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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 3:46 pm 
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I favor Hamilton over Alonso, in terms of overall greatness. That is my opinion. Yet, I somehow just can't fathom that Alonso is likely to finish at two WDC's and 30 ish race wins. His career choices have been poor. Yet the skill is there. I don't know how many WDC's or race wins Vettel or Hamilton will have but its clearly many more than Alonso, yet I think Hamilton just shades him in terms of talent and Vettel is a level below. I do think that if you put Alonso in a team with a subservient teammate in an equal car to Hamilton and Hamilton with a non-subservient team mate Alonso would defeat Hamilton most of the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 3:56 pm 
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Donington93 wrote:
I favor Hamilton over Alonso, in terms of overall greatness. That is my opinion. Yet, I somehow just can't fathom that Alonso is likely to finish at two WDC's and 30 ish race wins. His career choices have been poor. Yet the skill is there. I don't know how many WDC's or race wins Vettel or Hamilton will have but its clearly many more than Alonso, yet I think Hamilton just shades him in terms of talent and Vettel is a level below. I do think that if you put Alonso in a team with a subservient teammate in an equal car to Hamilton and Hamilton with a non-subservient team mate Alonso would defeat Hamilton most of the time.


What makes Vettel below, if I may ask?

In a dominant car he was dominant, in the second best car and a midfield car he has won so what exactly makes you say he is a level below them?

Something none of the above have done.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 4:06 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Baku 2018Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

Wait, what?

Baku 2018, Singapore 2017, and Baku 2017. Where else?

Hamilton and Alonso have thrown away race wins too. Hamilton in particular has thrown away at least as many potential race wins as Vettel.


Mexico 2017.

Have the others really thrown away that many possible race wins in such a short time while being that experienced (not talking about rookie- or almost-rookie seasons, obviously)?

At Mexico he had already lost the lead before he hit Hamilton.

If that’s your definition of throwing a race win, Hamilton threw away potential race wins at Australia 2016, Bahrain 2016, Spain 2016, Baku 2016, Monza 2016, and Bahrain 2017.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 4:21 pm 
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Wait Hamilton or Alonso haven't won in cars that weren't the best? Vettel had the best car from 2009 through 2013. Both Hamilton and Alonso won races and were competitive during that era and some of their cars that they won races in during that era were pretty poor.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 4:27 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Baku 2018Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

Wait, what?

Baku 2018, Singapore 2017, and Baku 2017. Where else?

Hamilton and Alonso have thrown away race wins too. Hamilton in particular has thrown away at least as many potential race wins as Vettel.


Mexico 2017.

Have the others really thrown away that many possible race wins in such a short time while being that experienced (not talking about rookie- or almost-rookie seasons, obviously)?

At Mexico he had already lost the lead before he hit Hamilton.

If that’s your definition of throwing a race win, Hamilton threw away potential race wins at Australia 2016, Bahrain 2016, Spain 2016, Baku 2016, Monza 2016, and Bahrain 2017.


Singapore '17, are we really counting that? He didn't even touch another car


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 4:33 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Baku 2018
Alonso drags a non-top 10 car to P6 despite massive first lap damage outside his fault, beating his teammate despite being several places behindand beating several quicker cars on the way.
Vettel scores P4 in the best car of the field, losing out to his teammate (who was several places behind him) and to a driver in an inferior car, all due to his own driving mistake.

Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

We have (imperfect) evidence that Ricciardo is better than Vettel, we have no evidence whatsoever that it may be the other way around.

There is really no good reason to believe that Vettel is on the same level as Hamilton, Alonso, and - potential-wise - Verstappen. But he is not far behind, for sure.


Leclerc put a Sauber in the top five so I don't get what you are saying.

Has Alonso never made a mistake? I seem to remember him driving into the back of a car in '14 that EJ said he needs to retire.

Yes you have that if you want to base his entire career on '14, yup no reason to believe that after all of all the drivers you mention only Vettel has won in a midfield car.


Well, I agree that Leclerc was better than Vettel in Baku, too. Yet, that was not the point - and I think it is a bit premature to conclude from that on Leclerc's potential to become better than Vettel.

Of course, Alonso and Hamilton make mistakes. But not as many as Vettel. And there is indication that both are quicker than him (Ricciardo, Räikkönen, di Resta), which is imperfect, of course. But there is no indication to the contrary.

Vettel drove great races in his career, no doubt, that is why I think he is the fifth best driver on the grid today, fourth best if we judge Verstappen on actual performance rather than potential. A great driver and for all I know apparently a nice guy. Just not the best, "only" close to the best.


Leclerc better than Vettel in Baku probably you started watching the race after the safety car.

Vettel the fourth best driver I cant stop laughing, let's examine the facts in his career the last time Vettel finished behind Alonso in the standings was '08, try doing the same for Hamilton, not even in his worst season in F1 in '14 did he finish behind Alonso yet he's the 4th best man you need to wake up.

Whilst Alonso and his fans are singing his praises, Vettel has written his legacy in history something Hamilton realised as well that it's not how you win but winning as of '13 he was a 1X WDC, because I'm still trying to understand the separation of man and machine as without being in the proper car he's not winning, now if we agree on that, then why would he deliberately take himself out of a championship winning car.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Baku 2018
Alonso drags a non-top 10 car to P6 despite massive first lap damage outside his fault, beating his teammate despite being several places behindand beating several quicker cars on the way.
Vettel scores P4 in the best car of the field, losing out to his teammate (who was several places behind him) and to a driver in an inferior car, all due to his own driving mistake.

Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

We have (imperfect) evidence that Ricciardo is better than Vettel, we have no evidence whatsoever that it may be the other way around.

There is really no good reason to believe that Vettel is on the same level as Hamilton, Alonso, and - potential-wise - Verstappen. But he is not far behind, for sure.


Leclerc put a Sauber in the top five so I don't get what you are saying.

Has Alonso never made a mistake? I seem to remember him driving into the back of a car in '14 that EJ said he needs to retire.

Yes you have that if you want to base his entire career on '14, yup no reason to believe that after all of all the drivers you mention only Vettel has won in a midfield car.


Well, I agree that Leclerc was better than Vettel in Baku, too. Yet, that was not the point - and I think it is a bit premature to conclude from that on Leclerc's potential to become better than Vettel.

Of course, Alonso and Hamilton make mistakes. But not as many as Vettel. And there is indication that both are quicker than him (Ricciardo, Räikkönen, di Resta), which is imperfect, of course. But there is no indication to the contrary.

Vettel drove great races in his career, no doubt, that is why I think he is the fifth best driver on the grid today, fourth best if we judge Verstappen on actual performance rather than potential. A great driver and for all I know apparently a nice guy. Just not the best, "only" close to the best.


Leclerc better than Vettel in Baku probably you started watching the race after the safety car.

Vettel the fourth best driver I cant stop laughing, let's examine the facts in his career the last time Vettel finished behind Alonso in the standings was '08, try doing the same for Hamilton, not even in his worst season in F1 in '14 did he finish behind Alonso yet he's the 4th best man you need to wake up.

Whilst Alonso and his fans are singing his praises, Vettel has written his legacy in history something Hamilton realised as well that it's not how you win but winning as of '13 he was a 1X WDC, because I'm still trying to understand the separation of man and machine as without being in the proper car he's not winning, now if we agree on that, then why would he deliberately take himself out of a championship winning car.


Was Alonso better than Hamilton when he beat him in the championship 2010 - 2013.

You earlier asserted that "nobody has ever beaten a faster car" If you believe that to be true why reference Alonso's defeats to drivers in superior cars? According to you there is absolutely nothing he could do about it.

That's your logic. Not mine.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 4:41 pm 
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Donington93 wrote:
Wait Hamilton or Alonso haven't won in cars that weren't the best? Vettel had the best car from 2009 through 2013. Both Hamilton and Alonso won races and were competitive during that era and some of their cars that they won races in during that era were pretty poor.


Correction from '10 - '13, and also Vettel too is competitive and winning races during the Mercedes domination so I don't get it.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 4:45 pm 
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Posts: 1701
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Baku 2018
Alonso drags a non-top 10 car to P6 despite massive first lap damage outside his fault, beating his teammate despite being several places behindand beating several quicker cars on the way.
Vettel scores P4 in the best car of the field, losing out to his teammate (who was several places behind him) and to a driver in an inferior car, all due to his own driving mistake.

Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

We have (imperfect) evidence that Ricciardo is better than Vettel, we have no evidence whatsoever that it may be the other way around.

There is really no good reason to believe that Vettel is on the same level as Hamilton, Alonso, and - potential-wise - Verstappen. But he is not far behind, for sure.


Leclerc put a Sauber in the top five so I don't get what you are saying.

Has Alonso never made a mistake? I seem to remember him driving into the back of a car in '14 that EJ said he needs to retire.

