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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 6:30 am 
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oz_karter wrote:
I think both Haas drivers are among the weakest on the grid.

Magnussen is outperforming Grosjean, but that doesn't make him fast. The Haas is a strong car but both drivers have inconsistent performances and poor attitudes.

Maybe only the Williams drivers rank behind these two.

Haas could be a contender for best of the midfield. A good scenario would be to grab Raikkonen or Bottas if either is pushed out by Ricciardo, and employing a young gun like Leclerc.

I think that's a little harsh. Grosjean has shown speed before, even if he is very accident prone. And so has KM. I don't think there's much evidence of KM in particular being one of the worst drivers on the grid


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 7:04 am 
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Zoue wrote:
oz_karter wrote:
I think both Haas drivers are among the weakest on the grid.

Magnussen is outperforming Grosjean, but that doesn't make him fast. The Haas is a strong car but both drivers have inconsistent performances and poor attitudes.

Maybe only the Williams drivers rank behind these two.

Haas could be a contender for best of the midfield. A good scenario would be to grab Raikkonen or Bottas if either is pushed out by Ricciardo, and employing a young gun like Leclerc.

I think that's a little harsh. Grosjean has shown speed before, even if he is very accident prone. And so has KM. I don't think there's much evidence of KM in particular being one of the worst drivers on the grid


But his ignorance & arrogance regarding safety & others safety is not being appreciated by fellow drivers on the grid. The Haas car is suiting his driving style but his ignorance towards safety is a big distraction when looking towards his formbook.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 7:07 am 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
For me, Leclerc is a no-brainer if they can make it happen. I think he's a very talented young driver; the second best F1 driver under 25 behind only Max IMO.

Why behind Max, necessarily? Is there any objective measure that implies Max is better? He's certainly more experienced at the F1 level by now, but Leclerc has an equivalent or better junior record (considering Max basically has no junior record) and has started to completely dominate his experienced teammate lately.

Verstappen defeated Leclerc in karting in 2013 I believe?

In my opinion, Verstappen has better racecraft than Leclerc. They are both very fast (difficult to compare their speed), but Max just has an extra gear when he’s overtaking or defending. Take nothing away from Leclerc, he’s a great driver, but I think that Max is even better.

Verstappen, Leclerc and Norris will dominate the sport after Vettel and Hamilton retire in 2020.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 7:31 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Verstappen defeated Leclerc in karting in 2013 I believe?

In my opinion, Verstappen has better racecraft than Leclerc. They are both very fast (difficult to compare their speed), but Max just has an extra gear when he’s overtaking or defending. Take nothing away from Leclerc, he’s a great driver, but I think that Max is even better.

Verstappen, Leclerc and Norris will dominate the sport after Vettel and Hamilton retire in 2020.

I don't really follow karting, so I can't comment on that bit.

I don't agree on the racecraft, however. Leclerc messed up the VSC restart, but before that he had quite skillfully kept Alonso behind him for lap after lap in a slower car, and without resorting to the sort of dangerous and borderline legal defending that Verstappen often uses. The difference I feel is that Verstappen has always gone for marginal moves, both when overtaking and defending. In the past it often worked and so of course the reaction from the press and fans was positive, but this year many of them aren't working, and I think that's exposing a flaw that has always been there.

Agree with you on Verstappen / Leclerc / Norris, however. Possibly Russel as well, since he's looking impressive in F2 so far. The next generation is shaping up quite nicely, and I'll be very interested to see the first time Verstappen and Leclerc go head to head in anything like competitive machinery.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 12:00 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Verstappen defeated Leclerc in karting in 2013 I believe?

In my opinion, Verstappen has better racecraft than Leclerc. They are both very fast (difficult to compare their speed), but Max just has an extra gear when he’s overtaking or defending. Take nothing away from Leclerc, he’s a great driver, but I think that Max is even better.

Verstappen, Leclerc and Norris will dominate the sport after Vettel and Hamilton retire in 2020.

I don't really follow karting, so I can't comment on that bit.

I don't agree on the racecraft, however. Leclerc messed up the VSC restart, but before that he had quite skillfully kept Alonso behind him for lap after lap in a slower car, and without resorting to the sort of dangerous and borderline legal defending that Verstappen often uses. The difference I feel is that Verstappen has always gone for marginal moves, both when overtaking and defending. In the past it often worked and so of course the reaction from the press and fans was positive, but this year many of them aren't working, and I think that's exposing a flaw that has always been there.

Agree with you on Verstappen / Leclerc / Norris, however. Possibly Russel as well, since he's looking impressive in F2 so far. The next generation is shaping up quite nicely, and I'll be very interested to see the first time Verstappen and Leclerc go head to head in anything like competitive machinery.


