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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:27 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

It can also be when Alonso puts in a season as good as Vettel's 2011 or 2013.

Even with the Mercedes dominance none of their drivers to date has put in a season as good as that.


He already has though?


When?


The years I mentioned previously? Vettel 2011 was exceptional certainly his best year. His 2013 as an overall package I wouldn't say was his best work. He definitely managed to lock out what his car was a capable of in the second half of the season but I found the first half a bit lack lustre if we are judging it as right at the top end of brilliance.

Vettel is a great F1 driver. For me he stands on the precipice of the top 10 of all time so I'm honestly not trying to do him down. I just don't think over his career he has been as impressive as Alonso.


Over his career he has been head and shoulders above Alonso, except if viewed through rose tinted glasses.

Since '07 F1 has revolved around 2 drivers Vettel and Hamilton they were up n coming then, but now have 4 titles each when this era of F1 is written in future, Alonso is just going to be a footnote in it harsh but true.

In terms of results sure. But I thought we were talking about the driver, not driver/car package?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:32 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

It can also be when Alonso puts in a season as good as Vettel's 2011 or 2013.

Even with the Mercedes dominance none of their drivers to date has put in a season as good as that.


He already has though?


When?


The two years he mentioned obviously.

What you're looking for is dominant car years, ie poles to flag, multiple wins in a row type of year etc... Well guess what you need for those kind of years. A completely dominant car, bulletproof reliability and a team mate in your pocket.

His pockets tend to be full and he's had both good and bad cars reliability wise but alas no dominant cars as of yet, not even the quickest one over a season, and very unlikely to have one so there's zero chance of those kind of years but next to Webber in a Red Bull and he'd have a good chance imo.

Next to Nico in a Merc, probably not as the situation was different because of how dominant it was it allowed Nico to always be the one right behind and they weren't allowed to split strategy so often it just came down to qualy where Nico was at his strongest or the start which is arguably the only meh weapon in Lewis's arsenal, so it was pretty unique circumstances all in all.

2017 for Seb and what's looking like 2018 for Lewis anyway (But could switch as it's still very early) are examples of 2006 and 2012 type years where you could be in the running if you're consistent enough. You can add the Bull drivers too for this year in a 2012 context (regular half a second deficit to pole sitting Vettel but less deficit in the race).

We'll see how they get on but so far only Dan seems consistent enough but it's way too early to call.


I think a lot of rewriting of history is going on with '12 I guess the renault alternators failing Vettel has nothing to do with Alonso getting close.
Maybe a rewatch of that season is needed, a race like Valencia is a perfect example where Vettel was leading comfortably and the alternator gave up turning what would have been a 32pt lead to a 7pt lead.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:33 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

It can also be when Alonso puts in a season as good as Vettel's 2011 or 2013.

Even with the Mercedes dominance none of their drivers to date has put in a season as good as that.


He already has though?


When?


The years I mentioned previously? Vettel 2011 was exceptional certainly his best year. His 2013 as an overall package I wouldn't say was his best work. He definitely managed to lock out what his car was a capable of in the second half of the season but I found the first half a bit lack lustre if we are judging it as right at the top end of brilliance.

Vettel is a great F1 driver. For me he stands on the precipice of the top 10 of all time so I'm honestly not trying to do him down. I just don't think over his career he has been as impressive as Alonso.


Over his career he has been head and shoulders above Alonso, except if viewed through rose tinted glasses.

Since '07 F1 has revolved around 2 drivers Vettel and Hamilton they were up n coming then, but now have 4 titles each when this era of F1 is written in future, Alonso is just going to be a footnote in it harsh but true.


I never claimed Alonso was the more successful driver? Just that his driving itself was more impressive than anything I've seen from the likes of Hamilton or Vettel.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:33 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Is there another pair of drivers who dislike each other so obviously?

Drivers get angry in the heat of the moment, but these two seem to hold a genuine grudge.

Silverstone 2014: constant whining and bickering about who is exceeding track limits, Vettel complains about how Alonso is running him off the circuit. I don’t ever remember more complaining in any race between two drivers.

Abu Dhabi 2015: Alonso holds up Vettel when he is being lapped. Vettel says on the team radio: “I mean he must really hate me, I don’t know what’s wrong with him. I’m losing a second just because of that.”

Brazil 2016: Vettel overtakes Alonso and shoves him off the circuit. Alonso responds with an angry team radio.

Malaysia 2017: Vettel is chasing Ricciardo, then Alonso holds up Vettel massively when being lapped. Vettel says on the team radio “come on Fernando, you’re better than that”.

China 2018: Alonso overtakes Vettel and runs him off the circuit completely, Vettel responds with an angry radio message.


You could add Hockenheim and Singapore 2010. And Monza in 2011 and 2012. I'm positive there's more as well.

Alonso hit Seb's rear in Malaysia 2013 but there was no moaning about it from either from what I recall, just a tap that had big consequences for Alonso.

Baku last year I thought Alonso went a bit too far fighting Seb while being lapped but pretty much waved Lewis through straight after. Something similar in Malaysia last year as well I think but without the waving through of Lewis. Also some hazy memory of a fight in Canada in 2015 or 2016 where Alonso forced Seb into a dodgy move or something but I'm unsure of the specifics.

