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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:31 pm 
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mds wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
You can look up other races like Korea 2011, Germany 2012, Monaco 2016 etc.


You want to prove something, you do the work and look up.


I cannot spoon feed you mds. Google is your friend. :nod:

If you don't believe me then that's your problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:31 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
I've already given you guys the example of Vettel slating his team after China 2012. You can look up other races like Korea 2011, Germany 2012, Monaco 2016 etc.

The evidence is right there in front of you and you are all choosing to ignore it. 8)
you mean the claim you completely fabricated?


Nope i provided a link and a quote.

;)

the one that was completely different to your claim?


How was it completely different? Vettel was slating his own team.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:37 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
I've already given you guys the example of Vettel slating his team after China 2012. You can look up other races like Korea 2011, Germany 2012, Monaco 2016 etc.

The evidence is right there in front of you and you are all choosing to ignore it. 8)
you mean the claim you completely fabricated?


Nope i provided a link and a quote.

;)

the one that was completely different to your claim?


How was it completely different? Vettel was slating his own team.

I can only conclude that you're on a deliberate windup. You know it's been pointed out to you that what you claimed was not true, which even your own evidence didn't support. So either you were deliberately lying, presumably just in an attempt to bait others (which your inane comments and multiple smileys support), or you are completely wrapped up in trying to pin something, anything, on Vettel that you're clutching at the weakest of straws to try and justify it to yourself. Either way you don't come out of it looking good, I'm afraid.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:39 pm 
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I claimed Vettel slated his team.

I provided link to Vettel slating his team.

I don't see what the problem is.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:49 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
I claimed Vettel slated his team.

I provided link to Vettel slating his team.

I don't see what the problem is.


Perhaps it is your definition of "slating". It appears to be quite broad and all encompassing when it comes to Vettel.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Blake wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
I claimed Vettel slated his team.

I provided link to Vettel slating his team.

I don't see what the problem is.


Perhaps it is your definition of "slating". It appears to be quite broad and all encompassing when it comes to Vettel.


Please go ahead and provide your own definition of slating, and explain why Vettel's radio message in China was not slating his car/team. 8) :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:22 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Blake wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
I claimed Vettel slated his team.

I provided link to Vettel slating his team.

I don't see what the problem is.


Perhaps it is your definition of "slating". It appears to be quite broad and all encompassing when it comes to Vettel.


Please go ahead and provide your own definition of slating, and explain why Vettel's radio message in China was not slating his car/team. 8) :thumbup:


Why should I bother? Other's have already tried to reason with you, explain it, and you ignore them and continue on with your persistent and extreme dislike for Vettel. You apparently have an issue with him and it clouds your responses.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:31 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
I cannot spoon feed you mds. Google is your friend. :nod:

If you don't believe me then that's your problem.

When did this toxic BS forum etiquette become acceptable? You're not the only one I've seen it from. If you have a point to prove, you provide the examples: you don't just toss out some names and tell other people to Google it. That's troll crap. If you aren't willing to go to the effort of actually posting your sources, you're just baiting the other side, not participating. No one is going to do your work for you just because you smugly tell them Google is their friend.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:21 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
mds wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
You can look up other races like Korea 2011, Germany 2012, Monaco 2016 etc.


You want to prove something, you do the work and look up.


I cannot spoon feed you mds. Google is your friend. :nod:

If you don't believe me then that's your problem.


If you can't substantiate something yourself you shouldn't say it. ;) ;) You can't just through something on the table and then refuse to supply any evidence. :nod: :nod:

The burden of proof is well and truly on your shoulders. :o


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:25 am 
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Regardless of whether or not Vettel has occasional outbursts on the team radio, the fact is that:

1. Vettel has never blackmailed his own teamboss

2. Vettel has never burned bridges with anyone. His divorce with Red Bull was very professional and Horner still loves him.