Yes you have that if you want to base his entire career on '14, yup no reason to believe that after all of all the drivers you mention only Vettel has won in a midfield car.


Well, I agree that Leclerc was better than Vettel in Baku, too. Yet, that was not the point - and I think it is a bit premature to conclude from that on Leclerc's potential to become better than Vettel.

Of course, Alonso and Hamilton make mistakes. But not as many as Vettel. And there is indication that both are quicker than him (Ricciardo, Räikkönen, di Resta), which is imperfect, of course. But there is no indication to the contrary.

Vettel drove great races in his career, no doubt, that is why I think he is the fifth best driver on the grid today, fourth best if we judge Verstappen on actual performance rather than potential. A great driver and for all I know apparently a nice guy. Just not the best, "only" close to the best.


Leclerc better than Vettel in Baku probably you started watching the race after the safety car.

Vettel the fourth best driver I cant stop laughing, let's examine the facts in his career the last time Vettel finished behind Alonso in the standings was '08, try doing the same for Hamilton, not even in his worst season in F1 in '14 did he finish behind Alonso yet he's the 4th best man you need to wake up.

Whilst Alonso and his fans are singing his praises, Vettel has written his legacy in history something Hamilton realised as well that it's not how you win but winning as of '13 he was a 1X WDC, because I'm still trying to understand the separation of man and machine as without being in the proper car he's not winning, now if we agree on that, then why would he deliberately take himself out of a championship winning car.


Was Alonso better than Hamilton when he beat him in the championship 2010 - 2013.

You earlier asserted that "nobody has ever beaten a faster car" If you believe that to be true why reference Alonso's defeats to drivers in superior cars? According to you there is absolutely nothing he could do about it.

That's your logic. Not mine.


You said Vettel only beat Alonso because he was in a better car, just showing you that Hamilton was never a runner up to Vettel, but you still feel only Vettel is not worthy of his achievements not Hamilton.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 5:02 pm 
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Donington93 wrote:
Wait Hamilton or Alonso haven't won in cars that weren't the best? Vettel had the best car from 2009 through 2013. Both Hamilton and Alonso won races and were competitive during that era and some of their cars that they won races in during that era were pretty poor.

Red Bull's advantage during this timespan was nowhere near as consistent as Mercedes' advantage from 2014-2016.

Red Bull didn't have the fastest car in the first half of 2009, nor throughout large patches of 2012, or in the opening races of 2013. There were also a handful of races in 2010 and 2011 where they didn't have the best car.

Button for instance won 8 races from 2010-2012 driving the same car as Hamilton.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:41 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
You said Vettel only beat Alonso because he was in a better car, just showing you that Hamilton was never a runner up to Vettel, but you still feel only Vettel is not worthy of his achievements not Hamilton.


I really didn't....

And I've never suggested Vettel isn't worthy of his achievements. I wouldn't say it either because I don't think that. On all my all time list I placed Vettel one place behind Hamilton. I basically consider them pretty much even. I do think Alonso is better than both of them.

But anyway, according to you it's impossible to beat a faster car. So by definition if Vettel does beat Hamilton or Alonso it has to be the car. Because if his car was inferior he couldn't have done it, and if there car is inferior they had no chance. That's certianly not what I think but it is your logic.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:52 pm 
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Lets take a look at Alonso's record -

2003 - 6th in WDC in the 4th best car.
2004 - 4th in WDC in the 3rd best car.
2005 - Champion in the 2nd quickest but more reliable car
2006 - Champion in probably the joint quickest car, hard to tell
2007 - 3rd in the WDC but level on points with 2nd. I believe in the 2nd fastest car. Others will disagree, lets not open that can of worms.
2008 - 5th in the WDC in the 4th best car
2009 - 9th in the WDC, car's were so close it's hard to order them but probably 8th best on average
2010 - 2nd in WDC in the 2nd best car
2011 - 4th in the WDC in the 3rd best car
2012 - 2nd in the WDC in the 4th best car
2013 - 2nd in the WDC in either the 2nd best car but it swung around a lot.
2014 - 6th in the WDC in the 5th best car
2015 - 17th in the WDC in the 9th best car
2016 - 10th in the WDC in the 6th, or maybe 7th best car
2017 - 15th in the WDC in the 9th best car

In 15 seasons he has finished above where his car should put him, or been champion 13 times.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 7:10 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Baku 2018
Alonso drags a non-top 10 car to P6 despite massive first lap damage outside his fault, beating his teammate despite being several places behindand beating several quicker cars on the way.
Vettel scores P4 in the best car of the field, losing out to his teammate (who was several places behind him) and to a driver in an inferior car, all due to his own driving mistake.

Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

We have (imperfect) evidence that Ricciardo is better than Vettel, we have no evidence whatsoever that it may be the other way around.

There is really no good reason to believe that Vettel is on the same level as Hamilton, Alonso, and - potential-wise - Verstappen. But he is not far behind, for sure.
o

Leclerc put a Sauber in the top five so I don't get what you are saying.

Has Alonso never made a mistake? I seem to remember him driving into the back of a car in '14 that EJ said he needs to retire.

Yes you have that if you want to base his entire career on '14, yup no reason to believe that after all of all the drivers you mention only Vettel has won in a midfield car.


You brought Leclerc in, not me. And if you visit the DOTD thread, then many think he did better. Maybe you did not actually watch the race?

The difficulty in judging driver performance in Formula One is exactly the often huge difference in cars' competitiveness. The best driver is not identical with the best machine. That's why teammate comparisons, despite their imperfectness, are the best available yardstick.
Vettel won Monza in a midfield car, which was, is and always will be a sensational achievement. Alonso nearly won the wdc which was the 4th best car on average, at best. Alonso finished higher than his car should allow in the wdc in many years.

Well, I agree that Leclerc was better than Vettel in Baku, too. Yet, that was not the point - and I think it is a bit premature to conclude from that on Leclerc's potential to become better than Vettel.

Of course, Alonso and Hamilton make mistakes. But not as many as Vettel. And there is indication that both are quicker than him (Ricciardo, Räikkönen, di Resta), which is imperfect, of course. But there is no indication to the contrary.

Vettel drove great races in his career, no doubt, that is why I think he is the fifth best driver on the grid today, fourth best if we judge Verstappen on actual performance rather than potential. A great driver and for all I know apparently a nice guy. Just not the best, "only" close to the best.


Leclerc better than Vettel in Baku probably you started watching the race after the safety car.

Vettel the fourth best driver I cant stop laughing, let's examine the facts in his career the last time Vettel finished behind Alonso in the standings was '08, try doing the same for Hamilton, not even in his worst season in F1 in '14 did he finish behind Alonso yet he's the 4th best man you need to wake up.

Whilst Alonso and his fans are singing his praises, Vettel has written his legacy in history something Hamilton realised as well that it's not how you win but winning as of '13 he was a 1X WDC, because I'm still trying to understand the separation of man and machine as without being in the proper car he's not winning, now if we agree on that, then why would he deliberately take himself out of a championship winning car.



You brought Leclerc into the discussion, not me.

The difficulty in judging driver performance is exactly to separate the drivers' performance from the cars' performance. The best driver does not necessarily drives the best car. That's why teammate comparisons, despite their imperfectness, are the best available measurement.

Vettel once won Monza in a midfield car, a sensational performance, I agree with you here. Alonso almost won the wdc in what was the 4th best car at best on average that season. Also, he finished higher than he should given the car he was driving in many seasons. Something you should value as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 7:25 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Baku 2018Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

Wait, what?

Baku 2018, Singapore 2017, and Baku 2017. Where else?

Hamilton and Alonso have thrown away race wins too. Hamilton in particular has thrown away at least as many potential race wins as Vettel.


Mexico 2017.

Have the others really thrown away that many possible race wins in such a short time while being that experienced (not talking about rookie- or almost-rookie seasons, obviously)?

At Mexico he had already lost the lead before he hit Hamilton.
.


Still, it was a very possible race win. Overtaking, strategy, ....


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:02 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Lets take a look at Alonso's record -

2003 - 6th in WDC in the 4th best car.
2004 - 4th in WDC in the 3rd best car.
2005 - Champion in the 2nd quickest but more reliable car
2006 - Champion in probably the joint quickest car, hard to tell
2007 - 3rd in the WDC but level on points with 2nd. I believe in the 2nd fastest car. Others will disagree, lets not open that can of worms.
2008 - 5th in the WDC in the 4th best car
2009 - 9th in the WDC, car's were so close it's hard to order them but probably 8th best on average
2010 - 2nd in WDC in the 2nd best car
2011 - 4th in the WDC in the 3rd best car
2012 - 2nd in the WDC in the 4th best car
2013 - 2nd in the WDC in either the 2nd best car but it swung around a lot.
2014 - 6th in the WDC in the 5th best car
2015 - 17th in the WDC in the 9th best car
2016 - 10th in the WDC in the 6th, or maybe 7th best car
2017 - 15th in the WDC in the 9th best car

In 15 seasons he has finished above where his car should put him, or been champion 13 times.