Yeah I was watching the Alonso Leclerc battle onboard with Alonso, albeit with very bad quality video. Leclerc just always got a good drive out of the final sequence of corners so Alonso was never able to stay close enough to make the pass at turn one. He didn't have to resort to Verstappen like tactics though because Alonso was never close enough. He just made no mistakes in S3.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 4:49 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Glasnost wrote:
How much longer does RoGro have on his contract?

Hass really needs to look at someone else.
But who are realistic prospects for the seat?
I'd be hesitant to promote Kmag to lead driver with his attitude and reputation he's building.

Perez

Vandorne - surely won't last another season at McLaren unless he improves big time.

Leclerc - maybe convince Ferrari to put him in the Hass to see what he can do at the pointy end of the mid field?

Hartley- if he gets the boot from STR?

For me, Leclerc is a no-brainer if they can make it happen. I think he's a very talented young driver; the second best F1 driver under 25 behind only Max IMO. Makes sense for Ferrari too. It's still a bit early for Leclerc to be considered for a Ferrari seat but a couple of years in a solid midfield car (that's what Haas have produced every year of their existence) should prepare him quite well and give Ferrari plenty of opportunity to assess his abilities.

Perez would probably look at Haas as a lateral move and Vandoorne really hasn't shown much of a spark in F1. He seems relatively solid but unspectacular. Yes, he's up against Alonso as a teammate and yes, there are some races where they don't run identical machinery. He has #2 status clearly but he still has plenty of opportunities to make something happen and he really hasn't yet. I think Alonso has outqualified him something like 8 straight times. It's just not impressive at all.



I couldn't agree more about Vandoorne. He is just so...bland? I can't believe many pundits were touting him as the next big thing before he came to F1.

I think being paired with Alonso is a nightmare for any young driver. Vandoorne could be very good but Alonso is just super impressive, particularly in below-par machinery. I also think he's one of the best qualifiers on the grid, with the potential to be THE best, so losing out to him there is no shame.

But yes, while I think being hammered by Alonso does not make a driver bad, it does suggest that maybe he's no better than good and perhaps not all that special, if that makes sense



I remember a driver that did just fine as a rookie against an Alonso at his peak. It's OK to be beat by Alonso, but Vandoorne is simply nowhere compared to Alonso. If he were close, it'd be acceptable. But that's not a case.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 6:17 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Glasnost wrote:
How much longer does RoGro have on his contract?

Hass really needs to look at someone else.
But who are realistic prospects for the seat?
I'd be hesitant to promote Kmag to lead driver with his attitude and reputation he's building.

Perez

Vandorne - surely won't last another season at McLaren unless he improves big time.

Leclerc - maybe convince Ferrari to put him in the Hass to see what he can do at the pointy end of the mid field?

Hartley- if he gets the boot from STR?

For me, Leclerc is a no-brainer if they can make it happen. I think he's a very talented young driver; the second best F1 driver under 25 behind only Max IMO. Makes sense for Ferrari too. It's still a bit early for Leclerc to be considered for a Ferrari seat but a couple of years in a solid midfield car (that's what Haas have produced every year of their existence) should prepare him quite well and give Ferrari plenty of opportunity to assess his abilities.

Perez would probably look at Haas as a lateral move and Vandoorne really hasn't shown much of a spark in F1. He seems relatively solid but unspectacular. Yes, he's up against Alonso as a teammate and yes, there are some races where they don't run identical machinery. He has #2 status clearly but he still has plenty of opportunities to make something happen and he really hasn't yet. I think Alonso has outqualified him something like 8 straight times. It's just not impressive at all.



I couldn't agree more about Vandoorne. He is just so...bland? I can't believe many pundits were touting him as the next big thing before he came to F1.

I think being paired with Alonso is a nightmare for any young driver. Vandoorne could be very good but Alonso is just super impressive, particularly in below-par machinery. I also think he's one of the best qualifiers on the grid, with the potential to be THE best, so losing out to him there is no shame.

But yes, while I think being hammered by Alonso does not make a driver bad, it does suggest that maybe he's no better than good and perhaps not all that special, if that makes sense



I remember a driver that did just fine as a rookie against an Alonso at his peak. It's OK to be beat by Alonso, but Vandoorne is simply nowhere compared to Alonso. If he were close, it'd be acceptable. But that's not a case.


Yes. What was really shocking to me is that at the last race alonso had a damaged car and he still was 0.5 sec faster than vandoorne during the race, from what I read on another forum. He might be an average level driver but he cannot be called “very good” imo.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 7:03 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Glasnost wrote:
How much longer does RoGro have on his contract?

Hass really needs to look at someone else.
But who are realistic prospects for the seat?
I'd be hesitant to promote Kmag to lead driver with his attitude and reputation he's building.

Perez

Vandorne - surely won't last another season at McLaren unless he improves big time.

