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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:14 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
The myth that Vettel won a wet race in a midfield car all on his own merit whilst in front running cars how many wet wins has he had?

Monza 2008, China 2009, Malaysia 2013.

He’s had some bad luck in wet races though. He was leading in Australia 2010, Korea 2010 and Britain 2011 before something outside of his control went wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:17 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel was regarded by many as the driver of the season in 2015, when he won 3 races against a dominant car.

A dominant car that finished 6th and 8th in Hungary and 4th in Singapore.

I agree that in Singapore Mercedes lacked pace, but in Hungary, their poor finishing position was because of the drivers.

The 2015 Mercedes was dominant on average, but of course their performance varied in individual races.

Well that's the same as the Mercedes drivers being responsible for Verstappen winning in 2016 but that wouldn't necessarily put him forward as driver of the season?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:29 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel was regarded by many as the driver of the season in 2015, when he won 3 races against a dominant car.

A dominant car that finished 6th and 8th in Hungary and 4th in Singapore.

I agree that in Singapore Mercedes lacked pace, but in Hungary, their poor finishing position was because of the drivers.

The 2015 Mercedes was dominant on average, but of course their performance varied in individual races.

Well that's the same as the Mercedes drivers being responsible for Verstappen winning in 2016 but that wouldn't necessarily put him forward as driver of the season?

Vettel was very consistent in 2015 too. He was actually ahead of Rosberg in the WDC standings until Mexico.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:32 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The myth that Vettel won a wet race in a midfield car all on his own merit whilst in front running cars how many wet wins has he had?

Monza 2008, China 2009, Malaysia 2013.

He’s had some bad luck in wet races though. He was leading in Australia 2010, Korea 2010 and Britain 2011 before something outside of his control went wrong.

Australia 2010 was a dry race, the first few laps were wet, same for Malaysia 2013, Britain 2011 the track was never fully wet and dried out, Korea 2010 was a wet race and Vettel's engine blew up whilst leading.

So since Monza 2008 Vettel has only had 1 wet win, with better luck he would have 2 wins, so how much was 2008 Vettel or the car?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:34 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel was regarded by many as the driver of the season in 2015, when he won 3 races against a dominant car.

A dominant car that finished 6th and 8th in Hungary and 4th in Singapore.

I agree that in Singapore Mercedes lacked pace, but in Hungary, their poor finishing position was because of the drivers.

The 2015 Mercedes was dominant on average, but of course their performance varied in individual races.

Well that's the same as the Mercedes drivers being responsible for Verstappen winning in 2016 but that wouldn't necessarily put him forward as driver of the season?

Vettel was very consistent in 2015 too. He was actually ahead of Rosberg in the WDC standings until Mexico.

That I agree with however the 3 wins against a dominant car being proof of him being driver of the season I would say is a bit misleading.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 1:14 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Yeah the whole "Alonso would do this" or "Alonso would do that" thing has been tired for years. People talk about what he would have done in such and such a situation as if they know it for a fact. Alonso is performing very well this year IMO for the record but he is far and away the best driver among the midfield teams he is racing against. It makes him look even better than he is. If he were up front, he'd be up against guys who are on his level and he would have to be much more on the limit. We do NOT know how he would be doing right now were he up there on one of those teams.


The thing is... you don't know for sure about the highlighted part any more than those who claim that "Alonso would do this" or "Alonso would do that"... both arguments are a matter of opinion. nothing more. You have made a statement as if it were "a fact", exactly what you are criticizing the Alonso supporters of having done for years.

In my opinion, and yes it is but an opinion, Alonso is the best driver of this era, but not the most successful as far as records are concerned.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 1:33 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

But is rated higher than numerous others who have won championships.

I wouldn't expect Alonso with his two WDC to be rated above Fangio or Clark. Probably not Stewart either.

Yeah it can be a bit like couldhave, wouldhave, shouldhave, titles are always going to have a bit of a weighting as well, Moss is feted but for someone like me that never saw him race it's like were are his titles?


It comes down to how how "greatness" is being defined. If the primary criteria is WDCs, then of course Moss, Gilles, Ronnie, and probably Alonso are going to be "forgotten" If a Top 10 is the best drivers of all-time, then any of those should not be dismissed for lack of titles. Having been in the most dominate/competitive cars over a career does not necessarily make one the greater driver.

As you say, poker, you never had the honor of seeing Moss drive, nor are there a great number of videos of quality to go back and study. In all sincerity, I wish you and most of of PF1's F1 fans could have seen him... and Fangio, Ascari, Clark, Gurney, G.Hill, Surtees, Ronnie and Gilles and so many more. I feel very blessed in that respect. At some point in the future, you and others will be trying to keep the likes of Schumi, Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel in the minds of younger racing fans making new Top 10 lists based on the drivers they are currently fans of. The one big advantage you will have is the extensive media coverage that we have today. I won't be around to see it (the price paid for having been around to see Clark & Gurney!), but I hope that some of you will also keep the pre-2000 drivers in minds of your kids and those to come.
:nod:

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 1:41 am 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel was regarded by many as the driver of the season in 2015, when he won 3 races against a dominant car.

A dominant car that finished 6th and 8th in Hungary and 4th in Singapore.

I'm no Vettel fan but that was a legit win in Hungary. Merc didn't end up back there because of pace

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:57 am 
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Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Yeah the whole "Alonso would do this" or "Alonso would do that" thing has been tired for years. People talk about what he would have done in such and such a situation as if they know it for a fact. Alonso is performing very well this year IMO for the record but he is far and away the best driver among the midfield teams he is racing against. It makes him look even better than he is. If he were up front, he'd be up against guys who are on his level and he would have to be much more on the limit. We do NOT know how he would be doing right now were he up there on one of those teams.


The thing is... you don't know for sure about the highlighted part any more than those who claim that "Alonso would do this" or "Alonso would do that"... both arguments are a matter of opinion. nothing more. You have made a statement as if it were "a fact", exactly what you are criticizing the Alonso supporters of having done for years.

In my opinion, and yes it is but an opinion, Alonso is the best driver of this era, but not the most successful as far as records are concerned.

Sadly, Alonso's 'lack' of titles is entirely his own fault.

Consequently, I suspect he won't end up considered as one of the top 10 all time greats.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 4:24 am 
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Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Yeah the whole "Alonso would do this" or "Alonso would do that" thing has been tired for years. People talk about what he would have done in such and such a situation as if they know it for a fact. Alonso is performing very well this year IMO for the record but he is far and away the best driver among the midfield teams he is racing against. It makes him look even better than he is. If he were up front, he'd be up against guys who are on his level and he would have to be much more on the limit. We do NOT know how he would be doing right now were he up there on one of those teams.