1. The 2005 and 2006 Renault won the Constructor championship, so Alonso has won his 2 titles with the "best" cars.

2. Alonso has spent 11 years(I am not considering his second McLaren stint) driving for teams(Ferrari)/team managers(Briatore) as the undisputed #1 driver. Earned or not, it is an absolute fact. If you put Button, Hamilton, Vettel as Alonso's teammates in all those years(possibly NOT at Ferrari or with Briatore), you will have a different view on Alonso's prowess.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:22 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Lets take a look at Alonso's record -

2003 - 6th in WDC in the 4th best car.
2004 - 4th in WDC in the 3rd best car.
2005 - Champion in the 2nd quickest but more reliable car
2006 - Champion in probably the joint quickest car, hard to tell
2007 - 3rd in the WDC but level on points with 2nd. I believe in the 2nd fastest car. Others will disagree, lets not open that can of worms.
2008 - 5th in the WDC in the 4th best car
2009 - 9th in the WDC, car's were so close it's hard to order them but probably 8th best on average
2010 - 2nd in WDC in the 2nd best car
2011 - 4th in the WDC in the 3rd best car
2012 - 2nd in the WDC in the 4th best car
2013 - 2nd in the WDC in either the 2nd best car but it swung around a lot.
2014 - 6th in the WDC in the 5th best car
2015 - 17th in the WDC in the 9th best car
2016 - 10th in the WDC in the 6th, or maybe 7th best car
2017 - 15th in the WDC in the 9th best car

In 15 seasons he has finished above where his car should put him, or been champion 13 times.


1. The 2005 and 2006 Renault won the Constructor championship, so Alonso has won his 2 titles with the "best" cars.

2. Alonso has spent 11 years(I am not considering his second McLaren stint) driving for teams(Ferrari)/team managers(Briatore) as the undisputed #1 driver. Earned or not, it is an absolute fact. If you put Button, Hamilton, Vettel as Alonso's teammates in all those years(possibly NOT at Ferrari or with Briatore), you will have a different view on Alonso's prowess.


1) A position in the WCC is partly a reflection of the drivers performance so when things are close, like 2005 and 06 caution should be exercised. But either way he won the championship anyway so he couldn't have finished any higher.

2) Why would Hamilton or Vettel looking better make Alonso a worse driver?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:23 pm 
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Well, Button was soundly beaten by Alonso at McLaren.

And I dare to say, if Vettel had Alonso or Hamilton as a teammate in all those years, his records would look very different as well. ;-)
Probably a non-wdc by now.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:31 pm 
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Does anyone seriously think if Vettel's engine had blown up on the last lap at Abu Dhabi in 2010 and the last lap at Interlagos in 2012 he would be a worse driver because he only had 2 titles? Does anyone think it would make Alonso a better driver because he would have 4? Even though both drivers would have done nothing different in terms of performance.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:39 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Baku 2018Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

Wait, what?

Baku 2018, Singapore 2017, and Baku 2017. Where else?

Hamilton and Alonso have thrown away race wins too. Hamilton in particular has thrown away at least as many potential race wins as Vettel.


Mexico 2017.

Have the others really thrown away that many possible race wins in such a short time while being that experienced (not talking about rookie- or almost-rookie seasons, obviously)?

At Mexico he had already lost the lead before he hit Hamilton.
.


Still, it was a very possible race win. Overtaking, strategy, ....


Ah yes the same Ferrari that could not overtake even with DRS on the Kemmel straight, also there were no pitstops after that no strategy possibility.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:47 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Does anyone seriously think if Vettel's engine had blown up on the last lap at Abu Dhabi in 2010 and the last lap at Interlagos in 2012 he would be a worse driver because he only had 2 titles? Does anyone think it would make Alonso a better driver because he would have 4? Even though both drivers would have done nothing different in terms of performance.


Vettel has 4 titles you think less of him, if he has two I don't need to even wonder what you will think of him.

Also in any sport I know getting to the top and racking up results and titles is how legends and greats are made, but somehow in F1 perception of what can be achieved is more important.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 9:01 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Does anyone seriously think if Vettel's engine had blown up on the last lap at Abu Dhabi in 2010 and the last lap at Interlagos in 2012 he would be a worse driver because he only had 2 titles? Does anyone think it would make Alonso a better driver because he would have 4? Even though both drivers would have done nothing different in terms of performance.


Vettel has 4 titles you think less of him, if he has two I don't need to even wonder what you will think of him.

Also in any sport I know getting to the top and racking up results and titles is how legends and greats are made, but somehow in F1 perception of what can be achieved is more important.


Yes, but F1 or motorsport is one of the few sports where the power doesn't come from the athlete so that inevitably affects opinion.
Very difficult for anyone to deny Usain Bolt's or Mo Farah's greatness.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 9:02 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Does anyone seriously think if Vettel's engine had blown up on the last lap at Abu Dhabi in 2010 and the last lap at Interlagos in 2012 he would be a worse driver because he only had 2 titles? Does anyone think it would make Alonso a better driver because he would have 4? Even though both drivers would have done nothing different in terms of performance.


Vettel has 4 titles you think less of him, if he has two I don't need to even wonder what you will think of him.

Also in any sport I know getting to the top and racking up results and titles is how legends and greats are made, but somehow in F1 perception of what can be achieved is more important.


So if that had happened and Alonso had four championships and Vettel just two would you consider Alonso the better driver? Even though he had driven exactly the same?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 9:08 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I still don't understand how Alonso is the best of his generation, what generation exactly?

Will that be in the '00's or '10's?

As in the '00's we had MSC.

In the '10's it's been between Vettel and Hamilton so I'm wondering exactly which era Alonso has been the best in? Folks confusing what could have been to what actually happened.

What we have is peoples opinion and campaign by commentators of "I wonder what Alonso will be doing in that car" if you are good enough top teams will go out of their way to sign you.

After the worst season of his career so far, Ferrari went out to sign Vettel and buy Alonso out of the last year to build a new future, hence why he ended up at Mclaren.

Same way Mercedes went after Hamilton, after Vettel turning them down in '13
.


Wut? In the real world Alonso left Ferrari for McHonda, Seb left Red Bull for Ferrari and Mercedes targeted Lewis from the get go.

What years should Alonso have beaten Seb or Lewis considering their respective cars and talent levels that he didn't do? I can come up with 2007 with Lewis. And that's it. So not winning as much as them means about as much as asking why couldn't Seb beat Lewis 2014-17. Or why Lewis couldn't beat Seb (Or even Alonso) 2010-13.

What he lacks is his own period in a dominant car to boost his stats. And I dunno about you but if McLaren came up with a trick that left them completely dominant over Ferrari and Mercedes for even just two years then an extra 30 wins,poles and 2 titles against them doesn't really change that much does it? If so, what exactly?

If those periods when those drivers were outside of the dominant car and couldn't win rule them out of the conversation then fair enough, otherwise what's your point again?



Vettel was approached for the Mercedes project before Hamilton, even Lauda confirmed that.

Alonso was shown the door at Ferrari, and if not for a spiteful Horner, Alonso won't have known Vettel had signed with Ferrari, Horner forced Ferrari and Vettel to announce the partnership earlier than they wanted so Alonso had no choice but to go to Mclaren.

Being the best in a generation you cant be outside of a winning team for 11 years, since the last time he won, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Button, Vettel and Rosberg have all won.

So exactly what makes him best, if the best teams refuse to let him in their team?


Source for Seb and Mercedes?

He wasn't shown the door, he refused to sign the extension until 2019 and asked for his gentleman's agreement with Luca to be honoured. James Allison tried to get him to change his mind but apparently Alonso had already decided to go to McLaren.

James Allison wrote:
"No. I couldn’t do it,” the Briton said. “I explained to him that things would change, that the new car was good, the gap would decrease, that staying with us made sense. But he was too disillusioned by then. I was the tenth person that had said it to him — he had heard it for years and no longer believed it.”

https://www.grandprix247.com/2015/05/10 ... t-ferrari/

Helmut Marko even mentioned Alonso being too far down the road with McLaren as one of the considerations why Red Bull didn't try to get him. http://www.thisisf1.com/2014/10/07/red- ... ren-bound/

There's a good reason Sky Italia and every other media outlet took so much joy in asking Alonso about Ferrari's competitiveness in 2015 (And since). You think they do that to someone who's been fired? They frequently brought up his deciding to leave and any regrets in the questions.

Then Arrivabenne went for Seb. From the horses mouth...