Leclerc - maybe convince Ferrari to put him in the Hass to see what he can do at the pointy end of the mid field?

Hartley- if he gets the boot from STR?

For me, Leclerc is a no-brainer if they can make it happen. I think he's a very talented young driver; the second best F1 driver under 25 behind only Max IMO. Makes sense for Ferrari too. It's still a bit early for Leclerc to be considered for a Ferrari seat but a couple of years in a solid midfield car (that's what Haas have produced every year of their existence) should prepare him quite well and give Ferrari plenty of opportunity to assess his abilities.

Perez would probably look at Haas as a lateral move and Vandoorne really hasn't shown much of a spark in F1. He seems relatively solid but unspectacular. Yes, he's up against Alonso as a teammate and yes, there are some races where they don't run identical machinery. He has #2 status clearly but he still has plenty of opportunities to make something happen and he really hasn't yet. I think Alonso has outqualified him something like 8 straight times. It's just not impressive at all.



I couldn't agree more about Vandoorne. He is just so...bland? I can't believe many pundits were touting him as the next big thing before he came to F1.

I think being paired with Alonso is a nightmare for any young driver. Vandoorne could be very good but Alonso is just super impressive, particularly in below-par machinery. I also think he's one of the best qualifiers on the grid, with the potential to be THE best, so losing out to him there is no shame.

But yes, while I think being hammered by Alonso does not make a driver bad, it does suggest that maybe he's no better than good and perhaps not all that special, if that makes sense



I remember a driver that did just fine as a rookie against an Alonso at his peak. It's OK to be beat by Alonso, but Vandoorne is simply nowhere compared to Alonso. If he were close, it'd be acceptable. But that's not a case.

I happen to think it's easier for a driver to be closer to a better driver when they have a good car than when the car is a handful. And the 2007 McLaren was a very good car.

But the driver you're referring to is also one of the outstanding drivers today, so doesn't really disprove my point. Vandoorne may be good, but nothing special. Point I'm trying to make is it doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad driver, but any claim to future greatness is being sorely tested by his performances against Alonso


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 7:17 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Glasnost wrote:
How much longer does RoGro have on his contract?

Hass really needs to look at someone else.
But who are realistic prospects for the seat?
I'd be hesitant to promote Kmag to lead driver with his attitude and reputation he's building.

Perez

Vandorne - surely won't last another season at McLaren unless he improves big time.

Leclerc - maybe convince Ferrari to put him in the Hass to see what he can do at the pointy end of the mid field?

Hartley- if he gets the boot from STR?

For me, Leclerc is a no-brainer if they can make it happen. I think he's a very talented young driver; the second best F1 driver under 25 behind only Max IMO. Makes sense for Ferrari too. It's still a bit early for Leclerc to be considered for a Ferrari seat but a couple of years in a solid midfield car (that's what Haas have produced every year of their existence) should prepare him quite well and give Ferrari plenty of opportunity to assess his abilities.

Perez would probably look at Haas as a lateral move and Vandoorne really hasn't shown much of a spark in F1. He seems relatively solid but unspectacular. Yes, he's up against Alonso as a teammate and yes, there are some races where they don't run identical machinery. He has #2 status clearly but he still has plenty of opportunities to make something happen and he really hasn't yet. I think Alonso has outqualified him something like 8 straight times. It's just not impressive at all.



I couldn't agree more about Vandoorne. He is just so...bland? I can't believe many pundits were touting him as the next big thing before he came to F1.

I think being paired with Alonso is a nightmare for any young driver. Vandoorne could be very good but Alonso is just super impressive, particularly in below-par machinery. I also think he's one of the best qualifiers on the grid, with the potential to be THE best, so losing out to him there is no shame.

But yes, while I think being hammered by Alonso does not make a driver bad, it does suggest that maybe he's no better than good and perhaps not all that special, if that makes sense



I remember a driver that did just fine as a rookie against an Alonso at his peak. It's OK to be beat by Alonso, but Vandoorne is simply nowhere compared to Alonso. If he were close, it'd be acceptable. But that's not a case.



It's hard to judge. So much more is expected of rookies now but in reality they almost never outscore experienced team mate. Bottas is the only current driver to do it.

Kimi's rookie year was considered extremely good and enough to get him straight into a top seat. He was beaten by Heidfeld. Ocon had a pretty similar season against a similar driver and is written off as average.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 7:53 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Kimi's rookie year was considered extremely good and enough to get him straight into a top seat. He was beaten by Heidfeld. Ocon had a pretty similar season against a similar driver and is written off as average.

I don't really think Perez and Heidfeld are all that similar, tbh. But otherwise I agree that people expect too much of rookies, and are too eager to make a sweeping judgment about their ability and potential within their first season.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 7:55 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Kimi's rookie year was considered extremely good and enough to get him straight into a top seat. He was beaten by Heidfeld. Ocon had a pretty similar season against a similar driver and is written off as average.