The thing is... you don't know for sure about the highlighted part any more than those who claim that "Alonso would do this" or "Alonso would do that"... both arguments are a matter of opinion. nothing more. You have made a statement as if it were "a fact", exactly what you are criticizing the Alonso supporters of having done for years.

In my opinion, and yes it is but an opinion, Alonso is the best driver of this era, but not the most successful as far as records are concerned.

Most elite drivers are on top teams battling with other elite drivers for championships. Alonso is on a midfield team battling mediocre drivers for points. The gap between him and the guys he's competing against is huge. Were he at one of the top 3 teams, it wouldn't be. That's not really an opinion at all is it? It's a fact.

Your opinion that Alonso is the best driver of his time is a valid opinion. I place him among the top 10 all time and top 2 of his era. The point is that, more than any other driver (even other top drivers) his fans seek to give him credit for hypothetical achievements while debasing the actual achievements of others.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 4:49 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Yeah the whole "Alonso would do this" or "Alonso would do that" thing has been tired for years. People talk about what he would have done in such and such a situation as if they know it for a fact. Alonso is performing very well this year IMO for the record but he is far and away the best driver among the midfield teams he is racing against. It makes him look even better than he is. If he were up front, he'd be up against guys who are on his level and he would have to be much more on the limit. We do NOT know how he would be doing right now were he up there on one of those teams.


The thing is... you don't know for sure about the highlighted part any more than those who claim that "Alonso would do this" or "Alonso would do that"... both arguments are a matter of opinion. nothing more. You have made a statement as if it were "a fact", exactly what you are criticizing the Alonso supporters of having done for years.

In my opinion, and yes it is but an opinion, Alonso is the best driver of this era, but not the most successful as far as records are concerned.

Sadly, Alonso's 'lack' of titles is entirely his own fault.

Consequently, I suspect he won't end up considered as one of the top 10 all time greats.

Not entirely true

Personally I reckon he's a slam dunk for Top 10. Along with Hamilton

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 10:57 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Yeah the whole "Alonso would do this" or "Alonso would do that" thing has been tired for years. People talk about what he would have done in such and such a situation as if they know it for a fact. Alonso is performing very well this year IMO for the record but he is far and away the best driver among the midfield teams he is racing against. It makes him look even better than he is. If he were up front, he'd be up against guys who are on his level and he would have to be much more on the limit. We do NOT know how he would be doing right now were he up there on one of those teams.


The thing is... you don't know for sure about the highlighted part any more than those who claim that "Alonso would do this" or "Alonso would do that"... both arguments are a matter of opinion. nothing more. You have made a statement as if it were "a fact", exactly what you are criticizing the Alonso supporters of having done for years.

In my opinion, and yes it is but an opinion, Alonso is the best driver of this era, but not the most successful as far as records are concerned.

Most elite drivers are on top teams battling with other elite drivers for championships. Alonso is on a midfield team battling mediocre drivers for points. The gap between him and the guys he's competing against is huge. Were he at one of the top 3 teams, it wouldn't be. That's not really an opinion at all is it? It's a fact.

Your opinion that Alonso is the best driver of his time is a valid opinion. I place him among the top 10 all time and top 2 of his era. The point is that, more than any other driver (even other top drivers) his fans seek to give him credit for hypothetical achievements while debasing the actual achievements of others.


Exactly.
The only person with a higher opinion of Alonso than most of his fans is, Alonso.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:08 am 
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I still don't understand how Alonso is the best of his generation, what generation exactly?

Will that be in the '00's or '10's?

As in the '00's we had MSC.

In the '10's it's been between Vettel and Hamilton so I'm wondering exactly which era Alonso has been the best in? Folks confusing what could have been to what actually happened.

What we have is peoples opinion and campaign by commentators of "I wonder what Alonso will be doing in that car" if you are good enough top teams will go out of their way to sign you.

After the worst season of his career so far, Ferrari went out to sign Vettel and buy Alonso out of the last year to build a new future, hence why he ended up at Mclaren.

Same way Mercedes went after Hamilton, after Vettel turning them down in '13.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:18 am 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Yeah the whole "Alonso would do this" or "Alonso would do that" thing has been tired for years. People talk about what he would have done in such and such a situation as if they know it for a fact. Alonso is performing very well this year IMO for the record but he is far and away the best driver among the midfield teams he is racing against. It makes him look even better than he is. If he were up front, he'd be up against guys who are on his level and he would have to be much more on the limit. We do NOT know how he would be doing right now were he up there on one of those teams.


The thing is... you don't know for sure about the highlighted part any more than those who claim that "Alonso would do this" or "Alonso would do that"... both arguments are a matter of opinion. nothing more. You have made a statement as if it were "a fact", exactly what you are criticizing the Alonso supporters of having done for years.

In my opinion, and yes it is but an opinion, Alonso is the best driver of this era, but not the most successful as far as records are concerned.

Most elite drivers are on top teams battling with other elite drivers for championships. Alonso is on a midfield team battling mediocre drivers for points. The gap between him and the guys he's competing against is huge. Were he at one of the top 3 teams, it wouldn't be. That's not really an opinion at all is it? It's a fact.

Your opinion that Alonso is the best driver of his time is a valid opinion. I place him among the top 10 all time and top 2 of his era. The point is that, more than any other driver (even other top drivers) his fans seek to give him credit for hypothetical achievements while debasing the actual achievements of others.


Exactly.
The only person with a higher opinion of Alonso than most of his fans is, Alonso.


Most drivers are guilty of that though


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:27 am 
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Rockie wrote:
I still don't understand how Alonso is the best of his generation, what generation exactly?

Will that be in the '00's or '10's?

As in the '00's we had MSC.

In the '10's it's been between Vettel and Hamilton so I'm wondering exactly which era Alonso has been the best in? Folks confusing what could have been to what actually happened.

What we have is peoples opinion and campaign by commentators of "I wonder what Alonso will be doing in that car" if you are good enough top teams will go out of their way to sign you.

After the worst season of his career so far, Ferrari went out to sign Vettel and buy Alonso out of the last year to build a new future, hence why he ended up at Mclaren.

Same way Mercedes went after Hamilton, after Vettel turning them down in '13.

In the '10s the WDC fight has largely been between Hamilton and Vettel (although Alonso was certainly in the mix a couple of times during Vettel's titles), but that doesn't necessarily mean they are automatically the best drivers.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 12:32 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 12:45 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
I still don't understand how Alonso is the best of his generation, what generation exactly?

Will that be in the '00's or '10's?

As in the '00's we had MSC.

In the '10's it's been between Vettel and Hamilton so I'm wondering exactly which era Alonso has been the best in? Folks confusing what could have been to what actually happened.

