, people can say from now till thy kingdom come arguably Alonso is better than Vettel, that's where it will end.

Wait till Vettel wins a title for Ferrari.


Vettel also holds another record - he's the only reigning WDC to not win a race whilst having their teammate win a race (or 3!). ;)

You're free to judge the drivers by the numbers which are largely dictated by car performance and circumstances. I prefer to at least make an attempt at separating car and driver performance.

For example, it was seasons like 1997 and 1998 which cemented Schumacher as all time great for me even though these season's were ultimately fruitless in terms of championships. It is not the 4 consecutive championships which made him a great, in my opinion.


But '08 and '15 for Vettel didn't do it for you for Vettel, as the only season you judge him with is '14 I get you.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:04 pm 
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My top 10 -

Schumacher
Fangio
Senna
Clark
Prost
Stewart
Alonso
Ascari
Hamilton
Vettel

Lauda, Piquet and Moss would be the next three.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:05 pm 
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Posts: 14225
Rockie wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
well for starters it's at least debatable whether Hamilton or Vettel are better than Alonso. So I'd question the assumption that they'd get in while Alonso wouldn't.

But the question as a whole is a good one. The top ten is looking pretty crowded and it's quite hard to see who should drop out


Winning four consecutive titles has only been achieved by 2 people in the history of this sport, MSC and Vettel.

Winning four straight from the first Vettel stands in a class of one.

Both guys are at the top of the record books, but emotionally some guy will get ahead of them based on what people think he should have achieved and not actual achievements.

I don't see how, people can say from now till thy kingdom come arguably Alonso is better than Vettel, that's where it will end.

Wait till Vettel wins a title for Ferrari.


Vettel also holds another record - he's the only reigning WDC to not win a race whilst having their teammate win a race (or 3!). ;)

You're free to judge the drivers by the numbers which are largely dictated by car performance and circumstances. I prefer to at least make an attempt at separating car and driver performance.

For example, it was seasons like 1997 and 1998 which cemented Schumacher as all time great for me even though these season's were ultimately fruitless in terms of championships. It is not the 4 consecutive championships which made him a great, in my opinion.


But '08 and '15 for Vettel didn't do it for you for Vettel, as the only season you judge him with is '14 I get you.


He crashed four times in a row in 08. You can't seriously be comparing it to Schumacher's 97 or 98 seasons?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:05 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Vettel made a lot of mistakes in 2016 and going by Kimi's performances we have to take the view that he qualified poorly in the second half of the season, in Alonso's hands the Ferrari may have looked like the second best car?

I repeat what options would Alonso have had in 2016 that were better than staying at Ferrari?


Mclaren, Renault, Mercedes (outside shot). Remember some people were predicting Mclaren to leapfrog Ferrari with the new 2017 regs and improved Honda engine.

You're also assuming Alonso would have had a choice. Do you think Ferrari will re sign a driver in his mid 30s when there has been no championships for the last 7 seasons? It's not a given.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:09 pm 
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Posts: 1648
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

How does Alonso end up in the top 10 greatest ever humour me please.

Fangio Schumacher Senna Prost Stewart Clark Lauda Piquet

Who does Alonso knock out of this? as Vettel and Hamilton definitely getting in when they stop racing.


Personally I rate Alonso ahead of Lauda and Piquet.


But personal opinions will never be used for the greatest in any sport.

The greats never have a shoulda coulda woulda about them, they just go out and get it done, they have their lows but their highs overshadow the lows.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:13 pm 
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Posts: 1648
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
well for starters it's at least debatable whether Hamilton or Vettel are better than Alonso. So I'd question the assumption that they'd get in while Alonso wouldn't.

But the question as a whole is a good one. The top ten is looking pretty crowded and it's quite hard to see who should drop out


Winning four consecutive titles has only been achieved by 2 people in the history of this sport, MSC and Vettel.

Winning four straight from the first Vettel stands in a class of one.

Both guys are at the top of the record books, but emotionally some guy will get ahead of them based on what people think he should have achieved and not actual achievements.

I don't see how, people can say from now till thy kingdom come arguably Alonso is better than Vettel, that's where it will end.

Wait till Vettel wins a title for Ferrari.


Vettel also holds another record - he's the only reigning WDC to not win a race whilst having their teammate win a race (or 3!). ;)

You're free to judge the drivers by the numbers which are largely dictated by car performance and circumstances. I prefer to at least make an attempt at separating car and driver performance.