They just don't get on, I don't see the big deal tbh, I don't want them to be all lovey dovey with each other. I don't believe they've ever crashed each other out or anything so there's clearly enough respect in that sense on track but I don't think there's any or much at all of it off track which is a bit of a shame but clashing personalities are nothing new.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:38 pm 
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How do you separate them?

Alonso's claim to fame is he drags cars to places it should not be, but when he had a good car he fluffed his lines '07.

Vettel's claim to fame is in a good car he's untouchable.

Not a fan of Hamilton but I would rather have him in my car as a team owner than Alonso any day.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:45 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

I never claimed Alonso was the more successful driver? Just that his driving itself was more impressive than anything I've seen from the likes of Hamilton or Vettel.


That is not rooted in reality, but we are all entitled to our opinions.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:48 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

It can also be when Alonso puts in a season as good as Vettel's 2011 or 2013.

Even with the Mercedes dominance none of their drivers to date has put in a season as good as that.


He already has though?


When?


The two years he mentioned obviously.

What you're looking for is dominant car years, ie poles to flag, multiple wins in a row type of year etc... Well guess what you need for those kind of years. A completely dominant car, bulletproof reliability and a team mate in your pocket.

His pockets tend to be full and he's had both good and bad cars reliability wise but alas no dominant cars as of yet, not even the quickest one over a season, and very unlikely to have one so there's zero chance of those kind of years but next to Webber in a Red Bull and he'd have a good chance imo.

Next to Nico in a Merc, probably not as the situation was different because of how dominant it was it allowed Nico to always be the one right behind and they weren't allowed to split strategy so often it just came down to qualy where Nico was at his strongest or the start which is arguably the only meh weapon in Lewis's arsenal, so it was pretty unique circumstances all in all.

2017 for Seb and what's looking like 2018 for Lewis anyway (But could switch as it's still very early) are examples of 2006 and 2012 type years where you could be in the running if you're consistent enough. You can add the Bull drivers too for this year in a 2012 context (regular half a second deficit to pole sitting Vettel but less deficit in the race).

We'll see how they get on but so far only Dan seems consistent enough but it's way too early to call.


I think a lot of rewriting of history is going on with '12 I guess the renault alternators failing Vettel has nothing to do with Alonso getting close.
Maybe a rewatch of that season is needed, a race like Valencia is a perfect example where Vettel was leading comfortably and the alternator gave up turning what would have been a 32pt lead to a 7pt lead.


History won't be re-written, it's all there on film. Alonso had his own issues in Spa and Monza which cost him points too. Not to mention being in a far slower car in the opening rounds and a slower car for the majority of the rest does cost you points as well you know. Of course Seb with a faster car is going to be ahead unless he messes up or gets unlucky, that's not shocking.

It's what Alonso did regardless of what Seb or anyone else did that was impressive. He took care of his own races and was maximising the vast majority of his weekends. 4 wet races/qualifying where car performance becomes more even than usual and he took 86pts out of a possible 100 from those weekends. Add that to always being in the position to snatch a podium or take advantage like Valencia and doing it against 4 WDC's in equal or faster cars is what the appreciation of that season is based on.

Maybe a re-watch yourself is needed.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:57 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:

History won't be re-written, it's all there on film. Alonso had his own issues in Spa and Monza which cost him points too. Not to mention being in a far slower car in the opening rounds and a slower car for the majority of the rest does cost you points as well you know. Of course Seb with a faster car is going to be ahead unless he messes up or gets unlucky, that's not shocking.

It's what Alonso did regardless of what Seb or anyone else did that was impressive. He took care of his own races and was maximising the vast majority of his weekends. 4 wet races/qualifying where car performance becomes more even than usual and he took 86pts out of a possible 100 from those weekends. Add that to always being in the position to snatch a podium or take advantage like Valencia and doing it against 4 WDC's in equal or faster cars is what the appreciation of that season is based on.

Maybe a re-watch yourself is needed.


In the opening rounds even the sauber beat the redbulls in the same season Maldonaldo won a race and Alonso finished second.

The redbull got better in the second half and had the alternator prob up till monza.

That just tells you the Ferrari was the better car in the wet just the same as Perez in the sauber performing better in the wet.

Just the same way Vettel maximised his opportunities in '15.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:58 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
robins13 wrote:

It's not nice to see how little credit that Vettel gets from the likes of Alonso, you threw away the Ferrari seat Alonso.


Looks to me like Alonso is looking up while Vettel is looking down at the ground.

As for the Ferrari seat - it's 2018 now. Alonso's contract expired in 2016.

Vettel gives just as little credit to Alonso. It's a two way street.


Last edited by davidheath461 on Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:02 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

History won't be re-written, it's all there on film. Alonso had his own issues in Spa and Monza which cost him points too. Not to mention being in a far slower car in the opening rounds and a slower car for the majority of the rest does cost you points as well you know. Of course Seb with a faster car is going to be ahead unless he messes up or gets unlucky, that's not shocking.

It's what Alonso did regardless of what Seb or anyone else did that was impressive. He took care of his own races and was maximising the vast majority of his weekends. 4 wet races/qualifying where car performance becomes more even than usual and he took 86pts out of a possible 100 from those weekends. Add that to always being in the position to snatch a podium or take advantage like Valencia and doing it against 4 WDC's in equal or faster cars is what the appreciation of that season is based on.

