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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 10:53 pm 
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hotbmw wrote:
If redbull keep the renault engine in 2019 i suspect Dan will re-sign with redbull.
Does Vettel have a contract till 2019 or 2020?

2020

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:43 am 
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Why can't RBR continue with Renault for 2019 decide next year for 2020 or 2021 whether they move like partnership with Honda ? That would make more sense. I am sure they are monitoring Honda performance closely with TR. The 100million $ and free engine is great to have but one of the criteria for RBR was Honda should be on par with Renault in performance as well as reliability.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:35 am 
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It is being reported by Autosport that Red Bull will switch to Honda engines for 2019 and an announcement could be made at the French GP weekend. It's an interesting development, what will they do about Aston Martin and will Adrian Newey stay beyond this season. There are rumours he could join Renault!!

Thoughts people please about Red Bull switching to Honda.


Last edited by Mod Titanium on Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Merged w/ previous Honda thread


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:52 am 
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I really want this move to be a success, and I’m not even a Red Bull fan.

It would be a waste of talent to see Ricciardo and Verstappen struggling in the midfield next season. Those two should be contending for victories.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:24 am 
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I think this is an extremely risky move. Let's face it Honda hasn't been good since the 80s. Although their current pu is performing well in the back of that TR, how well they cope with Redbulls' tighter packaging requirements has to be a big question mark. And what if Renault stays ahead of Honda next year? Yes, there is the works deal, but is that gonna help if Honda is still the worst engine? I don't know, I wish them well, but I wouldn't hold my breathe on it being the slam dunk success some think it is going to be.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:32 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
I really want this move to be a success, and I’m not even a Red Bull fan.

I want it to be an abject failure, but that's mostly bitterness talking. :-P

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:36 am 
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Hopefully that means Ricciardo goes to Ferrari or Mercedes. If true, and the Honda doesn't match Ferrari or Mercedes, Max is going to be frustrated at having such a long contract.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:09 am 
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Alonso to Red Bull then?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:30 am 
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It was a sure thing to happen after a few races where that Honda was not only reliable but fast as well. My only worry is does Red Bull have the same tight engine spacing as McLaren? Both of these 2 teams in the recent times have faced the most issues. Is it a coincidence?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:24 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
It was a sure thing to happen after a few races where that Honda was not only reliable but fast as well. My only worry is does Red Bull have the same tight engine spacing as McLaren? Both of these 2 teams in the recent times have faced the most issues. Is it a coincidence?


Honda had 1 engine design for 2015 and 2016.
They binned that design and introduced a new design for 2017.
The idea is that the 2017 design is much better and will suit upgrades for future years.
However it wasn’t ready for prime time in 2017.

It did seem that McLaren’s tight chassis did contribute to the engine reliability, however it probably had more to do with Honda getting on top of issues and fixing up the engine for 2018 that Toro Rosso is more reliable.
It is impossible to say exactly where the issue was.

With Red Bull, they will be contributing to the engine development financially vs McLaren being paid a small fortune as well as getting free engines. I bet they will ramp up R&D once the deal gets signed to ensure they have a good engine for next season.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:42 am 
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wolfticket wrote:
Alonso to Red Bull then?

Hope not, I really want them to succeed.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:21 am 
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On the topic of Newey: I don't think he'll ever switch teams again. He gets all the freedom he wants at RBR, and the proper recognition. Signs are he'll be gradually moving out of F1 instead of moving to another team where work would intensify again.

Furthermore I share some concern with kleefton: McLaren's tight packaging was supposed to be one of the reasons the cooperation failed, I don't see RBR contenting themselves with a more than minimal packaging. Honda are enjoying an environment where demands made of them are pretty comfortable now in that STR, but in the RBR they're going to have to really step up.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:44 am 
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paulsf1fix wrote:
It is being reported by Autosport that Red Bull will switch to Honda engines for 2019 and an announcement could be made at the French GP weekend. It's an interesting development, what will they do about Aston Martin and will Adrian Newey stay beyond this season. There are rumours he could join Renault!!