For example, it was seasons like 1997 and 1998 which cemented Schumacher as all time great for me even though these season's were ultimately fruitless in terms of championships. It is not the 4 consecutive championships which made him a great, in my opinion.


But '08 and '15 for Vettel didn't do it for you for Vettel, as the only season you judge him with is '14 I get you.


He crashed four times in a row in 08. You can't seriously be comparing it to Schumacher's 97 or 98 seasons?


Yes with Vettel, I'll pick a particular part of the season and hold on to that, should Max go on and do well for the rest of this season and beating his team mate will you hold on to this first races as being the actual decider of his season?

And Vettel was run into at the first corner on the four occasions one was brake failure if I remember correctly.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:15 pm 
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It's hard for me to seriously compare current drivers to drivers whose careers I barely saw, where all I can go by is what people say and what I've read, plus some documentaries and such.

KingVoid's top ten nonetheless looks decent to me as long as there's scope for currently active drivers with unfinished careers have the scope to go up the list should they continue to prove themselves. It does make sense to give benefit of the doubt to all-time greats who have their stories fully written.

From who I've seen, and I can't improve Senna because I only watched his races as a not terribly conscious child, the best in chronological order are Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel. That's pretty obvious to state.

I have no idea if these guys should stand above the likes of Lauda and Piquet, but know that it's generally agreed that those two are below the likes of Prost and Senna, all of which had some overlap. In terms of probability, it would make sense to me that of Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel that a couple of them likely will be in the Prost-Senna ballpark and another couple in the Piquet-Lauda ballpark, or at least a split somewhere amid the group of four.

I'm guessing, despite still personally finding even finer discrimination in their lists, that most would have Schumacher (definitely) and Alonso (probably) in the league of Prost and Senna as racers; and that most would have Hamilton and Vettel in the league of Lauda and Piquet as racers.

My main point is that probability would tend to dictate that each "era" will produce very special (maybe Schumacher) and very good (maybe Vettel) drivers. So which of the current greats is perhaps in that truly special league of racer? Perhaps none of them? Likely one of them? Or might we have a trio who isn't quite on the Senna-Schumacher level but are a notch above the likes of Piquet, Lauda, and dare I say Mansell?

... I best also sound like I'm on topic right?

It's pretty obvious why Alonso is bitter toward Vettel given what happened in their Championship battles and now how competitive Vettel is in a Ferrari which Alonso used to drive for. Vettel's dislike is more a natural response to Alonso's belligerence on and off the track.

Alonso likely has the more complete skillset on the track but there's something to be said for career management and team dynamics and Vettel likely has him beat there.


Last edited by Invade on Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:16 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Then again that's your opinion, personally I wouldn't have Lauda and Piquet that high.


But you'll have Alonso there not Lauda and Pique ok!

I would yes, in his early 30s Lauda got beat by John Watson two seasons in a row and then went on to be nominally slower than Prost.

Piquet may make the top 10 but it gets to the point who do you leave out?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:16 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

How does Alonso end up in the top 10 greatest ever humour me please.

Fangio Schumacher Senna Prost Stewart Clark Lauda Piquet

Who does Alonso knock out of this? as Vettel and Hamilton definitely getting in when they stop racing.


Personally I rate Alonso ahead of Lauda and Piquet.


But personal opinions will never be used for the greatest in any sport.

The greats never have a shoulda coulda woulda about them, they just go out and get it done, they have their lows but their highs overshadow the lows.


Erm, personal opinions are used to discuss the greatest in every single sport....

As there's no factual way to prove it there has to be. Especially in a sport like F1 where the drivers are not the only factor.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:17 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
My top 10 -

Schumacher
Fangio
Senna
Clark
Prost
Stewart
Alonso
Ascari
Hamilton
Vettel

Lauda, Piquet and Moss would be the next three.

A good top 10

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:22 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
well for starters it's at least debatable whether Hamilton or Vettel are better than Alonso. So I'd question the assumption that they'd get in while Alonso wouldn't.

But the question as a whole is a good one. The top ten is looking pretty crowded and it's quite hard to see who should drop out


Winning four consecutive titles has only been achieved by 2 people in the history of this sport, MSC and Vettel.

Winning four straight from the first Vettel stands in a class of one.

Both guys are at the top of the record books, but emotionally some guy will get ahead of them based on what people think he should have achieved and not actual achievements.