That’s why people say that Vettel is a better team player than Alonso.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:40 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Regardless of whether or not Vettel has occasional outbursts on the team radio, the fact is that:

1. Vettel has never blackmailed his own teamboss

2. Vettel has never burned bridges with anyone. His divorce with Red Bull was very professional and Horner still loves him.

That’s why people say that Vettel is a better team player than Alonso.

Better in one sense of being a team player, yes. A better team employee. But as a team player in terms of his conduct with his teammates, he has a spottier record. Against both Webber and Ricciardo he showed a level of unwillingness to put the other car above himself even when it was best for the team. It doesn't come up with Kimi, but I have no reason to suspect that character trait isn't still present. That's why I don't consider him a team player: it has nothing to do with his public criticism or lack thereof for his team.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:34 am 
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“a better team player” is a relative concept. I don’t think anyone can deny that Vettel has character flaws, but he’s still a better team player than Alonso.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:19 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Right so like Button in McLaren then?. Let me guess this one doesn't count either because they weren't fighting for wins. Always an excuse.

Rosberg is parroting a well trotted out line, it's like Lewis and not being cerebral, it will follow him but it doesn't mean it's true. Those same top teams aren't trying to sign Dan who is as smiley as you like so again, sounds like more excuses for keeping their comfy line up and not rocking the boat with their lead drivers.

Well exactly what was on the line at McLaren with Button?

Rosberg is quite high profile and not just some other paddock journos who are easy to dismiss, also Rosberg is often seen working in the paddock so it's not like he's looking to take cheap shots from afar.


When has Alonso needed something on the line to be competitive? There wasn't much on the line at Ferrari with Kimi but you could still tell he wanted to win. Same in the second Renault spell.

I'm aware who he is and how can you speak for Rosberg's motivation? I can dismiss it until Dan's announced and I will do.

Something on the line to be political, also he didn't like the signing of Kimi and didn't make things nice for Kimi at all, then there was the barbed messages on the radio about him being quicker than Kimi.

What has Rosberg got against Alonso pray tell, however what Rosberg has is close connections with Mercedes in particular and insider knowledge of how they may view Alonso.


Like I said, always an excuse as to why his case is different no matter what. I've given an example of a top line driver he sat next to without issue (Button) and you say there was nothing on the line. I give you an example of him being a bit of a you know what with another top line driver with nothing on the line and you say that's political. Always an excuse.

He does, he also knows Lewis who openly referred to his toxic relationship with Alonso so the possibility of Mercedes thinking Alonso joining would be toxic is pretty high if your lead driver is already referring to it like that. My point is I don't think that's why he's not there, I just don't think they are interested in an upgrade on Bottas at all.

Hence why I don't think smiley Dan who isn't toxic in any way is heading there either, so any opinions on the toxicity is moot and by now just a line to be trotted out to explain away why two teams who aren't interested in signing two roosters aren't signing him, as it sounds much better than saying we're happy with our current situation, however boring you might find it, so tough luck.

We have a crazy situation were what many perceive as the best driver in F1 is on his way out because none of the top teams want him, when has this ever happened before?

You seem to forget that Mercedes themselves had a working relationship with Alonso back in 2007 and it's been said that it's the big boss himself Dieter Zetsche that wouldn't be a big fan of him.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:31 pm 
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It's not that they don't want him Alonso. They don't want any other top driver apart from the one they already have.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:35 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
We have a crazy situation were what many perceive as the best driver in F1 is on his way out because none of the top teams want him, when has this ever happened before?

You seem to forget that Mercedes themselves had a working relationship with Alonso back in 2007 and it's been said that it's the big boss himself Dieter Zetsche that wouldn't be a big fan of him.


Hate to barge in on your conversation, but didn't Mercedes say they would go for Alonso if Lewis didn't renew his contract a couple of years ago? I mean, if Lewis was to retire after this year, does anyone not think Alonso (along with Ricc) would be a prime candidate to replace him at Merc?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:44 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
We have a crazy situation were what many perceive as the best driver in F1 is on his way out because none of the top teams want him, when has this ever happened before?