Thoughts people please about Red Bull switching to Honda.


If the Newey move is true, Ricciardo to Renault could be a very plausible scenario.

The timing is a little off. Ideally, you’d think they’d want to announce it in Austria at their home GP. Instead, they’re doing it in France, essentially Renault’s home GP. It comes across as the final FU to Renault.
Then again, they could be beating Renault to the punch. This avoids Renault announcing they’re dropping Red Bull at their home GP.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:05 am 
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It is 100% official now

Honda: https://global.honda/newsroom/news/2018/c180619eng.html
RBR: https://redbullracing.redbull.com/artic ... power-2019

*edit


Last edited by rivf1 on Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:12 am 
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There have been strong hints from Aston Martin that they will become a supplier in 2021 and the obvious team for them to supply is Red Bull.

Will be interesting to see how long the deal is guaranteed for but it wouldn't surprise me if it was pretty short. Either that or filled with performance clauses demanding a lot from the Honda unit.

Edit: just saw in that article above it's a 2 year deal. So conveniently ending just as Aston are rumoured to be entering.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:14 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
There have been strong hints from Aston Martin that they will become a supplier in 2021 and the obvious team for them to supply is Red Bull.

Will be interesting to see how long the deal is guaranteed for but it wouldn't surprise me if it was pretty short. Either that or filled with performance clauses demanding a lot from the Honda unit.


The Aston Martin thing has been confusing me also. The link provided above says it’s a 2 year deal, so in line with the new engine regs. Aston deal could still go through


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:31 am 
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Can anybody honestly say this comes as a surprise? I, along with many others, saw this coming the moment it was announced that Honda were supplying STR. It was always going to be predicated on when Honda started to show decent progress with the engine.

It's a good move. I'm only gutted that McLaren didn't wait one more year before pulling the plug (although I can understand why they ran out of patience). Even Abiteboel acknowledged the advantage of RB taking a works deal:

“I understand what they are looking to get.

“They are looking to the technical and commercial side, because it is clearly different remaining a customer and partner of Renault versus becoming a works team with Honda. It is very different and I appreciate that."


It looks like Honda have impressed with the latest upgrade and by all accounts the Honda PU is smaller and lighter than the Renault one, which will allow RB greater packaging freedom, too. I think this only strengthens Red Bull


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:36 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Can anybody honestly say this comes as a surprise? I, along with many others, saw this coming the moment it was announced that Honda were supplying STR. It was always going to be predicated on when Honda started to show decent progress with the engine.

It's a good move. I'm only gutted that McLaren didn't wait one more year before pulling the plug (although I can understand why they ran out of patience). Even Abiteboel acknowledged the advantage of RB taking a works deal:

“I understand what they are looking to get.

“They are looking to the technical and commercial side, because it is clearly different remaining a customer and partner of Renault versus becoming a works team with Honda. It is very different and I appreciate that."


It looks like Honda have impressed with the latest upgrade and by all accounts the Honda PU is smaller and lighter than the Renault one, which will allow RB greater packaging freedom, too. I think this only strengthens Red Bull


This would be so good for the sport!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:13 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
There have been strong hints from Aston Martin that they will become a supplier in 2021 and the obvious team for them to supply is Red Bull.

Will be interesting to see how long the deal is guaranteed for but it wouldn't surprise me if it was pretty short. Either that or filled with performance clauses demanding a lot from the Honda unit.

Edit: just saw in that article above it's a 2 year deal. So conveniently ending just as Aston are rumoured to be entering.


Any new entrant is going to take years to catch up just like honda maybe to a lesser extent, unless rules require a complete change of ICE technology. That is were primary energy is released and Merc are kings at it. Status quo most like to remain as end of 2020. New entrant will not be worth taking a chance with top teams. They may get a deal with STR or come in on their own. RBR only options will really be to stick with Honda or go back to Renault, Ferrari unlikely to supply and Merc maybe if they decide to go back to engine supplier only.