I don't really think Perez and Heidfeld are all that similar, tbh. But otherwise I agree that people expect too much of rookies, and are too eager to make a sweeping judgment about their ability and potential within their first season.


I think 2nd season Heidelfd is probably similar to Perez now.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:07 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
I remember a driver that did just fine as a rookie against an Alonso at his peak. It's OK to be beat by Alonso, but Vandoorne is simply nowhere compared to Alonso. If he were close, it'd be acceptable. But that's not a case.

I happen to think it's easier for a driver to be closer to a better driver when they have a good car than when the car is a handful. And the 2007 McLaren was a very good car.

But the driver you're referring to is also one of the outstanding drivers today, so doesn't really disprove my point. Vandoorne may be good, but nothing special. Point I'm trying to make is it doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad driver, but any claim to future greatness is being sorely tested by his performances against Alonso



I take your point. I don't mind the fact he's losing to Alonso, what bothers me is the fashion he's losing in. He don't have a single great performance that I point to. Even in bad cars, good drivers have flashes of brilliance. He may not be a LH, which is fine, but he isn't even showing he's a Bottas. Which is the problem here.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:09 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
I remember a driver that did just fine as a rookie against an Alonso at his peak. It's OK to be beat by Alonso, but Vandoorne is simply nowhere compared to Alonso. If he were close, it'd be acceptable. But that's not a case.



It's hard to judge. So much more is expected of rookies now but in reality they almost never outscore experienced team mate. Bottas is the only current driver to do it.

Kimi's rookie year was considered extremely good and enough to get him straight into a top seat. He was beaten by Heidfeld. Ocon had a pretty similar season against a similar driver and is written off as average.


As I mentioned in my previous post, KR showed flashes of brilliance. I remember when he joined and I knew he'd do great. Even though he lost to NH. You can always tell a driver is good, even if stats tell otherwise. Vandoorne is a literal waffle. Very uninspiring driver.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:14 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Zoue wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
I remember a driver that did just fine as a rookie against an Alonso at his peak. It's OK to be beat by Alonso, but Vandoorne is simply nowhere compared to Alonso. If he were close, it'd be acceptable. But that's not a case.

I happen to think it's easier for a driver to be closer to a better driver when they have a good car than when the car is a handful. And the 2007 McLaren was a very good car.

But the driver you're referring to is also one of the outstanding drivers today, so doesn't really disprove my point. Vandoorne may be good, but nothing special. Point I'm trying to make is it doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad driver, but any claim to future greatness is being sorely tested by his performances against Alonso



I take your point. I don't mind the fact he's losing to Alonso, what bothers me is the fashion he's losing in. He don't have a single great performance that I point to. Even in bad cars, good drivers have flashes of brilliance. He may not be a LH, which is fine, but he isn't even showing he's a Bottas. Which is the problem here.


That's probably an unfair comparison. Bottas is lucky to have a great car and a more changeable teammate than Alonso. Great as Lewis is, he has weeks, months off... Which is a boon for any teammate. Alonso does not have many off days... if at all. And they have a crap car in which it is very difficult to shine. Not the same case.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:29 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
I remember a driver that did just fine as a rookie against an Alonso at his peak. It's OK to be beat by Alonso, but Vandoorne is simply nowhere compared to Alonso. If he were close, it'd be acceptable. But that's not a case.



It's hard to judge. So much more is expected of rookies now but in reality they almost never outscore experienced team mate. Bottas is the only current driver to do it.

Kimi's rookie year was considered extremely good and enough to get him straight into a top seat. He was beaten by Heidfeld. Ocon had a pretty similar season against a similar driver and is written off as average.


As I mentioned in my previous post, KR showed flashes of brilliance. I remember when he joined and I knew he'd do great. Even though he lost to NH. You can always tell a driver is good, even if stats tell otherwise. Vandoorne is a literal waffle. Very uninspiring driver.


I agree he's been disappointing.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:44 pm 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Zoue wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
I remember a driver that did just fine as a rookie against an Alonso at his peak. It's OK to be beat by Alonso, but Vandoorne is simply nowhere compared to Alonso. If he were close, it'd be acceptable. But that's not a case.

I happen to think it's easier for a driver to be closer to a better driver when they have a good car than when the car is a handful. And the 2007 McLaren was a very good car.

But the driver you're referring to is also one of the outstanding drivers today, so doesn't really disprove my point. Vandoorne may be good, but nothing special. Point I'm trying to make is it doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad driver, but any claim to future greatness is being sorely tested by his performances against Alonso



I take your point. I don't mind the fact he's losing to Alonso, what bothers me is the fashion he's losing in. He don't have a single great performance that I point to. Even in bad cars, good drivers have flashes of brilliance. He may not be a LH, which is fine, but he isn't even showing he's a Bottas. Which is the problem here.