What we have is peoples opinion and campaign by commentators of "I wonder what Alonso will be doing in that car" if you are good enough top teams will go out of their way to sign you.

After the worst season of his career so far, Ferrari went out to sign Vettel and buy Alonso out of the last year to build a new future, hence why he ended up at Mclaren.

Same way Mercedes went after Hamilton, after Vettel turning them down in '13.


I think you're still confusing best with most successful.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 12:48 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I still don't understand how Alonso is the best of his generation, what generation exactly?

Will that be in the '00's or '10's?

As in the '00's we had MSC.

In the '10's it's been between Vettel and Hamilton so I'm wondering exactly which era Alonso has been the best in? Folks confusing what could have been to what actually happened.

What we have is peoples opinion and campaign by commentators of "I wonder what Alonso will be doing in that car" if you are good enough top teams will go out of their way to sign you.

After the worst season of his career so far, Ferrari went out to sign Vettel and buy Alonso out of the last year to build a new future, hence why he ended up at Mclaren.

Same way Mercedes went after Hamilton, after Vettel turning them down in '13.

In the '10s the WDC fight has largely been between Hamilton and Vettel (although Alonso was certainly in the mix a couple of times during Vettel's titles), but that doesn't necessarily mean they are automatically the best drivers.


+1

Titles do not always go to the best driver. We have seen that throughout racing history, not just F1.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 1:00 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
I still don't understand how Alonso is the best of his generation, what generation exactly?

Will that be in the '00's or '10's?

As in the '00's we had MSC.

In the '10's it's been between Vettel and Hamilton so I'm wondering exactly which era Alonso has been the best in? Folks confusing what could have been to what actually happened.

What we have is peoples opinion and campaign by commentators of "I wonder what Alonso will be doing in that car" if you are good enough top teams will go out of their way to sign you.

After the worst season of his career so far, Ferrari went out to sign Vettel and buy Alonso out of the last year to build a new future, hence why he ended up at Mclaren.

Same way Mercedes went after Hamilton, after Vettel turning them down in '13
.


Wut? In the real world Alonso left Ferrari for McHonda, Seb left Red Bull for Ferrari and Mercedes targeted Lewis from the get go.

What years should Alonso have beaten Seb or Lewis considering their respective cars and talent levels that he didn't do? I can come up with 2007 with Lewis. And that's it. So not winning as much as them means about as much as asking why couldn't Seb beat Lewis 2014-17. Or why Lewis couldn't beat Seb (Or even Alonso) 2010-13.

What he lacks is his own period in a dominant car to boost his stats. And I dunno about you but if McLaren came up with a trick that left them completely dominant over Ferrari and Mercedes for even just two years then an extra 30 wins,poles and 2 titles against them doesn't really change that much does it? If so, what exactly?

If those periods when those drivers were outside of the dominant car and couldn't win rule them out of the conversation then fair enough, otherwise what's your point again?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I still don't understand how Alonso is the best of his generation, what generation exactly?

Will that be in the '00's or '10's?

As in the '00's we had MSC.

In the '10's it's been between Vettel and Hamilton so I'm wondering exactly which era Alonso has been the best in? Folks confusing what could have been to what actually happened.

What we have is peoples opinion and campaign by commentators of "I wonder what Alonso will be doing in that car" if you are good enough top teams will go out of their way to sign you.

After the worst season of his career so far, Ferrari went out to sign Vettel and buy Alonso out of the last year to build a new future, hence why he ended up at Mclaren.

Same way Mercedes went after Hamilton, after Vettel turning them down in '13
.


Wut? In the real world Alonso left Ferrari for McHonda, Seb left Red Bull for Ferrari and Mercedes targeted Lewis from the get go.

What years should Alonso have beaten Seb or Lewis considering their respective cars and talent levels that he didn't do? I can come up with 2007 with Lewis. And that's it. So not winning as much as them means about as much as asking why couldn't Seb beat Lewis 2014-17. Or why Lewis couldn't beat Seb (Or even Alonso) 2010-13.

What he lacks is his own period in a dominant car to boost his stats. And I dunno about you but if McLaren came up with a trick that left them completely dominant over Ferrari and Mercedes for even just two years then an extra 30 wins,poles and 2 titles against them doesn't really change that much does it? If so, what exactly?

If those periods when those drivers were outside of the dominant car and couldn't win rule them out of the conversation then fair enough, otherwise what's your point again?


I'd dare say 2010. Very tempted. He was 15 points up before that race, a second place would have done it, but he spent the whole race inspecting Petrov's derriere... In many people's book he should have done better than that


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 1:35 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I still don't understand how Alonso is the best of his generation, what generation exactly?

Will that be in the '00's or '10's?

As in the '00's we had MSC.

In the '10's it's been between Vettel and Hamilton so I'm wondering exactly which era Alonso has been the best in? Folks confusing what could have been to what actually happened.

What we have is peoples opinion and campaign by commentators of "I wonder what Alonso will be doing in that car" if you are good enough top teams will go out of their way to sign you.

After the worst season of his career so far, Ferrari went out to sign Vettel and buy Alonso out of the last year to build a new future, hence why he ended up at Mclaren.

Same way Mercedes went after Hamilton, after Vettel turning them down in '13
.


Wut? In the real world Alonso left Ferrari for McHonda, Seb left Red Bull for Ferrari and Mercedes targeted Lewis from the get go.

What years should Alonso have beaten Seb or Lewis considering their respective cars and talent levels that he didn't do? I can come up with 2007 with Lewis. And that's it. So not winning as much as them means about as much as asking why couldn't Seb beat Lewis 2014-17. Or why Lewis couldn't beat Seb (Or even Alonso) 2010-13.

What he lacks is his own period in a dominant car to boost his stats. And I dunno about you but if McLaren came up with a trick that left them completely dominant over Ferrari and Mercedes for even just two years then an extra 30 wins,poles and 2 titles against them doesn't really change that much does it? If so, what exactly?

If those periods when those drivers were outside of the dominant car and couldn't win rule them out of the conversation then fair enough, otherwise what's your point again?


I'd dare say 2010. Very tempted. He was 15 points up before that race, a second place would have done it, but he spent the whole race inspecting Petrov's derriere... In many people's book he should have done better than that


He shouldn't have had that lead though, the RB6 had half a second on the Ferrari on avg across the season. You should't lose with that advantage if you're a top driver. Both of them made too many errors across the year but the RB6 was a different class, Newey said it had the most d/f of any car he designed.

On the Petrov thing, Alonso had an old engine down on power and Kubica in the other Renault kept Lewis behind for over 25 laps as well. The Renault's weren't bad in a straightline that day. Strategy cost him when Ferrari took the bait.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 1:47 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I still don't understand how Alonso is the best of his generation, what generation exactly?