Arrivabene wrote:
Normally the team principal is never involved in the driver choice. In the case of Vettel, we were both aware when we were told officially that Fernando was leaving the team around Sochi and the name of Vettel was going around but the situation was unclear. I put a phone call in to a person I know and that he knows very well - it's Sabine Kehm, the manager of Michael.

"Sabine called Sebastian. Sebastian had some doubt, he was asking 'what about Ferrari, I don't know the team'. Sabine described the atmosphere that she found at the time of Michael and said it's a great team, it's like a family and Seb was listening.

However, Arrivabene says it was a subsequent phone call from Marchionne himself that would ultimately convince Vettel to join Ferrari.

"The phone which made the difference after this phone call was from Sergio Marchionne. Without that phone call Sebastian would probably not be here with us. This is the truth."

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/215020/1/ ... in-ferrari


Not saying he is the best of his generation but of course you can be outside of a winning team, only one team gets to win and if his engineers aren't the ones to come up with something then there's not much you can do. Double diffuser,EBD,HPC suspension and lean burn.

All those drivers listed were in those teams when those engineers came up with them except 2, Kimi who won by 1pt from Lewis who should've won on merit and Alonso who could've won if he didn't go in a huff, and the second is Lewis's first title in 08 when he was the best driver by a country mile out of the 4 that had a chance and won despite having one of his dodgiest years. Two pretty unique seasons but yes Alonso really should've done better in those years anyway, on and off track.

The rest had the best tools by a good margin and guess what happened the one time Alonso had those genius ideas from his engineers (mass damper), yep he won. The car is the star, there's a good reason you've been quiet for 4 years and it's not because Seb forgot how to drive. Now he's got the best car again, he's the God again.

For a complicated sport it's really simple in deciding who gets to win. There isn't much performance difference between the Top 5 guys so giving any of them a healthy car advantage is too hard to over come but he's got closer than most to doing it twice and his own two wins were against the Goat with only a car advantage over him in one of them. Believe it or not who you beat and how you beat them to win your titles matters and his are pretty tough to top.

The reason he's talked about is respected people in the game keep talking about him because his performances are hard to ignore whatever the team mate, the car behaviour, the car competitiveness,the conditions, the tyres. the track,the regulations, none of it matters, he's always there putting in performances.

Until that stops, the praise won't.


http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24182/9502110/red-bull-announce-that-sebastian-vettel-is-leaving-at-the-end-of-the-season


:?:

What's this supposed to support or disprove? And where's the Seb-Mercedes source?

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 9:23 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Baku 2018Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

Wait, what?

Baku 2018, Singapore 2017, and Baku 2017. Where else?

Hamilton and Alonso have thrown away race wins too. Hamilton in particular has thrown away at least as many potential race wins as Vettel.


Mexico 2017.

Have the others really thrown away that many possible race wins in such a short time while being that experienced (not talking about rookie- or almost-rookie seasons, obviously)?

At Mexico he had already lost the lead before he hit Hamilton.

If that’s your definition of throwing a race win, Hamilton threw away potential race wins at Australia 2016, Bahrain 2016, Spain 2016, Baku 2016, Monza 2016, and Bahrain 2017.


Singapore '17, are we really counting that? He didn't even touch another car


Really? Ever wonder how he got a big whole in his sidepod?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 9:28 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Same old same old.. Alonso this Alonso that but he is winning nothing (yet), only teammates wars.

I think the biggest fallacy is to confuse teammates performances with "ultimate" performance.
I have zero doubt if McLaren was a TOP car, Vandoorne would perform much much better but it is fair to say that Vandoorne biggest weakness now is that he is BLAND, QUIET, not confident at all and he is incapable to look after his own interest(Remember what Hamilton did in Monaco in 2007?). Had Hamilton been like Stoffel when he started, I am not sure he would be the successful driver he is today.


I have had the impression for many years now that there is something with Alonso's style that is completely foreign to his teammates and tend to make them look worse than they really are. It is like constraining your teammate to play football with his left foot(Alonso's foot) when you know that normally people tend to use their right foot.

Another example of teammate performance fallacy is Hamilton and his teammates who often "seem" to match him in term of points but not in terms of ultimate performance.
A case in point is Hamilton's qualifying record over the years where you can see that there is a gap between his Poles(vs teammates) and simply beating them in qualifying.
When there is a pole at sight, more than often than not he will take it. It happened with Alonso, Button, Kovalainen, Bottas, with the only exception of Rosberg.

2010 and 2012 WDC were there for Alonso to take(unlike Hamilton and Vettel who had their teammates free to race them, Alonso had the whole team behind him), and what went missing are the ultimate performances(mostly in qualifying and in the rain) I just talked about. Don't bring his teammates into the equation because taking teammate performance as an absolute barometer is the biggest fallacy of F1 more so if they drive for Ferrari where they will happily break your gearbox to give a cleaner starting grid slot to your "captain".

Hamilton will not collect 5th places, it is not in his nature and it is not something he has done many times to be honest, but for ultimate performance (1st places) the only guy who matches him is Vettel.

Right now, I think Alonso looks better than he really and he will gain nothing and can only lose in terms of "reputation" battling Hamilton and Vettel at the front.


Alonso's reputation went through the roof during 2010-2014 which is exactly when he was fighting Vettel/Hamilton and was in a Ferrari.

Kind of contradicts your whole post. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 9:30 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Does anyone seriously think if Vettel's engine had blown up on the last lap at Abu Dhabi in 2010 and the last lap at Interlagos in 2012 he would be a worse driver because he only had 2 titles? Does anyone think it would make Alonso a better driver because he would have 4? Even though both drivers would have done nothing different in terms of performance.


This is what I can't get past and why I don't put as much weight into the stats in these type of sports as others do but it's subjective of course, people value different things but this is along the lines of what was first put to me in a similar conversation.

You can literally not need to change a single turn of Alonso's wheel, change a tenth of performance he showed across his career or anything like that and he'd have 2-3 more titles with a failure here or there or a DQ in 07 for Kīmi's illegal floor in Melbourne for example.

No extra brilliance from Alonso
No extra poor performance from his rivals
No better cars
No better team atmosphere

Nowt.

So it's hard to get excited about the pure stats when in a Sport like this they can be so heavily altered without changing a single driving input from Alonso himself. You get exited about the performances that are shown, surely? And those are there whether it's 2 or 4/5.

This isn't an Alonso only thing, you can add or takeway titles to lots of drivers without changing the level of performance they have shown in any way, you can even make Alonso have no titles, never mind the 2 he did get.

The stats are fluff, nice for the drivers themselves and fans of course to celebrate, it's the goal after all, but it's just not much use as a performance indicator when you can turn the stats on their head without changing any performance shown whatsoever from that driver in question.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 9:50 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Same old same old.. Alonso this Alonso that but he is winning nothing (yet), only teammates wars.

I think the biggest fallacy is to confuse teammates performances with "ultimate" performance.
I have zero doubt if McLaren was a TOP car, Vandoorne would perform much much better but it is fair to say that Vandoorne biggest weakness now is that he is BLAND, QUIET, not confident at all and he is incapable to look after his own interest(Remember what Hamilton did in Monaco in 2007?). Had Hamilton been like Stoffel when he started, I am not sure he would be the successful driver he is today.


I have had the impression for many years now that there is something with Alonso's style that is completely foreign to his teammates and tend to make them look worse than they really are. It is like constraining your teammate to play football with his left foot(Alonso's foot) when you know that normally people tend to use their right foot.

Another example of teammate performance fallacy is Hamilton and his teammates who often "seem" to match him in term of points but not in terms of ultimate performance.
A case in point is Hamilton's qualifying record over the years where you can see that there is a gap between his Poles(vs teammates) and simply beating them in qualifying.
When there is a pole at sight, more than often than not he will take it. It happened with Alonso, Button, Kovalainen, Bottas, with the only exception of Rosberg.

2010 and 2012 WDC were there for Alonso to take(unlike Hamilton and Vettel who had their teammates free to race them, Alonso had the whole team behind him), and what went missing are the ultimate performances(mostly in qualifying and in the rain) I just talked about. Don't bring his teammates into the equation because taking teammate performance as an absolute barometer is the biggest fallacy of F1 more so if they drive for Ferrari where they will happily break your gearbox to give a cleaner starting grid slot to your "captain".

Hamilton will not collect 5th places, it is not in his nature and it is not something he has done many times to be honest, but for ultimate performance (1st places) the only guy who matches him is Vettel.

Right now, I think Alonso looks better than he really and he will gain nothing and can only lose in terms of "reputation" battling Hamilton and Vettel at the front.


Alonso's reputation went through the roof during 2010-2014 which is exactly when he was fighting Vettel/Hamilton and was in a Ferrari.