That's probably an unfair comparison. Bottas is lucky to have a great car and a more changeable teammate than Alonso. Great as Lewis is, he has weeks, months off... Which is a boon for any teammate. Alonso does not have many off days... if at all. And they have a crap car in which it is very difficult to shine. Not the same case.

The thing is though, Bottas has never been responsible for his own retirement in any race over his whole career. And even from the stewards verdicts, he hasn't been responsible for anyone else’s either. Vandoorne had 2 very clumsy moments which forced him to retire last year. Bottas may not have had that many outstanding drives in his early career, but he never made really big errors which is one thing that I think is certainly better about him. He's more solid and certainly more consistent in my view. And given the hype about Vandoorne, I personally think he hasn't really performed very well yet in his career. He's decent but doesn't look that good to me. But things could change.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:10 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Zoue wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
I remember a driver that did just fine as a rookie against an Alonso at his peak. It's OK to be beat by Alonso, but Vandoorne is simply nowhere compared to Alonso. If he were close, it'd be acceptable. But that's not a case.

I happen to think it's easier for a driver to be closer to a better driver when they have a good car than when the car is a handful. And the 2007 McLaren was a very good car.

But the driver you're referring to is also one of the outstanding drivers today, so doesn't really disprove my point. Vandoorne may be good, but nothing special. Point I'm trying to make is it doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad driver, but any claim to future greatness is being sorely tested by his performances against Alonso



I take your point. I don't mind the fact he's losing to Alonso, what bothers me is the fashion he's losing in. He don't have a single great performance that I point to. Even in bad cars, good drivers have flashes of brilliance. He may not be a LH, which is fine, but he isn't even showing he's a Bottas. Which is the problem here.


That's probably an unfair comparison. Bottas is lucky to have a great car and a more changeable teammate than Alonso. Great as Lewis is, he has weeks, months off... Which is a boon for any teammate. Alonso does not have many off days... if at all. And they have a crap car in which it is very difficult to shine. Not the same case.

The thing is though, Bottas has never been responsible for his own retirement in any race over his whole career. And even from the stewards verdicts, he hasn't been responsible for anyone else’s either. Vandoorne had 2 very clumsy moments which forced him to retire last year. Bottas may not have had that many outstanding drives in his early career, but he never made really big errors which is one thing that I think is certainly better about him. He's more solid and certainly more consistent in my view. And given the hype about Vandoorne, I personally think he hasn't really performed very well yet in his career. He's decent but doesn't look that good to me. But things could change.


It's why you really can't make any claims about Norris before actually seeing him in F1.

Hulkenberg is another. Tip top junior career but never quite hit the heights in F1.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:23 pm 
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Grosjean and Magnussen are both clearly faster than the likes of Hartley, Ericsson, Sirotkin, Stroll, Wehrlein, Rossi, etc. - and most of them make as much mistakes as Grosjean does. Whether Vandoorne or Gasly would be a match for Grosjean is unlcear at best as well - too early to tell.

Grosjean is somewhat like Massa - very fast on his day in the right car, but inconsistent and mistake-prone even now he gained a lot of experience. Massa won lots of races and nearly the championship - and in the right cars with the right teammates Grosjean could do the same. Just imagine Lotus becoming a really rich team in 2012/2013 and being able to further develop their form ...

You may like his attitude or not, but Magnussen is a very fast driver, especially if he can get rid of his off-periods through a season.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:33 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
For me, Leclerc is a no-brainer if they can make it happen. I think he's a very talented young driver; the second best F1 driver under 25 behind only Max IMO.

Why behind Max, necessarily? Is there any objective measure that implies Max is better? He's certainly more experienced at the F1 level by now, but Leclerc has an equivalent or better junior record (considering Max basically has no junior record) and has started to completely dominate his experienced teammate lately.

Verstappen defeated Leclerc in karting in 2013 I believe?

In my opinion, Verstappen has better racecraft than Leclerc. They are both very fast (difficult to compare their speed), but Max just has an extra gear when he’s overtaking or defending. Take nothing away from Leclerc, he’s a great driver, but I think that Max is even better.

Verstappen, Leclerc and Norris will dominate the sport after Vettel and Hamilton retire in 2020.


It's waay to early for me to comment on Leclerc vs Verstappen. Especially in regards to race craft... Leclerc had what 6 races now? In a mostly back marker car.
Put him in the Hass and ask me at the end of the season.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:43 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Grosjean and Magnussen are both clearly faster than the likes of Hartley, Ericsson, Sirotkin, Stroll, Wehrlein, Rossi, etc. - and most of them make as much mistakes as Grosjean does. Whether Vandoorne or Gasly would be a match for Grosjean is unlcear at best as well - too early to tell.