Will that be in the '00's or '10's?

As in the '00's we had MSC.

In the '10's it's been between Vettel and Hamilton so I'm wondering exactly which era Alonso has been the best in? Folks confusing what could have been to what actually happened.

What we have is peoples opinion and campaign by commentators of "I wonder what Alonso will be doing in that car" if you are good enough top teams will go out of their way to sign you.

After the worst season of his career so far, Ferrari went out to sign Vettel and buy Alonso out of the last year to build a new future, hence why he ended up at Mclaren.

Same way Mercedes went after Hamilton, after Vettel turning them down in '13
.


Wut? In the real world Alonso left Ferrari for McHonda, Seb left Red Bull for Ferrari and Mercedes targeted Lewis from the get go.

What years should Alonso have beaten Seb or Lewis considering their respective cars and talent levels that he didn't do? I can come up with 2007 with Lewis. And that's it. So not winning as much as them means about as much as asking why couldn't Seb beat Lewis 2014-17. Or why Lewis couldn't beat Seb (Or even Alonso) 2010-13.

What he lacks is his own period in a dominant car to boost his stats. And I dunno about you but if McLaren came up with a trick that left them completely dominant over Ferrari and Mercedes for even just two years then an extra 30 wins,poles and 2 titles against them doesn't really change that much does it? If so, what exactly?

If those periods when those drivers were outside of the dominant car and couldn't win rule them out of the conversation then fair enough, otherwise what's your point again?


I'd dare say 2010. Very tempted. He was 15 points up before that race, a second place would have done it, but he spent the whole race inspecting Petrov's derriere... In many people's book he should have done better than that


He shouldn't have had that lead though, the RB6 had half a second on the Ferrari on avg across the season. You should't lose with that advantage if you're a top driver. Both of them made too many errors across the year but the RB6 was a different class, Newey said it had the most d/f of any car he designed.

On the Petrov thing, Alonso had an old engine down on power and Kubica in the other Renault kept Lewis behind for over 25 laps as well. The Renault's weren't bad in a straightline that day. Strategy cost him when Ferrari took the bait.


Oh I agree, it's only because you said of "car and talent levels considered" that I think that Alonso was a much better driver than a 23-year old Vettel and Webber, clever enough to make the car deficit work for him. And surely enough, he was leading by the end of the year.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 1:56 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I still don't understand how Alonso is the best of his generation, what generation exactly?

Will that be in the '00's or '10's?

As in the '00's we had MSC.

In the '10's it's been between Vettel and Hamilton so I'm wondering exactly which era Alonso has been the best in? Folks confusing what could have been to what actually happened.

What we have is peoples opinion and campaign by commentators of "I wonder what Alonso will be doing in that car" if you are good enough top teams will go out of their way to sign you.

After the worst season of his career so far, Ferrari went out to sign Vettel and buy Alonso out of the last year to build a new future, hence why he ended up at Mclaren.

Same way Mercedes went after Hamilton, after Vettel turning them down in '13
.


Wut? In the real world Alonso left Ferrari for McHonda, Seb left Red Bull for Ferrari and Mercedes targeted Lewis from the get go.

What years should Alonso have beaten Seb or Lewis considering their respective cars and talent levels that he didn't do? I can come up with 2007 with Lewis. And that's it. So not winning as much as them means about as much as asking why couldn't Seb beat Lewis 2014-17. Or why Lewis couldn't beat Seb (Or even Alonso) 2010-13.

What he lacks is his own period in a dominant car to boost his stats. And I dunno about you but if McLaren came up with a trick that left them completely dominant over Ferrari and Mercedes for even just two years then an extra 30 wins,poles and 2 titles against them doesn't really change that much does it? If so, what exactly?

If those periods when those drivers were outside of the dominant car and couldn't win rule them out of the conversation then fair enough, otherwise what's your point again?


I'd dare say 2010. Very tempted. He was 15 points up before that race, a second place would have done it, but he spent the whole race inspecting Petrov's derriere... In many people's book he should have done better than that


He shouldn't have had that lead though, the RB6 had half a second on the Ferrari on avg across the season. You should't lose with that advantage if you're a top driver. Both of them made too many errors across the year but the RB6 was a different class, Newey said it had the most d/f of any car he designed.

On the Petrov thing, Alonso had an old engine down on power and Kubica in the other Renault kept Lewis behind for over 25 laps as well. The Renault's weren't bad in a straightline that day. Strategy cost him when Ferrari took the bait.


Oh I agree, it's only because you said of "car and talent levels considered" that I think that Alonso was a much better driver than a 23-year old Vettel and Webber, clever enough to make the car deficit work for him. And surely enough, he was leading by the end of the year.


Only because of Seb's car failing in Korea though otherwise even with Seb's inexperience he'd have led going into AD.

I do think Seb was greener than his other titles though but I think the car was still too strong not to think he should've won it.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:34 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

Wut? In the real world Alonso left Ferrari for McHonda, Seb left Red Bull for Ferrari and Mercedes targeted Lewis from the get go.

What years should Alonso have beaten Seb or Lewis considering their respective cars and talent levels that he didn't do? I can come up with 2007 with Lewis. And that's it. So not winning as much as them means about as much as asking why couldn't Seb beat Lewis 2014-17. Or why Lewis couldn't beat Seb (Or even Alonso) 2010-13.

What he lacks is his own period in a dominant car to boost his stats. And I dunno about you but if McLaren came up with a trick that left them completely dominant over Ferrari and Mercedes for even just two years then an extra 30 wins,poles and 2 titles against them doesn't really change that much does it? If so, what exactly?

If those periods when those drivers were outside of the dominant car and couldn't win rule them out of the conversation then fair enough, otherwise what's your point again?


I'd dare say 2010. Very tempted. He was 15 points up before that race, a second place would have done it, but he spent the whole race inspecting Petrov's derriere... In many people's book he should have done better than that


He shouldn't have had that lead though, the RB6 had half a second on the Ferrari on avg across the season. You should't lose with that advantage if you're a top driver. Both of them made too many errors across the year but the RB6 was a different class, Newey said it had the most d/f of any car he designed.

On the Petrov thing, Alonso had an old engine down on power and Kubica in the other Renault kept Lewis behind for over 25 laps as well. The Renault's weren't bad in a straightline that day. Strategy cost him when Ferrari took the bait.


Oh I agree, it's only because you said of "car and talent levels considered" that I think that Alonso was a much better driver than a 23-year old Vettel and Webber, clever enough to make the car deficit work for him. And surely enough, he was leading by the end of the year.


Only because of Seb's car failing in Korea though otherwise even with Seb's inexperience he'd have led going into AD.