Kind of contradicts your whole post. ;)


Nope.
His reputation went through the roof because of his teammates, aided by the fact that he was driving for Ferrari, a team ready to handicap their #2 driver just to make their #1 driver happy.
We have seen it with Rubens, Massa and now Raikkonen. He was surely fighting Vettel/Hamilton but remember he had the entire team behind him unlike Lewis and Vettel(in 2010).

To be honest, Ferrari created their own monster in Alonso and people tend to make his cars look worse just to elevate him. Who(Mercedes/RedBull) in their right mind would want a driver like this who will take all the credit when he will win?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 10:00 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Does anyone seriously think if Vettel's engine had blown up on the last lap at Abu Dhabi in 2010 and the last lap at Interlagos in 2012 he would be a worse driver because he only had 2 titles? Does anyone think it would make Alonso a better driver because he would have 4? Even though both drivers would have done nothing different in terms of performance.


This is what I can't get past and why I don't put as much weight into the stats in these type of sports as others do but it's subjective of course, people value different things but this is along the lines of what was first put to me in a similar conversation.

You can literally not need to change a single turn of Alonso's wheel, change a tenth of performance he showed across his career or anything like that and he'd have 2-3 more titles with a failure here or there or a DQ in 07 for Kīmi's illegal floor in Melbourne for example.

No extra brilliance from Alonso
No extra poor performance from his rivals
No better cars
No better team atmosphere

Nowt.

So it's hard to get excited about the pure stats when in a Sport like this they can be so heavily altered without changing a single driving input from Alonso himself. You get exited about the performances that are shown, surely? And those are there whether it's 2 or 4/5.

This isn't an Alonso only thing, you can add or takeway titles to lots of drivers without changing the level of performance they have shown in any way, you can even make Alonso have no titles, never mind the 2 he did get.

The stats are fluff, nice for the drivers themselves and fans of course to celebrate, it's the goal after all, but it's just not much use as a performance indicator when you can turn the stats on their head without changing any performance shown whatsoever from that driver in question.


A driver can have luck with a WDC car, but success needs to be nurtured and it is not done only through driving or engineering talent.

When Ferrari announced Vettel as their new driver, I said for Alonso that it was the beginning of the end for him and for Vettel, that there is no way he will have worse stats(wins/poles) than Alonso during his Ferrari years.

You can call it luck if you want, but I don't think it is. With Vettel all you hear is Ferrari, and with Alonso, all you hear is Alonso and how life is cruel.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 10:09 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Does anyone seriously think if Vettel's engine had blown up on the last lap at Abu Dhabi in 2010 and the last lap at Interlagos in 2012 he would be a worse driver because he only had 2 titles? Does anyone think it would make Alonso a better driver because he would have 4? Even though both drivers would have done nothing different in terms of performance.


This is what I can't get past and why I don't put as much weight into the stats in these type of sports as others do but it's subjective of course, people value different things but this is along the lines of what was first put to me in a similar conversation.

You can literally not need to change a single turn of Alonso's wheel, change a tenth of performance he showed across his career or anything like that and he'd have 2-3 more titles with a failure here or there or a DQ in 07 for Kīmi's illegal floor in Melbourne for example.

No extra brilliance from Alonso
No extra poor performance from his rivals
No better cars
No better team atmosphere

Nowt.

So it's hard to get excited about the pure stats when in a Sport like this they can be so heavily altered without changing a single driving input from Alonso himself. You get exited about the performances that are shown, surely? And those are there whether it's 2 or 4/5.

This isn't an Alonso only thing, you can add or takeway titles to lots of drivers without changing the level of performance they have shown in any way, you can even make Alonso have no titles, never mind the 2 he did get.

The stats are fluff, nice for the drivers themselves and fans of course to celebrate, it's the goal after all, but it's just not much use as a performance indicator when you can turn the stats on their head without changing any performance shown whatsoever from that driver in question.


A driver can have luck with a WDC car, but success needs to be nurtured and it is not done only through driving or engineering talent.

When Ferrari announced Vettel as their new driver, I said for Alonso that it was the beginning of the end for him and for Vettel, that there is no way he will have worse stats(wins/poles) than Alonso during his Ferrari years.

You can call it luck if you want, but I don't think it is. With Vettel all you hear is Ferrari, and with Alonso, all you hear is Alonso and how life is cruel.


You are aware Vettel scored less wins and worse WDC positions in his first three years with Ferrari than Alonso?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 10:36 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Does anyone seriously think if Vettel's engine had blown up on the last lap at Abu Dhabi in 2010 and the last lap at Interlagos in 2012 he would be a worse driver because he only had 2 titles? Does anyone think it would make Alonso a better driver because he would have 4? Even though both drivers would have done nothing different in terms of performance.


This is what I can't get past and why I don't put as much weight into the stats in these type of sports as others do but it's subjective of course, people value different things but this is along the lines of what was first put to me in a similar conversation.

You can literally not need to change a single turn of Alonso's wheel, change a tenth of performance he showed across his career or anything like that and he'd have 2-3 more titles with a failure here or there or a DQ in 07 for Kīmi's illegal floor in Melbourne for example.

No extra brilliance from Alonso
No extra poor performance from his rivals
No better cars
No better team atmosphere

Nowt.

So it's hard to get excited about the pure stats when in a Sport like this they can be so heavily altered without changing a single driving input from Alonso himself. You get exited about the performances that are shown, surely? And those are there whether it's 2 or 4/5.

This isn't an Alonso only thing, you can add or takeway titles to lots of drivers without changing the level of performance they have shown in any way, you can even make Alonso have no titles, never mind the 2 he did get.

The stats are fluff, nice for the drivers themselves and fans of course to celebrate, it's the goal after all, but it's just not much use as a performance indicator when you can turn the stats on their head without changing any performance shown whatsoever from that driver in question.


A driver can have luck with a WDC car, but success needs to be nurtured and it is not done only through driving or engineering talent.

When Ferrari announced Vettel as their new driver, I said for Alonso that it was the beginning of the end for him and for Vettel, that there is no way he will have worse stats(wins/poles) than Alonso during his Ferrari years.

You can call it luck if you want, but I don't think it is. With Vettel all you hear is Ferrari, and with Alonso, all you hear is Alonso and how life is cruel.


I wouldn't call it luck exactly but just better circumstances. One quick thing is Maranello itsellf.

Alonso's time had wind tunnel issues and infrastructure deficiencies to it's main rivals and a boss still in the mindset they had everything they need.

Sergio came in and brought class leading AVL test benches, hundreds of millions spent on new infrastructure and buildimgs housing state of the art sims and full chassis dyno's to the point it's as good as anything RB or Mercedes have. That's a huge advantage in the ability to produce better cars that Alonso didn't have and has been evidenced in their last few cars.

You could argue he should've done more to get Luca to open the wallet and get their facilities to their rivals standards but without knowing what he did in the first place it's a bit of an empty criticism.

It's just the way it falls and seemingly it falls badly for Alonso in multiple ways. Another quick one is the state of the PU Alonso left. He left at the end of summer and at that point the Ferrari PU was consensus worse because it had the same deficiencies as Renault but with a worse ERS system. And we had a token system locking that design in for the most part. Pretty hopeless looking situation.

Within 4 months of his leaving Allison found the loophole that killed the token system,Mahle brought them TJI which turned around their ICE, Cornebois brought the oil burn knowledge from Mercedes and Renault somehow managed to go backwards.

You just can't account for that level of things falling against you and for someone else and it's got nothing to do with the kumbaya rubbish we've spoke of before. Seb didn't suddenly turn into an expletive during the winter 2013/14, Mercedes simply brought things RB-Renault didn't.

Luck or just circumstances, call it what you want but Alonso hasn't had it since his first Renault stint when he had the engineers coming up with the tricks and a bespoke fuel and tyre supplier giving him priority. And guess what happened, he won. Give him it again and he'll do the same I'm sure.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 10:55 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Same old same old.. Alonso this Alonso that but he is winning nothing (yet), only teammates wars.

I think the biggest fallacy is to confuse teammates performances with "ultimate" performance.
I have zero doubt if McLaren was a TOP car, Vandoorne would perform much much better but it is fair to say that Vandoorne biggest weakness now is that he is BLAND, QUIET, not confident at all and he is incapable to look after his own interest(Remember what Hamilton did in Monaco in 2007?). Had Hamilton been like Stoffel when he started, I am not sure he would be the successful driver he is today.


I have had the impression for many years now that there is something with Alonso's style that is completely foreign to his teammates and tend to make them look worse than they really are. It is like constraining your teammate to play football with his left foot(Alonso's foot) when you know that normally people tend to use their right foot.