You seem to forget that Mercedes themselves had a working relationship with Alonso back in 2007 and it's been said that it's the big boss himself Dieter Zetsche that wouldn't be a big fan of him.


Hate to barge in on your conversation, but didn't Mercedes say they would go for Alonso if Lewis didn't renew his contract a couple of years ago? I mean, if Lewis was to retire after this year, does anyone not think Alonso (along with Ricc) would be a prime candidate to replace him at Merc?

https://www.racefans.net/2017/08/30/wol ... 018-drive/

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:57 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
We have a crazy situation were what many perceive as the best driver in F1 is on his way out because none of the top teams want him, when has this ever happened before?

You seem to forget that Mercedes themselves had a working relationship with Alonso back in 2007 and it's been said that it's the big boss himself Dieter Zetsche that wouldn't be a big fan of him.


Hate to barge in on your conversation, but didn't Mercedes say they would go for Alonso if Lewis didn't renew his contract a couple of years ago? I mean, if Lewis was to retire after this year, does anyone not think Alonso (along with Ricc) would be a prime candidate to replace him at Merc?

https://www.racefans.net/2017/08/30/wol ... 018-drive/


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well exactly what was on the line at McLaren with Button?

Rosberg is quite high profile and not just some other paddock journos who are easy to dismiss, also Rosberg is often seen working in the paddock so it's not like he's looking to take cheap shots from afar.


When has Alonso needed something on the line to be competitive? There wasn't much on the line at Ferrari with Kimi but you could still tell he wanted to win. Same in the second Renault spell.

I'm aware who he is and how can you speak for Rosberg's motivation? I can dismiss it until Dan's announced and I will do.

Something on the line to be political, also he didn't like the signing of Kimi and didn't make things nice for Kimi at all, then there was the barbed messages on the radio about him being quicker than Kimi.

What has Rosberg got against Alonso pray tell, however what Rosberg has is close connections with Mercedes in particular and insider knowledge of how they may view Alonso.


Like I said, always an excuse as to why his case is different no matter what. I've given an example of a top line driver he sat next to without issue (Button) and you say there was nothing on the line. I give you an example of him being a bit of a you know what with another top line driver with nothing on the line and you say that's political. Always an excuse.

He does, he also knows Lewis who openly referred to his toxic relationship with Alonso so the possibility of Mercedes thinking Alonso joining would be toxic is pretty high if your lead driver is already referring to it like that. My point is I don't think that's why he's not there, I just don't think they are interested in an upgrade on Bottas at all.

Hence why I don't think smiley Dan who isn't toxic in any way is heading there either, so any opinions on the toxicity is moot and by now just a line to be trotted out to explain away why two teams who aren't interested in signing two roosters aren't signing him, as it sounds much better than saying we're happy with our current situation, however boring you might find it, so tough luck.

We have a crazy situation were what many perceive as the best driver in F1 is on his way out because none of the top teams want him, when has this ever happened before?

You seem to forget that Mercedes themselves had a working relationship with Alonso back in 2007 and it's been said that it's the big boss himself Dieter Zetsche that wouldn't be a big fan of him.


We also have a situation where we only have 3 teams capable of being competitive. One he recently left and that already has a top line driver with no interest in putting a second one next to him, one that has a top line driver, arguably the best, and that has a bad history the last time they sat together and they show no sign of wanting to put two top line drivers next to each either. And lastly Red Bull who do put two strong drivers together but only from their own YDP.

He can't force Seb or Lewis to retire or force Mercedes,Red Bull and Ferrari to change policy can he? Zetsche is going, he's not a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:16 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
We also have a situation where we only have 3 teams capable of being competitive.

That's not different from F1 history in general. There have usually been three teams that are a tier above the rest.

What is different now compared to the past is that the talent pool is much deeper than before. Mercedes have arguably/probably the fastest driver in Hamilton, and an excellent number 2 in Bottas. Ferrari have a proven top driver in Vettel, and Leclerc in their junior ranks (who knows how high his ceiling is). Red Bull have two great drivers in Ricciardo and Verstappen.