I do think Seb was greener than his other titles though but I think the car was still too strong not to think he should've won it.


Yes, but the Ferrari really picked up in the second half of the year, Alonso had 3 wins and two 3rd places in the last 6 races. They weren't that far back at that point, they won their races pretty much on merit and also had a couple of poles as well. Put also an experienced mega-driver like Alonso and it is not a surprise that he contested this till the end.

This was a very big "arguably" from my side, not a clear cut case of course, but a case could be made. Anyway, not wanting to detract from your original post


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:53 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

I'd dare say 2010. Very tempted. He was 15 points up before that race, a second place would have done it, but he spent the whole race inspecting Petrov's derriere... In many people's book he should have done better than that


He shouldn't have had that lead though, the RB6 had half a second on the Ferrari on avg across the season. You should't lose with that advantage if you're a top driver. Both of them made too many errors across the year but the RB6 was a different class, Newey said it had the most d/f of any car he designed.

On the Petrov thing, Alonso had an old engine down on power and Kubica in the other Renault kept Lewis behind for over 25 laps as well. The Renault's weren't bad in a straightline that day. Strategy cost him when Ferrari took the bait.


Oh I agree, it's only because you said of "car and talent levels considered" that I think that Alonso was a much better driver than a 23-year old Vettel and Webber, clever enough to make the car deficit work for him. And surely enough, he was leading by the end of the year.


Only because of Seb's car failing in Korea though otherwise even with Seb's inexperience he'd have led going into AD.

I do think Seb was greener than his other titles though but I think the car was still too strong not to think he should've won it.


Yes, but the Ferrari really picked up in the second half of the year, Alonso had 3 wins and two 3rd places in the last 6 races. They weren't that far back at that point, they won their races pretty much on merit and also had a couple of poles as well. Put also an experienced mega-driver like Alonso and it is not a surprise that he contested this till the end.

This was a very big "arguably" from my side, not a clear cut case of course, but a case could be made. Anyway, not wanting to detract from your original post


It's the only at debatable one I can see anyway so it's more than fine to bring up, I just think with the car advantage it should've been Seb's anyway but I can at least see where you're coming from.

If anything I think we just disagree on how green Seb was maybe and the effect that had.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:04 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

He shouldn't have had that lead though, the RB6 had half a second on the Ferrari on avg across the season. You should't lose with that advantage if you're a top driver. Both of them made too many errors across the year but the RB6 was a different class, Newey said it had the most d/f of any car he designed.

On the Petrov thing, Alonso had an old engine down on power and Kubica in the other Renault kept Lewis behind for over 25 laps as well. The Renault's weren't bad in a straightline that day. Strategy cost him when Ferrari took the bait.


Oh I agree, it's only because you said of "car and talent levels considered" that I think that Alonso was a much better driver than a 23-year old Vettel and Webber, clever enough to make the car deficit work for him. And surely enough, he was leading by the end of the year.


Only because of Seb's car failing in Korea though otherwise even with Seb's inexperience he'd have led going into AD.

I do think Seb was greener than his other titles though but I think the car was still too strong not to think he should've won it.


Yes, but the Ferrari really picked up in the second half of the year, Alonso had 3 wins and two 3rd places in the last 6 races. They weren't that far back at that point, they won their races pretty much on merit and also had a couple of poles as well. Put also an experienced mega-driver like Alonso and it is not a surprise that he contested this till the end.

This was a very big "arguably" from my side, not a clear cut case of course, but a case could be made. Anyway, not wanting to detract from your original post


It's the only at debatable one I can see anyway so it's more than fine to bring up, I just think with the car advantage it should've been Seb's anyway but I can at least see where you're coming from.

If anything I think we just disagree on how green Seb was maybe and the effect that had.


Maybe, but we're not that far off!


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 5:51 pm 
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The misconception of '10 continues how many wins did Alonso inherit from Vettel?

Also the reliability problems of the Bulls, benefited Alonso, he went into the last race needing just a 5th place and still lost out, same as '12 after Vettel was spun he still found a way to lose.

I mean this is the same guy who when he was almost beaten by MSC was blaming Renault of conspiring against him to lose the WDC.

Honestly I will really like to hear what makes him the "best of this generation" and not opinions or feelings.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 6:02 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I still don't understand how Alonso is the best of his generation, what generation exactly?

Will that be in the '00's or '10's?

As in the '00's we had MSC.

In the '10's it's been between Vettel and Hamilton so I'm wondering exactly which era Alonso has been the best in? Folks confusing what could have been to what actually happened.

What we have is peoples opinion and campaign by commentators of "I wonder what Alonso will be doing in that car" if you are good enough top teams will go out of their way to sign you.

After the worst season of his career so far, Ferrari went out to sign Vettel and buy Alonso out of the last year to build a new future, hence why he ended up at Mclaren.

Same way Mercedes went after Hamilton, after Vettel turning them down in '13
.


Wut? In the real world Alonso left Ferrari for McHonda, Seb left Red Bull for Ferrari and Mercedes targeted Lewis from the get go.

What years should Alonso have beaten Seb or Lewis considering their respective cars and talent levels that he didn't do? I can come up with 2007 with Lewis. And that's it. So not winning as much as them means about as much as asking why couldn't Seb beat Lewis 2014-17. Or why Lewis couldn't beat Seb (Or even Alonso) 2010-13.

What he lacks is his own period in a dominant car to boost his stats. And I dunno about you but if McLaren came up with a trick that left them completely dominant over Ferrari and Mercedes for even just two years then an extra 30 wins,poles and 2 titles against them doesn't really change that much does it? If so, what exactly?

If those periods when those drivers were outside of the dominant car and couldn't win rule them out of the conversation then fair enough, otherwise what's your point again?



Vettel was approached for the Mercedes project before Hamilton, even Lauda confirmed that.

Alonso was shown the door at Ferrari, and if not for a spiteful Horner, Alonso won't have known Vettel had signed with Ferrari, Horner forced Ferrari and Vettel to announce the partnership earlier than they wanted so Alonso had no choice but to go to Mclaren.

Being the best in a generation you cant be outside of a winning team for 11 years, since the last time he won, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Button, Vettel and Rosberg have all won.

So exactly what makes him best, if the best teams refuse to let him in their team?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 6:34 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
The misconception of '10 continues how many wins did Alonso inherit from Vettel?

Also the reliability problems of the Bulls, benefited Alonso, he went into the last race needing just a 5th place and still lost out, same as '12 after Vettel was spun he still found a way to lose.

I mean this is the same guy who when he was almost beaten by MSC was blaming Renault of conspiring against him to lose the WDC.

Honestly I will really like to hear what makes him the "best of this generation" and not opinions or feelings.