I don't see how, people can say from now till thy kingdom come arguably Alonso is better than Vettel, that's where it will end.

Wait till Vettel wins a title for Ferrari.


Vettel also holds another record - he's the only reigning WDC to not win a race whilst having their teammate win a race (or 3!). ;)

You're free to judge the drivers by the numbers which are largely dictated by car performance and circumstances. I prefer to at least make an attempt at separating car and driver performance.

For example, it was seasons like 1997 and 1998 which cemented Schumacher as all time great for me even though these season's were ultimately fruitless in terms of championships. It is not the 4 consecutive championships which made him a great, in my opinion.


But '08 and '15 for Vettel didn't do it for you for Vettel, as the only season you judge him with is '14 I get you.


He crashed four times in a row in 08. You can't seriously be comparing it to Schumacher's 97 or 98 seasons?

2008 because Vettel won a wet race it seems, how many races has Vettel won since in the wet, one day the penny might drop that the car was quite good in those conditions, his teammate, who got beat by the rookie Buemi the following season, qualified 4th but stalled at the start.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:28 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

How does Alonso end up in the top 10 greatest ever humour me please.

Fangio Schumacher Senna Prost Stewart Clark Lauda Piquet

Who does Alonso knock out of this? as Vettel and Hamilton definitely getting in when they stop racing.


Personally I rate Alonso ahead of Lauda and Piquet.


But personal opinions will never be used for the greatest in any sport.

The greats never have a shoulda coulda woulda about them, they just go out and get it done, they have their lows but their highs overshadow the lows.


Erm, personal opinions are used to discuss the greatest in every single sport....

As there's no factual way to prove it there has to be. Especially in a sport like F1 where the drivers are not the only factor.


Name me a sport where personal opinions are used?

Not even in the F1 hall of fame is it used.

To even get in there, you have t be a WDC, for the greats I repeat no way you look at F1 record books and you put Alonso before any of these guys.

It took Hamilton a while to realise the quicker you get a good car and rack up the numbers the better.

At one point in time he was like he didn't want to win like Vettel.

Sampras Federer Messi Ronaldo Pele Maradona, Zidane Charlton and many more, all win and thats what matters the rest is personal opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:31 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Vettel made a lot of mistakes in 2016 and going by Kimi's performances we have to take the view that he qualified poorly in the second half of the season, in Alonso's hands the Ferrari may have looked like the second best car?

I repeat what options would Alonso have had in 2016 that were better than staying at Ferrari?


Mclaren, Renault, Mercedes (outside shot). Remember some people were predicting Mclaren to leapfrog Ferrari with the new 2017 regs and improved Honda engine.

You're also assuming Alonso would have had a choice. Do you think Ferrari will re sign a driver in his mid 30s when there has been no championships for the last 7 seasons? It's not a given.

Alonso who wanted rid of the Honda engine would have walked into a team with the Honda engine, was it 2016 when he said GP2 engine?

Joining at the beginning might be forgivable but halfway through a struggling project not so much.

Mercedes could have signed Alonso for this year, they didn't, Renault said they were not ready to sign Alonso for this year so they hardly were going to sign him for 2017.

In 2014 Ferrari offered to extend Alonso's contract until 2019 so age was never going to be a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:32 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

How does Alonso end up in the top 10 greatest ever humour me please.

Fangio Schumacher Senna Prost Stewart Clark Lauda Piquet

Who does Alonso knock out of this? as Vettel and Hamilton definitely getting in when they stop racing.


Personally I rate Alonso ahead of Lauda and Piquet.


But personal opinions will never be used for the greatest in any sport.

The greats never have a shoulda coulda woulda about them, they just go out and get it done, they have their lows but their highs overshadow the lows.


Erm, personal opinions are used to discuss the greatest in every single sport....

As there's no factual way to prove it there has to be. Especially in a sport like F1 where the drivers are not the only factor.


Name me a sport where personal opinions are used?

Not even in the F1 hall of fame is it used.

To even get in there, you have t be a WDC, for the greats I repeat no way you look at F1 record books and you put Alonso before any of these guys.

It took Hamilton a while to realise the quicker you get a good car and rack up the numbers the better.

At one point in time he was like he didn't want to win like Vettel.

Sampras Federer Messi Ronaldo Pele Maradona, Zidane Charlton and many more, all win and thats what matters the rest is personal opinion.


