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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:50 am 
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https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13569 ... -2019-deal

I wonder what this means (if anything) for Toro Rosso. Would Red Bull want Honda engines in both teams?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:53 am 
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I’m guessing they would. More data and all that


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:57 am 
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They've done it before with Renault, so I don't see why not.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:04 pm 
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Honda is much more reliable & is as powerful as Renault, if not more. If Red Bull go ahead with the Honda deal, they would unofficially be the factory team so as to speak. Red Bull's patience with Renualt has also run thin with both the cars suffering engine issues in the earlier races this season.

What I'm a little worried about is that does the Red Bull have a similar tight engine packing like McLaren? Red Bull is the only (Renault) team to have suffered engine issues. If there's is a tight engine packing space like McLaren, they may face similar headaches like the ones McLaren faced in the previous 3 years.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:07 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Honda is much more reliable & is as powerful as Renault, if not more. If Red Bull go ahead with the Honda deal, they would unofficially be the factory team so as to speak. Red Bull's patience with Renualt has also run thin with both the cars suffering engine issues in the earlier races this season.

What I'm a little worried about is that does the Red Bull have a similar tight engine packing like McLaren? Red Bull is the only (Renault) team to have suffered engine issues. If there's is a tight engine packing space like McLaren, they may face similar headaches like the ones McLaren faced in the previous 3 years.

Haven't TR also suffered engine issues this year?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:36 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Honda is much more reliable & is as powerful as Renault, if not more. If Red Bull go ahead with the Honda deal, they would unofficially be the factory team so as to speak. Red Bull's patience with Renualt has also run thin with both the cars suffering engine issues in the earlier races this season.

What I'm a little worried about is that does the Red Bull have a similar tight engine packing like McLaren? Red Bull is the only (Renault) team to have suffered engine issues. If there's is a tight engine packing space like McLaren, they may face similar headaches like the ones McLaren faced in the previous 3 years.


That was my first though as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:41 pm 
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Red Bull are making a wise decision after making a very rash and foolish one back in 2015. They severed their own works status back then through impatience and entitlement and I think that they have learned since then that winning without a works deal will be all but impossible in this era (and probably the next). I think this move makes a lot of sense and I think Honda are going to come good. To my eyes, they are already at least on par with Renault. I have not seen anything to suggest otherwise. If they're smart, they will wait until the new regs for 2021 are announced and immediately shift the majority of their focus towards that engine and that car.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:42 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Honda is much more reliable & is as powerful as Renault, if not more. If Red Bull go ahead with the Honda deal, they would unofficially be the factory team so as to speak. Red Bull's patience with Renualt has also run thin with both the cars suffering engine issues in the earlier races this season.

What I'm a little worried about is that does the Red Bull have a similar tight engine packing like McLaren? Red Bull is the only (Renault) team to have suffered engine issues. If there's is a tight engine packing space like McLaren, they may face similar headaches like the ones McLaren faced in the previous 3 years.

Haven't TR also suffered engine issues this year?


Hartley did have but when compared to last 3 years, this year is such a smooth sailing for Honda.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:44 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Zoue wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Honda is much more reliable & is as powerful as Renault, if not more. If Red Bull go ahead with the Honda deal, they would unofficially be the factory team so as to speak. Red Bull's patience with Renualt has also run thin with both the cars suffering engine issues in the earlier races this season.

What I'm a little worried about is that does the Red Bull have a similar tight engine packing like McLaren? Red Bull is the only (Renault) team to have suffered engine issues. If there's is a tight engine packing space like McLaren, they may face similar headaches like the ones McLaren faced in the previous 3 years.

Haven't TR also suffered engine issues this year?