Another example of teammate performance fallacy is Hamilton and his teammates who often "seem" to match him in term of points but not in terms of ultimate performance.
A case in point is Hamilton's qualifying record over the years where you can see that there is a gap between his Poles(vs teammates) and simply beating them in qualifying.
When there is a pole at sight, more than often than not he will take it. It happened with Alonso, Button, Kovalainen, Bottas, with the only exception of Rosberg.

2010 and 2012 WDC were there for Alonso to take(unlike Hamilton and Vettel who had their teammates free to race them, Alonso had the whole team behind him), and what went missing are the ultimate performances(mostly in qualifying and in the rain) I just talked about. Don't bring his teammates into the equation because taking teammate performance as an absolute barometer is the biggest fallacy of F1 more so if they drive for Ferrari where they will happily break your gearbox to give a cleaner starting grid slot to your "captain".

Hamilton will not collect 5th places, it is not in his nature and it is not something he has done many times to be honest, but for ultimate performance (1st places) the only guy who matches him is Vettel.

Right now, I think Alonso looks better than he really and he will gain nothing and can only lose in terms of "reputation" battling Hamilton and Vettel at the front.


Alonso's reputation went through the roof during 2010-2014 which is exactly when he was fighting Vettel/Hamilton and was in a Ferrari.

Kind of contradicts your whole post. ;)


Nope.
His reputation went through the roof because of his teammates, aided by the fact that he was driving for Ferrari, a team ready to handicap their #2 driver just to make their #1 driver happy.
We have seen it with Rubens, Massa and now Raikkonen. He was surely fighting Vettel/Hamilton but remember he had the entire team behind him unlike Lewis and Vettel(in 2010).

To be honest, Ferrari created their own monster in Alonso and people tend to make his cars look worse just to elevate him. Who(Mercedes/RedBull) in their right mind would want a driver like this who will take all the credit when he will win?


Seems like you're just having a general rant about why you don't like Alonso. :)

To address your points:
- Massa and Alonso were given equal status until it was clear that only Alonso had a chance at the championship. No different to Red Bull or Mclaren.
- Alonso gave full credit to his team when they deserved it. Look at Monza 2010 for example where he gave plaudits to his team for the strategy which allowed him to pass Button.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 10:57 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Does anyone seriously think if Vettel's engine had blown up on the last lap at Abu Dhabi in 2010 and the last lap at Interlagos in 2012 he would be a worse driver because he only had 2 titles? Does anyone think it would make Alonso a better driver because he would have 4? Even though both drivers would have done nothing different in terms of performance.


This is what I can't get past and why I don't put as much weight into the stats in these type of sports as others do but it's subjective of course, people value different things but this is along the lines of what was first put to me in a similar conversation.

You can literally not need to change a single turn of Alonso's wheel, change a tenth of performance he showed across his career or anything like that and he'd have 2-3 more titles with a failure here or there or a DQ in 07 for Kīmi's illegal floor in Melbourne for example.

No extra brilliance from Alonso
No extra poor performance from his rivals
No better cars
No better team atmosphere

Nowt.

So it's hard to get excited about the pure stats when in a Sport like this they can be so heavily altered without changing a single driving input from Alonso himself. You get exited about the performances that are shown, surely? And those are there whether it's 2 or 4/5.

This isn't an Alonso only thing, you can add or takeway titles to lots of drivers without changing the level of performance they have shown in any way, you can even make Alonso have no titles, never mind the 2 he did get.

The stats are fluff, nice for the drivers themselves and fans of course to celebrate, it's the goal after all, but it's just not much use as a performance indicator when you can turn the stats on their head without changing any performance shown whatsoever from that driver in question.


A driver can have luck with a WDC car, but success needs to be nurtured and it is not done only through driving or engineering talent.

When Ferrari announced Vettel as their new driver, I said for Alonso that it was the beginning of the end for him and for Vettel, that there is no way he will have worse stats(wins/poles) than Alonso during his Ferrari years.

You can call it luck if you want, but I don't think it is. With Vettel all you hear is Ferrari, and with Alonso, all you hear is Alonso and how life is cruel.


I wouldn't call it luck exactly but just better circumstances. One quick thing is Maranello itsellf.

Alonso's time had wind tunnel issues and infrastructure deficiencies to it's main rivals and a boss still in the mindset they had everything they need.

Sergio came in and brought class leading AVL test benches, hundreds of millions spent on new infrastructure and buildimgs housing state of the art sims and full chassis dyno's to the point it's as good as anything RB or Mercedes have. That's a huge advantage in the ability to produce better cars that Alonso didn't have and has been evidenced in their last few cars.

You could argue he should've done more to get Luca to open the wallet and get their facilities to their rivals standards but without knowing what he did in the first place it's a bit of an empty criticism.

It's just the way it falls and seemingly it falls badly for Alonso in multiple ways. Another quick one is the state of the PU Alonso left. He left at the end of summer and at that point the Ferrari PU was consensus worse because it had the same deficiencies as Renault but with a worse ERS system. And we had a token system locking that design in for the most part. Pretty hopeless looking situation.

Within 4 months of his leaving Allison found the loophole that killed the token system,Mahle brought them TJI which turned around their ICE, Cornebois brought the oil burn knowledge from Mercedes and Renault somehow managed to go backwards.

You just can't account for that level of things falling against you and for someone else and it's got nothing to do with the kumbaya rubbish we've spoke of before. Seb didn't suddenly turn into an expletive during the winter 2013/14, Mercedes simply brought things RB-Renault didn't.

Luck or just circumstances, call it what you want but Alonso hasn't had it since his first Renault stint when he had the engineers coming up with the tricks and a bespoke fuel and tyre supplier giving him priority. And guess what happened, he won. Give him it again and he'll do the same I'm sure.


Again, you are talking about engineering in isolation.
The problem with Alonso is that he wants to be a driver and the team manager.
I have heard disrespectulf radio communications between Alonso and his Ferrari engineers, something Vettel will not do. Sebastian is JUST a driver.

Alonso had a shot(albeit small) to drive for a Top team again and what was his genius move? He decided to skip Monaco GP for the Indy 500 to show he is bigger than Hamilton/Vettel/F1 alienating people(Lauda/Wolff/Horner/Ecclestone/F1 drivers) in the process. We know drivers are egomaniac but he is a special one and I strongly believe his lack of success can not be attributed to bad luck.

Some drivers are better fit to certain teams than others and engineers/rule makers/Big wigs will go the extra mile just to make them fast again.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 11:02 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Same old same old.. Alonso this Alonso that but he is winning nothing (yet), only teammates wars.

I think the biggest fallacy is to confuse teammates performances with "ultimate" performance.
I have zero doubt if McLaren was a TOP car, Vandoorne would perform much much better but it is fair to say that Vandoorne biggest weakness now is that he is BLAND, QUIET, not confident at all and he is incapable to look after his own interest(Remember what Hamilton did in Monaco in 2007?). Had Hamilton been like Stoffel when he started, I am not sure he would be the successful driver he is today.


I have had the impression for many years now that there is something with Alonso's style that is completely foreign to his teammates and tend to make them look worse than they really are. It is like constraining your teammate to play football with his left foot(Alonso's foot) when you know that normally people tend to use their right foot.

Another example of teammate performance fallacy is Hamilton and his teammates who often "seem" to match him in term of points but not in terms of ultimate performance.
A case in point is Hamilton's qualifying record over the years where you can see that there is a gap between his Poles(vs teammates) and simply beating them in qualifying.
When there is a pole at sight, more than often than not he will take it. It happened with Alonso, Button, Kovalainen, Bottas, with the only exception of Rosberg.

2010 and 2012 WDC were there for Alonso to take(unlike Hamilton and Vettel who had their teammates free to race them, Alonso had the whole team behind him), and what went missing are the ultimate performances(mostly in qualifying and in the rain) I just talked about. Don't bring his teammates into the equation because taking teammate performance as an absolute barometer is the biggest fallacy of F1 more so if they drive for Ferrari where they will happily break your gearbox to give a cleaner starting grid slot to your "captain".

Hamilton will not collect 5th places, it is not in his nature and it is not something he has done many times to be honest, but for ultimate performance (1st places) the only guy who matches him is Vettel.

Right now, I think Alonso looks better than he really and he will gain nothing and can only lose in terms of "reputation" battling Hamilton and Vettel at the front.


Alonso's reputation went through the roof during 2010-2014 which is exactly when he was fighting Vettel/Hamilton and was in a Ferrari.

Kind of contradicts your whole post. ;)


Nope.
His reputation went through the roof because of his teammates, aided by the fact that he was driving for Ferrari, a team ready to handicap their #2 driver just to make their #1 driver happy.
We have seen it with Rubens, Massa and now Raikkonen. He was surely fighting Vettel/Hamilton but remember he had the entire team behind him unlike Lewis and Vettel(in 2010).