Grosjean is somewhat like Massa - very fast on his day in the right car, but inconsistent and mistake-prone even now he gained a lot of experience. Massa won lots of races and nearly the championship - and in the right cars with the right teammates Grosjean could do the same. Just imagine Lotus becoming a really rich team in 2012/2013 and being able to further develop their form ...

You may like his attitude or not, but Magnussen is a very fast driver, especially if he can get rid of his off-periods through a season.


Agree 100%. Grosjean has talent, so does Mag, but they are both nut cases.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:49 am 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Zoue wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
I remember a driver that did just fine as a rookie against an Alonso at his peak. It's OK to be beat by Alonso, but Vandoorne is simply nowhere compared to Alonso. If he were close, it'd be acceptable. But that's not a case.

I happen to think it's easier for a driver to be closer to a better driver when they have a good car than when the car is a handful. And the 2007 McLaren was a very good car.

But the driver you're referring to is also one of the outstanding drivers today, so doesn't really disprove my point. Vandoorne may be good, but nothing special. Point I'm trying to make is it doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad driver, but any claim to future greatness is being sorely tested by his performances against Alonso



I take your point. I don't mind the fact he's losing to Alonso, what bothers me is the fashion he's losing in. He don't have a single great performance that I point to. Even in bad cars, good drivers have flashes of brilliance. He may not be a LH, which is fine, but he isn't even showing he's a Bottas. Which is the problem here.


That's probably an unfair comparison. Bottas is lucky to have a great car and a more changeable teammate than Alonso. Great as Lewis is, he has weeks, months off... Which is a boon for any teammate. Alonso does not have many off days... if at all. And they have a crap car in which it is very difficult to shine. Not the same case.


Bottas was clearly regarded as a good driver even before he got the Mercedes seat. He had never been beaten or outqualified by a teammate and he had to face Massa and Maldonado, both guys who are not exactly slow. I think it's a good comparison. Bottas > Vandoorne for me.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:05 am 
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Give GRO a fast car and he causes T1 (T3 in this case) accidents.
Give him a slow car and he can't drive around it.
In either case, he's simply not consistent enough to have in the car.

(I am being harsh... who wouldn't've reacted to KMag's car losing grip in front? Suddenly lift off mid corner and the car won't like it... but I can't help but feel that his trying to spin it was overly one of frustrated ambition than one of concern or at least awareness that he was in a pack of cars).

If we're on KMag as well, IMHO he is just fulfilling the dangerous driving he showed in his first year at McL. (IIRC SPa he forced ALO, BUT and RAI (? possibly not, a third driver anyway) off track with very questionable moves.

Haas should give Alonso the 'white ferrari' and then the results would come! *cheeky grin*

Have fun :)

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 3:04 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Grosjean and Magnussen are both clearly faster than the likes of Hartley, Ericsson, Sirotkin, Stroll, Wehrlein, Rossi, etc. - and most of them make as much mistakes as Grosjean does. Whether Vandoorne or Gasly would be a match for Grosjean is unlcear at best as well - too early to tell.

Grosjean is somewhat like Massa - very fast on his day in the right car, but inconsistent and mistake-prone even now he gained a lot of experience. Massa won lots of races and nearly the championship - and in the right cars with the right teammates Grosjean could do the same. Just imagine Lotus becoming a really rich team in 2012/2013 and being able to further develop their form ...

You may like his attitude or not, but Magnussen is a very fast driver, especially if he can get rid of his off-periods through a season.


RoGro made the Lotus sing. He had a fairy cakes start yesterday. The week before he was sitting 6th when he bumped a switch and knocked himself out. Then there was the wheel nut. If he can pull it together once, I think he could have a great season.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 3:42 am 
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Shia Luck wrote:
If we're on KMag as well, IMHO he is just fulfilling the dangerous driving he showed in his first year at McL. (IIRC SPa he forced ALO, BUT and RAI (? possibly not, a third driver anyway) off track with very questionable moves.

Totally agree about this. I've thought he was a dangerous driver since 2014, but somehow that all seems to have been forgotten until last year. Hulk called him the most unsporting driver in F1, and while I think it's close between him and Verstappen, at least with Max he makes up for it by being obviously good in other areas.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 4:49 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Shia Luck wrote:
If we're on KMag as well, IMHO he is just fulfilling the dangerous driving he showed in his first year at McL. (IIRC SPa he forced ALO, BUT and RAI (? possibly not, a third driver anyway) off track with very questionable moves.

Totally agree about this. I've thought he was a dangerous driver since 2014, but somehow that all seems to have been forgotten until last year. Hulk called him the most unsporting driver in F1, and while I think it's close between him and Verstappen, at least with Max he makes up for it by being obviously good in other areas.