Every sport. Who is the greatest footballer? Messi? Maradona? Ronaldo? Pele? Cruyft? Which one is factually better?

It's all opinions.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:33 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

How does Alonso end up in the top 10 greatest ever humour me please.

Fangio Schumacher Senna Prost Stewart Clark Lauda Piquet

Who does Alonso knock out of this? as Vettel and Hamilton definitely getting in when they stop racing.


Personally I rate Alonso ahead of Lauda and Piquet.


But personal opinions will never be used for the greatest in any sport.

The greats never have a shoulda coulda woulda about them, they just go out and get it done, they have their lows but their highs overshadow the lows.


Erm, personal opinions are used to discuss the greatest in every single sport....

As there's no factual way to prove it there has to be. Especially in a sport like F1 where the drivers are not the only factor.


Name me a sport where personal opinions are used?

Not even in the F1 hall of fame is it used.

To even get in there, you have t be a WDC, for the greats I repeat no way you look at F1 record books and you put Alonso before any of these guys.

It took Hamilton a while to realise the quicker you get a good car and rack up the numbers the better.

At one point in time he was like he didn't want to win like Vettel.

Sampras Federer Messi Ronaldo Pele Maradona, Zidane Charlton and many more, all win and thats what matters the rest is personal opinion.


Personal opinions are used to judge the greats in every sport, and as has been stated before (but you choose to ignore) F1 is a bit different from football and tennis in that it is primarily an engineering sport.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
2008 because Vettel won a wet race it seems, how many races has Vettel won since in the wet, one day the penny might drop that the car was quite good in those conditions, his teammate, who got beat by the rookie Buemi the following season, qualified 4th but stalled at the start.


China '09 was wet, Japan '08 was 3rd in a TR before Hamilton was erratic behind the SC, Brazil '08 that's from the top of my head.

Yeah like that was easy to win, you keep saying his team mate qualified 4th a bit of context is need here, Vettel outqualified his team mate by 1 second.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:36 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

Every sport. Who is the greatest footballer? Messi? Maradona? Ronaldo? Pele? Cruyft? Which one is factually better?

It's all opinions.


Which one of the above is not a great based on impact and results on the game?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:38 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:

Personal opinions are used to judge the greats in every sport, and as has been stated before (but you choose to ignore) F1 is a bit different from football and tennis in that it is primarily an engineering sport.



Personal opinion are never used to judge the greats, they are greats because of what they have achieved in the sport.

Driver rankings can be personal opinion, but not being a great of the sport.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:40 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:

Personal opinions are used to judge the greats in every sport, and as has been stated before (but you choose to ignore) F1 is a bit different from football and tennis in that it is primarily an engineering sport.



Personal opinion are never used to judge the greats, they are greats because of what they have achieved in the sport.

Driver rankings can be personal opinion, but not being a great of the sport.


ironically, that's your opinion. Not everyone will share it.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:43 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Every sport. Who is the greatest footballer? Messi? Maradona? Ronaldo? Pele? Cruyft? Which one is factually better?

It's all opinions.


Which one of the above is not a great based on impact and results on the game?


Maradona and Zidane in terms of numbers, are well behind the likes of Messi and Ronaldo. Does it mean that Messi and Ronaldo are automatically better players than Maradona and Zidane.

Same way that Alonso only has half the number of titles that Vettel has. Does this mean that Vettel is twice is good as Alonso? probably not.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:44 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Every sport. Who is the greatest footballer? Messi? Maradona? Ronaldo? Pele? Cruyft? Which one is factually better?

It's all opinions.


Which one of the above is not a great based on impact and results on the game?


If it's a fact then why are you asking for my opinion. If it is a fact we would already both know.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:51 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Every sport. Who is the greatest footballer? Messi? Maradona? Ronaldo? Pele? Cruyft? Which one is factually better?

It's all opinions.


Which one of the above is not a great based on impact and results on the game?


Maradona and Zidane in terms of numbers, are well behind the likes of Messi and Ronaldo. Does it mean that Messi and Ronaldo are automatically better players than Maradona and Zidane.

Same way that Alonso only has half the number of titles that Vettel has. Does this mean that Vettel is twice is good as Alonso? probably not.


With what the ballon d or, Worldcup or goals?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:51 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
2008 because Vettel won a wet race it seems, how many races has Vettel won since in the wet, one day the penny might drop that the car was quite good in those conditions, his teammate, who got beat by the rookie Buemi the following season, qualified 4th but stalled at the start.