Hartley did have but when compared to last 3 years, this year is such a smooth sailing for Honda.

no argument there. But in the previous post you mentioned Red Bull's patience running thin with both cars suffering engine issues (although IIRC the engine itself was ruled out as the cause), so it seems like jumping from the frying pan into the fire when TR had them, too.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:00 pm 
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The way Red Bull threw Renault under the bus even when winning titles, I fear for Honda partnering with Red Bull. It will be Mclaren all over again. 2019 would definitely be a year too early IMO.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:52 pm 
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Aren't Honda the only option? Merc and Ferrari are a no-go and they basically decided a year ago that they were done with Renault... What other options are there?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:54 pm 
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Would love to see Honda return to F1 as a significant engine supplier. I enjoyed Honda's glory days with both Williams and McLaren teams. :D

Actually I was not that much aware of F1 at the time but have since found Hondas 1960s successes with Ritchie Ginther and John Surtees to be inspiring. :nod:

Am not so much interested in seeing Fernando Alonso being proved wrong though. OTOH having a Red Bull team with enough power to go toe to toe with Merc and Ferrari would be nice. :thumbup:

Could be fun seeing Sebastian wishing he was back at RBR. :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:59 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Would love to see Honda return to F1 as a significant engine supplier. I enjoyed Honda's glory days with both Williams and McLaren teams. :D

Actually I was not that much aware of F1 at the time but have since found Hondas 1960s successes with Ritchie Ginther and John Surtees to be inspiring. :nod:

Am not so much interested in seeing Fernando Alonso being proved wrong though. OTOH having a Red Bull team with enough power to go toe to toe with Merc and Ferrari would be nice. :thumbup:

Could be fun seeing Sebastian wishing he was back at RBR. :lol:

With those crash prone drivers in RBR, don't you think that even RBR will not wish him? Sebastian will not stay forever with Ferrari. He may add another title with RBR-Honda after he get's this one or two at Ferrari. The guy is a born champion and does not bring problems to the team.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:50 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
The way Red Bull threw Renault under the bus even when winning titles, I fear for Honda partnering with Red Bull. It will be Mclaren all over again. 2019 would definitely be a year too early IMO.

Mclaren was much worse toward honda than RBR ever was to renualt. Difference is honda did not fight back but wanted to continue working with mclaren.
Having said that i hope RBR stays with Renualt. I have grown to like torro rosso with the way they are handling the honda partnership. They just dealt with the situation they were put in by RBR. It would be great if they can make their way from the rear midfield to the front as a works team. I do agree though that RBR may be too much pressure at this stage for honda. But i guess RBR calls the shots. It was their strategic call to take on honda with STR after all.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:53 pm 
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Didnt redbull team up with aston martin because of a possible engine supply deal with aston???

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/132059/red-bull-absolutely-open-to-aston-engine

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 4:51 am 
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Mayhem wrote:
Didnt redbull team up with aston martin because of a possible engine supply deal with aston???

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/132059/red-bull-absolutely-open-to-aston-engine

Could Red Bull be having these discussions with Honda to make Aston realise they are going to have to provide a championship winning engine or RB will go elsewhere?


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 6:23 am 
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Mayhem wrote:
Didnt redbull team up with aston martin because of a possible engine supply deal with aston???

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/132059/red-bull-absolutely-open-to-aston-engine


That's for the new regulations starting in 2021, Red Bull need an engine to cover 2019 and 2020 as Renault have said that they won't supply Red Bull after 2018.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:44 am 
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owenmahamilton wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Didnt redbull team up with aston martin because of a possible engine supply deal with aston???

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/132059/red-bull-absolutely-open-to-aston-engine


That's for the new regulations starting in 2021, Red Bull need an engine to cover 2019 and 2020 as Renault have said that they won't supply Red Bull after 2018.


Yeah well that was the impression I got too but then there's reports Renault have left the ball in RB's court.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/motorsport/formula-one/red-bull-has-some-tough-decisions-to-make/news-story/7e9d38303f18404c6afd69008cf10841

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 Post subject: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:05 am 
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I am sure the Honda engine will keep improving but surely it wouldnt improve that much to catch ferrari and mercedes.

What are your predictions for Honda Redbull next year? Fighting with renault and force india?


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 Post subject: Re: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:22 am 
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hotbmw wrote:
I am sure the Honda engine will keep improving but surely it wouldnt improve that much to catch ferrari and mercedes.

What are your predictions for Honda Redbull next year? Fighting with renault and force india?


Honda engines have earned championships with both McLaren and Williams for a total of 6. As engine supplier they have a total of 69 race wins over the years. As their own constructior they have 3 race wins.

If they decide to seriously go after the championship I don't doubt that they will do it.