Maybe a re-watch yourself is needed.


In the opening rounds even the sauber beat the redbulls in the same season Maldonaldo won a race and Alonso finished second.

The redbull got better in the second half and had the alternator prob up till monza.

That just tells you the Ferrari was the better car in the wet just the same as Perez in the sauber performing better in the wet.

Just the same way Vettel maximised his opportunities in '15.


I agree that relative to the rest of the field, the 2012 Ferrari was better in the wet than the dry.

If you re-watch Silverstone and Hockenheim qualifying, you will probably find that Red Bull was at least equal or better to Ferrari in the wet.

Red Bull was faster than Ferrari at about 90% of the races during the season.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:04 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
How do you separate them?

Alonso's claim to fame is he drags cars to places it should not be, but when he had a good car he fluffed his lines '07.

Vettel's claim to fame is in a good car he's untouchable, but he fluffed his lines in '09 and '17.

Not a fan of Hamilton but I would rather have him in my car as a team owner than Alonso any day.


corrected it for you ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:20 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

History won't be re-written, it's all there on film. Alonso had his own issues in Spa and Monza which cost him points too. Not to mention being in a far slower car in the opening rounds and a slower car for the majority of the rest does cost you points as well you know. Of course Seb with a faster car is going to be ahead unless he messes up or gets unlucky, that's not shocking.

It's what Alonso did regardless of what Seb or anyone else did that was impressive. He took care of his own races and was maximising the vast majority of his weekends. 4 wet races/qualifying where car performance becomes more even than usual and he took 86pts out of a possible 100 from those weekends. Add that to always being in the position to snatch a podium or take advantage like Valencia and doing it against 4 WDC's in equal or faster cars is what the appreciation of that season is based on.

Maybe a re-watch yourself is needed.


In the opening rounds even the sauber beat the redbulls in the same season Maldonaldo won a race and Alonso finished second.

The redbull got better in the second half and had the alternator prob up till monza.

That just tells you the Ferrari was the better car in the wet just the same as Perez in the sauber performing better in the wet.

Just the same way Vettel maximised his opportunities in '15.


Webber was doing fine in the Red Bull in the first part of the season. Pre Spain the Ferrari was over a second slower and it took until Spain for it to outqualify a Mercedes. Never mind a McLaren,Red Bull or Lotus, it was fighting with Sauber,Williams and Mercedes before then. Malaysia was just a mad race like Baku last year that Perez in the quicker Sauber should've won but spun when closing in on Alonso.

After Ferrari fixed their coanda in Spain it was much much better and jumped those other teams I mentioned for the most part, but it didn't leapfrog the RB or McLaren or even the Lotus imo. Those two seemed to take turns in who was 3rd quickest for the most part. Monza and possibly Spa were the most competitive tracks for Ferrari, they looked outright fastest in Monza, but typically that's when he got unlucky.

The Ferrari was better in the wet than the dry yeah but I see no obvious reason why it would suddenly be quicker than a Red Bull in those conditions. What did it have over it? Maybe suspension/mechanical grip? I genuinely don't know. I thought it did in 2010 fwiw but I've no reason to think it did in 2012 looking at the season as a whole.

Seb in 2015 was very very good imo, I see what people like in 2011 and 2013 but I think 2015 might be his best but I do tend to change my mind a bit on things like that. But no I don't think it was as good as 2012 mainly due the amount of competition faced but some other things as well.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:21 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

History won't be re-written, it's all there on film. Alonso had his own issues in Spa and Monza which cost him points too. Not to mention being in a far slower car in the opening rounds and a slower car for the majority of the rest does cost you points as well you know. Of course Seb with a faster car is going to be ahead unless he messes up or gets unlucky, that's not shocking.

It's what Alonso did regardless of what Seb or anyone else did that was impressive. He took care of his own races and was maximising the vast majority of his weekends. 4 wet races/qualifying where car performance becomes more even than usual and he took 86pts out of a possible 100 from those weekends. Add that to always being in the position to snatch a podium or take advantage like Valencia and doing it against 4 WDC's in equal or faster cars is what the appreciation of that season is based on.

Maybe a re-watch yourself is needed.


In the opening rounds even the sauber beat the redbulls in the same season Maldonaldo won a race and Alonso finished second.

The redbull got better in the second half and had the alternator prob up till monza.

That just tells you the Ferrari was the better car in the wet just the same as Perez in the sauber performing better in the wet.

Just the same way Vettel maximised his opportunities in '15.


I agree that relative to the rest of the field, the 2012 Ferrari was better in the wet than the dry.

If you re-watch Silverstone and Hockenheim qualifying, you will probably find that Red Bull was at least equal or better to Ferrari in the wet.

Red Bull was faster than Ferrari at about 90% of the races during the season.


Why not 100%?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:23 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

History won't be re-written, it's all there on film. Alonso had his own issues in Spa and Monza which cost him points too. Not to mention being in a far slower car in the opening rounds and a slower car for the majority of the rest does cost you points as well you know. Of course Seb with a faster car is going to be ahead unless he messes up or gets unlucky, that's not shocking.