Alonso just isn't better than Hamilton, Vettel, or Ricciardo by a big enough margin to convince the top teams to change their lineups. Also, he will turn 37 this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:39 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
We also have a situation where we only have 3 teams capable of being competitive.

That's not different from F1 history in general. There have usually been three teams that are a tier above the rest.

What is different now compared to the past is that the talent pool is much deeper than before. Mercedes have arguably/probably the fastest driver in Hamilton, and an excellent number 2 in Bottas. Ferrari have a proven top driver in Vettel, and Leclerc in their junior ranks (who knows how high his ceiling is). Red Bull have two great drivers in Ricciardo and Verstappen.

Alonso just isn't better than Hamilton, Vettel, or Ricciardo by a big enough margin to convince the top teams to change their lineups. Also, he will turn 37 this year.


Drivers have stopped moving round anything like as much as they used to and there careers last for far longer. It's very much a closed shop.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:23 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
We also have a situation where we only have 3 teams capable of being competitive.

That's not different from F1 history in general. There have usually been three teams that are a tier above the rest.

What is different now compared to the past is that the talent pool is much deeper than before. Mercedes have arguably/probably the fastest driver in Hamilton, and an excellent number 2 in Bottas. Ferrari have a proven top driver in Vettel, and Leclerc in their junior ranks (who knows how high his ceiling is). Red Bull have two great drivers in Ricciardo and Verstappen.

Alonso just isn't better than Hamilton, Vettel, or Ricciardo by a big enough margin to convince the top teams to change their lineups. Also, he will turn 37 this year.


It's not that there's usually more than 3 competitive but if you've got a well funded team with good facilities then at least the chance of being one of those at the top is enough to think maybe next year. We know those are the only 3 teams that can win until 2021 and I think that's the difference as going to Renault or staying at McLaren which is normally perfectly attractive seats, isn't good enough for where he is in his career.

Previous era we had Merc/RB/Ferrari/McLaren and Enstone capable of delivering a winning car if they got it right. Even Williams in 2012 did the same but the drivers let it down. Era before that we had several manufacturer teams offering budget and facilities wise the chance of competitiveness with BMW,Honda,Toyota,Ferrari,McLaren,Williams and Renault.

This is the difference for me, those two (Renault and McLaren) are stuck in a tier 1.5 when it comes to finances and facilities, much better than most but with no chance of troubling the top 3 without forking out for full chassis dyno's and doubling their workforce and improving facilities (Wind tunnels, dyno's etc).

Agree about not being better by enough to change, no-one is between those top 5 imo. I think the age hurts him as well yeah.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:32 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Regardless of whether or not Vettel has occasional outbursts on the team radio, the fact is that:

1. Vettel has never blackmailed his own teamboss

2. Vettel has never burned bridges with anyone. His divorce with Red Bull was very professional and Horner still loves him.

That’s why people say that Vettel is a better team player than Alonso.


Alonso has never purposely used his car as a battering ram or had an outburst on the radio like Mexico 2016 or multiple final warnings from the FIA etc.

We can play that game all day long.

Alonso returned to Renault and Mclaren - show much for burning of bridges.

Is Vettel really that much of a team player after what he did in Malaysia 2013?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:03 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
I cannot spoon feed you mds. Google is your friend. :nod:

If you don't believe me then that's your problem.

When did this toxic BS forum etiquette become acceptable? You're not the only one I've seen it from. If you have a point to prove, you provide the examples: you don't just toss out some names and tell other people to Google it. That's troll crap. If you aren't willing to go to the effort of actually posting your sources, you're just baiting the other side, not participating. No one is going to do your work for you just because you smugly tell them Google is their friend.

:thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:51 pm 
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I wish the media would not make out that Alonso is the greatest... I love this guy but to praise him that much goes beyond me. There are too many F1 drivers better. He's made some bad choices in his career. Now qualified very poorly indeed .