On the news it self it's good for F1 to have another works team, good for RBR, good for honda. I was quietly hoping RBR stick with Renault and STR grow to a top team as a works team. I grew to like them quiet a lot given how they adapted with Honda. But this was RBR strategy since last year. They gave up a driver and possible prize money with STR falling back with Honda in 2018. They made a call which will go down as a master stroke if it works out


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:03 am 
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They were not making success with Renault, as they were not in the WDC game. Running in circles is not their natural position. Of course they need to move away from that.
Also, they have more data concerning the Honda engine than we. They surely did not made any suicidal move by this, because, contrary to the Mclaren situation for 2015, they can trace the engine development for several years back. Obviously they are happy enough to move.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:17 pm 
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mds wrote:
On the topic of Newey: I don't think he'll ever switch teams again. He gets all the freedom he wants at RBR, and the proper recognition. Signs are he'll be gradually moving out of F1 instead of moving to another team where work would intensify again.

Furthermore I share some concern with kleefton: McLaren's tight packaging was supposed to be one of the reasons the cooperation failed, I don't see RBR contenting themselves with a more than minimal packaging. Honda are enjoying an environment where demands made of them are pretty comfortable now in that STR, but in the RBR they're going to have to really step up.


Exactly my thoughts back in April on this thread..

It's either a masterstroke, or a balls up. Will be interesting to see which way it goes.

Will also be interesting to see how the RB / Renault relationship will be for the rest of the season - surely Renault have secrets for next year they want to hush up..

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:27 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
I really want this move to be a success, and I’m not even a Red Bull fan.

It would be a waste of talent to see Ricciardo and Verstappen struggling in the midfield next season. Those two should be contending for victories.


Well Daniel has two this year. China and Monaco.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:32 pm 
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As I remember Toro Rosso has only had one P/U failure this year at Australia with Pierre Gasly. (Gasly and Hartley each also have retirement(s) due to collision) That is not bad for a new car and P/U combination.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:52 pm 
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I originally did a thread for this! strange my one has been taken down.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:24 pm 
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Toro Rosso are currently 7th in the constructors championship with 19 points. Their best result this season has been a 4th place, and they are usually competing in the midfield every race.

In other words, this has been a typical season for Toro Rosso, no different from the last 8 years or so.

Surely the Honda engine can’t be that bad.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:25 pm 
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paulsf1fix wrote:
I originally did a thread for this! strange my one has been taken down.

The two threads have been merged and the replies on that thread have been moved to this one.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:49 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Toro Rosso are currently 7th in the constructors championship with 19 points. Their best result this season has been a 4th place, and they are usually competing in the midfield every race.

In other words, this has been a typical season for Toro Rosso, no different from the last 8 years or so.

Surely the Honda engine can’t be that bad.


Thing is, I think STR has been held back by various reasons, mostly PU side, for most of the past seasons.
- 2014 & 2015: Renault unit obviously was a disaster. How RBR did what they did (especially in 2014) remains impressive but still Toro Rosso was at a huge disadvantage compared to the "non-top" teams who were sporting mostly Mercedes engines. In both years they beat all non-top teams without the Merc engine
- 2016: started off well pretty well but the outdated non-developed 2015 Ferrari PU made them gradually fall behind
- 2017: probably did a bit worse on the chassis side than the years before

And realistically, they are now 7th in the WCC but they should really be well behind Haas. They're also running behind on their points total of this point last year, as well as on total points finishes ( even if you discard Hartley and take Gasly's performances vs those of Sainz last year).


But, having said all that, evidently RBR have looked at all the data and they've come to the conclusion that the Honda decision holds more promise. So even if Honda aren't there at this point, they too are seeing an upwards curve that would elevate them above Renault somewhere in the coming 1.5 years.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:06 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
There have been strong hints from Aston Martin that they will become a supplier in 2021 and the obvious team for them to supply is Red Bull.