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 Post subject: Re: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:36 am 
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Do you think they can switch it on that fast that they are title contenders as early as next year????


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 Post subject: Re: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:52 am 
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hotbmw wrote:
Do you think they can switch it on that fast that they are title contenders as early as next year????


Might be a long shot for next year.

See Honda in Formula 1 at Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_in_Formula_One

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Gra ... e_supplier

Edit: I could see Honda outperforming the Renault P/U on a regular basis as early as next year if they make the commitment. Losing McLaren as a client may have refocused the company on getting better.


Last edited by Mort Canard on Mon May 28, 2018 1:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 1:27 am 
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I can't see Honda catching up but then again will Renault either, at least Honda seem to be on top of their reliability issues and a works deal is always preferable if you don't have the best engine anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 3:21 am 
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The real play here is for Red Bull to focus on the 2021 regulations change. That will be their opportunity to get back to the front of the pack. Throwing everything at trying to catch Mercedes and Ferrari these next two years is a lower-odds play IMO. Partnering with Honda early and building that chemistry while helping them to develop that engine is the best way to go. The 2021 engine will be simpler and without the MGU-H I think Honda will have a much easier time (especially if they get a head start on it). This has been the way that teams come to dominate F1 for the last decade or so. In 2009, Red Bull took advantage of the new rules to get the drop on Ferrari and McLaren and they can do the same thing to Ferrari and Mercedes in 2021. Hell, Mercedes only surged to the top of F1 because they focused on the 2014 rules changes early and threw all kinds of resources at developing their PU.


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 Post subject: Re: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 3:34 am 
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I'm wondering if Honda will face the same issue with Red Bull as they did with McLaren? Tight packaging! Isn't this the reason why Red Bull suffer most of the issues when compared to other Renault driven cars.

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 Post subject: Re: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 4:51 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
The real play here is for Red Bull to focus on the 2021 regulations change. That will be their opportunity to get back to the front of the pack. Throwing everything at trying to catch Mercedes and Ferrari these next two years is a lower-odds play IMO. Partnering with Honda early and building that chemistry while helping them to develop that engine is the best way to go. The 2021 engine will be simpler and without the MGU-H I think Honda will have a much easier time (especially if they get a head start on it). This has been the way that teams come to dominate F1 for the last decade or so. In 2009, Red Bull took advantage of the new rules to get the drop on Ferrari and McLaren and they can do the same thing to Ferrari and Mercedes in 2021. Hell, Mercedes only surged to the top of F1 because they focused on the 2014 rules changes early and threw all kinds of resources at developing their PU.


This is my gut feeling also.

Why would Ricciardo re-sign with redbull then? if they want him he will sign for ferrari or mercedes


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 Post subject: Re: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 8:43 am 
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My gut instinct as to whether redbull will change to Honda is simply if they want to keep Ricciado or not. For a top driver who is potentially in demand for more than one top team, it'll have to be a pretty Steller pitch by redbull and Honda to keep him there.

But then again, the pitch worked on Alonso, who was willing to help them develop until he bored 3 years later! (but it was also Honda that helped him to almost win the indy 500 until his engine gave out, even though it was Honda power that won last year anyway)

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 Post subject: Re: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 8:52 am 
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^I don’t think drivers factor into the decision


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 Post subject: Re: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 9:32 am 
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Zoue wrote:
^I don’t think drivers factor into the decision
I'd say that all depends if drivers are two-a-penny or an expensive commodity? Because you can almost guarantee that the engine supplier will be one of the drivers deciding factors if they have a choice of who to sign with (especially if it is a Honda engine).

I could be very wrong, but if you have a choice of a Ferrari, Mercedes, Redbull Renault or Redbull Honda, which do would you pick? No matter how much money Honda throw at a team, if the engine isn't there, it doesn't matter what the car design is like or who the drivers are.....they just won't win.

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 Post subject: Re: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 9:34 am 
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I wonder if a Honda RBR partnership is a good fit. RBR have been and continue to be loudly critical of Renault, despite all the success they have enjoyed, and I,m not sure that Honda as a company work well under such critical scrutiny.


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 Post subject: Re: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 9:54 am 
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Isnt the renault engine off the table?