To be honest, Ferrari created their own monster in Alonso and people tend to make his cars look worse just to elevate him. Who(Mercedes/RedBull) in their right mind would want a driver like this who will take all the credit when he will win?


Seems like you're just having a general rant about why you don't like Alonso. :)

To address your points:
- Massa and Alonso were given equal status until it was clear that only Alonso had a chance at the championship. No different to Red Bull or Mclaren.
- Alonso gave full credit to his team when they deserved it. Look at Monza 2010 for example where he gave plaudits to his team for the strategy which allowed him to pass Button.


I don't consider him a team player and I believe his reputation is bigger than his talent.
McLaren and RedBull(in 2010) had TWO drivers not only one like Ferrari.

The Equal status lie lasted until the 2010 Chinese Grand Prix, the 4th GP of the season!!! It is not Alonso's fault, but the way Ferrari works and you should at least acknowledge it.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 11:03 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14276
Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Does anyone seriously think if Vettel's engine had blown up on the last lap at Abu Dhabi in 2010 and the last lap at Interlagos in 2012 he would be a worse driver because he only had 2 titles? Does anyone think it would make Alonso a better driver because he would have 4? Even though both drivers would have done nothing different in terms of performance.


This is what I can't get past and why I don't put as much weight into the stats in these type of sports as others do but it's subjective of course, people value different things but this is along the lines of what was first put to me in a similar conversation.

You can literally not need to change a single turn of Alonso's wheel, change a tenth of performance he showed across his career or anything like that and he'd have 2-3 more titles with a failure here or there or a DQ in 07 for Kīmi's illegal floor in Melbourne for example.

No extra brilliance from Alonso
No extra poor performance from his rivals
No better cars
No better team atmosphere

Nowt.

So it's hard to get excited about the pure stats when in a Sport like this they can be so heavily altered without changing a single driving input from Alonso himself. You get exited about the performances that are shown, surely? And those are there whether it's 2 or 4/5.

This isn't an Alonso only thing, you can add or takeway titles to lots of drivers without changing the level of performance they have shown in any way, you can even make Alonso have no titles, never mind the 2 he did get.

The stats are fluff, nice for the drivers themselves and fans of course to celebrate, it's the goal after all, but it's just not much use as a performance indicator when you can turn the stats on their head without changing any performance shown whatsoever from that driver in question.


A driver can have luck with a WDC car, but success needs to be nurtured and it is not done only through driving or engineering talent.

When Ferrari announced Vettel as their new driver, I said for Alonso that it was the beginning of the end for him and for Vettel, that there is no way he will have worse stats(wins/poles) than Alonso during his Ferrari years.

You can call it luck if you want, but I don't think it is. With Vettel all you hear is Ferrari, and with Alonso, all you hear is Alonso and how life is cruel.


I wouldn't call it luck exactly but just better circumstances. One quick thing is Maranello itsellf.

Alonso's time had wind tunnel issues and infrastructure deficiencies to it's main rivals and a boss still in the mindset they had everything they need.

Sergio came in and brought class leading AVL test benches, hundreds of millions spent on new infrastructure and buildimgs housing state of the art sims and full chassis dyno's to the point it's as good as anything RB or Mercedes have. That's a huge advantage in the ability to produce better cars that Alonso didn't have and has been evidenced in their last few cars.

You could argue he should've done more to get Luca to open the wallet and get their facilities to their rivals standards but without knowing what he did in the first place it's a bit of an empty criticism.

It's just the way it falls and seemingly it falls badly for Alonso in multiple ways. Another quick one is the state of the PU Alonso left. He left at the end of summer and at that point the Ferrari PU was consensus worse because it had the same deficiencies as Renault but with a worse ERS system. And we had a token system locking that design in for the most part. Pretty hopeless looking situation.

Within 4 months of his leaving Allison found the loophole that killed the token system,Mahle brought them TJI which turned around their ICE, Cornebois brought the oil burn knowledge from Mercedes and Renault somehow managed to go backwards.

You just can't account for that level of things falling against you and for someone else and it's got nothing to do with the kumbaya rubbish we've spoke of before. Seb didn't suddenly turn into an expletive during the winter 2013/14, Mercedes simply brought things RB-Renault didn't.

Luck or just circumstances, call it what you want but Alonso hasn't had it since his first Renault stint when he had the engineers coming up with the tricks and a bespoke fuel and tyre supplier giving him priority. And guess what happened, he won. Give him it again and he'll do the same I'm sure.


Again, you are talking about engineering in isolation.
The problem with Alonso is that he wants to be a driver and the team manager.
I have heard disrespectulf radio communications between Alonso and his Ferrari engineers, something Vettel will not do. Sebastian is JUST a driver.

Alonso had a shot(albeit small) to drive for a Top team again and what was his genius move? He decided to skip Monaco GP for the Indy 500 to show he is bigger than Hamilton/Vettel/F1 alienating people(Lauda/Wolff/Horner/Ecclestone/F1 drivers) in the process. We know drivers are egomaniac but he is a special one and I strongly believe his lack of success can not be attributed to bad luck.

Some drivers are better fit to certain teams than others and engineers/rule makers/Big wigs will go the extra mile just to make them fast again.


Even if you believe this, which I don't, I really don't see how it makes Alonso worse at driving an F1 car?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 11:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:04 pm
Posts: 752
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

This is what I can't get past and why I don't put as much weight into the stats in these type of sports as others do but it's subjective of course, people value different things but this is along the lines of what was first put to me in a similar conversation.

You can literally not need to change a single turn of Alonso's wheel, change a tenth of performance he showed across his career or anything like that and he'd have 2-3 more titles with a failure here or there or a DQ in 07 for Kīmi's illegal floor in Melbourne for example.

No extra brilliance from Alonso
No extra poor performance from his rivals
No better cars
No better team atmosphere

Nowt.

So it's hard to get excited about the pure stats when in a Sport like this they can be so heavily altered without changing a single driving input from Alonso himself. You get exited about the performances that are shown, surely? And those are there whether it's 2 or 4/5.

This isn't an Alonso only thing, you can add or takeway titles to lots of drivers without changing the level of performance they have shown in any way, you can even make Alonso have no titles, never mind the 2 he did get.

The stats are fluff, nice for the drivers themselves and fans of course to celebrate, it's the goal after all, but it's just not much use as a performance indicator when you can turn the stats on their head without changing any performance shown whatsoever from that driver in question.


A driver can have luck with a WDC car, but success needs to be nurtured and it is not done only through driving or engineering talent.

When Ferrari announced Vettel as their new driver, I said for Alonso that it was the beginning of the end for him and for Vettel, that there is no way he will have worse stats(wins/poles) than Alonso during his Ferrari years.

You can call it luck if you want, but I don't think it is. With Vettel all you hear is Ferrari, and with Alonso, all you hear is Alonso and how life is cruel.


I wouldn't call it luck exactly but just better circumstances. One quick thing is Maranello itsellf.

Alonso's time had wind tunnel issues and infrastructure deficiencies to it's main rivals and a boss still in the mindset they had everything they need.

Sergio came in and brought class leading AVL test benches, hundreds of millions spent on new infrastructure and buildimgs housing state of the art sims and full chassis dyno's to the point it's as good as anything RB or Mercedes have. That's a huge advantage in the ability to produce better cars that Alonso didn't have and has been evidenced in their last few cars.

You could argue he should've done more to get Luca to open the wallet and get their facilities to their rivals standards but without knowing what he did in the first place it's a bit of an empty criticism.

It's just the way it falls and seemingly it falls badly for Alonso in multiple ways. Another quick one is the state of the PU Alonso left. He left at the end of summer and at that point the Ferrari PU was consensus worse because it had the same deficiencies as Renault but with a worse ERS system. And we had a token system locking that design in for the most part. Pretty hopeless looking situation.

Within 4 months of his leaving Allison found the loophole that killed the token system,Mahle brought them TJI which turned around their ICE, Cornebois brought the oil burn knowledge from Mercedes and Renault somehow managed to go backwards.

You just can't account for that level of things falling against you and for someone else and it's got nothing to do with the kumbaya rubbish we've spoke of before. Seb didn't suddenly turn into an expletive during the winter 2013/14, Mercedes simply brought things RB-Renault didn't.

Luck or just circumstances, call it what you want but Alonso hasn't had it since his first Renault stint when he had the engineers coming up with the tricks and a bespoke fuel and tyre supplier giving him priority. And guess what happened, he won. Give him it again and he'll do the same I'm sure.


Again, you are talking about engineering in isolation.
The problem with Alonso is that he wants to be a driver and the team manager.
I have heard disrespectulf radio communications between Alonso and his Ferrari engineers, something Vettel will not do. Sebastian is JUST a driver.