Will be interesting to see how long the deal is guaranteed for but it wouldn't surprise me if it was pretty short. Either that or filled with performance clauses demanding a lot from the Honda unit.

Edit: just saw in that article above it's a 2 year deal. So conveniently ending just as Aston are rumoured to be entering.


Aston Martin is T-I-N-Y. They'll have to bend the rules of physics to produce an engine that is on par with others with their budget. They're like the Quantum cheque for Lotus. It simply can't, and won't, happen. Why can't people stop talking about it? Where'd AM get the money to produce a decent engine?

The only way they can do it is with collaboration with a major carmaker. In this case, I wouldn't be surprised if RBR brokered a deal between Aston and Honda.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:08 pm 
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I think by the time next year we're at testing the Honda engine will be in the ballpark of Renault in all departments, some things ahead and some things not but all in all not much difference. Seems the Honda's smaller and can be better packaged so bizarrely it might not actually be about the engine performance but Red Bull will know precisely how they can package the Honda by now so they'll know what they can get out of the car by the switch too and that could tip it over the edge if they are in the ballpark now in most areas engine wise.

Would be interesting to see if this almost mythical MGU-K of Renault's suddenly appears now it's done though. You've got to assume Renault at least have their nose put out of joint so their response will be interesting. AMuS(I think it was anyway) said Renault efficiency in the race already matched Ferrari in Canada I believe.

McLaren must feel sick. All the pain and no benefit. Red Bull no pain and gain Exxon,Tag Heuer and now Honda.

Ouch.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:14 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
I think by the time next year we're at testing the Honda engine will be in the ballpark of Renault in all departments, some things ahead and some things not but all in all not much difference. Seems the Honda's smaller and can be better packaged so bizarrely it might not actually be about the engine performance but Red Bull will know precisely how they can package the Honda by now so they'll know what they can get out of the car by the switch too and that could tip it over the edge if they are in the ballpark now in most areas engine wise.

Would be interesting to see if this almost mythical MGU-K of Renault's suddenly appears now it's done though. You've got to assume Renault at least have their nose put out of joint so their response will be interesting. AMuS(I think it was anyway) said Renault efficiency in the race already matched Ferrari in Canada I believe.

McLaren must feel sick. All the pain and no benefit. Red Bull no pain and gain Exxon,Tag Heuer and now Honda.

Ouch.

Yeah I feel for McLaren, I really do. They must be cursing right now


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:17 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
There have been strong hints from Aston Martin that they will become a supplier in 2021 and the obvious team for them to supply is Red Bull.

Will be interesting to see how long the deal is guaranteed for but it wouldn't surprise me if it was pretty short. Either that or filled with performance clauses demanding a lot from the Honda unit.

Edit: just saw in that article above it's a 2 year deal. So conveniently ending just as Aston are rumoured to be entering.


Aston Martin is T-I-N-Y. They'll have to bend the rules of physics to produce an engine that is on par with others with their budget. They're like the Quantum cheque for Lotus. It simply can't, and won't, happen. Why can't people stop talking about it? Where'd AM get the money to produce a decent engine?

The only way they can do it is with collaboration with a major carmaker. In this case, I wouldn't be surprised if RBR brokered a deal between Aston and Honda.

Well it is complicated a lot anyway by the fact that Aston Martin road cars currently have their engines supplied by Mercedes AMG, who own 5% of AM.

Apparently the expectation would be for them to team up with e.g. Cosworth. How they plan to do it is anyone's guess but they've publicly stated they are keen to do so.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.moto ... 40623/amp/


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:19 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
I think by the time next year we're at testing the Honda engine will be in the ballpark of Renault in all departments, some things ahead and some things not but all in all not much difference.


Well, Honda is aiming for RBR to start the season next year at the performance level they're now. Given that Renault are probably due another update this year and RBR are definitely still developing, I think that means on the PU side they expect to be still a bit behind the Renault PU at season's start.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:20 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think by the time next year we're at testing the Honda engine will be in the ballpark of Renault in all departments, some things ahead and some things not but all in all not much difference. Seems the Honda's smaller and can be better packaged so bizarrely it might not actually be about the engine performance but Red Bull will know precisely how they can package the Honda by now so they'll know what they can get out of the car by the switch too and that could tip it over the edge if they are in the ballpark now in most areas engine wise.