Max doesn't try and deliberately put people in the wall at 200 mph. He's reckless but it's not the same as going out to try and shunt your opponent.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:50 am 
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ptr250 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Grosjean and Magnussen are both clearly faster than the likes of Hartley, Ericsson, Sirotkin, Stroll, Wehrlein, Rossi, etc. - and most of them make as much mistakes as Grosjean does. Whether Vandoorne or Gasly would be a match for Grosjean is unlcear at best as well - too early to tell.

Grosjean is somewhat like Massa - very fast on his day in the right car, but inconsistent and mistake-prone even now he gained a lot of experience. Massa won lots of races and nearly the championship - and in the right cars with the right teammates Grosjean could do the same. Just imagine Lotus becoming a really rich team in 2012/2013 and being able to further develop their form ...

You may like his attitude or not, but Magnussen is a very fast driver, especially if he can get rid of his off-periods through a season.


RoGro made the Lotus sing. He had a fairy cakes start yesterday. The week before he was sitting 6th when he bumped a switch and knocked himself out. Then there was the wheel nut. If he can pull it together once, I think he could have a great season.


Grosjean's 2013 performances in the Lotus maybe somewhat overrated. It was a very good car, and Raikkonen was beating him handily until he stopped getting paid regularly. In many races it was the second best package behind Red Bull.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:05 pm 
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Shia Luck wrote:
Give GRO a fast car and he causes T1 (T3 in this case) accidents.
Give him a slow car and he can't drive around it.
In either case, he's simply not consistent enough to have in the car.

(I am being harsh... who wouldn't've reacted to KMag's car losing grip in front? Suddenly lift off mid corner and the car won't like it... but I can't help but feel that his trying to spin it was overly one of frustrated ambition than one of concern or at least awareness that he was in a pack of cars).

If we're on KMag as well, IMHO he is just fulfilling the dangerous driving he showed in his first year at McL. (IIRC SPa he forced ALO, BUT and RAI (? possibly not, a third driver anyway) off track with very questionable moves.

Haas should give Alonso the 'white ferrari' and then the results would come! *cheeky grin*

Have fun :)

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:14 pm 
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At the beginning I thought RoGro was a decent choice to bring a first year team to the grid and I believe he actually did a good job that year. The problem is that the car is getting better and Romain isn't. KMag I think is an overall better driver IMO, and definitely better than the one he replaced, but has his own set of problems.

I believe that RoGro is in the 3rd year of a 3 year contract so I wouldn't be surprised if Leclerc didn't take Grojeans place next year if his trajectory continues as it has through these first few races. Although I could see a Perez/Ocon type team dynamic between him and KMag.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:30 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Glasnost wrote:
How much longer does RoGro have on his contract?

Hass really needs to look at someone else.
But who are realistic prospects for the seat?
I'd be hesitant to promote Kmag to lead driver with his attitude and reputation he's building.

Perez

Vandorne - surely won't last another season at McLaren unless he improves big time.

Leclerc - maybe convince Ferrari to put him in the Hass to see what he can do at the pointy end of the mid field?

Hartley- if he gets the boot from STR?

For me, Leclerc is a no-brainer if they can make it happen. I think he's a very talented young driver; the second best F1 driver under 25 behind only Max IMO. Makes sense for Ferrari too. It's still a bit early for Leclerc to be considered for a Ferrari seat but a couple of years in a solid midfield car (that's what Haas have produced every year of their existence) should prepare him quite well and give Ferrari plenty of opportunity to assess his abilities.

Perez would probably look at Haas as a lateral move and Vandoorne really hasn't shown much of a spark in F1. He seems relatively solid but unspectacular. Yes, he's up against Alonso as a teammate and yes, there are some races where they don't run identical machinery. He has #2 status clearly but he still has plenty of opportunities to make something happen and he really hasn't yet. I think Alonso has outqualified him something like 8 straight times. It's just not impressive at all.



I couldn't agree more about Vandoorne. He is just so...bland? I can't believe many pundits were touting him as the next big thing before he came to F1.

I think being paired with Alonso is a nightmare for any young driver. Vandoorne could be very good but Alonso is just super impressive, particularly in below-par machinery. I also think he's one of the best qualifiers on the grid, with the potential to be THE best, so losing out to him there is no shame.

But yes, while I think being hammered by Alonso does not make a driver bad, it does suggest that maybe he's no better than good and perhaps not all that special, if that makes sense



I remember a driver that did just fine as a rookie against an Alonso at his peak. It's OK to be beat by Alonso, but Vandoorne is simply nowhere compared to Alonso. If he were close, it'd be acceptable. But that's not a case.


Alonso is at his peak now and for that to be a fair comparison you'd really have to take away most of Lewis's mileage in an F1 car before debut and have the match up at Renault on Michelin tyres instead. That's more like what Vandoorne's dealing with here.