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:26 pm 
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Noni wrote:
I wish the media would not make out that Alonso is the greatest... I love this guy but to praise him that much goes beyond me. There are too many F1 drivers better. He's made some bad choices in his career. Now qualified very poorly indeed .

... you really think he qualified 16th because of how poorly he drove?

Yes, he has made plenty of bad choices, and he has paid for those with his career statistics being badly curbed compared to what they might have been. But it doesn't take anything from his driving ability.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:35 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
We have a crazy situation were what many perceive as the best driver in F1 is on his way out because none of the top teams want him, when has this ever happened before?

You seem to forget that Mercedes themselves had a working relationship with Alonso back in 2007 and it's been said that it's the big boss himself Dieter Zetsche that wouldn't be a big fan of him.


Hate to barge in on your conversation, but didn't Mercedes say they would go for Alonso if Lewis didn't renew his contract a couple of years ago? I mean, if Lewis was to retire after this year, does anyone not think Alonso (along with Ricc) would be a prime candidate to replace him at Merc?

https://www.racefans.net/2017/08/30/wol ... 018-drive/


"Not a consideration for us AT THIS STAGE"

Skipping past the poor history Alonso has had with Mercedes and not with Hamilton as such, as what was suggested that Rosberg's negative comment about Alonso was fed from Hamilton.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:38 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
When has Alonso needed something on the line to be competitive? There wasn't much on the line at Ferrari with Kimi but you could still tell he wanted to win. Same in the second Renault spell.

I'm aware who he is and how can you speak for Rosberg's motivation? I can dismiss it until Dan's announced and I will do.

Something on the line to be political, also he didn't like the signing of Kimi and didn't make things nice for Kimi at all, then there was the barbed messages on the radio about him being quicker than Kimi.

What has Rosberg got against Alonso pray tell, however what Rosberg has is close connections with Mercedes in particular and insider knowledge of how they may view Alonso.


Like I said, always an excuse as to why his case is different no matter what. I've given an example of a top line driver he sat next to without issue (Button) and you say there was nothing on the line. I give you an example of him being a bit of a you know what with another top line driver with nothing on the line and you say that's political. Always an excuse.

He does, he also knows Lewis who openly referred to his toxic relationship with Alonso so the possibility of Mercedes thinking Alonso joining would be toxic is pretty high if your lead driver is already referring to it like that. My point is I don't think that's why he's not there, I just don't think they are interested in an upgrade on Bottas at all.

Hence why I don't think smiley Dan who isn't toxic in any way is heading there either, so any opinions on the toxicity is moot and by now just a line to be trotted out to explain away why two teams who aren't interested in signing two roosters aren't signing him, as it sounds much better than saying we're happy with our current situation, however boring you might find it, so tough luck.

We have a crazy situation were what many perceive as the best driver in F1 is on his way out because none of the top teams want him, when has this ever happened before?

You seem to forget that Mercedes themselves had a working relationship with Alonso back in 2007 and it's been said that it's the big boss himself Dieter Zetsche that wouldn't be a big fan of him.


We also have a situation where we only have 3 teams capable of being competitive. One he recently left and that already has a top line driver with no interest in putting a second one next to him, one that has a top line driver, arguably the best, and that has a bad history the last time they sat together and they show no sign of wanting to put two top line drivers next to each either. And lastly Red Bull who do put two strong drivers together but only from their own YDP.

He can't force Seb or Lewis to retire or force Mercedes,Red Bull and Ferrari to change policy can he? Zetsche is going, he's not a problem.

Were is Zetsche going?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:04 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Something on the line to be political, also he didn't like the signing of Kimi and didn't make things nice for Kimi at all, then there was the barbed messages on the radio about him being quicker than Kimi.

What has Rosberg got against Alonso pray tell, however what Rosberg has is close connections with Mercedes in particular and insider knowledge of how they may view Alonso.


Like I said, always an excuse as to why his case is different no matter what. I've given an example of a top line driver he sat next to without issue (Button) and you say there was nothing on the line. I give you an example of him being a bit of a you know what with another top line driver with nothing on the line and you say that's political. Always an excuse.

