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Who was at fault?
Ricciardo mostly/completely at fault 2%  2%  [ 3 ]
Ricciardo at fault, but a racing incident 11%  11%  [ 15 ]
Verstappen mostly/completely at fault 69%  69%  [ 96 ]
Verstappen at fault, but a racing incident 19%  19%  [ 26 ]
Total votes : 140
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 12:26 pm 
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Posts: 25374
flyboy10 wrote:
I've come a bit late to this and without reading any other posts on the subject because I want to come in with my viewpoint from the off.

I have one question. In what universe can Ricciardo be to blame for any part in the accident, other than one where you're not supposed to try to overtake the car in front.

That's all he was trying to do and it just happened to be his team-mate.

Nothing wrong with Dani's move but how was Verstappen allowed to get away with changing direction twice and not leaving enough room for the guy behind?

My feeling is that when team-mates are involved, the rules somehow change and the stewards don't do their job.

The converse of this is Hamilton rear-ending Rosberg at Barcelona in 2016. Rosberg had completely done what he was allowed to with a slower car than the guy (team-mate again) trying to overtake him and yet the guy behind just loses it on the grass trying to go where there wasn't room and took out the WDC leader from another 100% record for the season. Only got away with it because it was between team-mates.

It makes no sense!

Apparently Joe Saward asked a steward about the double movement rule and he said it no longer is used, a rule change for the benefit of the young golden child perhaps?

Regarding Barcelona I guess Rosberg had some kind of seizure that caused his car to turn sharply right on the straight?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 9th

Win: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podium: 2nd Barcelona 2018 and Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 12:50 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 13196
pokerman wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
I've come a bit late to this and without reading any other posts on the subject because I want to come in with my viewpoint from the off.

I have one question. In what universe can Ricciardo be to blame for any part in the accident, other than one where you're not supposed to try to overtake the car in front.

That's all he was trying to do and it just happened to be his team-mate.

Nothing wrong with Dani's move but how was Verstappen allowed to get away with changing direction twice and not leaving enough room for the guy behind?

My feeling is that when team-mates are involved, the rules somehow change and the stewards don't do their job.

The converse of this is Hamilton rear-ending Rosberg at Barcelona in 2016. Rosberg had completely done what he was allowed to with a slower car than the guy (team-mate again) trying to overtake him and yet the guy behind just loses it on the grass trying to go where there wasn't room and took out the WDC leader from another 100% record for the season. Only got away with it because it was between team-mates.

It makes no sense!

Apparently Joe Saward asked a steward about the double movement rule and he said it no longer is used, a rule change for the benefit of the young golden child perhaps?

Regarding Barcelona I guess Rosberg had some kind of seizure that caused his car to turn sharply right on the straight?


I think Barcelona 2016 is one of those situations where nobody is really to blame. Rosberg is allowed to turn right sharply on the straight. That doesn't make it sensible of course.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Posts: 7078
Location: Belgium
pokerman wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
I've come a bit late to this and without reading any other posts on the subject because I want to come in with my viewpoint from the off.

I have one question. In what universe can Ricciardo be to blame for any part in the accident, other than one where you're not supposed to try to overtake the car in front.

That's all he was trying to do and it just happened to be his team-mate.

Nothing wrong with Dani's move but how was Verstappen allowed to get away with changing direction twice and not leaving enough room for the guy behind?

My feeling is that when team-mates are involved, the rules somehow change and the stewards don't do their job.

The converse of this is Hamilton rear-ending Rosberg at Barcelona in 2016. Rosberg had completely done what he was allowed to with a slower car than the guy (team-mate again) trying to overtake him and yet the guy behind just loses it on the grass trying to go where there wasn't room and took out the WDC leader from another 100% record for the season. Only got away with it because it was between team-mates.

It makes no sense!

Apparently Joe Saward asked a steward about the double movement rule and he said it no longer is used, a rule change for the benefit of the young golden child perhaps?

Regarding Barcelona I guess Rosberg had some kind of seizure that caused his car to turn sharply right on the straight?
Since the stewards mentioned the two moves in their verdict, it can hardly be rescinded, can it? What has been deleted is what was popularly known as the "Verstappen rule", which had to do with moving in the braking area if I recall correctly. Since that was never a rule before, but rather an understanding between the F1 drivers, I can live with it being gone. That seeing it removed makes Verstappen believe it is now OK to make two moves is troubling, however.

In my view, Rosberg/Hamilton at Barcelona 2016 is a very good one to remember, as the stewards' verdict said he didn't have the time to react to Hamilton getting a significant portion of his car alongside his own. Surely this is what the Baku stewards should have realised when attributing blame to Ricciardo?
Oh, and much like the Verstappen rule, that bit about a significant portion of the car alongside has also gone from the rule book. All in the interest of more action. Which Verstappen is dutifully providing...