What misconception?

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:32 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I still don't understand how Alonso is the best of his generation, what generation exactly?

Will that be in the '00's or '10's?

As in the '00's we had MSC.

In the '10's it's been between Vettel and Hamilton so I'm wondering exactly which era Alonso has been the best in? Folks confusing what could have been to what actually happened.

What we have is peoples opinion and campaign by commentators of "I wonder what Alonso will be doing in that car" if you are good enough top teams will go out of their way to sign you.

After the worst season of his career so far, Ferrari went out to sign Vettel and buy Alonso out of the last year to build a new future, hence why he ended up at Mclaren.

Same way Mercedes went after Hamilton, after Vettel turning them down in '13
.


Wut? In the real world Alonso left Ferrari for McHonda, Seb left Red Bull for Ferrari and Mercedes targeted Lewis from the get go.

What years should Alonso have beaten Seb or Lewis considering their respective cars and talent levels that he didn't do? I can come up with 2007 with Lewis. And that's it. So not winning as much as them means about as much as asking why couldn't Seb beat Lewis 2014-17. Or why Lewis couldn't beat Seb (Or even Alonso) 2010-13.

What he lacks is his own period in a dominant car to boost his stats. And I dunno about you but if McLaren came up with a trick that left them completely dominant over Ferrari and Mercedes for even just two years then an extra 30 wins,poles and 2 titles against them doesn't really change that much does it? If so, what exactly?

If those periods when those drivers were outside of the dominant car and couldn't win rule them out of the conversation then fair enough, otherwise what's your point again?



Vettel was approached for the Mercedes project before Hamilton, even Lauda confirmed that.

Alonso was shown the door at Ferrari, and if not for a spiteful Horner, Alonso won't have known Vettel had signed with Ferrari, Horner forced Ferrari and Vettel to announce the partnership earlier than they wanted so Alonso had no choice but to go to Mclaren.

Being the best in a generation you cant be outside of a winning team for 11 years, since the last time he won, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Button, Vettel and Rosberg have all won.

So exactly what makes him best, if the best teams refuse to let him in their team?


Source for Seb and Mercedes?

He wasn't shown the door, he refused to sign the extension until 2019 and asked for his gentleman's agreement with Luca to be honoured. James Allison tried to get him to change his mind but apparently Alonso had already decided to go to McLaren.

James Allison wrote:
"No. I couldn’t do it,” the Briton said. “I explained to him that things would change, that the new car was good, the gap would decrease, that staying with us made sense. But he was too disillusioned by then. I was the tenth person that had said it to him — he had heard it for years and no longer believed it.”

https://www.grandprix247.com/2015/05/10 ... t-ferrari/

Helmut Marko even mentioned Alonso being too far down the road with McLaren as one of the considerations why Red Bull didn't try to get him. http://www.thisisf1.com/2014/10/07/red- ... ren-bound/

There's a good reason Sky Italia and every other media outlet took so much joy in asking Alonso about Ferrari's competitiveness in 2015 (And since). You think they do that to someone who's been fired? They frequently brought up his deciding to leave and any regrets in the questions.

Then Arrivabenne went for Seb. From the horses mouth...

Arrivabene wrote:
Normally the team principal is never involved in the driver choice. In the case of Vettel, we were both aware when we were told officially that Fernando was leaving the team around Sochi and the name of Vettel was going around but the situation was unclear. I put a phone call in to a person I know and that he knows very well - it's Sabine Kehm, the manager of Michael.

"Sabine called Sebastian. Sebastian had some doubt, he was asking 'what about Ferrari, I don't know the team'. Sabine described the atmosphere that she found at the time of Michael and said it's a great team, it's like a family and Seb was listening.

However, Arrivabene says it was a subsequent phone call from Marchionne himself that would ultimately convince Vettel to join Ferrari.

"The phone which made the difference after this phone call was from Sergio Marchionne. Without that phone call Sebastian would probably not be here with us. This is the truth."

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/215020/1/ ... in-ferrari


Not saying he is the best of his generation but of course you can be outside of a winning team, only one team gets to win and if his engineers aren't the ones to come up with something then there's not much you can do. Double diffuser,EBD,HPC suspension and lean burn.

All those drivers listed were in those teams when those engineers came up with them except 2, Kimi who won by 1pt from Lewis who should've won on merit and Alonso who could've won if he didn't go in a huff, and the second is Lewis's first title in 08 when he was the best driver by a country mile out of the 4 that had a chance and won despite having one of his dodgiest years. Two pretty unique seasons but yes Alonso really should've done better in those years anyway, on and off track.

The rest had the best tools by a good margin and guess what happened the one time Alonso had those genius ideas from his engineers (mass damper), yep he won. The car is the star, there's a good reason you've been quiet for 4 years and it's not because Seb forgot how to drive. Now he's got the best car again, he's the God again.

For a complicated sport it's really simple in deciding who gets to win. There isn't much performance difference between the Top 5 guys so giving any of them a healthy car advantage is too hard to over come but he's got closer than most to doing it twice and his own two wins were against the Goat with only a car advantage over him in one of them. Believe it or not who you beat and how you beat them to win your titles matters and his are pretty tough to top.

The reason he's talked about is respected people in the game keep talking about him because his performances are hard to ignore whatever the team mate, the car behaviour, the car competitiveness,the conditions, the tyres. the track,the regulations, none of it matters, he's always there putting in performances.

Until that stops, the praise won't.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:58 pm 
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Baku 2018
Alonso drags a non-top 10 car to P6 despite massive first lap damage outside his fault, beating his teammate despite being several places behindand beating several quicker cars on the way.
Vettel scores P4 in the best car of the field, losing out to his teammate (who was several places behind him) and to a driver in an inferior car, all due to his own driving mistake.

Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

We have (imperfect) evidence that Ricciardo is better than Vettel, we have no evidence whatsoever that it may be the other way around.

There is really no good reason to believe that Vettel is on the same level as Hamilton, Alonso, and - potential-wise - Verstappen. But he is not far behind, for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 12:19 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Baku 2018
Alonso drags a non-top 10 car to P6 despite massive first lap damage outside his fault, beating his teammate despite being several places behindand beating several quicker cars on the way.
Vettel scores P4 in the best car of the field, losing out to his teammate (who was several places behind him) and to a driver in an inferior car, all due to his own driving mistake.

Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

We have (imperfect) evidence that Ricciardo is better than Vettel, we have no evidence whatsoever that it may be the other way around.

There is really no good reason to believe that Vettel is on the same level as Hamilton, Alonso, and - potential-wise - Verstappen. But he is not far behind, for sure.


Leclerc put a Sauber in the top five so I don't get what you are saying.