Would be interesting to see if this almost mythical MGU-K of Renault's suddenly appears now it's done though. You've got to assume Renault at least have their nose put out of joint so their response will be interesting. AMuS(I think it was anyway) said Renault efficiency in the race already matched Ferrari in Canada I believe.

McLaren must feel sick. All the pain and no benefit. Red Bull no pain and gain Exxon,Tag Heuer and now Honda.

Ouch.

Yeah I feel for McLaren, I really do. They must be cursing right now


Well there recent focus has been behind-the-scenes machinations and fighting egos. Personally I don't feel bad at all.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:26 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
paulsf1fix wrote:
I originally did a thread for this! strange my one has been taken down.

The two threads have been merged and the replies on that thread have been moved to this one.



your thread was merged with this one which was already discussing the same topic. All post were moved here

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:28 pm 
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mds wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think by the time next year we're at testing the Honda engine will be in the ballpark of Renault in all departments, some things ahead and some things not but all in all not much difference.


Well, Honda is aiming for RBR to start the season next year at the performance level they're now. Given that Renault are probably due another update this year and RBR are definitely still developing, I think that means on the PU side they expect to be still a bit behind the Renault PU at season's start.


Sorry, I missed that from Honda. I think the chassis benefits could still tip it for Red Bull or maybe they really were just fed up with Renault.

I want to see the K in action with Renault's Spec "C" and Red Bull's reaction to it . :]

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:31 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think by the time next year we're at testing the Honda engine will be in the ballpark of Renault in all departments, some things ahead and some things not but all in all not much difference. Seems the Honda's smaller and can be better packaged so bizarrely it might not actually be about the engine performance but Red Bull will know precisely how they can package the Honda by now so they'll know what they can get out of the car by the switch too and that could tip it over the edge if they are in the ballpark now in most areas engine wise.

Would be interesting to see if this almost mythical MGU-K of Renault's suddenly appears now it's done though. You've got to assume Renault at least have their nose put out of joint so their response will be interesting. AMuS(I think it was anyway) said Renault efficiency in the race already matched Ferrari in Canada I believe.

McLaren must feel sick. All the pain and no benefit. Red Bull no pain and gain Exxon,Tag Heuer and now Honda.

Ouch.

Yeah I feel for McLaren, I really do. They must be cursing right now


Yeah same.

I know splitting was their choice but they put a lot of blood,sweat and tears into helping Honda, especially on the ERS side, and they're going to watch a rival benefit from it all.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:53 pm 
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Wow unbelievable 8O Marko said he expect Honda to overtake Renault this year but I guess it was just another jab at Renault.

I do not think it was just for some 100million$ and free engines. RBR has all the data so it is a calculated risk. I do not think RBR will become midfielder or this will backfire. At worst they might be 4th best team behind Renault :? But I highly doubt it.

Basically this allows Honda to do testing for rest of the year with TR without caring too much about this year. RBR and TR to use Honda engine is also good. They need more mileage. Renault has only Mclaren now to supply engine. It should also motivate them to do well next year. I think this is good for F1.

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Last edited by Mercedes-Benz on Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:53 pm 
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Red Bull's has made the decision but this surely puts Ricciardo in a quandary! Should he stay or go?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:39 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Red Bull's has made the decision but this surely puts Ricciardo in a quandary! Should he stay or go?

Where to? Doesn't seem like there's anywhere for him to go.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:47 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Red Bull's has made the decision but this surely puts Ricciardo in a quandary! Should he stay or go?

Where to? Doesn't seem like there's anywhere for him to go.

Second that. It's not like he has much of a choice. He basically has to hope Mercedes or Ferrari lose faith in their 2nd drivers, which doesn't look likely at the moment


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