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 3:07 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 25374
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
I've come a bit late to this and without reading any other posts on the subject because I want to come in with my viewpoint from the off.

I have one question. In what universe can Ricciardo be to blame for any part in the accident, other than one where you're not supposed to try to overtake the car in front.

That's all he was trying to do and it just happened to be his team-mate.

Nothing wrong with Dani's move but how was Verstappen allowed to get away with changing direction twice and not leaving enough room for the guy behind?

My feeling is that when team-mates are involved, the rules somehow change and the stewards don't do their job.

The converse of this is Hamilton rear-ending Rosberg at Barcelona in 2016. Rosberg had completely done what he was allowed to with a slower car than the guy (team-mate again) trying to overtake him and yet the guy behind just loses it on the grass trying to go where there wasn't room and took out the WDC leader from another 100% record for the season. Only got away with it because it was between team-mates.

It makes no sense!

Apparently Joe Saward asked a steward about the double movement rule and he said it no longer is used, a rule change for the benefit of the young golden child perhaps?

Regarding Barcelona I guess Rosberg had some kind of seizure that caused his car to turn sharply right on the straight?


I think Barcelona 2016 is one of those situations where nobody is really to blame. Rosberg is allowed to turn right sharply on the straight. That doesn't make it sensible of course.

Strange because I thought reacting to what the other driver is doing and forcing them off the track and then causing a collision just might be against the rules but then again as we see with the main topic of the thread the stewards are open to their own interpretation.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 9th

Win: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podium: 2nd Barcelona 2018 and Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 3:10 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 25374
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
I've come a bit late to this and without reading any other posts on the subject because I want to come in with my viewpoint from the off.

I have one question. In what universe can Ricciardo be to blame for any part in the accident, other than one where you're not supposed to try to overtake the car in front.

That's all he was trying to do and it just happened to be his team-mate.

Nothing wrong with Dani's move but how was Verstappen allowed to get away with changing direction twice and not leaving enough room for the guy behind?

My feeling is that when team-mates are involved, the rules somehow change and the stewards don't do their job.

The converse of this is Hamilton rear-ending Rosberg at Barcelona in 2016. Rosberg had completely done what he was allowed to with a slower car than the guy (team-mate again) trying to overtake him and yet the guy behind just loses it on the grass trying to go where there wasn't room and took out the WDC leader from another 100% record for the season. Only got away with it because it was between team-mates.

It makes no sense!

Apparently Joe Saward asked a steward about the double movement rule and he said it no longer is used, a rule change for the benefit of the young golden child perhaps?

Regarding Barcelona I guess Rosberg had some kind of seizure that caused his car to turn sharply right on the straight?
Since the stewards mentioned the two moves in their verdict, it can hardly be rescinded, can it? What has been deleted is what was popularly known as the "Verstappen rule", which had to do with moving in the braking area if I recall correctly. Since that was never a rule before, but rather an understanding between the F1 drivers, I can live with it being gone. That seeing it removed makes Verstappen believe it is now OK to make two moves is troubling, however.

In my view, Rosberg/Hamilton at Barcelona 2016 is a very good one to remember, as the stewards' verdict said he didn't have the time to react to Hamilton getting a significant portion of his car alongside his own. Surely this is what the Baku stewards should have realised when attributing blame to Ricciardo?
Oh, and much like the Verstappen rule, that bit about a significant portion of the car alongside has also gone from the rule book. All in the interest of more action. Which Verstappen is dutifully providing...

They mentioned the two moves then basically ignored it, in Barcelona Rosberg reacted to the car behind like Verstappen did and then caused a collision, I fail to see the difference.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 9th

Win: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podium: 2nd Barcelona 2018 and Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 13196
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
I've come a bit late to this and without reading any other posts on the subject because I want to come in with my viewpoint from the off.

I have one question. In what universe can Ricciardo be to blame for any part in the accident, other than one where you're not supposed to try to overtake the car in front.

That's all he was trying to do and it just happened to be his team-mate.

Nothing wrong with Dani's move but how was Verstappen allowed to get away with changing direction twice and not leaving enough room for the guy behind?

My feeling is that when team-mates are involved, the rules somehow change and the stewards don't do their job.

The converse of this is Hamilton rear-ending Rosberg at Barcelona in 2016. Rosberg had completely done what he was allowed to with a slower car than the guy (team-mate again) trying to overtake him and yet the guy behind just loses it on the grass trying to go where there wasn't room and took out the WDC leader from another 100% record for the season. Only got away with it because it was between team-mates.