China '09 was wet, Japan '08 was 3rd in a TR before Hamilton was erratic behind the SC, Brazil '08 that's from the top of my head.

Yeah like that was easy to win, you keep saying his team mate qualified 4th a bit of context is need here, Vettel outqualified his team mate by 1 second.

Again 2008 when the car was good in the wet, again a driver considered not good enough for F1 qualified 4th despite the gap to Vettel, so you're saying that China 2009 is the last race that Vettel won in the wet?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:53 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Every sport. Who is the greatest footballer? Messi? Maradona? Ronaldo? Pele? Cruyft? Which one is factually better?

It's all opinions.


Which one of the above is not a great based on impact and results on the game?


If it's a fact then why are you asking for my opinion. If it is a fact we would already both know.


I was not asking for your opinion, I was waiting for your facts to debunk any one of them being a great.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:54 pm 
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Vettel was regarded by many as the driver of the season in 2015, when he won 3 races against a dominant car.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:02 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Vettel was regarded by many as the driver of the season in 2015, when he won 3 races against a dominant car.

A dominant car that finished 6th and 8th in Hungary and 4th in Singapore.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:02 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
2008 because Vettel won a wet race it seems, how many races has Vettel won since in the wet, one day the penny might drop that the car was quite good in those conditions, his teammate, who got beat by the rookie Buemi the following season, qualified 4th but stalled at the start.


China '09 was wet, Japan '08 was 3rd in a TR before Hamilton was erratic behind the SC, Brazil '08 that's from the top of my head.

Yeah like that was easy to win, you keep saying his team mate qualified 4th a bit of context is need here, Vettel outqualified his team mate by 1 second.

Again 2008 when the car was good in the wet, again a driver considered not good enough for F1 qualified 4th despite the gap to Vettel, so you're saying that China 2009 is the last race that Vettel won in the wet?


Yeah outqualifying your team mate by a second in the wet is an easy fit, right there you are diminishing Vettel's achievement just like Alonso.

Even in his worst season '14 in the wet he nearly beat the Mercedes to pole by less than a tenth, I cant start looking for his wet races.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:05 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel was regarded by many as the driver of the season in 2015, when he won 3 races against a dominant car.

A dominant car that finished 6th and 8th in Hungary and 4th in Singapore.


As those were the only 2 races in '15.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:11 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
2008 because Vettel won a wet race it seems, how many races has Vettel won since in the wet, one day the penny might drop that the car was quite good in those conditions, his teammate, who got beat by the rookie Buemi the following season, qualified 4th but stalled at the start.


China '09 was wet, Japan '08 was 3rd in a TR before Hamilton was erratic behind the SC, Brazil '08 that's from the top of my head.

Yeah like that was easy to win, you keep saying his team mate qualified 4th a bit of context is need here, Vettel outqualified his team mate by 1 second.

Again 2008 when the car was good in the wet, again a driver considered not good enough for F1 qualified 4th despite the gap to Vettel, so you're saying that China 2009 is the last race that Vettel won in the wet?


Yeah outqualifying your team mate by a second in the wet is an easy fit, right there you are diminishing Vettel's achievement just like Alonso.

Even in his worst season '14 in the wet he nearly beat the Mercedes to pole by less than a tenth, I cant start looking for his wet races.

His teammate was Bourdais, you pick out a wet win from 2009 and a qualifying session from 2014, in context a rookie called Bottas qualified the back of the grid Williams 4th in a wet qualifying session, Bottas who got out qualified by Hamilton last year by 2 seconds in the wet qualifying at Monza.

The myth that Vettel won a wet race in a midfield car all on his own merit whilst in front running cars how many wet wins has he had?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:12 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel was regarded by many as the driver of the season in 2015, when he won 3 races against a dominant car.

A dominant car that finished 6th and 8th in Hungary and 4th in Singapore.

I agree that in Singapore Mercedes lacked pace, but in Hungary, their poor finishing position was because of the drivers.

The 2015 Mercedes was dominant on average, but of course their performance varied in individual races.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:13 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel was regarded by many as the driver of the season in 2015, when he won 3 races against a dominant car.

A dominant car that finished 6th and 8th in Hungary and 4th in Singapore.


As those were the only 2 races in '15.

That was 2 races were Vettel won and other cars beat the Mercedes cars as well.

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