It's what Alonso did regardless of what Seb or anyone else did that was impressive. He took care of his own races and was maximising the vast majority of his weekends. 4 wet races/qualifying where car performance becomes more even than usual and he took 86pts out of a possible 100 from those weekends. Add that to always being in the position to snatch a podium or take advantage like Valencia and doing it against 4 WDC's in equal or faster cars is what the appreciation of that season is based on.

Maybe a re-watch yourself is needed.


In the opening rounds even the sauber beat the redbulls in the same season Maldonaldo won a race and Alonso finished second.

The redbull got better in the second half and had the alternator prob up till monza.

That just tells you the Ferrari was the better car in the wet just the same as Perez in the sauber performing better in the wet.

Just the same way Vettel maximised his opportunities in '15.


I agree that relative to the rest of the field, the 2012 Ferrari was better in the wet than the dry.

If you re-watch Silverstone and Hockenheim qualifying, you will probably find that Red Bull was at least equal or better to Ferrari in the wet.

Red Bull was faster than Ferrari at about 90% of the races during the season.


Why not 100%?


Monza I'll guess. Ferrari genuinely looked quickest.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:26 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

History won't be re-written, it's all there on film. Alonso had his own issues in Spa and Monza which cost him points too. Not to mention being in a far slower car in the opening rounds and a slower car for the majority of the rest does cost you points as well you know. Of course Seb with a faster car is going to be ahead unless he messes up or gets unlucky, that's not shocking.

It's what Alonso did regardless of what Seb or anyone else did that was impressive. He took care of his own races and was maximising the vast majority of his weekends. 4 wet races/qualifying where car performance becomes more even than usual and he took 86pts out of a possible 100 from those weekends. Add that to always being in the position to snatch a podium or take advantage like Valencia and doing it against 4 WDC's in equal or faster cars is what the appreciation of that season is based on.

Maybe a re-watch yourself is needed.


In the opening rounds even the sauber beat the redbulls in the same season Maldonaldo won a race and Alonso finished second.

The redbull got better in the second half and had the alternator prob up till monza.

That just tells you the Ferrari was the better car in the wet just the same as Perez in the sauber performing better in the wet.

Just the same way Vettel maximised his opportunities in '15.


I agree that relative to the rest of the field, the 2012 Ferrari was better in the wet than the dry.

If you re-watch Silverstone and Hockenheim qualifying, you will probably find that Red Bull was at least equal or better to Ferrari in the wet.

Red Bull was faster than Ferrari at about 90% of the races during the season.


Why not 100%?


Monza I'll guess. Ferrari genuinely looked quickest.


Lol not in Malaysia or Catalunya or Silverstone? Even Pat Fry had to tell Alonso to qualify the car higher up the Ferrari had race pace but could not get single lap pace.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:41 pm 
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In Malaysia it qualified Midfield and was being realed in at speed by Perez in a Sauber.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:45 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

In the opening rounds even the sauber beat the redbulls in the same season Maldonaldo won a race and Alonso finished second.

The redbull got better in the second half and had the alternator prob up till monza.

That just tells you the Ferrari was the better car in the wet just the same as Perez in the sauber performing better in the wet.

Just the same way Vettel maximised his opportunities in '15.


I agree that relative to the rest of the field, the 2012 Ferrari was better in the wet than the dry.

If you re-watch Silverstone and Hockenheim qualifying, you will probably find that Red Bull was at least equal or better to Ferrari in the wet.

Red Bull was faster than Ferrari at about 90% of the races during the season.


Why not 100%?


Monza I'll guess. Ferrari genuinely looked quickest.


Lol not in Malaysia or Catalunya or Silverstone? Even Pat Fry had to tell Alonso to qualify the car higher up the Ferrari had race pace but could not get single lap pace.


Are you serious about Malaysia? Over a second behind Mark in qualifying and you're asking about that one? It was a mad race that his pit crew or himself didn't mess up while everyone else did or got unlucky. He didn't win on pace, he survived despite having a coanda problem that left the rears too cold and struggling for grip until Spain. Pretty sure Alonso described it as his scariest race or something along those lines, the car was a dog before Spain.

Spain. I don't know, possibly yeah. Seb not wanting to run in Q3 leaves it up in the air a bit. Q2 they were bang equal. They both got held up in traffic a lot in the race so I wouldn't be confident either way but I can at least see the argument.

Silverstone. Like Spain close but this one not for me. I like Mark but they were dead even in Q and Mark was quicker in the race so i'd lean towards Red Bull. Seb was only 4s back in 3rd during the race as well but with Massa being only 5s behind Seb himself I can see if someone had them similar so maybe even at a push but Ferrari faster I'm not seeing it like it was in Monza or even Spain.

Not mentioned but Spa I'd listen to an argument about as well fwiw.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:49 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:

Are you serious about Malaysia? Over a second behind Mark in qualifying and you're asking about that one? It was a mad race that his pit crew or himself didn't mess up while everyone else did or got unlucky. He didn't win on pace, he survived despite having a coanda problem that left the rears too cold and struggling for grip until Spain. Pretty sure Alonso described it as his scariest race or something along those lines, the car was a dog before Spain.

Spain. I don't know, possibly yeah. Seb not wanting to run in Q3 leaves it up in the air a bit. Q2 they were bang equal. They both got held up in traffic a lot in the race so I wouldn't be confident either way but I can at least see the argument.