Has Alonso never made a mistake? I seem to remember him driving into the back of a car in '14 that EJ said he needs to retire.

Yes you have that if you want to base his entire career on '14, yup no reason to believe that after all of all the drivers you mention only Vettel has won in a midfield car.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 12:30 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I still don't understand how Alonso is the best of his generation, what generation exactly?

Will that be in the '00's or '10's?

As in the '00's we had MSC.

In the '10's it's been between Vettel and Hamilton so I'm wondering exactly which era Alonso has been the best in? Folks confusing what could have been to what actually happened.

What we have is peoples opinion and campaign by commentators of "I wonder what Alonso will be doing in that car" if you are good enough top teams will go out of their way to sign you.

After the worst season of his career so far, Ferrari went out to sign Vettel and buy Alonso out of the last year to build a new future, hence why he ended up at Mclaren.

Same way Mercedes went after Hamilton, after Vettel turning them down in '13
.


Wut? In the real world Alonso left Ferrari for McHonda, Seb left Red Bull for Ferrari and Mercedes targeted Lewis from the get go.

What years should Alonso have beaten Seb or Lewis considering their respective cars and talent levels that he didn't do? I can come up with 2007 with Lewis. And that's it. So not winning as much as them means about as much as asking why couldn't Seb beat Lewis 2014-17. Or why Lewis couldn't beat Seb (Or even Alonso) 2010-13.

What he lacks is his own period in a dominant car to boost his stats. And I dunno about you but if McLaren came up with a trick that left them completely dominant over Ferrari and Mercedes for even just two years then an extra 30 wins,poles and 2 titles against them doesn't really change that much does it? If so, what exactly?

If those periods when those drivers were outside of the dominant car and couldn't win rule them out of the conversation then fair enough, otherwise what's your point again?



Vettel was approached for the Mercedes project before Hamilton, even Lauda confirmed that.

Alonso was shown the door at Ferrari, and if not for a spiteful Horner, Alonso won't have known Vettel had signed with Ferrari, Horner forced Ferrari and Vettel to announce the partnership earlier than they wanted so Alonso had no choice but to go to Mclaren.

Being the best in a generation you cant be outside of a winning team for 11 years, since the last time he won, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Button, Vettel and Rosberg have all won.

So exactly what makes him best, if the best teams refuse to let him in their team?


Source for Seb and Mercedes?

He wasn't shown the door, he refused to sign the extension until 2019 and asked for his gentleman's agreement with Luca to be honoured. James Allison tried to get him to change his mind but apparently Alonso had already decided to go to McLaren.

James Allison wrote:
"No. I couldn’t do it,” the Briton said. “I explained to him that things would change, that the new car was good, the gap would decrease, that staying with us made sense. But he was too disillusioned by then. I was the tenth person that had said it to him — he had heard it for years and no longer believed it.”

https://www.grandprix247.com/2015/05/10 ... t-ferrari/

Helmut Marko even mentioned Alonso being too far down the road with McLaren as one of the considerations why Red Bull didn't try to get him. http://www.thisisf1.com/2014/10/07/red- ... ren-bound/

There's a good reason Sky Italia and every other media outlet took so much joy in asking Alonso about Ferrari's competitiveness in 2015 (And since). You think they do that to someone who's been fired? They frequently brought up his deciding to leave and any regrets in the questions.

Then Arrivabenne went for Seb. From the horses mouth...

Arrivabene wrote:
Normally the team principal is never involved in the driver choice. In the case of Vettel, we were both aware when we were told officially that Fernando was leaving the team around Sochi and the name of Vettel was going around but the situation was unclear. I put a phone call in to a person I know and that he knows very well - it's Sabine Kehm, the manager of Michael.

"Sabine called Sebastian. Sebastian had some doubt, he was asking 'what about Ferrari, I don't know the team'. Sabine described the atmosphere that she found at the time of Michael and said it's a great team, it's like a family and Seb was listening.

However, Arrivabene says it was a subsequent phone call from Marchionne himself that would ultimately convince Vettel to join Ferrari.

"The phone which made the difference after this phone call was from Sergio Marchionne. Without that phone call Sebastian would probably not be here with us. This is the truth."

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/215020/1/ ... in-ferrari


Not saying he is the best of his generation but of course you can be outside of a winning team, only one team gets to win and if his engineers aren't the ones to come up with something then there's not much you can do. Double diffuser,EBD,HPC suspension and lean burn.

All those drivers listed were in those teams when those engineers came up with them except 2, Kimi who won by 1pt from Lewis who should've won on merit and Alonso who could've won if he didn't go in a huff, and the second is Lewis's first title in 08 when he was the best driver by a country mile out of the 4 that had a chance and won despite having one of his dodgiest years. Two pretty unique seasons but yes Alonso really should've done better in those years anyway, on and off track.

The rest had the best tools by a good margin and guess what happened the one time Alonso had those genius ideas from his engineers (mass damper), yep he won. The car is the star, there's a good reason you've been quiet for 4 years and it's not because Seb forgot how to drive. Now he's got the best car again, he's the God again.

For a complicated sport it's really simple in deciding who gets to win. There isn't much performance difference between the Top 5 guys so giving any of them a healthy car advantage is too hard to over come but he's got closer than most to doing it twice and his own two wins were against the Goat with only a car advantage over him in one of them. Believe it or not who you beat and how you beat them to win your titles matters and his are pretty tough to top.

The reason he's talked about is respected people in the game keep talking about him because his performances are hard to ignore whatever the team mate, the car behaviour, the car competitiveness,the conditions, the tyres. the track,the regulations, none of it matters, he's always there putting in performances.

Until that stops, the praise won't.


http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24182/9502110/red-bull-announce-that-sebastian-vettel-is-leaving-at-the-end-of-the-season


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 3:09 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Baku 2018Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

Wait, what?

Baku 2018, Singapore 2017, and Baku 2017. Where else?

Hamilton and Alonso have thrown away race wins too. Hamilton in particular has thrown away at least as many potential race wins as Vettel.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 3:31 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Baku 2018
Alonso drags a non-top 10 car to P6 despite massive first lap damage outside his fault, beating his teammate despite being several places behindand beating several quicker cars on the way.
Vettel scores P4 in the best car of the field, losing out to his teammate (who was several places behind him) and to a driver in an inferior car, all due to his own driving mistake.

Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

We have (imperfect) evidence that Ricciardo is better than Vettel, we have no evidence whatsoever that it may be the other way around.

There is really no good reason to believe that Vettel is on the same level as Hamilton, Alonso, and - potential-wise - Verstappen. But he is not far behind, for sure.