It makes no sense!

Apparently Joe Saward asked a steward about the double movement rule and he said it no longer is used, a rule change for the benefit of the young golden child perhaps?

Regarding Barcelona I guess Rosberg had some kind of seizure that caused his car to turn sharply right on the straight?


I think Barcelona 2016 is one of those situations where nobody is really to blame. Rosberg is allowed to turn right sharply on the straight. That doesn't make it sensible of course.

Strange because I thought reacting to what the other driver is doing and forcing them off the track and then causing a collision just might be against the rules but then again as we see with the main topic of the thread the stewards are open to their own interpretation.


The question mark is did Hamilton get alongside Rosberg before Rosberg ran him out of room. I think he just didn't make it.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 3:56 pm 
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I can't believe this is still being discussed, of course Max was to blame.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:15 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7078
Location: Belgium
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
I've come a bit late to this and without reading any other posts on the subject because I want to come in with my viewpoint from the off.

I have one question. In what universe can Ricciardo be to blame for any part in the accident, other than one where you're not supposed to try to overtake the car in front.

That's all he was trying to do and it just happened to be his team-mate.

Nothing wrong with Dani's move but how was Verstappen allowed to get away with changing direction twice and not leaving enough room for the guy behind?

My feeling is that when team-mates are involved, the rules somehow change and the stewards don't do their job.

The converse of this is Hamilton rear-ending Rosberg at Barcelona in 2016. Rosberg had completely done what he was allowed to with a slower car than the guy (team-mate again) trying to overtake him and yet the guy behind just loses it on the grass trying to go where there wasn't room and took out the WDC leader from another 100% record for the season. Only got away with it because it was between team-mates.

It makes no sense!

Apparently Joe Saward asked a steward about the double movement rule and he said it no longer is used, a rule change for the benefit of the young golden child perhaps?

Regarding Barcelona I guess Rosberg had some kind of seizure that caused his car to turn sharply right on the straight?
Since the stewards mentioned the two moves in their verdict, it can hardly be rescinded, can it? What has been deleted is what was popularly known as the "Verstappen rule", which had to do with moving in the braking area if I recall correctly. Since that was never a rule before, but rather an understanding between the F1 drivers, I can live with it being gone. That seeing it removed makes Verstappen believe it is now OK to make two moves is troubling, however.

In my view, Rosberg/Hamilton at Barcelona 2016 is a very good one to remember, as the stewards' verdict said he didn't have the time to react to Hamilton getting a significant portion of his car alongside his own. Surely this is what the Baku stewards should have realised when attributing blame to Ricciardo?
Oh, and much like the Verstappen rule, that bit about a significant portion of the car alongside has also gone from the rule book. All in the interest of more action. Which Verstappen is dutifully providing...

They mentioned the two moves then basically ignored it, in Barcelona Rosberg reacted to the car behind like Verstappen did and then caused a collision, I fail to see the difference.
I believe you failed to see it at the time also. Rosberg didn't make two moves; he only went to the right in one continuous move. This he did the moment he saw Hamilton disappear from his left rear. Hamilton just got his front wing alongside Rosberg's right rear wheel before running off the track, leaving Rosberg without time to react.
That verdict was indeed a very fine effort by the stewards.

Verstappen wanted the inside (left), then moved when Ricciardo went right, then changed his mind again when Ricciardo switched.

Ocon wrote:
I can't believe this is still being discussed, of course Max was to blame.
True. But that isn't reflected in the stewards' verdict. Nor does the team seem to understand it.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:28 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 25374
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
I've come a bit late to this and without reading any other posts on the subject because I want to come in with my viewpoint from the off.

I have one question. In what universe can Ricciardo be to blame for any part in the accident, other than one where you're not supposed to try to overtake the car in front.

That's all he was trying to do and it just happened to be his team-mate.

Nothing wrong with Dani's move but how was Verstappen allowed to get away with changing direction twice and not leaving enough room for the guy behind?

My feeling is that when team-mates are involved, the rules somehow change and the stewards don't do their job.

The converse of this is Hamilton rear-ending Rosberg at Barcelona in 2016. Rosberg had completely done what he was allowed to with a slower car than the guy (team-mate again) trying to overtake him and yet the guy behind just loses it on the grass trying to go where there wasn't room and took out the WDC leader from another 100% record for the season. Only got away with it because it was between team-mates.

It makes no sense!

Apparently Joe Saward asked a steward about the double movement rule and he said it no longer is used, a rule change for the benefit of the young golden child perhaps?

Regarding Barcelona I guess Rosberg had some kind of seizure that caused his car to turn sharply right on the straight?