Silverstone. Like Spain close but this one not for me. I like Mark but they were dead even in Q and Mark was quicker in the race so i'd lean towards Red Bull. Seb was only 4s back in 3rd during the race as well but with Massa being only 5s behind Seb himself I can see if someone had them similar so maybe even at a push but Ferrari faster I'm not seeing it like it was in Monza or even Spain.

Not mentioned but Spa I'd listen to an argument about as well fwiw.


Like I said qualy pace diff from race pace, use the race pace and in that era you can overtake.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:08 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

History won't be re-written, it's all there on film. Alonso had his own issues in Spa and Monza which cost him points too. Not to mention being in a far slower car in the opening rounds and a slower car for the majority of the rest does cost you points as well you know. Of course Seb with a faster car is going to be ahead unless he messes up or gets unlucky, that's not shocking.

It's what Alonso did regardless of what Seb or anyone else did that was impressive. He took care of his own races and was maximising the vast majority of his weekends. 4 wet races/qualifying where car performance becomes more even than usual and he took 86pts out of a possible 100 from those weekends. Add that to always being in the position to snatch a podium or take advantage like Valencia and doing it against 4 WDC's in equal or faster cars is what the appreciation of that season is based on.

Maybe a re-watch yourself is needed.


In the opening rounds even the sauber beat the redbulls in the same season Maldonaldo won a race and Alonso finished second.

The redbull got better in the second half and had the alternator prob up till monza.

That just tells you the Ferrari was the better car in the wet just the same as Perez in the sauber performing better in the wet.

Just the same way Vettel maximised his opportunities in '15.


I agree that relative to the rest of the field, the 2012 Ferrari was better in the wet than the dry.

If you re-watch Silverstone and Hockenheim qualifying, you will probably find that Red Bull was at least equal or better to Ferrari in the wet.

Red Bull was faster than Ferrari at about 90% of the races during the season.


Why not 100%?


Monza I'll guess. Ferrari genuinely looked quickest.


Yep Monza and Barcelona. Montreal and Spa were fairly close i guess too.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:29 pm 
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They looked evenly matched around Silverstone and Hockenheim too


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:32 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
They looked evenly matched around Silverstone and Hockenheim too


No, Red Bull were faster.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:34 pm 
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No, they were evenly matched in those races. I remember them very clearly.

Alonso was also the luckiest driver in the world in the second half of 2012. He drove probably the best season ever in the first half, but in the second half results kept being gifted to him.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:43 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

Are you serious about Malaysia? Over a second behind Mark in qualifying and you're asking about that one? It was a mad race that his pit crew or himself didn't mess up while everyone else did or got unlucky. He didn't win on pace, he survived despite having a coanda problem that left the rears too cold and struggling for grip until Spain. Pretty sure Alonso described it as his scariest race or something along those lines, the car was a dog before Spain.

Spain. I don't know, possibly yeah. Seb not wanting to run in Q3 leaves it up in the air a bit. Q2 they were bang equal. They both got held up in traffic a lot in the race so I wouldn't be confident either way but I can at least see the argument.

Silverstone. Like Spain close but this one not for me. I like Mark but they were dead even in Q and Mark was quicker in the race so i'd lean towards Red Bull. Seb was only 4s back in 3rd during the race as well but with Massa being only 5s behind Seb himself I can see if someone had them similar so maybe even at a push but Ferrari faster I'm not seeing it like it was in Monza or even Spain.

Not mentioned but Spa I'd listen to an argument about as well fwiw.


Like I said qualy pace diff from race pace, use the race pace and in that era you can overtake.


Already mentioned they were closer in race pace, a bit like the Bulls are currently. Closer. Not suddenly faster than everyone and overturning a second difference (Malaysia).

Lotus had the exact same strength and weakness and it's not like anyone were suffering in the races like Mercedes 2013.

Overtaking was easier than today yeah but we still had dirty air. Alonso made his moves at the start and through strategy usually.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:37 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
No, they were evenly matched in those races. I remember them very clearly.


Then i doubt your memory is very good.

Webber should have got pole in Silverstone but messed up his final lap. Vettel/Webber were faster Alonso/Massa during the race.

Vettel should have got pole at Hockenheim but didn't pull it together in his final run. Webber had a grid penalty. During the race, Vettel made a poor start but then caught up Alonso but was not able to overtake.

Quote:
Alonso was also the luckiest driver in the world in the second half of 2012. He drove probably the best season ever in the first half, but in the second half results kept being gifted to him.


I think he got a bit of luck in the last 2 races. Apart from that, i don't see it. If anything, he was a bit unlucky in Spa and Monza.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:57 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
No, they were evenly matched in those races. I remember them very clearly.

Alonso was also the luckiest driver in the world in the second half of 2012. He drove probably the best season ever in the first half, but in the second half results kept being gifted to him.


He wasn't even the luckiest driver in the title fight in the second half. Seb himself had plenty of luck in that run in too.