He does, he also knows Lewis who openly referred to his toxic relationship with Alonso so the possibility of Mercedes thinking Alonso joining would be toxic is pretty high if your lead driver is already referring to it like that. My point is I don't think that's why he's not there, I just don't think they are interested in an upgrade on Bottas at all.

Hence why I don't think smiley Dan who isn't toxic in any way is heading there either, so any opinions on the toxicity is moot and by now just a line to be trotted out to explain away why two teams who aren't interested in signing two roosters aren't signing him, as it sounds much better than saying we're happy with our current situation, however boring you might find it, so tough luck.

We have a crazy situation were what many perceive as the best driver in F1 is on his way out because none of the top teams want him, when has this ever happened before?

You seem to forget that Mercedes themselves had a working relationship with Alonso back in 2007 and it's been said that it's the big boss himself Dieter Zetsche that wouldn't be a big fan of him.


We also have a situation where we only have 3 teams capable of being competitive. One he recently left and that already has a top line driver with no interest in putting a second one next to him, one that has a top line driver, arguably the best, and that has a bad history the last time they sat together and they show no sign of wanting to put two top line drivers next to each either. And lastly Red Bull who do put two strong drivers together but only from their own YDP.

He can't force Seb or Lewis to retire or force Mercedes,Red Bull and Ferrari to change policy can he? Zetsche is going, he's not a problem.

Were is Zetsche going?


Tui apparently.
https://mercedesblog.com/shock-dieter-z ... rs-as-ceo/

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:51 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Regardless of whether or not Vettel has occasional outbursts on the team radio, the fact is that:

1. Vettel has never blackmailed his own teamboss

2. Vettel has never burned bridges with anyone. His divorce with Red Bull was very professional and Horner still loves him.

That’s why people say that Vettel is a better team player than Alonso.


Alonso has never purposely used his car as a battering ram or had an outburst on the radio like Mexico 2016 or multiple final warnings from the FIA etc.

We can play that game all day long.

Alonso returned to Renault and Mclaren - show much for burning of bridges.

Is Vettel really that much of a team player after what he did in Malaysia 2013?

If the question is whether either of them can be a d*ckhead at times, then yes they are both candidates and your examples would be relevant. But since it's about being a team player then they're completely irrelevant...


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:51 am 
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Yes, Vettel showed what a great team player he was in Malaysia 2013.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:07 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Yes, Vettel showed what a great team player he was in Malaysia 2013.


All the best drivers have a certain amount of lovely individual in them. That can manifest in different ways. Vettel's can be hot headed and entitled. Hamilton as a persecution complex that could almost rival Mansell's and Alonso arrogance can be biblical.

No point in trying to make direct comparisons. They all have their own misdeeds.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:53 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Yes, Vettel showed what a great team player he was in Malaysia 2013.


What is ridiculous about this is Vettel defied what people hate the most in F1 "TEAM ORDERS".


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:23 am 
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Rockie wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Yes, Vettel showed what a great team player he was in Malaysia 2013.


What is ridiculous about this is Vettel defied what people hate the most in F1 "TEAM ORDERS".

I don't hate team orders, it's part of being in a team and has happened throughout F1 history.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:48 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Yes, Vettel showed what a great team player he was in Malaysia 2013.


What is ridiculous about this is Vettel defied what people hate the most in F1 "TEAM ORDERS".


People hate paying tax but be damned those who dodge paying it.

Nothing ridiculous about it at all. I don't like team orders in F1 but a driver is part of the team and should follow team orders when they're issued.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:04 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Yes, Vettel showed what a great team player he was in Malaysia 2013.


What is ridiculous about this is Vettel defied what people hate the most in F1 "TEAM ORDERS".


People hate paying tax but be damned those who dodge paying it.

Nothing ridiculous about it at all. I don't like team orders in F1 but a driver is part of the team and should follow team orders when they're issued.


Not a good analogy at all.