Stoff's no Lewis, that much is clear but he's up against a tougher situation car and team wise to be fair.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:36 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Max doesn't try and deliberately put people in the wall at 200 mph. He's reckless but it's not the same as going out to try and shunt your opponent.
No, just into the Armco... Kemmel, anyone?

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:38 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Max doesn't try and deliberately put people in the wall at 200 mph. He's reckless but it's not the same as going out to try and shunt your opponent.
No, just into the Armco... Kemmel, anyone?


He didn't push anyone into the Armco on the Kemmel straight.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:43 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Max doesn't try and deliberately put people in the wall at 200 mph. He's reckless but it's not the same as going out to try and shunt your opponent.
No, just into the Armco... Kemmel, anyone?


He didn't push anyone into the Armco on the Kemmel straight.
Only because some drivers want to complete their races on track instead of in the hospital brain scanner.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:45 pm 
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The thing about Grosjean is that he never really seems to learn, every mistake it seems comes with an excuse, he's adamant that even if he hadn't lit up the rear tyres he would have ended up spinning the car into the middle of the pack contrary to expert opinion, also he leaves out the fog he left which made it twice as hard to avoid his errant car.

He's a very experienced F1 driver now also he is in his 30's, time for making numerous dumb mistakes has to be over and let's not forget that he's like Bambi on ice whenever it rains.

If Leclerc continues on with the impressive performances then I would take a punt on him to replace Grosjean this surely would come with the blessing of Ferrari, I know that Haas like to choose their own drivers especially after not being impressed with Ferrari lumbering them with Guttierrez, but Gutierrez in part was very much a pay driver whereas Leclerc is there clearly on talent, I think Haas wouldn't be too unhappy with having Leclerc on board?

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:50 pm 
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And then there's the fact that Haas was thinking about giving Pietro Fitipaldi a test before he broke both legs at Spa. The team definitely have their eyes open for their next driver.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 3:13 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
And then there's the fact that Haas was thinking about giving Pietro Fitipaldi a test before he broke both legs at Spa. The team definitely have their eyes open for their next driver.

I would be thinking that Fittipaldi would have been paying for that privilege, let's not forget that they have also tested the talent that is Ferucci maybe because he happens to be American?

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:43 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Max doesn't try and deliberately put people in the wall at 200 mph. He's reckless but it's not the same as going out to try and shunt your opponent.
No, just into the Armco... Kemmel, anyone?


He didn't push anyone into the Armco on the Kemmel straight.
Only because some drivers want to complete their races on track instead of in the hospital brain scanner.


Well not really. He never tried to run someone into the Armco.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:17 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Max doesn't try and deliberately put people in the wall at 200 mph. He's reckless but it's not the same as going out to try and shunt your opponent.
No, just into the Armco... Kemmel, anyone?


He didn't push anyone into the Armco on the Kemmel straight.
Only because some drivers want to complete their races on track instead of in the hospital brain scanner.


Well not really. He never tried to run someone into the Armco.
I have to admit that's true. He's quite content to have them smash into the rear of his car.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:27 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Well not really. He never tried to run someone into the Armco.
I have to admit that's true. He's quite content to have them smash into the rear of his car.[/quote]

So not the same thing at all. The main difference being intent. Verstappen doesn't want anyone to ram the back of his car. Magnussen intended to put Gasly in the wall at nearly 200mph.

You'd think if Verstappen did as much bad fairy cakes as people make out you wouldn't need to make stuff up or exaggerate.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:06 pm 
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Lets not forget this is the grosjean thread, lets stay focused on the main topic

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 11:56 pm 
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Mod Titanium wrote:
Lets not forget this is the grosjean thread, lets stay focused on the main topic


Quick, someone make a KMag thread. ;)

This does seem to have turned into a who will replace GRO thread tho in one sense so I hope I am still on topic.

How about Lando Norris? I think McL might try something different with him rather than their usual dropping them straight into a McL and world champion performance expectations.. It might have worked with Lewis but it hasn't worked since.

He'd be a easy sell to a lower team for a year's learning and while Haas have shown resistance to taking Ferrari drivers, that might be PR to drop the 'Ferrari B team' moniker, in which case taking a McL young driver for a year would acheive their aims. Thoughts?

*Re-reading* .. ok maybe that's just another tangent... GRo's crash record is beyond dispute tho and for a team trying to develop their car on what is presumably a long term project (in that Haas are too experienced in motorsport to expect wonders , yet they acheive them), Surely they need a driver with good feedback and consistency above one who might be fast if he feels happy with the car and if he survives lap 1, no?

He gained massive kudos for his team leadership in Australia, but tbh, I wondered why he got a second shot at F1 and think the fact Eric Boullier is his manager might have had something more to do with it than his ability. The mystery for me is why Haas appear happy with him.

Have fun :)

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