Spa and RoGro's favour.
Alonso's reliability problem on Ferrari's strongest track. (Monza)
Incident with Kimi in Suzuka being overly harshly punished with a DNF for Alonso when looking at some other 50-50's
Ferrari upgrades blocked from getting to India.
Lewis retirements, just one and he's not champ.
AD race where he could've taken himself out of the race behind the SC.
Multiple car crash moved tricky cars to pass from his path in AD.
Massa spun as he came up behind him (No chance he gets passed if Massa doesn't spin*) in AD.
Caused a three car pile up in Brazil that retired two of them but not his car.
Weather in Brazil kept his damaged cars temperature under control.
Kimi randomly getting lost in Brazil.
Dan,Jev and Schumi moving over for him. That's 4 tricky cars to pass in those conditions he didn't need to.

That's just off the top of my head and most from the last two races where Alonso also got doses of luck as mentioned. I think Alonso was luckier in the first half with Seb's reliability issues and his Malaysia and Valencia weekends so overall he may have been luckier as he certainly got some luck in the run in with Seb getting sent to the back in AD and a few things in Brazil going his way especially, I don't know tbf, but the second half he didn't have more good fortune than Seb I don't believe over all, especially taking their respective machinery into account each weekend which decides how lucky you are equipment wise and how much luck you need in a weekend depending on how far back your car is on pace.

*Only place Seb was passing cars was the chicane between the straights and there's just no way he risks going in alongside Massa who wouldn't be anywhere near as kind as Button was. And the car lacked the grunt against the Ferrari even with setting it up for more straightline speed so he can't pass before a braking zone. He'd have been toast if he tried anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:47 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
No, they were evenly matched in those races. I remember them very clearly.

Alonso was also the luckiest driver in the world in the second half of 2012. He drove probably the best season ever in the first half, but in the second half results kept being gifted to him.


He wasn't even the luckiest driver in the title fight in the second half. Seb himself had plenty of luck in that run in too.

Spa and RoGro's favour.
Alonso's reliability problem on Ferrari's strongest track. (Monza)
Incident with Kimi in Suzuka being overly harshly punished with a DNF for Alonso when looking at some other 50-50's
Ferrari upgrades blocked from getting to India.
Lewis retirements, just one and he's not champ.
AD race where he could've taken himself out of the race behind the SC.
Multiple car crash moved tricky cars to pass from his path in AD.
Massa spun as he came up behind him (No chance he gets passed if Massa doesn't spin*) in AD.
Caused a three car pile up in Brazil that retired two of them but not his car.
Weather in Brazil kept his damaged cars temperature under control.
Kimi randomly getting lost in Brazil.
Dan,Jev and Schumi moving over for him. That's 4 tricky cars to pass in those conditions he didn't need to.

That's just off the top of my head and most from the last two races where Alonso also got doses of luck as mentioned. I think Alonso was luckier in the first half with Seb's reliability issues and his Malaysia and Valencia weekends so overall he may have been luckier as he certainly got some luck in the run in with Seb getting sent to the back in AD and a few things in Brazil going his way especially, I don't know tbf, but the second half he didn't have more good fortune than Seb I don't believe over all, especially taking their respective machinery into account each weekend which decides how lucky you are equipment wise and how much luck you need in a weekend depending on how far back your car is on pace.

*Only place Seb was passing cars was the chicane between the straights and there's just no way he risks going in alongside Massa who wouldn't be anywhere near as kind as Button was. And the car lacked the grunt against the Ferrari even with setting it up for more straightline speed so he can't pass before a braking zone. He'd have been toast if he tried anything.


How one can watch Abudhabi '12 and say Seb was lucky is beyond me.

I'm sure Redbull pump failure causing him to be underfueled for qualy and having to start from the pitlane is luck in a title fight.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:31 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
No, they were evenly matched in those races. I remember them very clearly.

Alonso was also the luckiest driver in the world in the second half of 2012. He drove probably the best season ever in the first half, but in the second half results kept being gifted to him.


He wasn't even the luckiest driver in the title fight in the second half. Seb himself had plenty of luck in that run in too.

Spa and RoGro's favour.
Alonso's reliability problem on Ferrari's strongest track. (Monza)
Incident with Kimi in Suzuka being overly harshly punished with a DNF for Alonso when looking at some other 50-50's
Ferrari upgrades blocked from getting to India.
Lewis retirements, just one and he's not champ.
AD race where he could've taken himself out of the race behind the SC.
Multiple car crash moved tricky cars to pass from his path in AD.
Massa spun as he came up behind him (No chance he gets passed if Massa doesn't spin*) in AD.
Caused a three car pile up in Brazil that retired two of them but not his car.
Weather in Brazil kept his damaged cars temperature under control.
Kimi randomly getting lost in Brazil.
Dan,Jev and Schumi moving over for him. That's 4 tricky cars to pass in those conditions he didn't need to.

That's just off the top of my head and most from the last two races where Alonso also got doses of luck as mentioned. I think Alonso was luckier in the first half with Seb's reliability issues and his Malaysia and Valencia weekends so overall he may have been luckier as he certainly got some luck in the run in with Seb getting sent to the back in AD and a few things in Brazil going his way especially, I don't know tbf, but the second half he didn't have more good fortune than Seb I don't believe over all, especially taking their respective machinery into account each weekend which decides how lucky you are equipment wise and how much luck you need in a weekend depending on how far back your car is on pace.