Vettel made one big mistake for sure but otherwise he was great all weekend. Alonso teammates barely stand a chance against him. Alonso owns the team. Mclaren and Alonso have consistently picked up points due to other having bad races rather than their performance. Not considering even RBR drivers and Bottas. Ocon, Grosjean, Hulk. Kevin Mag also had a bad race all these were going to finish ahead of him.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:11 am 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Baku 2018
Alonso drags a non-top 10 car to P6 despite massive first lap damage outside his fault, beating his teammate despite being several places behindand beating several quicker cars on the way.
Vettel scores P4 in the best car of the field, losing out to his teammate (who was several places behind him) and to a driver in an inferior car, all due to his own driving mistake.

Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

We have (imperfect) evidence that Ricciardo is better than Vettel, we have no evidence whatsoever that it may be the other way around.

There is really no good reason to believe that Vettel is on the same level as Hamilton, Alonso, and - potential-wise - Verstappen. But he is not far behind, for sure.


Vettel made one big mistake for sure but otherwise he was great all weekend. Alonso teammates barely stand a chance against him. Alonso owns the team. Mclaren and Alonso have consistently picked up points due to other having bad races rather than their performance. Not considering even RBR drivers and Bottas. Ocon, Grosjean, Hulk. Kevin Mag also had a bad race all these were going to finish ahead of him.


Perhaps Alonso consistently picks up points by not having bad races more than anything else. It's too much of a common thread throughout his career for it to just be luck. he's just got a knack of picking his way through a race. He's currently 6th in the WDC with probably the 6th best car.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:17 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Baku 2018
Alonso drags a non-top 10 car to P6 despite massive first lap damage outside his fault, beating his teammate despite being several places behindand beating several quicker cars on the way.
Vettel scores P4 in the best car of the field, losing out to his teammate (who was several places behind him) and to a driver in an inferior car, all due to his own driving mistake.

Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

We have (imperfect) evidence that Ricciardo is better than Vettel, we have no evidence whatsoever that it may be the other way around.

There is really no good reason to believe that Vettel is on the same level as Hamilton, Alonso, and - potential-wise - Verstappen. But he is not far behind, for sure.


Vettel made one big mistake for sure but otherwise he was great all weekend. Alonso teammates barely stand a chance against him. Alonso owns the team. Mclaren and Alonso have consistently picked up points due to other having bad races rather than their performance. Not considering even RBR drivers and Bottas. Ocon, Grosjean, Hulk. Kevin Mag also had a bad race all these were going to finish ahead of him.


Perhaps Alonso consistently picks up points by not having bad races more than anything else. It's too much of a common thread throughout his career for it to just be luck. he's just got a knack of picking his way through a race. He's currently 6th in the WDC with probably the 6th best car.


:thumbup:

Same thing with Alonso's teammates. They get all sorts of praise before being teamed with Alonso, then when he is beating them all kind of excuses are used, and eventually they are declared to never have been good in the first place. Fisichella, Massa, Räikkönen, Button, wunderkind Vandoorne ...

:lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:20 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Baku 2018Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

Wait, what?

Baku 2018, Singapore 2017, and Baku 2017. Where else?

Hamilton and Alonso have thrown away race wins too. Hamilton in particular has thrown away at least as many potential race wins as Vettel.


Mexico 2017.

Have the others really thrown away that many possible race wins in such a short time while being that experienced (not talking about rookie- or almost-rookie seasons, obviously)?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:33 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Baku 2018
Alonso drags a non-top 10 car to P6 despite massive first lap damage outside his fault, beating his teammate despite being several places behindand beating several quicker cars on the way.
Vettel scores P4 in the best car of the field, losing out to his teammate (who was several places behind him) and to a driver in an inferior car, all due to his own driving mistake.

Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

We have (imperfect) evidence that Ricciardo is better than Vettel, we have no evidence whatsoever that it may be the other way around.

There is really no good reason to believe that Vettel is on the same level as Hamilton, Alonso, and - potential-wise - Verstappen. But he is not far behind, for sure.


Leclerc put a Sauber in the top five so I don't get what you are saying.

Has Alonso never made a mistake? I seem to remember him driving into the back of a car in '14 that EJ said he needs to retire.

Yes you have that if you want to base his entire career on '14, yup no reason to believe that after all of all the drivers you mention only Vettel has won in a midfield car.


Well, I agree that Leclerc was better than Vettel in Baku, too. Yet, that was not the point - and I think it is a bit premature to conclude from that on Leclerc's potential to become better than Vettel.

Of course, Alonso and Hamilton make mistakes. But not as many as Vettel. And there is indication that both are quicker than him (Ricciardo, Räikkönen, di Resta), which is imperfect, of course. But there is no indication to the contrary.

Vettel drove great races in his career, no doubt, that is why I think he is the fifth best driver on the grid today, fourth best if we judge Verstappen on actual performance rather than potential. A great driver and for all I know apparently a nice guy. Just not the best, "only" close to the best.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 9:11 am 
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Same old same old.. Alonso this Alonso that but he is winning nothing (yet), only teammates wars.

I think the biggest fallacy is to confuse teammates performances with "ultimate" performance.
I have zero doubt if McLaren was a TOP car, Vandoorne would perform much much better but it is fair to say that Vandoorne biggest weakness now is that he is BLAND, QUIET, not confident at all and he is incapable to look after his own interest(Remember what Hamilton did in Monaco in 2007?). Had Hamilton been like Stoffel when he started, I am not sure he would be the successful driver he is today.


I have had the impression for many years now that there is something with Alonso's style that is completely foreign to his teammates and tend to make them look worse than they really are. It is like constraining your teammate to play football with his left foot(Alonso's foot) when you know that normally people tend to use their right foot.

Another example of teammate performance fallacy is Hamilton and his teammates who often "seem" to match him in term of points but not in terms of ultimate performance.
A case in point is Hamilton's qualifying record over the years where you can see that there is a gap between his Poles(vs teammates) and simply beating them in qualifying.
When there is a pole at sight, more than often than not he will take it. It happened with Alonso, Button, Kovalainen, Bottas, with the only exception of Rosberg.

2010 and 2012 WDC were there for Alonso to take(unlike Hamilton and Vettel who had their teammates free to race them, Alonso had the whole team behind him), and what went missing are the ultimate performances(mostly in qualifying and in the rain) I just talked about. Don't bring his teammates into the equation because taking teammate performance as an absolute barometer is the biggest fallacy of F1 more so if they drive for Ferrari where they will happily break your gearbox to give a cleaner starting grid slot to your "captain".

Hamilton will not collect 5th places, it is not in his nature and it is not something he has done many times to be honest, but for ultimate performance (1st places) the only guy who matches him is Vettel.

Right now, I think Alonso looks better than he really and he will gain nothing and can only lose in terms of "reputation" battling Hamilton and Vettel at the front.


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