Had it been Webber doing that people would have praised it to high heavens.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:12 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Yes, Vettel showed what a great team player he was in Malaysia 2013.


What is ridiculous about this is Vettel defied what people hate the most in F1 "TEAM ORDERS".


People hate paying tax but be damned those who dodge paying it.

Nothing ridiculous about it at all. I don't like team orders in F1 but a driver is part of the team and should follow team orders when they're issued.


Not a good analogy at all.

Had it been Webber doing that people would have praised it to high heavens.


I wouldn't be so sure of that.

I can only speak for myself but I was a Webber fan and while I would've been royally pi$$ed at team orders going against him I very much would have expected him to abide by them.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:31 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Yes, Vettel showed what a great team player he was in Malaysia 2013.


What is ridiculous about this is Vettel defied what people hate the most in F1 "TEAM ORDERS".


People hate paying tax but be damned those who dodge paying it.

Nothing ridiculous about it at all. I don't like team orders in F1 but a driver is part of the team and should follow team orders when they're issued.


Not a good analogy at all.

Had it been Webber doing that people would have praised it to high heavens.


I wouldn't be so sure of that.

I can only speak for myself but I was a Webber fan and while I would've been royally pi$$ed at team orders going against him I very much would have expected him to abide by them.


We don't need to speculate on that. We know exactly what Webber would do from Silverstone. He ignored the team orders then but got all salty when fed his own medicine.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:50 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Noni wrote:
I wish the media would not make out that Alonso is the greatest... I love this guy but to praise him that much goes beyond me. There are too many F1 drivers better. He's made some bad choices in his career. Now qualified very poorly indeed .

... you really think he qualified 16th because of how poorly he drove?

Yes, he has made plenty of bad choices, and he has paid for those with his career statistics being badly curbed compared to what they might have been. But it doesn't take anything from his driving ability.


He's up there amongst the best, but not the greatest.. Wish he'd done better IMO


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:02 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

What is ridiculous about this is Vettel defied what people hate the most in F1 "TEAM ORDERS".


People hate paying tax but be damned those who dodge paying it.

Nothing ridiculous about it at all. I don't like team orders in F1 but a driver is part of the team and should follow team orders when they're issued.


Not a good analogy at all.

Had it been Webber doing that people would have praised it to high heavens.


I wouldn't be so sure of that.

I can only speak for myself but I was a Webber fan and while I would've been royally pi$$ed at team orders going against him I very much would have expected him to abide by them.


We don't need to speculate on that. We know exactly what Webber would do from Silverstone. He ignored the team orders then but got all salty when fed his own medicine.


You mean his failed attempt to defy team orders at Silverstone 2011?

If I recall correctly, this was the first time RB had used team orders, and it came just 7 months after this statement by Deitrich Mateschitz in regard to team orders used by Ferrari at Hockenheim in 2010.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/red-bull-owner-against-team-orders-2129448.html

That is in contrast to Ferrari's manipulation of the team orders rule for which they were found guilty after Felipe Massa allowed through Alonso to claim victory in the German Grand Prix in July.

Mateschitz is adamant his team will not sink to such depths as he said: "Let the two drivers race and whatever will be will be. If Alonso wins we will have been unlucky."


"We don't manipulate things like Ferrari do. The whole world condemned them after what they did in Hockenheim.

"But we have never even thought about it as long as both our drivers remain in the hunt for the championship.

"So a second place under correct circumstances might be better than a win on grounds of orders and confirmations."


These words were echoed by both Marko & Horner at the time of the Ferrari team orders.

I'd so keeping that in mind and what happened in Abu Dhabi in 2010 i'd be a tad miffed if after all that team orders were thrown in my lap at a race that was earlier in the season in 2011 than Germany was in 2010.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:57 pm 
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I don't really see how all this is relevant? He was told to maintain position and he ignored that order.

Just like Vettel did in Malaysia just 18 months later.

I'm not saying I necessarily blame Webber for it or think he did much wrong. I'm just saying it happened so we don't have speculate about Webber's reaction to team orders.


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