*Only place Seb was passing cars was the chicane between the straights and there's just no way he risks going in alongside Massa who wouldn't be anywhere near as kind as Button was. And the car lacked the grunt against the Ferrari even with setting it up for more straightline speed so he can't pass before a braking zone. He'd have been toast if he tried anything.


How one can watch Abudhabi '12 and say Seb was lucky is beyond me.

I'm sure Redbull pump failure causing him to be underfueled for qualy and having to start from the pitlane is luck in a title fight.


I did mention that bad luck and he was absolutely unlucky on Saturday but I'm saying he had good fortune in the race on Sunday because he could've left with 0pts worst case scenario and he left with 15pts.

He was very unlucky to be sent to the back of the grid of course, but that doesn't make the good fortune the next day of getting away with his hiccup under the SC, 3 cars getting out of his way for free and Massa getting involved with the wrong Red Bull in front of him and opening the door to the podium any less real I don't think.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:28 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

When Vettel puts in a season as good as Alonso's 2012 or 2006 efforts then we will talk. As of now I consider Alonso to still be the best all round driver in F1, and I don't even think it's all that close.


Exediron wrote:
First off, and just to clarify, 'I do think it's true' was actually meant to say that I do think Alonso believes Vettel is inferior to him.

However, since you went ahead and posted all of that, I disagree with most of it. I don't think it's nonsense at all to consider Alonso superior to Vettel, and there are multiple reasons why one might think he is, including just about everything except for career success. To name a few:

1) Alonso has never been soundly defeated by a teammate like Vettel was by Ricciardo. Say what excuse you want about his motivation, that was a pure 100% beating.
2) Vettel is now headed for a second season where he can barely out-qualify Raikkonen. Alonso only had one year, but it wasn't anywhere near close.
3) Vettel has a well-documented (if infrequent) problem with losing his head during races, resulting in a 'red mist' effect. This has cost him race wins.
4) Vettel's spacial awareness at the start is questionable, with far more first corner incidents than the other top drivers.

You also decided to perpetuate that complete urban legend that Alonso is a mediocre qualifier, which I find particularly annoying. It is built entirely on his years at Ferrari when the car was very rarely capable of pole, and it is in no way backed up by statistics. Alonso's overall qualifying record against his teammates is every bit as good as Vettel's, he matched Hamilton in qualifying when they were teammates, and he never had any problems qualifying against Raikkonen - something Vettel seems to struggle with every other season. There is absolutely no basis to say Alonso is anything but a top qualifier.

Frankly, to say that Vettel would enjoy starting 'well ahead' of Alonso if they were teammates is the only total nonsense being bandied about here.



I agree with these two. Alonso has let his heart rule his head too much, but that's pretty much his only weakness to Vettel. I appreciate Vettel's speed and talent, but I don't think anyone could quibble if they were the other way round in the record books.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:34 am 
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Rockie wrote:
How one can watch Abudhabi '12 and say Seb was lucky is beyond me.

I'm sure Redbull pump failure causing him to be underfueled for qualy and having to start from the pitlane is luck in a title fight.


How anyone can use Abu Dhabi 12 as a testament to Vettel is beyond me. It was a horribly scrappy race, he was able to use the better race tyre from the pit lane, benefited largely from two safety cars, and smashed in to one (or was it two?) brake marker board(s).

In the interest of balance, he has had several better drives and finished lower.

You can slice it two ways, either look at the result and deduct from that, or watch what happened and get the facts behind the result. I find in debates like these, all Vettel's fans have to fall back on usually is the result (unless it happened in that void between Abu Dhabi 13 and Australia 15), I don't feel the same applies to Alonso.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:29 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

A very small data set. Alonso has been in F1 for 16 seasons.


Indeed.
For a comparison purpose though it's surely better to use 1 year as direct competitors within a team, over 15 with different equipment?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:14 pm 
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Gav25182 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
How one can watch Abudhabi '12 and say Seb was lucky is beyond me.

I'm sure Redbull pump failure causing him to be underfueled for qualy and having to start from the pitlane is luck in a title fight.


How anyone can use Abu Dhabi 12 as a testament to Vettel is beyond me. It was a horribly scrappy race, he was able to use the better race tyre from the pit lane, benefited largely from two safety cars, and smashed in to one (or was it two?) brake marker board(s).

In the interest of balance, he has had several better drives and finished lower.

You can slice it two ways, either look at the result and deduct from that, or watch what happened and get the facts behind the result. I find in debates like these, all Vettel's fans have to fall back on usually is the result (unless it happened in that void between Abu Dhabi 13 and Australia 15), I don't feel the same applies to Alonso.


Probably understanding the post will be better.

He started from the pit lane and ended on the podium, only scrape he had in d race was damaging his wing behind the safety car and giving a place back to Grosjean, if I missed any one you can correct me.

I suppose you intentionally skipped Brazil of the same year.

What people are giving credit for in Alonso is what I see as a reward for failure, how you get to the position of a championship winning car and then leave for a backmarker where a race has to be fixed for you is beyond me.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:28 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

A very small data set. Alonso has been in F1 for 16 seasons.


Indeed.
For a comparison purpose though it's surely better to use 1 year as direct competitors within a team, over 15 with different equipment?