I think Barcelona 2016 is one of those situations where nobody is really to blame. Rosberg is allowed to turn right sharply on the straight. That doesn't make it sensible of course.

Strange because I thought reacting to what the other driver is doing and forcing them off the track and then causing a collision just might be against the rules but then again as we see with the main topic of the thread the stewards are open to their own interpretation.


The question mark is did Hamilton get alongside Rosberg before Rosberg ran him out of room. I think he just didn't make it.

Ricciardo made it even less, if you get a big speed differential with a sudden late move by the car in front then don't be too surprised by what may entail.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 9th

Win: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podium: 2nd Barcelona 2018 and Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:32 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 25374
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
I've come a bit late to this and without reading any other posts on the subject because I want to come in with my viewpoint from the off.

I have one question. In what universe can Ricciardo be to blame for any part in the accident, other than one where you're not supposed to try to overtake the car in front.

That's all he was trying to do and it just happened to be his team-mate.

Nothing wrong with Dani's move but how was Verstappen allowed to get away with changing direction twice and not leaving enough room for the guy behind?

My feeling is that when team-mates are involved, the rules somehow change and the stewards don't do their job.

The converse of this is Hamilton rear-ending Rosberg at Barcelona in 2016. Rosberg had completely done what he was allowed to with a slower car than the guy (team-mate again) trying to overtake him and yet the guy behind just loses it on the grass trying to go where there wasn't room and took out the WDC leader from another 100% record for the season. Only got away with it because it was between team-mates.

It makes no sense!

Apparently Joe Saward asked a steward about the double movement rule and he said it no longer is used, a rule change for the benefit of the young golden child perhaps?

Regarding Barcelona I guess Rosberg had some kind of seizure that caused his car to turn sharply right on the straight?
Since the stewards mentioned the two moves in their verdict, it can hardly be rescinded, can it? What has been deleted is what was popularly known as the "Verstappen rule", which had to do with moving in the braking area if I recall correctly. Since that was never a rule before, but rather an understanding between the F1 drivers, I can live with it being gone. That seeing it removed makes Verstappen believe it is now OK to make two moves is troubling, however.

In my view, Rosberg/Hamilton at Barcelona 2016 is a very good one to remember, as the stewards' verdict said he didn't have the time to react to Hamilton getting a significant portion of his car alongside his own. Surely this is what the Baku stewards should have realised when attributing blame to Ricciardo?
Oh, and much like the Verstappen rule, that bit about a significant portion of the car alongside has also gone from the rule book. All in the interest of more action. Which Verstappen is dutifully providing...

They mentioned the two moves then basically ignored it, in Barcelona Rosberg reacted to the car behind like Verstappen did and then caused a collision, I fail to see the difference.
I believe you failed to see it at the time also. Rosberg didn't make two moves; he only went to the right in one continuous move. This he did the moment he saw Hamilton disappear from his left rear. Hamilton just got his front wing alongside Rosberg's right rear wheel before running off the track, leaving Rosberg without time to react.
That verdict was indeed a very fine effort by the stewards.

Verstappen wanted the inside (left), then moved when Ricciardo went right, then changed his mind again when Ricciardo switched.

Ocon wrote:
I can't believe this is still being discussed, of course Max was to blame.
True. But that isn't reflected in the stewards' verdict. Nor does the team seem to understand it.

Rosberg was watching his mirrors and reacted to what Hamilton did it's no different to what Verstappen does, what you seem to skim over is the big speed difference, Rosberg's car was deregging as in it was missing 160hp, he was a sitting duck with one defence and that was to run Hamilton off the track.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 9th

Win: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podium: 2nd Barcelona 2018 and Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:34 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7078
Location: Belgium
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The question mark is did Hamilton get alongside Rosberg before Rosberg ran him out of room. I think he just didn't make it.

Ricciardo made it even less, if you get a big speed differential with a sudden late move by the car in front then don't be too surprised by what may entail.
Ricciardo didn't need to make it. Max wasn't allowed to make his second move.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:41 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7078
Location: Belgium
pokerman wrote:
Rosberg was watching his mirrors and reacted to what Hamilton did it's no different to what Verstappen does, what you seem to skim over is the big speed difference, Rosberg's car was deregging as in it was missing 160hp, he was a sitting duck with one defence and that was to run Hamilton off the track.
Of course Rosberg reacted to what Hamilton did; that's why it is important to remember that Hamilton went to the right from being the Rosberg's left rear. Which Rosberg was allowed to do, just as Max was. The difference between the two cases is that Rosberg didn't make two moves. And that he didn't run Hamilton off the track, but that Hamilton ran out of track to get alongside with time and room for Rosberg to react.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


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