Alonso had a shot(albeit small) to drive for a Top team again and what was his genius move? He decided to skip Monaco GP for the Indy 500 to show he is bigger than Hamilton/Vettel/F1 alienating people(Lauda/Wolff/Horner/Ecclestone/F1 drivers) in the process. We know drivers are egomaniac but he is a special one and I strongly believe his lack of success can not be attributed to bad luck.

Some drivers are better fit to certain teams than others and engineers/rule makers/Big wigs will go the extra mile just to make them fast again.


Even if you believe this, which I don't, I really don't see how it makes Alonso worse at driving an F1 car?


I am not sure what you are asking??


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 11:21 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:11 pm
Posts: 2000
Pullrod wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Same old same old.. Alonso this Alonso that but he is winning nothing (yet), only teammates wars.

I think the biggest fallacy is to confuse teammates performances with "ultimate" performance.
I have zero doubt if McLaren was a TOP car, Vandoorne would perform much much better but it is fair to say that Vandoorne biggest weakness now is that he is BLAND, QUIET, not confident at all and he is incapable to look after his own interest(Remember what Hamilton did in Monaco in 2007?). Had Hamilton been like Stoffel when he started, I am not sure he would be the successful driver he is today.


I have had the impression for many years now that there is something with Alonso's style that is completely foreign to his teammates and tend to make them look worse than they really are. It is like constraining your teammate to play football with his left foot(Alonso's foot) when you know that normally people tend to use their right foot.

Another example of teammate performance fallacy is Hamilton and his teammates who often "seem" to match him in term of points but not in terms of ultimate performance.
A case in point is Hamilton's qualifying record over the years where you can see that there is a gap between his Poles(vs teammates) and simply beating them in qualifying.
When there is a pole at sight, more than often than not he will take it. It happened with Alonso, Button, Kovalainen, Bottas, with the only exception of Rosberg.

2010 and 2012 WDC were there for Alonso to take(unlike Hamilton and Vettel who had their teammates free to race them, Alonso had the whole team behind him), and what went missing are the ultimate performances(mostly in qualifying and in the rain) I just talked about. Don't bring his teammates into the equation because taking teammate performance as an absolute barometer is the biggest fallacy of F1 more so if they drive for Ferrari where they will happily break your gearbox to give a cleaner starting grid slot to your "captain".

Hamilton will not collect 5th places, it is not in his nature and it is not something he has done many times to be honest, but for ultimate performance (1st places) the only guy who matches him is Vettel.

Right now, I think Alonso looks better than he really and he will gain nothing and can only lose in terms of "reputation" battling Hamilton and Vettel at the front.


Alonso's reputation went through the roof during 2010-2014 which is exactly when he was fighting Vettel/Hamilton and was in a Ferrari.

Kind of contradicts your whole post. ;)


Nope.
His reputation went through the roof because of his teammates, aided by the fact that he was driving for Ferrari, a team ready to handicap their #2 driver just to make their #1 driver happy.
We have seen it with Rubens, Massa and now Raikkonen. He was surely fighting Vettel/Hamilton but remember he had the entire team behind him unlike Lewis and Vettel(in 2010).

To be honest, Ferrari created their own monster in Alonso and people tend to make his cars look worse just to elevate him. Who(Mercedes/RedBull) in their right mind would want a driver like this who will take all the credit when he will win?


Seems like you're just having a general rant about why you don't like Alonso. :)

To address your points:
- Massa and Alonso were given equal status until it was clear that only Alonso had a chance at the championship. No different to Red Bull or Mclaren.
- Alonso gave full credit to his team when they deserved it. Look at Monza 2010 for example where he gave plaudits to his team for the strategy which allowed him to pass Button.


I don't consider him a team player and I believe his reputation is bigger than his talent.
McLaren and RedBull(in 2010) had TWO drivers not only one like Ferrari.

The Equal status lie lasted until the 2010 Chinese Grand Prix, the 4th GP of the season!!! It is not Alonso's fault, but the way Ferrari works and you should at least acknowledge it.


Ferrari had 2 drivers - Alonso and Massa.

Alonso and Massa were fighting it out in China 2010. No team orders there.

Ferrari worked that way in 2002 under Todt. We are however discussing 2010 under Domenicali.

All i read from you is criticisms about Alonso related to his ego and his team radios etc. No one says you have to like him personally. We are here to discuss his driving skill.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 11:58 pm 
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Posts: 1701
davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

I don't consider him a team player and I believe his reputation is bigger than his talent.
McLaren and RedBull(in 2010) had TWO drivers not only one like Ferrari.

The Equal status lie lasted until the 2010 Chinese Grand Prix, the 4th GP of the season!!! It is not Alonso's fault, but the way Ferrari works and you should at least acknowledge it.


Ferrari had 2 drivers - Alonso and Massa.

Alonso and Massa were fighting it out in China 2010. No team orders there.

Ferrari worked that way in 2002 under Todt. We are however discussing 2010 under Domenicali.

All i read from you is criticisms about Alonso related to his ego and his team radios etc. No one says you have to like him personally. We are here to discuss his driving skill.


I'm sure he meant Germany there and not China, the "Fernando is faster than you debacle".


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:03 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1701
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:


:?:

What's this supposed to support or disprove? And where's the Seb-Mercedes source?


The fact you think Alonso left Ferrari and he was not shown the door, he had no hand negotiating with Mclaren and it was Honda that wanted him.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:12 am 
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Posts: 1701
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Does anyone seriously think if Vettel's engine had blown up on the last lap at Abu Dhabi in 2010 and the last lap at Interlagos in 2012 he would be a worse driver because he only had 2 titles? Does anyone think it would make Alonso a better driver because he would have 4? Even though both drivers would have done nothing different in terms of performance.


Vettel has 4 titles you think less of him, if he has two I don't need to even wonder what you will think of him.

Also in any sport I know getting to the top and racking up results and titles is how legends and greats are made, but somehow in F1 perception of what can be achieved is more important.


So if that had happened and Alonso had four championships and Vettel just two would you consider Alonso the better driver? Even though he had driven exactly the same?


Yes I will, also he could not have driven exactly the same. I put a lot of weight on success in any field no one achieves success by being lucky, where preparation meets opportunity people see it as luck.

So my question to you is how will you rate Vettel if your above scenario had happened?

There is a reason Messi and Ronaldo can still not be put in the same league as Pele and Maradonna and it's not because they are not scoring or playing well but because of their lack of World cup Success.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:28 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1701
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Does anyone seriously think if Vettel's engine had blown up on the last lap at Abu Dhabi in 2010 and the last lap at Interlagos in 2012 he would be a worse driver because he only had 2 titles? Does anyone think it would make Alonso a better driver because he would have 4? Even though both drivers would have done nothing different in terms of performance.


This is what I can't get past and why I don't put as much weight into the stats in these type of sports as others do but it's subjective of course, people value different things but this is along the lines of what was first put to me in a similar conversation.

You can literally not need to change a single turn of Alonso's wheel, change a tenth of performance he showed across his career or anything like that and he'd have 2-3 more titles with a failure here or there or a DQ in 07 for Kīmi's illegal floor in Melbourne for example.

No extra brilliance from Alonso
No extra poor performance from his rivals
No better cars
No better team atmosphere

Nowt.

So it's hard to get excited about the pure stats when in a Sport like this they can be so heavily altered without changing a single driving input from Alonso himself. You get exited about the performances that are shown, surely? And those are there whether it's 2 or 4/5.

This isn't an Alonso only thing, you can add or takeway titles to lots of drivers without changing the level of performance they have shown in any way, you can even make Alonso have no titles, never mind the 2 he did get.

The stats are fluff, nice for the drivers themselves and fans of course to celebrate, it's the goal after all, but it's just not much use as a performance indicator when you can turn the stats on their head without changing any performance shown whatsoever from that driver in question.


A driver can have luck with a WDC car, but success needs to be nurtured and it is not done only through driving or engineering talent.

When Ferrari announced Vettel as their new driver, I said for Alonso that it was the beginning of the end for him and for Vettel, that there is no way he will have worse stats(wins/poles) than Alonso during his Ferrari years.

You can call it luck if you want, but I don't think it is. With Vettel all you hear is Ferrari, and with Alonso, all you hear is Alonso and how life is cruel.


You are aware Vettel scored less wins and worse WDC positions in his first three years with Ferrari than Alonso?


That's due to the dominance of the Mercedes, in the first 3 years of Vettel at Ferrari, wins from non Mercedes driver was 10 and Vettel won 8 races that's 80% of wins available.

To put it in perspective Button won the same amount of races between '10 and '12 as Hamilton's team mate who won as well.

Also Webber made Alonso look good, when Vettel was leaving the field in his wake, Webber lagged behind but somehow this is not a positive for Vettel but it's used as a positive for Alonso Redbull should have finished 1-2 from '10 - '13.


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