Not if you want to draw a balanced conclusion. Is it best to judge Vettel solely by 2014 or do you get a better picture considering his 9 other seasons?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:33 am 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

It can also be when Alonso puts in a season as good as Vettel's 2011 or 2013.

Even with the Mercedes dominance none of their drivers to date has put in a season as good as that.


He already has though?


When?


The years I mentioned previously? Vettel 2011 was exceptional certainly his best year. His 2013 as an overall package I wouldn't say was his best work. He definitely managed to lock out what his car was a capable of in the second half of the season but I found the first half a bit lack lustre if we are judging it as right at the top end of brilliance.

Vettel is a great F1 driver. For me he stands on the precipice of the top 10 of all time so I'm honestly not trying to do him down. I just don't think over his career he has been as impressive as Alonso.


Over his career he has been head and shoulders above Alonso, except if viewed through rose tinted glasses.

Since '07 F1 has revolved around 2 drivers Vettel and Hamilton they were up n coming then, but now have 4 titles each when this era of F1 is written in future, Alonso is just going to be a footnote in it harsh but true.

Indeed most people will probably not realise that from 2009 onwards Vettel always had a better car than Alonso.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:37 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Indeed most people will probably not realise that from 2009 onwards Vettel always had a better car than Alonso.



Same as Hamilton which is what you need in F1.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:39 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
robins13 wrote:

It's not nice to see how little credit that Vettel gets from the likes of Alonso, you threw away the Ferrari seat Alonso.


Looks to me like Alonso is looking up while Vettel is looking down at the ground.

As for the Ferrari seat - it's 2018 now. Alonso's contract expired in 2016.

Vettel gives just as little credit to Alonso. It's a two way street.

I answered this before somewhere, Ferrari had a decent car in 2015, exactly were would Alonso have gone after 2016?

When does Vettel speak bad about Alonso, I've never heard him put Alonso's driving down?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:43 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

A very small data set. Alonso has been in F1 for 16 seasons.


Indeed.
For a comparison purpose though it's surely better to use 1 year as direct competitors within a team, over 15 with different equipment?


Not if you want to draw a balanced conclusion. Is it best to judge Vettel solely by 2014 or do you get a better picture considering his 9 other seasons?

...or you could cross reference Button using Mark Hughes' data.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:24 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

A very small data set. Alonso has been in F1 for 16 seasons.


Indeed.
For a comparison purpose though it's surely better to use 1 year as direct competitors within a team, over 15 with different equipment?


Not if you want to draw a balanced conclusion. Is it best to judge Vettel solely by 2014 or do you get a better picture considering his 9 other seasons?

...or you could cross reference Button using Mark Hughes' data.


To form part of the picture.

Bottom line -

Do I believe Alonso could have won the 2011 WDC in Vettel position? Yes I do.

Do I believe Vettel or Hamilton would have finished 2nd in the WDC in Alonso's position in 2012? No I don't.

Hell, just look at what Alonso is doing this year. He's 6th in the WDC in a car that should have him 11th/12th.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:36 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

A very small data set. Alonso has been in F1 for 16 seasons.


Indeed.
For a comparison purpose though it's surely better to use 1 year as direct competitors within a team, over 15 with different equipment?


Not if you want to draw a balanced conclusion. Is it best to judge Vettel solely by 2014 or do you get a better picture considering his 9 other seasons?

...or you could cross reference Button using Mark Hughes' data.


To form part of the picture.

Bottom line -

Do I believe Alonso could have won the 2011 WDC in Vettel position? Yes I do.

Do I believe Vettel or Hamilton would have finished 2nd in the WDC in Alonso's position in 2012? No I don't.

Hell, just look at what Alonso is doing this year. He's 6th in the WDC in a car that should have him 11th/12th.


Based on what?
You are just assuming (want to believe?) that Alonso is performing miracles.
Just as likely an answer though is that Vandoorne has been bloody useless since he came into F1?

Whenever you try to judge driver performance all you are really doing is comparing them to their team mate.
That's why when you do get a direct comparison it's always more useful.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:52 am 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Whenever you try to judge driver performance all you are really doing is comparing them to their team mate.
That's why when you do get a direct comparison it's always more useful.


I'm not comparing him to Vandoorne. Even assuming Alonso has equal speed to those around him you couldn't place the Mclaren better than equal 5th quickest with Haas. Ignore Vandoorne if you like. Although I don't see Vandoorne being useless as anything like as likely as him being competent. Alonso is making him look like Fissichella, Massa or Raikkonen. Hardly useless drivers.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:07 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
Whenever you try to judge driver performance all you are really doing is comparing them to their team mate.
That's why when you do get a direct comparison it's always more useful.


I'm not comparing him to Vandoorne. Even assuming Alonso has equal speed to those around him you couldn't place the Mclaren better than equal 5th quickest with Haas. Ignore Vandoorne if you like. Although I don't see Vandoorne being useless as anything like as likely as him being competent. Alonso is making him look like Fissichella, Massa or Raikkonen. Hardly useless drivers.


I'm confused. It seems to me that you are judging the Mclaren as a car on what Vandoorne is able to do.
As Alonso is getting better results than Vandoorne you are then using this to say Alonso is making the difference?
So essentially you are comparing him to Vandoorne?
The problem with that is we have no benchmark at all to judge Vandoorne as an F1 driver.


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