There is only a honda engine for redbull in 2019 and 2020 right?


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 Post subject: Re: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 10:00 am 
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hotbmw wrote:
Isnt the renault engine off the table?

There is only a honda engine for redbull in 2019 and 2020 right?


Well I thought that to originally but apparently not.

Renault are prepared to supply RB with engines next year and beyond

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11269833/renault-give-red-bull-deadline

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 Post subject: Re: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 10:51 am 
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Interesting. Article says redbull must decide if they will use a renault engine for 2019 by end of may.


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 11:56 am 
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Merged redbull & honda threads

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 Post subject: Re: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:02 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
I'm wondering if Honda will face the same issue with Red Bull as they did with McLaren? Tight packaging! Isn't this the reason why Red Bull suffer most of the issues when compared to other Renault driven cars.

Yeah I heard it being said that Red Bull would choose not to constrain Honda like McLaren did.

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 Post subject: Re: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:03 pm 
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hotbmw wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The real play here is for Red Bull to focus on the 2021 regulations change. That will be their opportunity to get back to the front of the pack. Throwing everything at trying to catch Mercedes and Ferrari these next two years is a lower-odds play IMO. Partnering with Honda early and building that chemistry while helping them to develop that engine is the best way to go. The 2021 engine will be simpler and without the MGU-H I think Honda will have a much easier time (especially if they get a head start on it). This has been the way that teams come to dominate F1 for the last decade or so. In 2009, Red Bull took advantage of the new rules to get the drop on Ferrari and McLaren and they can do the same thing to Ferrari and Mercedes in 2021. Hell, Mercedes only surged to the top of F1 because they focused on the 2014 rules changes early and threw all kinds of resources at developing their PU.


This is my gut feeling also.

Why would Ricciardo re-sign with redbull then? if they want him he will sign for ferrari or mercedes

I'm not sure those seats are going to be open for him?

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 Post subject: Re: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:07 pm 
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minchy wrote:
My gut instinct as to whether redbull will change to Honda is simply if they want to keep Ricciado or not. For a top driver who is potentially in demand for more than one top team, it'll have to be a pretty Steller pitch by redbull and Honda to keep him there.

But then again, the pitch worked on Alonso, who was willing to help them develop until he bored 3 years later! (but it was also Honda that helped him to almost win the indy 500 until his engine gave out, even though it was Honda power that won last year anyway)

Alonso took a punt that Honda would be the best whereas Ricciardo knows they are not the best, what might tempt Ricciardo is the wages that Honda might pay him, taking this into account with other things obviously Ricciardo has to wait to see which engine Red Bull are going to have.

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 Post subject: Re: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:09 pm 
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hotbmw wrote:
Interesting. Article says redbull must decide if they will use a renault engine for 2019 by end of may.

I heard Horner say they had another month to decide so that would make it the end of June.

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 Post subject: Re: Honda Redbull
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 5:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
minchy wrote:
My gut instinct as to whether redbull will change to Honda is simply if they want to keep Ricciado or not. For a top driver who is potentially in demand for more than one top team, it'll have to be a pretty Steller pitch by redbull and Honda to keep him there.

But then again, the pitch worked on Alonso, who was willing to help them develop until he bored 3 years later! (but it was also Honda that helped him to almost win the indy 500 until his engine gave out, even though it was Honda power that won last year anyway)

Alonso took a punt that Honda would be the best whereas Ricciardo knows they are not the best, what might tempt Ricciardo is the wages that Honda might pay him, taking this into account with other things obviously Ricciardo has to wait to see which engine Red Bull are going to have.



Yip, there are 3 reasons to do things.
Enjoyment
Glory
Cash

Which is going to give Dan the best mix of 3?

He knows RedBull. Is he happy there? there is 'better the devil you know' v 'the grass is greener'
Red Bull always manage a few wins. Even at their worst they are never seen as below top 4
I suspect Red Bull will match or excede what anyone other than Ferrari could offer, then he needs to look hard at 1


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 8:41 pm 
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If redbull keep the renault engine in 2019 i suspect Dan will re-sign with redbull.
Does Vettel have a contract till 2019 or 2020?


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